Twatsky's Europa Speakers -- Well-designed by Madisound! [Archive]

The Devil

October 6th 03, 08:45 PM

Greg whined:

>Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
>my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
>anonymice.

BWAHAHAHA! More of that control-freakery there, Greg. 'You don't get
to comment', indeed. If only. Hahaha! I'm afraid I'll comment on
whatever I like, thank you very much.

And of course, let's not forget that my comments were welcome when
they were favourable--just as dave's were welcome when *they* were
favourable!

Spoilt brat, Greg. That's what you are. With the mental age of a
four-year-old.

>You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:

I'm sorry, Mr Control Freak, but I won't follow your orders. If I want
to talk about your speakers, I will. You won't stop me. So'rry!

I'm afraid your control-freak attempts to deflect the conversation
away from the actual *topic* of discussion won't be successful,
either. None of the issues you have raised--my job, my family, my
name, my dick--have anything to do with your speakers. But I think
potential customers will find it instructional to consider the
subjects you chose to raise for your rebuttal.

BTW, I know *you* know you've lost the argument when you spin off on a
tangent like this. Are you so desperately terrified you can't address
the issues? No? Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Try to focus, now. The subject is your speakers. Not George, not me,
not Bob, not Arnii, not incest. Your speakers. Try to focus your reply
entirely on that subject. I bet you can't.

Thirty pounds overweight, indeed. LOL!

--
td

Lionel

October 6th 03, 09:02 PM

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:32 AM

The Devil wrote:
> Greg whined:
>
>
>>Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
>>my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
>>anonymice.
>
>
> BWAHAHAHA! More of that control-freakery there, Greg. 'You don't get
> to comment', indeed. If only. Hahaha! I'm afraid I'll comment on
> whatever I like, thank you very much.

You're welcome to try. We've been through this before--you've left the
group "permanently" three or four times now.

> And of course, let's not forget that my comments were welcome when
> they were favourable--just as dave's were welcome when *they* were
> favourable!

Yeah, that's an accurate assessment of the situation. You're really
reaching now.

> Spoilt brat, Greg. That's what you are. With the mental age of a
> four-year-old.

Really? That makes a Usenet anonmouse about -5! LOL!

>>You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:
>
>
> I'm sorry, Mr Control Freak, but I won't follow your orders. If I want
> to talk about your speakers, I will. You won't stop me. So'rry!

Again, Dev, we've been through this before, and you always back down.
Unfortunately, you've already spilled the beans: you did so with your
comments to Arny, about his ****ing his dead kid or whatever, and now
you've done so with me. You guys are all the same: you pretend like you
nice guys, right up until you're slapped in the face with your own
hypocrisy, and then you go ape ****. Meanwhile, *I'm* the one with the
guts to stick my neck out, have a legitimate identity, and have
legitimate audio topics to discuss.

> I'm afraid your control-freak attempts to deflect the conversation
> away from the actual *topic* of discussion won't be successful,

No, I think they will. You've become yet another anonymouse to be dealt
with, that's all.

> either. None of the issues you have raised--my job, my family, my
> name, my dick

????

--have anything to do with your speakers. But I think
> potential customers will find it instructional to consider the
> subjects you chose to raise for your rebuttal.

????

> BTW, I know *you* know you've lost the argument when you spin off on a
> tangent like this. Are you so desperately terrified you can't address
> the issues? No? Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
> won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
> the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now? Last time that
happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
you were toast. Are we going to go a few rounds again? I told you
once, Dev, I'm sick of your bull****. If you want to get tossed to the
canvas again, so be it. It DIGUSTS me to see you take the same line of
inquiry as Mickey McKelvey, btw.

> Try to focus, now.

That's my line. And I don't give anonymice the time of day, except in
rare cases when it amuses me.

The subject is your speakers. Not George, not me,
> not Bob, not Arnii, not incest. Your speakers. Try to focus your reply
> entirely on that subject. I bet you can't.
>
> Thirty pounds overweight, indeed. LOL!

How predictable. Where's your photo, anonymouse?

The Devil

October 7th 03, 12:45 AM

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

<snip>

I asked:

>> Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>> won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
>> the Europas' crossovers, will you?

>Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.

>Last time that
>happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
>you were toast.

Yes--you outed my gay son on Usenet. Very brave of you.

I've outed you as a fraud.

<snip>

--
td

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:58 AM

The Devil wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> I asked:
>
>
>>>Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>>>won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
>>>the Europas' crossovers, will you?
>>
>
>>Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?
>
>
> There you have it, folks.
>
> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>
> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
> hunch.

Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

>>Last time that
>>happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
>>you were toast.
>
>
> Yes--you outed my gay son on Usenet. Very brave of you.

But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

The Devil

October 7th 03, 01:13 AM

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:58:16 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>>>>Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>>>>won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
>>>>the Europas' crossovers, will you?
>>>
>>
>>>Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?
>>
>>
>> There you have it, folks.
>>
>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>
>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>> hunch.
>
>
>Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

>But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
>members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
>Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

OK--since you make the suggestion, my rules of engagement now limit
all our discussions to 'your' speaker design and Madisound, which is
what we're actually supposed to be talking about in any case. Let's
keep to the mother****ing legitimate audio discussion, shall we?

So off you go. First of all, tell us how much Madisound charged you to
design the crossover.

--
td

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 01:20 AM

trotsky said:

> But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
> members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
> Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

Since you brought it up, did you or did you not kill your father? Was
he or was he not named Laius? Did he or did he not rape Krooger years
ago?

I'd like to discuss this. Maybe "Dev" will too.

P.S. Note that "your" is the possessive pronoun and "you're" is a
contraction of "you are". It should be easy for you to remember that
an apostrophe represents only one of two things -- possession or
contraction. Or is that too complex a concept for a mother****ing
father-murderer like you?

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 02:12 AM

Lionel wrote:

>
> How can you imagine that Greg "Trotsky" Singh has already manufacture
> one speaker.
> Bob Morein was right Jupiter-Audio is a fake company !

I wish it was fake, but he's actually making speakers. Sad, really -
he could do it right as I suggested and learn how to do it correctly,
or he's in for months and possibly years(given his stubborn ego) of
hair-pulling and blaiming everyone in the world for his problems other
than a lack of serious knowledge.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 02:13 AM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> The Devil wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I asked:
>>
>>
>>>> Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>>>> won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
>>>> the Europas' crossovers, will you?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?
>>
>>
>>
>> There you have it, folks.
>>
>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>
>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>> hunch.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 02:33 AM

"The Devil" > wrote in message
news:q9v3ovs47ghn02pqrppdp49o1ju03qv4cj@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>>"The Devil" > wrote in message
>>news:obf3ovg357jcfa46n419es5ddl6qctbhov@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

>>> Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>>> won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they
>>> designed the Europas' crossovers, will you?

>> Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?

> There you have it, folks.

Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first posted:

From: "Michael Mckelvy" >
Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
Subject: Re: Trotsky, please listen to me.
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vlfpfvi7b9q34e%40corp.supernews.com

"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match through Madisound"

> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a hunch.

Most of us kinda figured it out a little over a month ago.

You're really a brilliant genius, aren't you Graham? It only took you a
month to figure this out after it was posted on RAO? LOL!

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 03:02 AM

trotsky wrote:

>> There you have it, folks.
>>
>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>
>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>> hunch.
>

Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets. Add a little stain
and presto. Yeesh. No wonder his prices are outrageous. He's
paying retail for their crappy Chinese made products instead of
buying them at 1/3 the cost directly from the manufacturer.

>
> Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.

Look at that frequency graph. That's terrible. The Madisound
woofers are good, though. Not as good as, say, the Morel MW168.
You could make a superb speaker with that driver without hardly
trying. The Seas H1208 is also a good driver, but at $65 each,
obviously more than the tightwad wants to spend. I bet he doesn't
even use high quality caps - probably cheaps out with the 20%
tolerance ones. Me? I'd search for 5% or better and pay the
extra $2-5 per cap - that's just me.

Better tweeter, btw, would be something like this:
Check out Fountek's JP 3.0 on the Madisound Page. It's staring
Trotsky right in the face, yet he passed on this superb driver... That
impedance and frequency graph - both really flat. If he HAD to have
a ribbon tweeter, this would have likely worked better.

Me - I'd not use it because it was made in China, but that doesn't
seem to bother Greg. He could use a nice ScanSpeak 2905/9300
or a Vifa MG27TG39-04 - both would be good less expensive choices.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 03:05 AM

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 03:09 AM

Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:

> So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
> I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
> their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.

Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

The Devil

October 7th 03, 03:31 AM

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

[snip--Greg didn't design the Europas]

>Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first posted:

>From: "Michael Mckelvy" >
>Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
>Subject: Re: Trotsky, please listen to me.
>Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700
>
>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vlfpfvi7b9q34e%40corp.supernews.com
>
>"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
>xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
>that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match through Madisound"

Yes, I saw this. But that was nothing more than duh-Mickey's rabid
conjecture. In his reply to my post, Greg blabbed something about
'privileged information', which I assume refers to a particular aspect
of a phone conversation we had some time ago.

>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>
>Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
>
>Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

Mickey guessed at that and got no answer. I felt certain Greg didn't
design the speakers, and when I mentioned it he replied in a manner
that suggested that guess was correct. He could only mean one thing by
'privileged information', but since that conversation was private, I'm
not going to disclose it.

You really should stick to molesting choir boys, Mr Christian.

--
td

trotsky

October 7th 03, 03:33 AM

The Devil wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:58:16 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>>>>Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
>>>>>won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
>>>>>the Europas' crossovers, will you?
>>>>
>>>>Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?
>>>
>>>
>>>There you have it, folks.
>>>
>>>Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>>
>>>And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>>>hunch.
>>
>>
>>Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.
>
>
> No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
> confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
> for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
> which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
> from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.
>
> That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
> designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
> drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.

>>But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
>>members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
>>Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.
>
>
> OK--since you make the suggestion, my rules of engagement now limit
> all our discussions to 'your' speaker design and Madisound, which is
> what we're actually supposed to be talking about in any case. Let's
> keep to the mother****ing legitimate audio discussion, shall we?

No, actually I was just trolling to give myself another chance to call
you an anonymous loser. Looks like you fell for it. Who'd you say was
the control freak? At least humor me with an explanation: what's your
pretend reason for being anonymous?

> So off you go. First of all, tell us how much Madisound charged you to
> design the crossover.

No, Dev. Every time I come on this group we talk about me. It gets old
after a while. I already told you to grow some ******** so you can talk
about yourself. How long is that going to take?

trotsky

October 7th 03, 03:34 AM

George M. Middius wrote:
>
> trotsky said:
>
>
>>But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
>>members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
>>Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.
>
>
> Since you brought it up, did you or did you not kill your father? Was
> he or was he not named Laius? Did he or did he not rape Krooger years
> ago?

George, you really, really need to be on medication. I'll bet even
Bruce Richman would agree.

> I'd like to discuss this. Maybe "Dev" will too.
>
>
> P.S. Note that "your" is the possessive pronoun and "you're" is a
> contraction of "you are". It should be easy for you to remember that
> an apostrophe represents only one of two things -- possession or
> contraction. Or is that too complex a concept for a mother****ing
> father-murderer like you?

Zzzz.

The Devil

October 7th 03, 03:38 AM

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:33:04 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>>>Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

>> No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
>> confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
>> for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
>> which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
>> from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

>> That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
>> designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
>> drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

>What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
>speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.

Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
no.

If your are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
be in it.

--
td

trotsky

October 7th 03, 03:43 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>> There you have it, folks.
>>>
>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>>
>>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>>> hunch.
>>
>>
>
> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.

I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?

trotsky

October 7th 03, 04:03 AM

The Devil wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:33:04 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>>>Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.
>>>
>
>
>>>No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
>>>confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
>>>for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
>>>which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
>>>from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.
>>
>
>
>>>That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
>>>designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
>>>drivers in. Am I right or am I right?
>>
>
>>What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
>>speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.
>
>
> Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
> no.

Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
reason to drink.

> If your

Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!

are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
> discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
> potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
> contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
> be in it.

You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

The Devil

October 7th 03, 04:08 AM

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:03:21 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>> Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
>> no.
>
>
>Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
>yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
>honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
>asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
> For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
>reason to drink.
>
>
>> If your
>
>
>Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!
>
>
> are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
>> discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
>> potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
>> contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
>> be in it.
>
>
>You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
>looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
>with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
>information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
crossovers. Thanks.

Any more questions, anyone?

--
td

The Devil

October 7th 03, 04:27 AM

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:43:37 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
>you have good taste in anything?

And the kitten, having tied itself up in the half-knitted cardigan, no
longer had the energy to be angry. Within seconds, it had fallen
asleep on its back.

--
td

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 07:58 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:
>
>
>>So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
>>I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
>>their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.
>
>
> Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
> accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 08:00 AM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> trotsky wrote:
>>
>>>> There you have it, folks.
>>>>
>>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>>>
>>>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>>>> hunch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>
>
>
> I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
> you have good taste in anything?
>

Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 08:02 AM

trotsky wrote:

> Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
> yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
> honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
> asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
> For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
> reason to drink.

Ooo - someone hit a nerve.

As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 11:49 AM

Obie Wanna Unclench His Bulldog Jaws said:

> > Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
> > accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

> Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
> old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
> science to make what he's using, afterall)

My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 12:05 PM

Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:

> >> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.

> > I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
> > you have good taste in anything?

> Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.

You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
"doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
(albeit an off-the-shelf one), which proved you WRONG.

Give the little sweathog his due: The speakers don't sound terrible
because they were "designed" by a qualified designer. If you want to
keep blasting him about the speakers, give up the "debating trade"
crap (like the slimy exchange about the cabinets). The fact is that
the speakers are based on a legitimate design, they look nice, and
they perform at least adequately. Maybe Gregipus did stumble on a
niche for potential success. As you know, the biggest fault found by
dave weil in his test drive is the lack of low bass. However, this
deficit is stated plainly on his Web site -- FR is given as 50-20000
Hz. Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a sub.

Maybe *you* think it's a ripoff because *you* love to tinker up to
your elbows. I'd say *you* are not in the demo on this one.

You need to revert to the one criticism you've made that's valid even
after the disclosure about Madisound: The speakers are overpriced.
Gregipus can legitimately argue that they perform comparably to other
$1300 speakers. You can legitimately counter that the justification
for such a large markup over cost is generally taken to be the trials
of R&D, which you know he didn't do. (Do you know that all small
speaker companies did a lot of costly R&D? No, of course you don't.)

If you don't want to make yourself into as much of an audio fool as
you are a politics fool, you need to come up with a new argument. Mine
is that trotsky is a whacked-out headcase and an arrogant asshole.
Nobody has been able to prove that one wrong. Maybe you should try it.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 12:10 PM

"The Devil" > wrote in message
news:un84ov04ck3598dm67kmfnekbs31fnsnho@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:

>>"The Devil" > wrote in message
>>news:q9v3ovs47ghn02pqrppdp49o1ju03qv4cj@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
[
>>Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

>>Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

>>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a hunch.

>>Most of us kinda figured it out a little over a month ago.

>>You're really a brilliant genius, aren't you Graham? It only took you a
month to figure this out after it was posted on RAO? LOL!

>> Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first
>> posted:

>> From: "Michael Mckelvy" >
>> Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
>> Subject: Re: Trotsky, please listen to me.
>> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700

>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vlfpfvi7b9q34e%40corp.supernews.com

>> "Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
>> modeling of xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker
>> cabinets, I would guess that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match
>> through Madisound"

> Yes, I saw this. But that was nothing more than duh-Mickey's rabid
> conjecture.

It was so *rabid* that it is now known to be 100% accurate!

LOL!

Graham, Singh had already confirmed part of it, and you didn't *get it*!

> In his reply to my post, Greg blabbed something about
> 'privileged information', which I assume refers to a particular aspect
> of a phone conversation we had some time ago.

Irrelevant to the fact that Mckelvy was 100% right. Graham, you're totally
insane to continue to insult him. You really ought to give the man his due.
This just shows how mentally spiritually and morally miniscule of a man you
really are.

>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

>> Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
>
>> Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

> Mickey guessed at that and got no answer.

Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true, such
as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us (but
apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.

> I felt certain Greg didn't
> design the speakers, and when I mentioned it he replied in a manner
> that suggested that guess was correct. He could only mean one thing by
> 'privileged information', but since that conversation was private, I'm
> not going to disclose it.

Graham, it was very clear to many of us that Singh was too technically
incompetent to actually design even a mediocre speaker. As usual you
dismissed our technically-informed comments. As usual you were wrong to
dismiss the comments of people who obviously understand these matters better
than you.

Ironically, now that *all* of the details of Mckelvy's analysis have been
proven to be true, you continue to diss him and his analysis.

It just shows once again what a flaming numskull you really are, Graham!

Even when the facts prove that Mckelvy was 100% right, you continue to
insult him.

BTW thanks Graham for admitting that you've been conspiring with Singh. Too
bad you've parted ways. You losers really need to stick together better than
this.

> You really should stick to molesting choir boys, Mr Christian.

Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that you've
always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil of your mind.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 12:11 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

>
> Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
> of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
> honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
> asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
> more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
> yourself a reason to drink.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

> You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
> looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
> with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
> information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 7th 03, 12:33 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...

> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that you've
> always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil of your mind.
>

You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic material
in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that wrote that.

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:50 PM

The Devil wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:03:21 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>>Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
>>>no.
>>
>>
>>Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
>>yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
>>honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
>>asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
>> For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
>>reason to drink.
>>
>>
>>
>>>If your
>>
>>
>>Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!
>>
>>
>> are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
>>
>>>discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
>>>potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
>>>contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
>>>be in it.
>>
>>
>>You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
>>looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
>>with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
>>information and you're a dead duck. Coward.
>
>
> I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
> crossovers. Thanks.
>
> Any more questions, anyone?

That's all you've got, Dev? How much longer till you crawl back to your
usual state of observing everything through an alcoholic haze?

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:51 PM

The Devil wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:43:37 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
>>you have good taste in anything?
>
>
> And the kitten, having tied itself up in the half-knitted cardigan, no
> longer had the energy to be angry. Within seconds, it had fallen
> asleep on its back.

And never has Zzzz been a more fitting reply. Let me guess, you come up
with the writing on the back of toothpaste containers for a living.

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:58 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
>
>>
>> Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:
>>
>>
>>> So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
>>> I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
>>> their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
>> accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?
>
>
> Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
> old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
> science to make what he's using, afterall)

Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
them. Be sure to include a Zobel network if necessary. If you can't do
it, could you please apologize to the group for being a liar and a
beatoff? TIA.

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:58 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>> trotsky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There you have it, folks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>>>>> hunch.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
>> do you have good taste in anything?
>>
>
> Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

Then you don't know dick about audio, Joe.

trotsky

October 7th 03, 12:59 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>
>> Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
>> of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
>> honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
>> asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
>> more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
>> yourself a reason to drink.
>
>
> Ooo - someone hit a nerve.
>
> As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.

True, because I'm not a cowardly, putrid anonymouse. Do you have a
website, Joe? I'd like to check it out, please.

trotsky

October 7th 03, 01:03 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
>>of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
>>honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
>>asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
>> more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
>>yourself a reason to drink.
>
>
> Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?
>
>
>>You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
>>looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
>>with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
>>information and you're a dead duck. Coward.
>
>
> Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

Fewer than you, Arny.

Lionel

October 7th 03, 01:14 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> trotsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
>>> of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
>>> honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
>>> asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
>>> more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
>>> yourself a reason to drink.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ooo - someone hit a nerve.
>>
>> As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.
>
>
>
> True, because I'm not a cowardly, putrid anonymouse. Do you have a
> website, Joe? I'd like to check it out, please.
>
>
How to find a nerve in a his fatty body ?

LOL !

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 01:58 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>

>>> Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing
>>> ashamed of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't
>>> about my being honest with dave, this is about you having another
>>> chance to be an asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and
>>> just drink some more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for
>>> you to give yourself a reason to drink.

>> Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

>>> You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
>>> looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you
>>> cower with your own personal details because all it takes is a
>>> tidbit of information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

>> Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

> Fewer than you, Arny.

I ain't the guy that was spilling my guts and giving proprietary info to
Graham the past few weeks, Singh. You are. You've known Graham for how many
years?

I figured out that Graham was a figurative street person with delusions of
grandeur within a few days of his first post here.

Why are you, facts and reason such strangers, Singh? While you're sharing
proprietary *secrets* with us, could you reveal which brand of *stupid*
pills you use?

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 01:59 PM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Obie Wanna Unclench His Bulldog Jaws said:
>
>>> Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
>>> accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?
>
>> Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
>> old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
>> science to make what he's using, afterall)
>
> My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

It rather obviously takes one to know one as well as you seem to, now. The
ironic part is that it takes you zombies so long to figure it out when it's
this obvious.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 02:01 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>> George M. Middius wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:
>>>
>>>
>>>> So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
>>>> I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
>>>> their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
>>> accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?
>>
>>
>> Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
>> old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
>> science to make what he's using, afterall)

> Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
> them.

First Greg, give us the URL of Joe's loudspeaker sales web site. You know,
the one like yours. As soon as you do that, your challenge might even be
relevant.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 02:21 PM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:

More childish name-calling from Middius. When will this little boy grow up?
He's pushing 40 it's said. How many 40-year-olds do you know who actually
talk like this in public?

>>>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.

>>> I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison.
>>> Joe, do you have good taste in anything?

>> Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

> You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.

Absolutely wrong, Middius. you just quoted Greg bragging about the quality
of his cabinetry. Do you read your own posts?

Same basic question as I posed to Greg, Middius. Why are you, truth and
reason such strangers?

> You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
> "doing the design",

Now known to be a correct hypothesis.

>and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
> would sound awful.

I don't seem to recall this ever happening. Perhaps this was posted in some
other rec.audio.opinion newsgroup?

LOL!

> Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
> contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
> (albeit an off-the-shelf one), which proved you WRONG.

Middius, you obviously don't know what the phrase "proven design" means.
Anybody who thinks that a Madisound LEAP-based analysis is anything but a
starting point has to be really ignorant. The shoe fits, doesn't it?

> Give the little sweathog his due: The speakers don't sound terrible
> because they were "designed" by a qualified designer.

This is so naive it's not even funny. A loudspeaker design has many
elements, and an theory and bench-measurement based design of a crossover
network is an incomplete part of just one of those elements. Most designers
would see it as a starting point, at best.

>If you want to
> keep blasting him about the speakers, give up the "debating trade"
> crap (like the slimy exchange about the cabinets).

The slime came from Singh. You should take this up with him not Oberlander.

>The fact is that
> the speakers are based on a legitimate design,

Wrong, for reasons already stated.

> they look nice,

The only part of this discussion you're even vaguely equipped to comment on,
Middius.

> and they perform at least adequately.

Change *adequate* to *mediocre* and you're probably closer to the truth.

> Maybe Gregipus did stumble on a niche for potential success.

Given the pitfalls of speaker design and marketing, Greg would do better
investing the money in lottery tickets.

> As you know, the biggest fault found by
> dave weil in his test drive is the lack of low bass.

As if Dave Weil can find *anything* but has-been speakers with busted
drivers at rock-bottom prices.

>However, this
> deficit is stated plainly on his Web site -- FR is given as 50-20000
> Hz.

Note that we now have Middius telling us that loudspeaker specs are
meaningful. Nobody should fail to notice his hypocrisy or fail to remind him
of it early and often.

>Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a sub.

Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a *real engineer* and a
*real marketing staff*.

> Maybe *you* think it's a ripoff because *you* love to tinker up to
> your elbows.

No, it has something to do with having a brain. Oberlander rather
consistently recommends commercial designs from respected manufacturers with
known and substantial technical and marketing assets.

> I'd say *you* are not in the demo on this one.

What demo? I notice that my challenge to Singh and Weil to produce a UPS (or
competitive vendor) tracking number for the shipment from Chicago to
Nashville went unanswered. No tracking number, no shipment. No shipment,
imaginary speakers.

> You need to revert to the one criticism you've made that's valid even
> after the disclosure about Madisound: The speakers are overpriced.

I think that's the gist of what everybody with a brain has been complaining
about.

> Gregipus can legitimately argue that they perform comparably to other
> $1300 speakers.

In this crowded competitive market it takes more than Singh's posturing and
profane weirdness (the man doesn't know how to argue decently!) to sell a
speaker.

>You can legitimately counter that the justification
> for such a large markup over cost is generally taken to be the trials
> of R&D, which you know he didn't do.

Several informed people made this accusation, which up until about 24 hours
ago was dismissed by people like Middius, Weil, Graham , etc.

> (Do you know that all small
> speaker companies did a lot of costly R&D? No, of course you don't.)

The ones that are successful and have technically-competent products didn't
get their designs for $40 from Madisound, that's for sure!

> If you don't want to make yourself into as much of an audio fool as
> you are a politics fool, you need to come up with a new argument.

As if you're anything but a posturing politics fool yourself, Middius.

> Mine is that trotsky is a whacked-out headcase and an arrogant asshole.

You forgot to add that along with Graham, Yustabe, Sockpuppet Wheel, and
Weil, you're quite a little group.

> Nobody has been able to prove that one wrong.

I think you tried to for several years before you saw the light, Middius.

>Maybe you should try it.

Been there, done that years and years ago.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 02:25 PM

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil
>> of your mind.

> You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
> material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that
> wrote that.

It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the pedophile
fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then, you try to
characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile fiction as itself
being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been asking the rest of your
clique: Why are you, and truth and reason such strangers?

tor b

October 7th 03, 03:00 PM

>More childish name-calling from Middius. When will this little boy grow up?
>He's pushing 40 it's said. How many 40-year-olds do you know who actually
>talk like this in public?

You da man, daddy!

>> You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
>> "doing the design",
>
>Now known to be a correct hypothesis.

You da man, scientist daddy!

>Middius, you obviously don't know what the phrase "proven design" means.
>Anybody who thinks that a Madisound LEAP-based analysis is anything but a
>starting point has to be really ignorant. The shoe fits, doesn't it?
>
>This is so naive it's not even funny. A loudspeaker design has many
>elements, and an theory and bench-measurement based design of a crossover
>network is an incomplete part of just one of those elements. Most designers
>would see it as a starting point, at best.
>
>The slime came from Singh. You should take this up with him not Oberlander.
>
>Wrong, for reasons already stated.
>
>The only part of this discussion you're even vaguely equipped to comment on,
>Middius.

Cause he's gay, right daddy?
>
>Change *adequate* to *mediocre* and you're probably closer to the truth.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Given the pitfalls of speaker design and marketing, Greg would do better
>investing the money in lottery tickets.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>As if Dave Weil can find *anything* but has-been speakers with busted
>drivers at rock-bottom prices.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Note that we now have Middius telling us that loudspeaker specs are
>meaningful. Nobody should fail to notice his hypocrisy or fail to remind him
>of it early and often.

We'll do it, daddy!
>

>> I'd say *you* are not in the demo on this one.
>
>What demo? I notice that my challenge to Singh and Weil to produce a UPS (or
>competitive vendor) tracking number for the shipment from Chicago to
>Nashville went unanswered. No tracking number, no shipment. No shipment,
>imaginary speakers.

Nice work, Sherlock daddy!
>

>I think that's the gist of what everybody with a brain has been complaining
>about.

That's us, right daddy?
>

>In this crowded competitive market it takes more than Singh's posturing and
>profane weirdness (the man doesn't know how to argue decently!) to sell a
>speaker.

It takes somebody with a brain, right daddy?

>Several informed people made this accusation, which up until about 24 hours
>ago was dismissed by people like Middius, Weil, Graham , etc.

Were we one of those informed people daddy?

>The ones that are successful and have technically-competent products didn't
>get their designs for $40 from Madisound, that's for sure!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

>As if you're anything but a posturing politics fool yourself, Middius.

Tell me a bedtime story, daddy.

>You forgot to add that along with Graham, Yustabe, Sockpuppet Wheel, and
>Weil, you're quite a little group.

Tell me a bedtime story, daddy.

>Been there, done that years and years ago.

I love when you say that, daddy. Can we go to bed now?

trotsky

October 7th 03, 06:46 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message

>>
>
>>>>Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing
>>>>ashamed of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't
>>>>about my being honest with dave, this is about you having another
>>>>chance to be an asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and
>>>> just drink some more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for
>>>>you to give yourself a reason to drink.
>>>
>
>>>Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?
>>
>
>>>>You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
>>>>looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you
>>>>cower with your own personal details because all it takes is a
>>>>tidbit of information and you're a dead duck. Coward.
>>>
>
>>>Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?
>>
>
>>Fewer than you, Arny.
>
>
> I ain't the guy that was spilling my guts and giving proprietary info to
> Graham the past few weeks, Singh. You are. You've known Graham for how many
> years?

Irrelevant.

> I figured out that Graham was a figurative street person with delusions of
> grandeur within a few days of his first post here.

The words "figurative street person" are meaningless, Krueger. You are
speaking a language that no normal human could recognize.

> Why are you, facts and reason such strangers, Singh?

Do you mean that figuratively?

While you're sharing
> proprietary *secrets* with us, could you reveal which brand of *stupid*
> pills you use?

That doesn't sound very Christian, Arny. Do you think your religion is
a joke?

trotsky

October 7th 03, 06:50 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>>George M. Middius wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
>>>>>I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
>>>>>their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
>>>>accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?
>>>
>>>
>>>Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
>>>old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
>>>science to make what he's using, afterall)
>>
>
>>Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
>>them.
>
>
> First Greg, give us the URL of Joe's loudspeaker sales web site. You know,
> the one like yours. As soon as you do that, your challenge might even be
> relevant.

Arny, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth again. You have
no problem telling us about your escapades as a "web publisher", but
suddenly this subject is verboten with Joe Oberlander? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 7th 03, 07:07 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
> >> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil
> >> of your mind.
>
> > You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
> > material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that
> > wrote that.
>
> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the pedophile
> fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then, you try to
> characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile fiction as itself
> being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been asking the rest of your
> clique: Why are you, and truth and reason such strangers?
>
Stop lying.
The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
You are really wound up these days.
Maybe its time for your next canoe trip with the 'boys'.

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 07:29 PM

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
>>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil
>>>> of your mind.
>>
>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
>>> material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that
>>> wrote that.
>>
>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then,
>> you try to characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile
>> fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been
>> asking the rest of your clique: Why are you, and truth and reason
>> such strangers?
>>
> Stop lying.
> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU

Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL of my
alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set the record
straight.

ScottW

October 7th 03, 08:59 PM

The Devil > wrote in message >...

> I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
> crossovers. Thanks.
>
> Any more questions, anyone?

It appears obvious that Greg spent more money on his web site
development than his speakers. Care to prove this assertion wrong?

ScottW

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 10:01 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:
>
>
>>>>Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>
>
>>>I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
>>>you have good taste in anything?
>
>
>
>>Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
>
>
> You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.
>
> You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
> "doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
> would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
> contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
> (albeit an off-the-shelf one),

Which is still merely a hopelessly average design. Not worth $1350
a pair.

> Give the little sweathog his due: The speakers don't sound terrible
> because they were "designed" by a qualified designer.

He can't even pick up a book and read a schematic well enough
to make a crossover himself. They've been designing corssovers
for generations now.

One should know the technical aspects of their intended trade
before starting a business in it, doubly so if you are the only
employee.

> You need to revert to the one criticism you've made that's valid even
> after the disclosure about Madisound: The speakers are overpriced.
> Gregipus can legitimately argue that they perform comparably to other
> $1300 speakers.

Hence, they are crap sounding for that price. When Madisound makes their
own kits for less that out-everything his, yes, sound for the money
is part of the problem.

I've repeatedly said that at $500 or $600, they would be good deals.
At $1300 or so? No. Ellis makes a far superior design if you MUST
get a handmade speaker.

OTOH, I bet that a simple pair of B&W 603s will do better than
Greg's design.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 10:26 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wanna Unclench His Bulldog Jaws said:
>
>
>>>Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
>>>accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?
>
>
>>Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
>>old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
>>science to make what he's using, afterall)
>
>
> My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

If he actually DID some design and tweaking with the cabinet
or tried any new technologies or... then the price would
be less of a problem.

Take a look at NoRH. Merely adequate drivers, to be honest,
but a great cabinet design that compensates pretty well.
Fom what I hear, their $1300 models are quite decent.

(I've only heard the smaller ones myself, but they were
actually quite acceptable.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 10:31 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true, such
> as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us (but
> apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
> crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.

I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
good to go.

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 10:34 PM

Obie Wan Placebo-Breath said:

> >>>Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
> >>>accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

> >>Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
> >>old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
> >>science to make what he's using, afterall)

> > My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

> If he actually DID some design and tweaking with the cabinet
> or tried any new technologies or... then the price would
> be less of a problem.

Regardless of their performance?

I really can't believe this garbage anyway. You seem to be saying
you're glad to pay more for something if you know exactly how much
time the developer put into making it. That is so absurd that you must
be trolling again.

BTW, you're also making nice with Mr. **** again. This calls your
sanity into question. How do you feel about your one-time statement,
"Arnii Krooger is just fine." ?

> Take a look at NoRH. Merely adequate drivers, to be honest,
> but a great cabinet design that compensates pretty well.
> Fom what I hear, their $1300 models are quite decent.

"From what I hear" usually refers to second-hand stories, not actual,
in-person listening. I'd hate to think you're telling us one speaker
you haven't heard is "better" than another speaker you haven't heard.

> (I've only heard the smaller ones myself, but they were
> actually quite acceptable.

By "smaller", do you mean not the $1300 ones but some others?

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 10:39 PM

trotsky wrote:

> Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
> them. Be sure to include a Zobel network if necessary. If you can't do
> it, could you please apologize to the group for being a liar and a
> beatoff? TIA.

Actually done that. Of course, that was ten years ago and I've
gotten rusty on the electronics(can't tell a resistor's value
instantly by looking at it - have to look it up), but the
knowledge is still there.

Look - if *I* was going into a field that required testing and
electronics/electrical theory as part of it, I'd learn it
ASAP - because the fact is that 80% of all businesses fail in
in the first year. Anything at all that I could do to make the
odds in my favor would be a given.

I don't though, in this case, because - I don't make speakers
for a living or intend to. For instance, I only know as much
about computers as I do because it's my main source of income.
Personally I find them to be dull and boring, but my job requires
me to know all about them, so I do my best.

Your approach is going to fail, mark my words, because you are
going at it like a hobby.

Joseph Oberlander

October 7th 03, 11:17 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>>If he actually DID some design and tweaking with the cabinet
>>or tried any new technologies or... then the price would
>>be less of a problem.
>
> Regardless of their performance?

From a marketing standpoint, yes. Time he puts into the design
is worth something. I doubt Madisound's generic crossovers are
going to perform worse than a proper redesign by him.

Okay, maybe from HIM. Lol.

>>Take a look at NoRH. Merely adequate drivers, to be honest,
>>but a great cabinet design that compensates pretty well.
>>Fom what I hear, their $1300 models are quite decent.
>
>
> "From what I hear" usually refers to second-hand stories, not actual,
> in-person listening. I'd hate to think you're telling us one speaker
> you haven't heard is "better" than another speaker you haven't heard.

NoRH speakers are hard to locate in person to hear. I've only heard
their smaller ones in person, but I can extrapolate the sound a bit
in my mind.

>>(I've only heard the smaller ones myself, but they were
>>actually quite acceptable.
>
> By "smaller", do you mean not the $1300 ones but some others?

Their most expensive synthetic marble designs are about $1300
a pair, last I checked.
(checks)
Wow. They raised the prices on the SM 7.0 to $1500 - about +$200.
Still, that includes shipping, so that's an out the door price.

Let's compare the SM 6.9.
http://www.norh.com/products/sm/index.html
Superior specs and based upon the drivers, better sound. Nice,
unconventional cabinet design that makes the speakers unique(a plus),
and $995.

But let's be fair. NoRH makes a 6.9 in a typical wood/mdf cabinet.
http://www.norh.com/products/prism/index.html

Honestly the 5.2 looks more like his speaker, size and spec-wise.
$500 a pair. For $1195, you get the big floorstanders, which
are going to obviously sound better than the Madisound designed
DIYers he's planning to sell.

George M. Middius

October 7th 03, 11:28 PM

Obie said:

> >>If he actually DID some design and tweaking with the cabinet
> >>or tried any new technologies or... then the price would
> >>be less of a problem.
> >
> > Regardless of their performance?

I'll bet your system sounds reeeeeeeeal good.

> From a marketing standpoint, yes. Time he puts into the design
> is worth something.

I'd rather have an old pro work on a speaker for 2 hours and produce a
pleasing result. But if you prefer to have a know-nothing amateur --
which is how you describe trotsky -- slave over a design for 2 weeks
and come up with crap, that's the way you should go.

<snicker>™

> I doubt Madisound's generic crossovers are
> going to perform worse than a proper redesign by him.

According to you, there's no chance in hell that trotsky can do a
"proper redesign".

> Okay, maybe from HIM. Lol.

If not HIM, then who?

> >>Take a look at NoRH. Merely adequate drivers, to be honest,
> >>but a great cabinet design that compensates pretty well.
> >>Fom what I hear, their $1300 models are quite decent.
> >
> >
> > "From what I hear" usually refers to second-hand stories, not actual,
> > in-person listening. I'd hate to think you're telling us one speaker
> > you haven't heard is "better" than another speaker you haven't heard.
>
> NoRH speakers are hard to locate in person to hear. I've only heard
> their smaller ones in person, but I can extrapolate the sound a bit
> in my mind.

One thing I agree with trotsky about is the value of thought
experiments.

> They raised the prices on the SM 7.0 to $1500 - about +$200.
> Still, that includes shipping, so that's an out the door price.
>
> Let's compare the SM 6.9.
> http://www.norh.com/products/sm/index.html
> Superior specs and based upon the drivers, better sound.

Yes, no need to listen to them. BTW, I couldn't find anything about
their return policy. Maybe you know where that is laid out.

> But let's be fair. NoRH makes a 6.9 in a typical wood/mdf cabinet.
> http://www.norh.com/products/prism/index.html

"The Prism 6.9 is focused on producing the absolute best bass possible
without a subwoofer. The bass performance of the Prism 6.9s is
astonishing."

Isn't that what you've called self-serving marketing-speak?

I think this is nothing but an outpouring of envy on your part.

Arny Krueger

October 7th 03, 11:38 PM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>> true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known
>> to most of us (but apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a
>> mediocre loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually
>> non-existent technical abilities.

> I personally think it is possible.

Surely true, but first Singh would have to shed his bad attitude about the
technology. Then he'd have to acquire the tools and become proficient with
them. Then he'd have to turn the proverbial basic technology crank, followed
by careful voicing and fine-tuning.

> It just requires reading and learning and a few breadboard kits and
parts.

IME it takes more than a few months of reading and fiddling around to cross
the "mediocre" line.

> Shoot, It's no different
> than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
> good to go.

I don't think so. Consider Ken Kantor's Vergence effort. His A10 and A20
speakers were well-above-average-sounding speakers. There was modest
well-targeted advertising followed by a spiral down into bankruptcy.
Remember, Kantor paid lots of years of dues in the loudspeaker industry and
had hit the big time once already. It takes more than just a
way-above-average sounding speaker to go any place in this crowded market.
It takes more than churning the cookbook process you can find on web pages
to come up with an above-average sounding speaker.

What one might get with the sort of cursory effort you describe is a speaker
that doesn't hurt the ears of critical listeners.

Lionel

October 7th 03, 11:43 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie said:
>
>
>>>>If he actually DID some design and tweaking with the cabinet
>>>>or tried any new technologies or... then the price would
>>>>be less of a problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>Regardless of their performance?
>
>
> I'll bet your system sounds reeeeeeeeal good.
>
>
>> From a marketing standpoint, yes. Time he puts into the design
>>is worth something.
>
>
> I'd rather have an old pro work on a speaker for 2 hours and produce a
> pleasing result. But if you prefer to have a know-nothing amateur --
> which is how you describe trotsky -- slave over a design for 2 weeks
> and come up with crap, that's the way you should go.
>
> <snicker>™
>
>
>>I doubt Madisound's generic crossovers are
>>going to perform worse than a proper redesign by him.
>
>
> According to you, there's no chance in hell that trotsky can do a
> "proper redesign".
>
>
>>Okay, maybe from HIM. Lol.
>
>
> If not HIM, then who?
>
>
>>>>Take a look at NoRH. Merely adequate drivers, to be honest,
>>>>but a great cabinet design that compensates pretty well.
>>>>Fom what I hear, their $1300 models are quite decent.
>>>
>>>
>>>"From what I hear" usually refers to second-hand stories, not actual,
>>>in-person listening. I'd hate to think you're telling us one speaker
>>>you haven't heard is "better" than another speaker you haven't heard.
>>
>>NoRH speakers are hard to locate in person to hear. I've only heard
>>their smaller ones in person, but I can extrapolate the sound a bit
>>in my mind.
>
>
> One thing I agree with trotsky about is the value of thought
> experiments.
>
>
>>They raised the prices on the SM 7.0 to $1500 - about +$200.
>>Still, that includes shipping, so that's an out the door price.
>>
>>Let's compare the SM 6.9.
>>http://www.norh.com/products/sm/index.html
>>Superior specs and based upon the drivers, better sound.
>
>
> Yes, no need to listen to them. BTW, I couldn't find anything about
> their return policy. Maybe you know where that is laid out.
>
>
>
>>But let's be fair. NoRH makes a 6.9 in a typical wood/mdf cabinet.
>>http://www.norh.com/products/prism/index.html
>
>
> "The Prism 6.9 is focused on producing the absolute best bass possible
> without a subwoofer. The bass performance of the Prism 6.9s is
> astonishing."
>
> Isn't that what you've called self-serving marketing-speak?
>
>
> I think this is nothing but an outpouring of envy on your part.
>
>
Hey Middius this conversation with Joseph looks like a Gestapo's grilling.
Did you receive a specific training ?

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:01 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
>
>>
>> Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:
>>
>>
>>>>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
>>>> do you have good taste in anything?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.
>>
>> You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
>> "doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
>> would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
>> contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
>> (albeit an off-the-shelf one),
>
>
> Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.

It sounds like you're describing JBLs.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:32 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>> Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
>> them. Be sure to include a Zobel network if necessary. If you can't
>> do it, could you please apologize to the group for being a liar and a
>> beatoff? TIA.
>
>
> Actually done that. Of course, that was ten years ago and I've
> gotten rusty on the electronics(can't tell a resistor's value
> instantly by looking at it - have to look it up), but the
> knowledge is still there.
>
> Look - if *I* was going into a field that required testing and
> electronics/electrical theory as part of it, I'd learn it
> ASAP - because the fact is that 80% of all businesses fail in
> in the first year. Anything at all that I could do to make the
> odds in my favor would be a given.

Yeah, except I've already got an excellent product, and you've yet to
prove yourself intelligent enough to evaluate this fact in any way
that's credible. Again, your aim here is to just be a beatoff--that's
hardly my fault.

The Devil

October 8th 03, 12:45 AM

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:32:39 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>Yeah, except I've already got an excellent product,

Yeah, I have many of them. My VCR is an excellent product. I didn't it
either.

--
td

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:50 AM

The Devil wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:32:39 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, except I've already got an excellent product,
>
>
> Yeah, I have many of them. My VCR is an excellent product. I didn't it
> either.

Alcohol can be an evil thing.

The Devil

October 8th 03, 12:54 AM

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:50:10 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>> Yeah, I have many of them. My VCR is an excellent product. I didn't it
>> either.

>Alcohol can be an evil thing.

Quick fingers and a lack of design. Glad you spotted!

--
td

Lionel

October 8th 03, 12:55 AM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> The Devil wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:32:39 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yeah, except I've already got an excellent product,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I have many of them. My VCR is an excellent product. I didn't it
>> either.
>
>
>
> Alcohol can be an evil thing.
>

"In vino veritas"

Lionel

October 8th 03, 12:57 AM

The Devil wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:50:10 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>>Yeah, I have many of them. My VCR is an excellent product. I didn't it
>>>either.
>
>
>>Alcohol can be an evil thing.
>
>
> Quick fingers and a lack of design. Glad you spotted!
>
> --
> td

"Ecce inter pocula quaerunt omulidae saturi quid dia poemata narrent"

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 01:46 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> > George M. Middius wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
> >>>> do you have good taste in anything?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.
> >>
> >> You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
> >> "doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
> >> would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
> >> contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
> >> (albeit an off-the-shelf one),
> >
> >
> > Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>
>
> It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>
You wish you could get .001% of their market share.

Of course that would mean actual R&D. OOoops Kryptonite.

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 8th 03, 01:46 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
> >>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil
> >>>> of your mind.
> >>
> >>> You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
> >>> material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that
> >>> wrote that.
> >>
> >> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
> >> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then,
> >> you try to characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile
> >> fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been
> >> asking the rest of your clique: Why are you, and truth and reason
> >> such strangers?
> >>
> > Stop lying.
> > The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
>
> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL of my
> alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set the record
> straight.
>

It has already been documented here numerous times.
You didn't own up to it then, and
you are not going to change now.

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 01:50 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> > trotsky wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>
> >>> trotsky wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> There you have it, folks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
> >>>>> hunch.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I have.

Where?

They're ****.

Brad will build cabinets to any specification you wish.
Apparently you don't know **** about cabinet design either, oh wait we
covered that when you said it was OK for the box to rattle so it could
improve the sound.

My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
> >> do you have good taste in anything?
> >>
He knows enough not to buy **** from you.
> >
> > Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
>
>
>
> Then you don't know dick about audio, Joe.
>
That would make you equals.

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 02:32 AM

"The Devil" > wrote in message
news:un84ov04ck3598dm67kmfnekbs31fnsnho@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> [snip--Greg didn't design the Europas]
>
> >Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first posted:
>
> >From: "Michael Mckelvy" >
> >Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
> >Subject: Re: Trotsky, please listen to me.
> >Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700
> >
> >http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vlfpfvi7b9q34e%40corp.supernews.com
> >
> >"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling
of
> >xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
> >that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match through Madisound"
>
> Yes, I saw this. But that was nothing more than duh-Mickey's rabid
> conjecture.

You're no doubt familiar with the term "educated guess."

In his reply to my post, Greg blabbed something about
> 'privileged information', which I assume refers to a particular aspect
> of a phone conversation we had some time ago.
>
> >> Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
> >
> >Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> >
> >Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!
>
> Mickey guessed at that and got no answer.

What a shock, greg didn't want to thell the truth when confronted with it

I felt certain Greg didn't
> design the speakers, and when I mentioned it he replied in a manner
> that suggested that guess was correct. He could only mean one thing by
> 'privileged information', but since that conversation was private, I'm
> not going to disclose it.
>
So you aided and abetted.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 02:34 AM

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
>>>>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night
>>>>>> soil of your mind.
>>>>
>>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
>>>>> material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you
>>>>> that wrote that.
>>>>
>>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
>>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then,
>>>> you try to characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile
>>>> fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been
>>>> asking the rest of your clique: Why are you, and truth and reason
>>>> such strangers?

>>> Stop lying.
>>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU

>> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL
>> of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set
>> the record straight.

> It has already been documented here numerous times.

Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet Yustabe.

For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com

It's dated 4/23/1998.

Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's more lengthy
experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
..com

It's dated 10/25/1998

Or this classic from Singh:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm

It's dated 6/25/1998

How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
0thor.internauts.ca

It's dated 5/22/1997

> You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change now.

As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in mind
sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce pedophilia to
RAO.

Until then, thanks for being a no-show once again, sockpuppet Yustabe. Why
are you and the truth always such strangers?

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 03:29 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
> > Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true,
such
> > as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us
(but
> > apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
> > crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.
>
> I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
> learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
> than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
> good to go.
>
But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently doesn't
really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers. Text book formulae
and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his abilities. Forty bucks
to Madisound and some cheap drivers and suddently he thinks he's a designer.

There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him from
buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to design and
measure the performance of a speaker system.

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 8th 03, 05:36 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
> >>>>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night
> >>>>>> soil of your mind.
> >>>>
> >>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic
> >>>>> material in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you
> >>>>> that wrote that.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
> >>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of. Then,
> >>>> you try to characterize my frequent public objections to pedophile
> >>>> fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same question I've been
> >>>> asking the rest of your clique: Why are you, and truth and reason
> >>>> such strangers?
>
> >>> Stop lying.
> >>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
>
> >> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL
> >> of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set
> >> the record straight.
>
> > It has already been documented here numerous times.
>
> Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet Yustabe.
>
> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
>
> It's dated 4/23/1998.
>
> Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's more
lengthy
> experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:
>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
> .com
>
> It's dated 10/25/1998
>
> Or this classic from Singh:
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm
>
> It's dated 6/25/1998
>
> How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?
>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
> 0thor.internauts.ca
>
> It's dated 5/22/1997
>
> > You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change now.
>
> As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in mind
> sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce pedophilia
to
> RAO.
>

Been there, done that (collectively)
eveybody knows, no reason for you to keep up the pretense.

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Joseph Oberlander

October 8th 03, 08:01 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

> I'd rather have an old pro work on a speaker for 2 hours and produce a
> pleasing result. But if you prefer to have a know-nothing amateur --
> which is how you describe trotsky -- slave over a design for 2 weeks
> and come up with crap, that's the way you should go.
>
> <snicker>™

So would I. If he WAS actually making and tweaking and asking
questions on how to improve things and pouring over programs and
manuals and such...

Yes, I'd pay a bit. Ellis Audio is a perfect example. I couldn't
make his cabinets for the price he charges. Shoot, he obsesses over
tiny things like what metal the screws are made out of.

>>NoRH speakers are hard to locate in person to hear. I've only heard
>>their smaller ones in person, but I can extrapolate the sound a bit
>>in my mind.
>
> One thing I agree with trotsky about is the value of thought
> experiments.

>>Let's compare the SM 6.9.
>>http://www.norh.com/products/sm/index.html
>>Superior specs and based upon the drivers, better sound.
>
> Yes, no need to listen to them. BTW, I couldn't find anything about
> their return policy. Maybe you know where that is laid out.

They do, but shipping back to Thailand is not free, since it was
free when you bought the speakers.

Personally I'm shocked that he doesn't have a distributor in
California.

>>But let's be fair. NoRH makes a 6.9 in a typical wood/mdf cabinet.
>>http://www.norh.com/products/prism/index.html
>
>
> "The Prism 6.9 is focused on producing the absolute best bass possible
> without a subwoofer. The bass performance of the Prism 6.9s is
> astonishing."
>
> Isn't that what you've called self-serving marketing-speak?

Heh. All speaker manufacturers say crap like that. I don't
even read it anymore it's so commonplace. "great bass - perfect
holographic.. blah blah blah..."

:)

Joseph Oberlander

October 8th 03, 08:22 AM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:

> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.

Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 10:52 AM

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
>>>>>>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night
>>>>>>>> soil of your mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received
>>>>>>> pedophilic material in the mail from an unknown source.
>>>>>>> Oh....that was you that wrote that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
>>>>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of.
>>>>>> Then, you try to characterize my frequent public objections to
>>>>>> pedophile fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same
>>>>>> question I've been asking the rest of your clique: Why are you,
>>>>>> and truth and reason such strangers?
>>
>>>>> Stop lying.
>>>>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
>>
>>>> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL
>>>> of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set
>>>> the record straight.
>>
>>> It has already been documented here numerous times.
>>
>> Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet Yustabe.
>>
>> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
>>
>> It's dated 4/23/1998.
>>
>> Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's more
> lengthy
>> experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:
>>
>>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
>> .com
>>
>> It's dated 10/25/1998
>>
>> Or this classic from Singh:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm
>>
>> It's dated 6/25/1998
>>
>> How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?
>>
>>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
>> 0thor.internauts.ca
>>
>> It's dated 5/22/1997
>>
>>> You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change now.

>> As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in
>> mind sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce
>> pedophilia to RAO.

> Been there, done that (collectively)

Then you know what the date is. And the date is?

> everybody knows, no reason for you to keep up the pretense.

What does *everybody* know?

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 11:11 AM

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> ink.net...

>> Arny Krueger wrote:

>>> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>> true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known
>>> to most of us (but apparently not you, Graham) that designing even
>>> a mediocre loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually
>>> non-existent technical abilities.

>> I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>> learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>> different than studying to get a radio license. A few months later
>> and you are good to go.

> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.

I know dozens of EE's and all show considerable signs of knowing an ohm from
a volt. Not so with Singh. Anybody who has any kind of serious technical
training that is familiar with Singh that I've talked to is mystified by
Singh's claim that he as an EE. It's almost like a different Greg Singh did
the education thing.

> He apparently
> doesn't really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers.

They generally don't teach people how to design crossovers in EE school.
They teach the basic and fundamental procedural and analytical skills. But
again, I've never seen any EE as challenged when it comes to systems
analysis as Singh.

> Text
> book formulae and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his
> abilities.

Agreed. And it takes more than that to do a competitive job.

>Forty bucks to Madisound and some cheap drivers and
> suddenly he thinks he's a designer.

Three's two sides to that coin. The first is that the $40 Madisound design
is worlds better than equivalent analysis from say the 1960s or 1970s. The
second is that whether it is 1960 or 2003, the LEAP-type simplified
theoretical design is just a starting point.

The next thing that would happen is that a prototype would be built up and
tested and listened to. It would be tested and listened to in a variety of
environments. Adjustments to the system design would be made and there would
be an iterative process of build, test, build test. People who know what
they are doing, and therefore do this as expeditiously as possible, spend
months of hard work developing a single loudspeaker system.

Does anybody seriously think that Singh has built a reasonable acoustical
test and development lab for himself? Singh doesn't show much respect for
*any* kind of measurement. I'm quite sure he does not understand audio
measurement technology, particularly as it applies to speakers. I can't see
him making the investment in time and money. If he'd made the investment,
he'd no doubt be talking about it.

Listening tests are a critical part of the loudspeaker development process.
There's a synergy between listening and measurement when they are done
right. Singh has so much disrespect for measurements that he can't possibly
benefit from the synergy. His serious competitors do tap into that synergy
as a rule. Singh is a one-armed man trying to play baseball in a world of
two-armed men.

One might wonder what kind of arrogance it takes for Singh to try to get the
big bucks for such a raw, figuratively unbaked product. Those of us who have
worked with Singh over the years are not the least bit surprised.

> There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him
> from buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to
> design and measure the performance of a speaker system.

Interestingly enough, Singh could have acquired the resources for
technically designing and technically testing his design, for maybe as much
money as he put into the web site. Every time he ships a pair of speakers
across the country, he spends the price of a cheap but highly competent
measurement mic, for example.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 11:19 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>
>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>
> Really?

Really.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=386776E9.401A615D%40mc.net

Greg Singh wrote:

"What do you mean 'claim to have an EE'? I invited you to corroborate that
fact
with the Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign."

>OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.

Lionel

October 8th 03, 11:32 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

[snip]
>
> Interestingly enough, Singh could have acquired the resources for
> technically designing and technically testing his design, for maybe as much
> money as he put into the web site. Every time he ships a pair of speakers
> across the country, he spends the price of a cheap but highly competent
> measurement mic, for example.
>
>
Are you ready to built and give him a real test procedure ?
This guy in not interested in development, this guy is only interested
in *easy* money.
He is not a technician, he is a salesman and better to sell audio
components he should sell insurance contracts.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 11:46 AM

"Lionel" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>
>> Interestingly enough, Singh could have acquired the resources for
>> technically designing and technically testing his design, for maybe
>> as much money as he put into the web site. Every time he ships a
>> pair of speakers across the country, he spends the price of a cheap
>> but highly competent measurement mic, for example.
>
> Are you ready to built and give him a real test procedure ?

No, because I make a rule of not preparing for highly improbable situations.

Building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of products
selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's. They talk a lot
about what they do, and I've visited their workplaces. I've met a number of
their co-workers and suppliers as well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.

Two of my close friends designed the two most highly rated automotive sound
systems (one each), in terms of consumer satisfaction, as shown by current
E.H. Powers customer satisfaction surveys. Ironic given that they design
sound systems for trucks and SUVs, while the Powers reports include all
luxury cars as well. In many cases the best sound system many consumers
have, is the one in their motor vehicle.

> This guy in not interested in development, this guy is only interested
> in *easy* money.

Story of his life, I fear.

> He is not a technician, he is a salesman and better to sell audio
> components he should sell insurance contracts.

Yes, something like that.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:48 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>>George M. Middius wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
>>>>>>do you have good taste in anything?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.
>>>>
>>>>You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
>>>>"doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
>>>>would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
>>>>contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
>>>>(albeit an off-the-shelf one),
>>>
>>>
>>>Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>>
>>
>>It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>>
>
> You wish you could get .001% of their market share.
>
> Of course that would mean actual R&D.

I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.
You might want to tell your buddy George W. Bush that.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:51 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>>trotsky wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>trotsky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>There you have it, folks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
>>>>>>>hunch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have.
>>>
>
> Where?
>
> They're ****.
>
> Brad will build cabinets to any specification you wish.

For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.

> Apparently you don't know **** about cabinet design either, oh wait we
> covered that when you said it was OK for the box to rattle so it could
> improve the sound.

Generally it's only Arny that's capable of such jealousy.

> My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
>
>>>>do you have good taste in anything?
>>>>
>>>
> He knows enough not to buy **** from you.

You're spazzing, Mickey. You need to lie down for awhile.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 12:58 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true,
>>
> such
>
>>>as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us
>>
> (but
>
>>>apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
>>>crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.
>>
>>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
>>than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
>>good to go.
>>
>
> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently doesn't
> really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers. Text book formulae
> and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his abilities. Forty bucks
> to Madisound and some cheap drivers and suddently he thinks he's a designer.
>
> There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him from
> buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to design and
> measure the performance of a speaker system.

Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
success? If so, you are a couple of the most clueless *******s I've
seen in all my life. I figure the website had to really bother you:
what did you have, one page on Geocities? With a picture of a speaker
in your front yard? You're a joke, Mickey, and we both know it.

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 8th 03, 01:04 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that
> >>>>>>>> you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night
> >>>>>>>> soil of your mind.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received
> >>>>>>> pedophilic material in the mail from an unknown source.
> >>>>>>> Oh....that was you that wrote that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
> >>>>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of.
> >>>>>> Then, you try to characterize my frequent public objections to
> >>>>>> pedophile fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same
> >>>>>> question I've been asking the rest of your clique: Why are you,
> >>>>>> and truth and reason such strangers?
> >>
> >>>>> Stop lying.
> >>>>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
> >>
> >>>> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the URL
> >>>> of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then I'll set
> >>>> the record straight.
> >>
> >>> It has already been documented here numerous times.
> >>
> >> Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet Yustabe.
> >>
> >> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
> >>
> >> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
> >>
> >> It's dated 4/23/1998.
> >>
> >> Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's more
> > lengthy
> >> experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:
> >>
> >>
> >
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
> >> .com
> >>
> >> It's dated 10/25/1998
> >>
> >> Or this classic from Singh:
> >>
> >> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm
> >>
> >> It's dated 6/25/1998
> >>
> >> How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?
> >>
> >>
> >
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
> >> 0thor.internauts.ca
> >>
> >> It's dated 5/22/1997
> >>
> >>> You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change now.
>
> >> As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in
> >> mind sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce
> >> pedophilia to RAO.
>
> > Been there, done that (collectively)
>
> Then you know what the date is. And the date is?
>

Look it up

Its been published here many times.
Have fun with Google.

> > everybody knows, no reason for you to keep up the pretense.
>
> What does *everybody* know?
>

That you ar a turd.

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trotsky

October 8th 03, 01:05 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
>
>
>> I'd rather have an old pro work on a speaker for 2 hours and produce a
>> pleasing result. But if you prefer to have a know-nothing amateur --
>> which is how you describe trotsky -- slave over a design for 2 weeks
>> and come up with crap, that's the way you should go.
>>
>> <snicker>™
>
>
> So would I. If he WAS actually making and tweaking and asking
> questions on how to improve things and pouring over programs and
> manuals and such...
>
> Yes, I'd pay a bit. Ellis Audio is a perfect example.

Of a guy looking to lose money? Agreed. I think what you need to
realize is that you can't tell what direction the arrow is pointing in
this example too, Joe. Now go put on a dunce cap and sit in the corner.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 01:06 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>
>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>
>
> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.

Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 8th 03, 01:08 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...

> . In many cases the best sound system many consumers
> have, is the one in their motor vehicle.

A sad commentary, indeed

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

trotsky

October 8th 03, 01:13 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>
>
>>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>
>>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>
>>>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>>>true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known
>>>>to most of us (but apparently not you, Graham) that designing even
>>>>a mediocre loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually
>>>>non-existent technical abilities.
>>>
>
>>>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>>>different than studying to get a radio license. A few months later
>>>and you are good to go.
>>
>
>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>
>
> I know dozens of EE's and all show considerable signs of knowing an ohm from
> a volt.

And they all own boats, or was that a different story?

trotsky

October 8th 03, 01:14 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> nk.net
>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>
>>Really?
>
>
> Really.
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=386776E9.401A615D%40mc.net
>
> Greg Singh wrote:
>
> "What do you mean 'claim to have an EE'? I invited you to corroborate that
> fact
> with the Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign."

Arny, this is interesting: why would you be in a hurry to bring up your
past failures like this?

trotsky

October 8th 03, 01:15 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Interestingly enough, Singh could have acquired the resources for
>>>technically designing and technically testing his design, for maybe
>>>as much money as he put into the web site. Every time he ships a
>>>pair of speakers across the country, he spends the price of a cheap
>>>but highly competent measurement mic, for example.
>>
>>Are you ready to built and give him a real test procedure ?
>
>
> No, because I make a rule of not preparing for highly improbable situations.
>
> Building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
> friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of products
> selling for $13,000-50,000,

Okay, these are the ones that own boats, right?

tor b

October 8th 03, 01:44 PM

>From: trotsky
>Date: 10/8/2003 7:06 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

<snipped>

Poor deluded Trotsky wrote:

>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>distance with me.

.....and your speakers are excellent. ;-)

You really are a legend in your own (twisted) mind!

Lionel

October 8th 03, 01:48 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>
>>
>>
>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>
>
>
> Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
> distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
> simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>
>
He says that because he doesn't speak with me.
He's scary about me. He perfectly knows that he couldn't go the
distance... ;o)

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 01:52 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Michael Mckelvy wrote:

>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>> ...

>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:

>>>> Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.

>>> It sounds like you're describing JBLs.

>> You wish you could get .001% of their market share.

>> Of course that would mean actual R&D.

> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve
> it.

A quickie schlock job with a ridiculously high price isn't going to solve it
either.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 01:52 PM

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction
>>>>>>>>>> that you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with
>>>>>>>>>> the night soil of your mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received
>>>>>>>>> pedophilic material in the mail from an unknown source.
>>>>>>>>> Oh....that was you that wrote that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
>>>>>>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of.
>>>>>>>> Then, you try to characterize my frequent public objections to
>>>>>>>> pedophile fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same
>>>>>>>> question I've been asking the rest of your clique: Why are you,
>>>>>>>> and truth and reason such strangers?
>>>>
>>>>>>> Stop lying.
>>>>>>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
>>>>
>>>>>> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the
>>>>>> URL of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then
>>>>>> I'll set the record straight.
>>>>
>>>>> It has already been documented here numerous times.
>>>>
>>>> Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet
>>>> Yustabe.
>>>>
>>>> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
>>>>
>>>> It's dated 4/23/1998.
>>>>
>>>> Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's
>>>> more
>>> lengthy
>>>> experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
>>>> .com
>>>>
>>>> It's dated 10/25/1998
>>>>
>>>> Or this classic from Singh:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm
>>>>
>>>> It's dated 6/25/1998
>>>>
>>>> How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
>>>> 0thor.internauts.ca
>>>>
>>>> It's dated 5/22/1997
>>>>
>>>>> You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change
>>>>> now.
>>
>>>> As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in
>>>> mind sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce
>>>> pedophilia to RAO.
>>
>>> Been there, done that (collectively)
>>
>> Then you know what the date is. And the date is?
>>
>
> Look it up
>
> Its been published here many times.
> Have fun with Google.
>
>>> everybody knows, no reason for you to keep up the pretense.
>>
>> What does *everybody* know?
>>
>
> That you ar a turd.

Spoken like the true professional you really are, sockpuppet Yustabe.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 01:54 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Michael Mckelvy wrote:

>> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...

>>> Arny Krueger wrote:

>>>> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>>> true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known
to most of us (but
>>>> apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre
>>>> loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent
>>>> technical abilities.

>>> I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>> learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>>> different than studying to get a radio license. A few months later
>>> and you are good to go.

>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
>> doesn't really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers.
>> Text book formulae and trial and error correction seem to be beyond
>> his abilities. Forty bucks to Madisound and some cheap drivers and
>> suddenly he thinks he's a designer.

>> There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him
>> from buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to
>> design and measure the performance of a speaker system.

> Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
> success?

What they have is recipes for avoiding abject technical failure.

Joseph Oberlander

October 8th 03, 02:00 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Three's two sides to that coin. The first is that the $40 Madisound design
> is worlds better than equivalent analysis from say the 1960s or 1970s. The
> second is that whether it is 1960 or 2003, the LEAP-type simplified
> theoretical design is just a starting point.
>
> The next thing that would happen is that a prototype would be built up and
> tested and listened to. It would be tested and listened to in a variety of
> environments. Adjustments to the system design would be made and there would
> be an iterative process of build, test, build test. People who know what
> they are doing, and therefore do this as expeditiously as possible, spend
> months of hard work developing a single loudspeaker system.

Well, he could get a nice mic and software and do the same sort of
signal analysis that you and others do for audio cards. At least
get an idea.

Oh - look - a bad notch/dip there. Too much resonance there.
Read some books and recommendations and start adjusting things
like the port, filling(I head that acoustical lining/mats they put
in computer cases works wonders to deaden cabinets, for instance),
internal bracing, location of the binding posts ...

I've even seen designs where the drivers were too close to each
other or the tweeter merely needed to be in a seperate tiny box
within the main cabinet. Some designers just get fed up and put the
tweeted outside of the main box(B&W seems to like this) All part
of the months of experimenting.

That's just the beginning, but I bet that for $500 in materials
and equipment, including the parts to do the alterations, Greg
could double the quality of his design. Parts Express has a nice
set of speakers, btw. The removeable faceplates are perfect for
tsting internal alterations within minutes of each other.

One control speaker - original design. One is the previous mod,
and one is the current one. The control is there for later, when
the main testing is done to hear the improvement/change. Swap
faceplates and adjust things a bit at a time For $10-20 a pop,
this is a good design for his testing, at least IMO. Once the
design is debugged, then moving it to the other cabinet is pretty
doable.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 02:02 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Interestingly enough, Singh could have acquired the resources for
>>>> technically designing and technically testing his design, for maybe
>>>> as much money as he put into the web site. Every time he ships a
>>>> pair of speakers across the country, he spends the price of a cheap
>>>> but highly competent measurement mic, for example.
>>>
>>> Are you ready to built and give him a real test procedure ?
>>
>>
>> No, because I make a rule of not preparing for highly improbable
>> situations.
>>
>> Building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly
>> number friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part
>> of products selling for $13,000-50,000,
>
>
> Okay, these are the ones that own boats, right?

Nope. None of them have a boat AFAIK.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 02:02 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in
>>> message ink.net...
>>
>>
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>>>> true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was
>>>>> well-known to most of us (but apparently not you, Graham) that
>>>>> designing even a mediocre loudspeaker crossover was beyond
>>>>> Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.
>>>>
>>
>>>> I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>>> learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>>>> different than studying to get a radio license. A few months later
>>>> and you are good to go.
>>>
>>
>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>
>>
>> I know dozens of EE's and all show considerable signs of knowing an
>> ohm from a volt.
>
>
> And they all own boats, or was that a different story?

Different story.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 02:36 PM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Three's two sides to that coin. The first is that the $40 Madisound
>> design is worlds better than equivalent analysis from say the 1960s
>> or 1970s. The second is that whether it is 1960 or 2003, the
>> LEAP-type simplified theoretical design is just a starting point.

>> The next thing that would happen is that a prototype would be built
>> up and tested and listened to. It would be tested and listened to in
>> a variety of environments. Adjustments to the system design would be
>> made and there would be an iterative process of build, test, build
>> test. People who know what they are doing, and therefore do this as
>> expeditiously as possible, spend months of hard work developing a
>> single loudspeaker system.

> Well, he could get a nice mic and software and do the same sort of
> signal analysis that you and others do for audio cards. At least
> get an idea.

I think that for a $grand and a PC Singh probably already has, he could do
fairly sophisticated design and testing of speakers, if he knew what he was
doing.

> Oh - look - a bad notch/dip there. Too much resonance there.

Yeah, stuff like that. It takes lots of work to make a speaker a production
item. He needs to get a bunch of drivers, measure them, and see how their
performance wanders around to make sure his design is centered on the
statistical mean.

> Read some books and recommendations and start adjusting things
> like the port, filling(I head that acoustical lining/mats they put
> in computer cases works wonders to deaden cabinets, for instance),
> internal bracing, location of the binding posts ...

Stuff like that. Stuff like looking at how smooth the front panel has to be
to not be a problem. Where on the baffle do the drivers work best.

> I've even seen designs where the drivers were too close to each
> other or the tweeter merely needed to be in a separate tiny box
> within the main cabinet. Some designers just get fed up and put the
> tweeted outside of the main box(B&W seems to like this) All part
> of the months of experimenting.

Stuff like that.

> That's just the beginning, but I bet that for $500 in materials
> and equipment, including the parts to do the alterations, Greg
> could double the quality of his design. Parts Express has a nice
> set of speakers, btw. The removable faceplates are perfect for
> testing internal alterations within minutes of each other.

Something like that.

> One control speaker - original design. One is the previous mod,
> and one is the current one. The control is there for later, when
> the main testing is done to hear the improvement/change. Swap
> faceplates and adjust things a bit at a time For $10-20 a pop,
> this is a good design for his testing, at least IMO. Once the
> design is debugged, then moving it to the other cabinet is pretty
> doable.

Bottom line, lots of work is needed to get a competitive design worthy of
the appellation "high end". It takes time to learn how to feel comfortable
with the tools, even before work on a serious design commences. Singh and
most of the RAO trolls have no appreciation for that, so it just ain't gonna
happen for them.

The first thing Singh would have to do is drop his anti-technology rhetoric.
If he's going to walk the walk, he would do well to start talking the talk.
I don't know who in his life would teach him, though. I think he's more than
****ed off anybody who could. He's got a years-long track record for being
congenitally unteachable.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 03:40 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>>
>
>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>
>
>>>>>Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>>>>
>
>>>>It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>>>
>
>>>You wish you could get .001% of their market share.
>>
>
>>>Of course that would mean actual R&D.
>>
>
>>I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve
>>it.
>
>
> A quickie schlock job with a ridiculously high price isn't going to solve it
> either.

Krueger, you buy used and close-out speakers and you think you're
qualified to comment on price? Do you have to win the horse's ass of
the year award *every* year?

trotsky

October 8th 03, 03:42 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>
>>>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>>
>
>>>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>
>>>>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>>>>true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known
>>>>
> to most of us (but
>
>>>>>apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre
>>>>>loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent
>>>>>technical abilities.
>>>>
>
>>>>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>>>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>>>>different than studying to get a radio license. A few months later
>>>>and you are good to go.
>>>
>
>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
>>>doesn't really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers.
>>>Text book formulae and trial and error correction seem to be beyond
>>>his abilities. Forty bucks to Madisound and some cheap drivers and
>>>suddenly he thinks he's a designer.
>>
>
>>>There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him
>>>from buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to
>>>design and measure the performance of a speaker system.
>>
>
>>Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
>>success?
>
>
> What they have is recipes for avoiding abject technical failure.

God, Krueger, I've already caught you lying about this once, and you
couldn't respond to the ****ing post even after I posted it SIX TIMES.
Crawl back in your ****ing rat hole and do us all a favor.

dave weil

October 8th 03, 04:15 PM

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>uilding speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
>friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of products
>selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's. They talk a lot
>about what they do, and I've visited their workplaces. I've met a number of
>their co-workers and suppliers as well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.

So why don't you ream them for selling products that are "overpriced"?
Why don't you get them to face the errors of their ways? Why don't you
notify them immediately that any speaker over $1500 is facing extreme
dininishing returns? After all, one of the "reference web pages" that
you tout says so.

Is it because you're blinded by science? Impressed with labs and
sawdust? Is it the smell of the glue that turns you on?

dave weil

October 8th 03, 04:44 PM

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>
>
>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>
>>
>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>
>
>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.

Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 04:53 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>>>>
>>
>>>> You wish you could get .001% of their market share.

>>>> Of course that would mean actual R&D.

>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve
>>> it.

>> A quickie schlock job with a ridiculously high price isn't going to
>> solve it either.

> Krueger, you buy used and close-out speakers and you think you're
> qualified to comment on price?

Which speakers do I have that are used and/or close-outs? Well, the Paradigm
Phantoms I bought about 7 years ago were last year's model. Then there are
the 5 or more pair of speakers I purchased since then, which were new,
street priced products. So what's your problem, Singh? I got a good deal 7
years ago and that makes me a cheapskate?

>Do you have to win the horse's ass of the year award *every* year?

Singh, which one of us has been crying in his soup because his RAO-based
marketing plan blew up?

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 04:56 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>> building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
>> friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of
>> products selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's.
>> They talk a lot about what they do, and I've visited their
>> workplaces. I've met a number of their co-workers and suppliers as
>> well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.

> So why don't you ream them for selling products that are "overpriced"?

Probably because I don't have hard-and-fast rules about speaker pricing.

> Why don't you get them to face the errors of their ways?

Probably because I think their work delivers good value for the money, and
have a well-known market research company that says the same thing.

> Why don't you
> notify them immediately that any speaker over $1500 is facing extreme
> diminishing returns? After all, one of the "reference web pages" that
> you tout says so.

Obviously you don't keep up very well Singh, because a few days ago I agreed
with someone else's deconstruction of that specific point.

> Is it because you're blinded by science?

Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
conclusions.

> Impressed with labs and sawdust?

Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
conclusions.

>Is it the smell of the glue that turns you on?

Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
conclusions.

Arny Krueger

October 8th 03, 04:59 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> ink.net...
>>>
>>
>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
>>>>>> true, such as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was
>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>
>> to most of us (but
>>
>>>>>> apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre
>>>>>> loudspeaker crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent
>>>>>> technical abilities.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>>>> learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no
>>>>> different than studying to get a radio license. A few months
>>>>> later and you are good to go.
>>>>
>>
>>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
>>>> doesn't really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers.
>>>> Text book formulae and trial and error correction seem to be beyond
>>>> his abilities. Forty bucks to Madisound and some cheap drivers and
>>>> suddenly he thinks he's a designer.
>>>
>>
>>>> There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him
>>>> from buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to
>>>> design and measure the performance of a speaker system.
>>>
>>
>>> Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes
>>> for success?
>>
>>
>> What they have is recipes for avoiding abject technical failure.

> God, Krueger, I've already caught you lying about this once, and you
> couldn't respond to the ****ing post even after I posted it SIX TIMES.

I don't feel compelled to respond to every bit of your delusional behavior,
Singh.

> Crawl back in your ****ing rat hole and do us all a favor.

Singh, I'm trying to figure out the average time in years between when you
get your butt kicked and when you finally feel the pain. Seems like RAO
history says its well over 3.

So Singh I guess we'll just have to wait about 3 years until you figure out
what's happened to you during the last couple of months.

dave weil

October 8th 03, 06:10 PM

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:56:55 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"dave weil" > wrote in message

>> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
>>> friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of
>>> products selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's.
>>> They talk a lot about what they do, and I've visited their
>>> workplaces. I've met a number of their co-workers and suppliers as
>>> well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.
>
>> So why don't you ream them for selling products that are "overpriced"?
>
>Probably because I don't have hard-and-fast rules about speaker pricing.

What about the "diminishing returns" that you claimed once you hit the
$1500 level. How much of a diminishing return do you think you get for
spending over 30 times that amount?

Or are you now saying that your previous reference is so much
poppycock?

>> Why don't you get them to face the errors of their ways?
>
>Probably because I think their work delivers good value for the money,

Noted that you think that spending $50,000 is good value.

I don't have a problem with that.

>and have a well-known market research company that says the same thing.

That has nothing to do with whether or not they actually *are* good
value.

>> Why don't you
>> notify them immediately that any speaker over $1500 is facing extreme
>> diminishing returns? After all, one of the "reference web pages" that
>> you tout says so.
>
>Obviously you don't keep up very well Singh, because a few days ago I agreed
>with someone else's deconstruction of that specific point.

Still having trouble keeping track, I see.

And no, you *didn't* "agree".

>> Is it because you're blinded by science?
>
>Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
>conclusions.
>
>> Impressed with labs and sawdust?
>
>Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
>conclusions.
>
>>Is it the smell of the glue that turns you on?
>
>Since all your premises are false Weil, you don't have support for any
>conclusions.
>

Joseph Oberlander

October 8th 03, 06:33 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

(snip)

> Something like that.

I don't build speakers for a living, yet I can think of at least
fifty different things to try to make the sound better. It's
a given that 90% of them will not work as well as planned, but
that's part of the fun - testing and poking around and altering
everything.

Oh - about that acoustic mat material. I bet by putting that on the
inside of the cabinet he could effectively get the same effect as
having much denser cabinet material. The stuff is amazing at
absorbing stray soundwaves. I bet a thin sheet running a few inches
deep between the woofer and tweeter(like a curtain halfway across the box)
would also clean up the midrange. I've never actually used the stuff
for a speaker before, but it seems like it would be very interesting
and a potentially better replacement for the typical filling materials.

Have you ever experimented with the stuff?

Max Holubitsky

October 8th 03, 06:42 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>
> > On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly number
> >> friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part of
> >> products selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's.
> >> They talk a lot about what they do, and I've visited their
> >> workplaces. I've met a number of their co-workers and suppliers as
> >> well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.

Just curious, but this means car speakers, right? Do any of the big 3 still make
speakers in the USA? That has to be a neat job.

Max Holubitsky

October 8th 03, 06:47 PM

>
> >Probably because I think their work delivers good value for the money,
>
> Noted that you think that spending $50,000 is good value.

Context anyone? It's a $50,000 car with speakers in it... not $50,000 speakers.
Combine the sales numbers, with the price range, and Detroit, and it's pretty
easy to figure that out!

That said, I put aftermarket speakers in my car, and the difference was night and
day. The junk Delco supplied wouldn't be out of place in a Califone record
player.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 10:42 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>
>>>
>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>
>>
>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>
>
> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?

I've never paid for sex. You?

trotsky

October 8th 03, 10:48 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>>>>>
>>>>>You wish you could get .001% of their market share.
>>>>
>
>>>>>Of course that would mean actual R&D.
>>>>
>
>>>>I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>>>throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve
>>>>it.
>>>
>
>>>A quickie schlock job with a ridiculously high price isn't going to
>>>solve it either.
>>
>
>>Krueger, you buy used and close-out speakers and you think you're
>>qualified to comment on price?
>
>
> Which speakers do I have that are used and/or close-outs? Well, the Paradigm
> Phantoms I bought about 7 years ago were last year's model.

Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for Vergence
(God knows how you managed to get the name right this time), a speaker
you bought *after* the company was going out of business, rather than
actually supporting the brand by buying it at retail. YOU sat around
and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a weasel
so you could get a deal on the speakers.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 10:50 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>

>>Crawl back in your ****ing rat hole and do us all a favor.
>
>
> Singh, I'm trying to figure out the average time in years between when you
> get your butt kicked and when you finally feel the pain. Seems like RAO
> history says its well over 3.

Which aspect of the New Testament are you trying to emulate here, Krueger?

dave weil

October 8th 03, 11:15 PM

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>
>
>dave weil wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>
>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>
>>>
>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>
>>
>> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>
>
>
>I've never paid for sex. You?

You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

George M. Middius

October 8th 03, 11:18 PM

dave weil said:

> >I've never paid for sex. You?

> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

Unless he just likes to watch........

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 11:28 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>
> >>>George M. Middius wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
> >>>>>>do you have good taste in anything?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.
> >>>>
> >>>>You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
> >>>>"doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
> >>>>would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
> >>>>contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
> >>>>(albeit an off-the-shelf one),
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
> >>
> >>
> >>It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
> >>
> >
> > You wish you could get .001% of their market share.
> >
> > Of course that would mean actual R&D.
>
>
> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.

Especially if you haven't a clue.

>

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 11:33 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>
> >>>trotsky wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>trotsky wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>There you have it, folks.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
> >>>>>>>hunch.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I have.
> >>>
> >
> > Where?
> >
> > They're ****.
> >
> > Brad will build cabinets to any specification you wish.
>
>
> For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
> from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>
I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others recognize this
fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.
>
> > Apparently you don't know **** about cabinet design either, oh wait we
> > covered that when you said it was OK for the box to rattle so it could
> > improve the sound.
>
>
> Generally it's only Arny that's capable of such jealousy.
>
Jealousy? Of what?
>
> > My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
> >
> >>>>do you have good taste in anything?
> >>>>
> >>>
> > He knows enough not to buy **** from you.
>
>
> You're spazzing, Mickey. You need to lie down for awhile.
>
Evasion noted.

Michael Mckelvy

October 8th 03, 11:36 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >dave weil wrote:
> >> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
> >>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
> >>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
> >>
> >>
> >> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
> >
> >
> >
> >I've never paid for sex. You?
>
> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

Some guys even hookers won't ****.

trotsky

October 8th 03, 11:41 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>dave weil wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>
>>>
>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>
>>
>>
>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>
>
> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

Funny how you don't deny your whoring.

Lionel

October 8th 03, 11:41 PM

dave weil wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>dave weil wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>
>>>
>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>
>>
>>
>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>
>
> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

He surely paid for his screwdriver.
Can we consider that this technically advenced and original onanism is
what you call "having sex" ? :o)

dave weil

October 9th 03, 12:07 AM

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:41:14 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>
>
>dave weil wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>>
>>
>> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>
>
>
>Funny how you don't deny your whoring.

Funny how don't claim that you've ever *had* sex either.

You lose.

Again.

I guess I'm the only mother****er on USENET that can take Greg down
with a sentence or two.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 12:08 AM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>>
>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>
>
> Some guys even hookers won't ****.

Now *that's* the voice of experience.

Lionel

October 9th 03, 12:14 AM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> dave weil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>> distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>> simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've never paid for sex. You?
>>>
>>>
>>> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some guys even hookers won't ****.
>
>
>
> Now *that's* the voice of experience.
>
>
This one is very good...
....It remembers me my childhood.

Michael Mckelvy

October 9th 03, 12:19 AM

"The Devil" > wrote in message
news:pcb4ovk5690pv7c886lvd832j3l59gq08i@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:03:21 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
> >> Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
> >> no.
> >
> >
> >Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
> >yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
> >honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
> >asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
> > For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
> >reason to drink.
> >
> >
> >> If your
> >
> >
> >Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!
> >
> >
> > are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
> >> discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
> >> potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
> >> contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
> >> be in it.
> >
> >
> >You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
> >looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
> >with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
> >information and you're a dead duck. Coward.
>
> I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
> crossovers. Thanks.
>
> Any more questions, anyone?
>
> --
> td

Sockpuppet Yustabe

October 9th 03, 01:47 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction
> >>>>>>>>>> that you've always been. Don't try to contaminate me with
> >>>>>>>>>> the night soil of your mind.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You mean those fictional stories about having received
> >>>>>>>>> pedophilic material in the mail from an unknown source.
> >>>>>>>>> Oh....that was you that wrote that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's very much like you sockpuppet Yustabe, to gloss over the
> >>>>>>>> pedophile fiction you've posted, and stated your approval of.
> >>>>>>>> Then, you try to characterize my frequent public objections to
> >>>>>>>> pedophile fiction as itself being pedophile fiction. Same
> >>>>>>>> question I've been asking the rest of your clique: Why are you,
> >>>>>>>> and truth and reason such strangers?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Stop lying.
> >>>>>>> The first reference to Pedophilia was introduced by YOU
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Simply not true. Tell you what sockpuppet Yustabe, you post the
> >>>>>> URL of my alleged first mention of pedophilia on RAO, and then
> >>>>>> I'll set the record straight.
> >>>>
> >>>>> It has already been documented here numerous times.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then you should be able to find it quite easily, sockpuppet
> >>>> Yustabe.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
> >>>>
> >>>> It's dated 4/23/1998.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then we have the "Kevin" incident, which was one of Dr. Gindi's
> >>>> more
> >>> lengthy
> >>>> experiments with his interest on pedophilia on RAO:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=19981025084901.12183.00001064%40ng-fd1.aol
> >>>> .com
> >>>>
> >>>> It's dated 10/25/1998
> >>>>
> >>>> Or this classic from Singh:
> >>>>
> >>>>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=01bda085%242459c780%24543ef1cf%40ibm
> >>>>
> >>>> It's dated 6/25/1998
> >>>>
> >>>> How this classic Derrida post complete with pedophilic references?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.93.970522064538.20721e-100000%4
> >>>> 0thor.internauts.ca
> >>>>
> >>>> It's dated 5/22/1997
> >>>>
> >>>>> You didn't own up to it then, and you are not going to change
> >>>>> now.
> >>
> >>>> As soon as you provide a confirmable date for the post you have in
> >>>> mind sockpuppet Yustabe, we can see who was the first to introduce
> >>>> pedophilia to RAO.
> >>
> >>> Been there, done that (collectively)
> >>
> >> Then you know what the date is. And the date is?
> >>
> >
> > Look it up
> >
> > Its been published here many times.
> > Have fun with Google.
> >
> >>> everybody knows, no reason for you to keep up the pretense.
> >>
> >> What does *everybody* know?
> >>
> >
> > That you ar a turd.
>
> Spoken like the true professional you really are, sockpuppet Yustabe.
>

I am a professional indeed, but not a professional typist.
You are a mere computer repairman, and neither
a good one, nor a successful one. I hope your
disability pension can keep up with inflation.

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Michael Mckelvy

October 9th 03, 02:02 AM

tor 2 u

October 9th 03, 03:15 AM

Arny Krueger wrote in message >:

>
> For example here's someone objecting to Middius' pedophilia on RAO:
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=353fbc3d.1119900%40anarchy.io.com
>
> It's dated 4/23/1998.

Good work, Arn! I always knew that dirty ******* was a pedo queer homo molester.

I think everybody should read the whole entire post and see for themself. I have
cut and pasted it here. Just everybody read it.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:08:33 -0500, Artie > wrote:

>George NAMBLA Middius wrote:
>
>> Give that man a cigar!
>>
>> And a Resistance suit.
>
>
>Yeah, the suit with sleeves that tie in the back.

Wonderful! Perfect! Thank you for a good laugh.

>Artie

OK, wasn't that great? I guess those guys don't like Middius, right? So when
they say anything at all about him, it must mean they are "objecting to Middius'
pedophilia".

Did I get that right Arny? I want to be right all the time. Just like you are.

Arny is My Kroo-Daddy

tor 2 u

October 9th 03, 03:18 AM

Arny Krueger wrote in message >:

> > Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
> > success?
>
> What they have is recipes for avoiding abject technical failure.
>

Wow Arny! That's really deep. I don't know what it means though. Can you please
explain what "technical failure" means?

Arny is My Kroo-Daddy

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 03:23 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is still merely a hopelessly average design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It sounds like you're describing JBLs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wish you could get .001% of their market share.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Of course that would mean actual R&D.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and
>>>>> clearly throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the
>>>>> way to solve it.

>>>> A quickie schlock job with a ridiculously high price isn't going to
>>>> solve it either.

>>> Krueger, you buy used and close-out speakers and you think you're
>>> qualified to comment on price?

>> Which speakers do I have that are used and/or close-outs? Well, the
>> Paradigm Phantoms I bought about 7 years ago were last year's model.
>> Then there are the 5 or more pair of speakers I purchased since then,
which were new,
>> street priced products. So what's your problem, Singh? I got a good deal
7
>> years ago and that makes me a cheapskate?

> Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for Vergence
> (God knows how you managed to get the name right this time), a speaker
> you bought *after* the company was going out of business, rather than
> actually supporting the brand by buying it at retail.

Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their financial
difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were labeled "NHT Pro"
instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public offer, no strings
attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line, my NHT Pro speakers have
the proper markings again.

Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street prices, I
didn't count them as "new, street priced products."

>YOU sat around
> and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
> weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.

Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in financial
difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I bought the NHT Pro
system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain led bailout and subsequent
bankruptcy.

Here's a post I made not too long after I bought them on 5/13/99

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=VTq_2.2321%24xy1.4307%40news.rdc1.mi.h ome.
com

Here's the Vergence Bankruptcy announcement on 12/28/2000

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20001228083800.22382.00000211%40ng-fy1.
aol.com

That's what 18 months AFTER I bought them?

trotsky

October 9th 03, 03:26 AM

dave weil wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:41:14 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>dave weil wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>>>
>>>
>>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>>
>>
>>
>>Funny how you don't deny your whoring.
>
>
> Funny how don't claim that you've ever *had* sex either.
>
> You lose.
>
> Again.
>
> I guess I'm the only mother****er on USENET that can take Greg down
> with a sentence or two.

dave, if you really think I'm a virgin you're getting stupider by the
minute.

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 03:33 AM

trotsky said:

> dave, if you really think I'm a virgin you're getting stupider by the
> minute.

It's generally understood that Suzy (or Sammy) Five-Fingers doesn't
count. Does that clear anything up?

dave weil

October 9th 03, 03:43 AM

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:26:16 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>
>
>dave weil wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:41:14 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Funny how you don't deny your whoring.
>>
>>
>> Funny how don't claim that you've ever *had* sex either.
>>
>> You lose.
>>
>> Again.
>>
>> I guess I'm the only mother****er on USENET that can take Greg down
>> with a sentence or two.
>
>
>dave, if you really think I'm a virgin you're getting stupider by the
>minute.

zzzzzzzzz

Yep, I'm one of the few that can render Greg impotent.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 04:11 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>

>>Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for Vergence
>>(God knows how you managed to get the name right this time), a speaker
>>you bought *after* the company was going out of business, rather than
>>actually supporting the brand by buying it at retail.
>
>
> Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their financial
> difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were labeled "NHT Pro"
> instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public offer, no strings
> attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line, my NHT Pro speakers have
> the proper markings again.

Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.

> Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street prices, I
> didn't count them as "new, street priced products."

Can you translate that into English, please?

>>YOU sat around
>>and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>
>
> Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in financial
> difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I bought the NHT Pro
> system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain led bailout and subsequent
> bankruptcy.

That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality. I seem
to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought at an
outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 06:04 AM

>>I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.

OTOH, spending it wisely to anaylze it and improve upon the basic
design is wrong exactly how?

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 06:17 AM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:

>>For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
>>from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>>
>
> I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others recognize this
> fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.

Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs. Something like
$10 in materials at most in his speakers. Wood is pretty inexpensive,
and MDF doubly so.

The rest is simple labor. A pro can crank out the parts for a dozen speakers
in an hour, including mitered joints, cutouts, and whatnot.

$65 each is - gosh - I'd make them myself if I could get that much money.
Oh - Woodworking is another one of my skills. No woodworker makes $50 for
six pieces of wood clamped and glued together by the time it gets through
the distirbution chain.

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 06:26 AM

Obie Wan Warp Speed -- NOt! said:

> A pro can crank out the parts for a dozen speakers
> in an hour, including mitered joints, cutouts, and whatnot.

How preposterous that claim is. Even excluding time spent changing
blades and bits, constructing jigs and guides, and milling the stock
to begin with, only the Flash could come close to 4 hours for a
dozen speakers.

You are full of it once again, Obie.

Lionel

October 9th 03, 07:40 AM

Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the business
(sales) is totally twisted.
He's blending sales and charity. ;-)

trotsky wrote:

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>
>>> Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for Vergence
>>> (God knows how you managed to get the name right this time), a speaker
>>> you bought *after* the company was going out of business, rather than
>>> actually supporting the brand by buying it at retail.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their financial
>> difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were labeled "NHT
>> Pro"
>> instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public offer, no strings
>> attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line, my NHT Pro speakers
>> have
>> the proper markings again.
>
>
>
> Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
> product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.
>
>
>> Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street prices, I
>> didn't count them as "new, street priced products."
>
>
>
> Can you translate that into English, please?
>
>
>>> YOU sat around
>>> and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>> weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in financial
>> difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I bought the NHT
>> Pro
>> system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain led bailout and
>> subsequent
>> bankruptcy.
>
>
>
> That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality. I seem
> to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought at an
> outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.
>

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:08 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>
>>> Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for
>>> Vergence (God knows how you managed to get the name right this
>>> time), a speaker you bought *after* the company was going out of
>>> business, rather than actually supporting the brand by buying it at
>>> retail.
>>
>>
>> Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their
>> financial difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were
>> labeled "NHT Pro" instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public
>> offer, no strings attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line,
>> my NHT Pro speakers have the proper markings again.
>
>
> Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
> product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.

So paying their asking price for product isn't supporting them?

>> Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street
>> prices, I didn't count them as "new, street priced products."

> Can you translate that into English, please?

Time to sign up for that remidial reading class, Singh.

>>> YOU sat around
>>> and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>> weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>
>> Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in
>> financial difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I
>> bought the NHT Pro system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain
>> led bailout and subsequent bankruptcy.

> That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality.

Not at all. A offer was made in good faith and I accepted it in good faith.

> I seem to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought
at an
> outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.

I've paid regular net for a great deal of audio gear. If I get a break, I'm
supposed to turn it down?

What sort of business man are you anyway, Singh?

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:10 AM

"Lionel" > wrote in message

> Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the business
> (sales) is totally twisted.

> He's blending sales and charity. ;-)

Exactly, and he's trying to do it with my money! That must have been a heck
of a store he used to work for...

> trotsky wrote:
>
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>> Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for
>>>> Vergence (God knows how you managed to get the name right this
>>>> time), a speaker you bought *after* the company was going out of
>>>> business, rather than actually supporting the brand by buying it
>>>> at retail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their
>>> financial difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were
>>> labeled "NHT Pro"
>>> instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public offer, no strings
>>> attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line, my NHT Pro
>>> speakers have
>>> the proper markings again.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
>> product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.
>>
>>
>>> Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street
>>> prices, I didn't count them as "new, street priced products."
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you translate that into English, please?
>>
>>
>>>> YOU sat around
>>>> and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>>> weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in
>>> financial difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I
>>> bought the NHT Pro
>>> system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain led bailout and
>>> subsequent
>>> bankruptcy.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality. I
>> seem to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought
>> at an outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:13 AM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

>
> I guess I'm the only mother****er on USENET that can take Greg down
> with a sentence or two.

You the dominatrix of RAO, Weil!

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:15 AM

"Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message

>>> Probably because I think their work delivers good value for the
>>> money,
>>
>> Noted that you think that spending $50,000 is good value.
>
> Context anyone? It's a $50,000 car with speakers in it... not $50,000
> speakers. Combine the sales numbers, with the price range, and
> Detroit, and it's pretty easy to figure that out!

Thanks for seeing through Weil's rediculous posturing, Max.

> That said, I put aftermarket speakers in my car, and the difference
> was night and day. The junk Delco supplied wouldn't be out of place
> in a Califone record player.

There are a number of reasons why there are some cars at the top of customer
satisfaction reports, and some at the bottom. This is one of them. Not
everybody is trying as hard as my friends.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:20 AM

"Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly
>>>> number friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part
>>>> of products selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's.
>>>> They talk a lot about what they do, and I've visited their
>>>> workplaces. I've met a number of their co-workers and suppliers as
>>>> well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.
>
> Just curious, but this means car speakers, right?

Right, twice now on just this topic! BTW I cant believe that Weil let this
slip by him.

> Do any of the big 3 still make speakers in the USA?

Typically car speaker drivers are made by subcontractors, but Delco (now
Delphi) may have a speaker plant. AFAIK neither Ford nor Chrysler do. All
three still make electronics but they buy a lot of it, too.

> That has to be a neat job.

Regrettably, one of the few remaining manufacturing-related true audio
engineering jobs in the US.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:24 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> Something like that.
>
> I don't build speakers for a living, yet I can think of at least
> fifty different things to try to make the sound better. It's
> a given that 90% of them will not work as well as planned, but
> that's part of the fun - testing and poking around and altering
> everything.
>
> Oh - about that acoustic mat material. I bet by putting that on the
> inside of the cabinet he could effectively get the same effect as
> having much denser cabinet material.

My sources say it's highly over-rated in its intended application - damping
car bodies. But that may be because most car bodies come well-damped from
the factory.

> The stuff is amazing at absorbing stray soundwaves.

IME cross-bracing has a better price/performance.

> I bet a thin sheet running a few inches
> deep between the woofer and tweeter(like a curtain halfway across the
> box) would also clean up the midrange. I've never actually used the
> stuff for a speaker before, but it seems like it would be very
> interesting and a potentially better replacement for the typical
> filling materials.

> Have you ever experimented with the stuff?

No, but I've done some other pretty heroic things to damp cabinets, and
found that a good stiff box with lots of cross-bracing and the right overall
dimensions is hard to improve on.

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 10:25 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>
>
>>> Crawl back in your ****ing rat hole and do us all a favor.

>> Singh, I'm trying to figure out the average time in years between
>> when you get your butt kicked and when you finally feel the pain.
>> Seems like RAO history says its well over 3.

> Which aspect of the New Testament are you trying to emulate here,
> Krueger?

The parts that implicity suggest we should learn from history.

Lionel

October 9th 03, 12:41 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the business
>>(sales) is totally twisted.
>
>
>>He's blending sales and charity. ;-)
>
>
> Exactly, and he's trying to do it with my money! That must have been a heck
> of a store he used to work for...
>

Perhaps he is thinking about Jupiter Audio futur... ;-)

>
>>trotsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message

>>>>
>>>
>>>>>Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for
>>>>>Vergence (God knows how you managed to get the name right this
>>>>>time), a speaker you bought *after* the company was going out of
>>>>>business, rather than actually supporting the brand by buying it
>>>>>at retail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their
>>>>financial difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were
>>>>labeled "NHT Pro"
>>>>instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public offer, no strings
>>>>attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line, my NHT Pro
>>>>speakers have
>>>>the proper markings again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
>>>product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street
>>>>prices, I didn't count them as "new, street priced products."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Can you translate that into English, please?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>YOU sat around
>>>>>and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>>>>weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in
>>>>financial difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I
>>>>bought the NHT Pro
>>>>system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain led bailout and
>>>>subsequent
>>>>bankruptcy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality. I
>>>seem to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought
>>>at an outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.
>
>
>

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 01:15 PM

"Lionel" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the
>>> business (sales) is totally twisted.
>>
>>
>>> He's blending sales and charity. ;-)
>>
>>
>> Exactly, and he's trying to do it with my money! That must have been
>> a heck of a store he used to work for...
>>
>
> Perhaps he is thinking about Jupiter Audio futur... ;-)

Score!

trotsky

October 9th 03, 01:21 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.
>>
>
> OTOH, spending it wisely to anaylze it and improve upon the basic
> design is wrong exactly how?

What improvements are necessary, Joe? Be as specific as possible, troll.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 01:24 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>>> For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
>>> from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>>>
>>
>> I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others
>> recognize this
>> fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.
>
>
> Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs. Something like
> $10 in materials at most in his speakers.

Okay, that made me laugh. Your trolling is getting worse and worse, Joe.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 01:35 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message

>>>
>>
>>>>Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for
>>>>Vergence (God knows how you managed to get the name right this
>>>>time), a speaker you bought *after* the company was going out of
>>>>business, rather than actually supporting the brand by buying it at
>>>>retail.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their
>>>financial difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were
>>>labeled "NHT Pro" instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up public
>>>offer, no strings attached. Ironically, now that NHT has the line,
>>>my NHT Pro speakers have the proper markings again.
>>
>>
>>Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
>>product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.
>
>
> So paying their asking price for product isn't supporting them?

That's exactly true--you're stating that you have no interest in their
product at the regular price with your purchase.

>>>Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street
>>>prices, I didn't count them as "new, street priced products."
>>
>
>>Can you translate that into English, please?
>
>
> Time to sign up for that remidial reading class, Singh.

How does that differ from a sun dial reading class?

>>>>YOU sat around
>>>>and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>>>weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>>>
>>>Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in
>>>financial difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I
>>>bought the NHT Pro system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain
>>>led bailout and subsequent bankruptcy.
>>
>
>>That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality.
>
>
> Not at all. A offer was made in good faith and I accepted it in good faith.

What a **** eating grin you must have when you type the word "faith".

>> I seem to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player bought
>
> at an
>
>>outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.
>
>
> I've paid regular net for a great deal of audio gear. If I get a break, I'm
> supposed to turn it down?
>
> What sort of business man are you anyway, Singh?

One that recognizes your type of mentality and will eventually use that
to my advantage.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 01:36 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message

>>
>>>>Crawl back in your ****ing rat hole and do us all a favor.
>>>
>
>>>Singh, I'm trying to figure out the average time in years between
>>>when you get your butt kicked and when you finally feel the pain.
>>>Seems like RAO history says its well over 3.
>>
>
>>Which aspect of the New Testament are you trying to emulate here,
>>Krueger?
>
>
> The parts that implicity suggest we should learn from history.

I agree--will you die for my sins, please?

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 01:51 PM

trotsky salivated:

> That's exactly true--you're stating

Good boy! Good dog! Here's your biscuit.

> How does that differ from a sun dial

Bad dog! Bad boy! Sit!

One step forwards and one step back......

Arny Krueger

October 9th 03, 01:55 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>

>>> Arny Krueger wrote:

>>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>>>

>>>>> Krueger, you are a ****ing moron. You just put in a plug for
>>>>> Vergence (God knows how you managed to get the name right this
>>>>> time), a speaker you bought *after* the company was going out of
>>>>> business, rather than actually supporting the brand by buying it
>>>>> at retail.

>>>> Wrong. I bought my NHT Pro system from Vergence prior to their
>>>> financial difficulties. I did get a deal on them because they were
>>>> labeled "NHT Pro" instead of "Vergence". It was a straight-up
>>>> public offer, no strings attached. Ironically, now that NHT has
>>>> the line, my NHT Pro speakers have the proper markings again.

>>> Whatever. You had the chance to support Vergence by buying their
>>> product and instead you were a cheapass and bought it on closeout.

>> So paying their asking price for product isn't supporting them?

> That's exactly true--you're stating that you have no interest in their
> product at the regular price with your purchase.

LOL!

>>>> Since I did get the NHT Pro system at a discount below street
>>>> prices, I didn't count them as "new, street priced products."

>>> Can you translate that into English, please?

>> Time to sign up for that remedial reading class, Singh.

> How does that differ from a sun dial reading class?

Lame.

>>>>> YOU sat around
>>>>> and waited for the company to do badly before striking out like a
>>>>> weasel so you could get a deal on the speakers.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong, I bought the NHT Pro system well before Vergence were in
>>>> financial difficulties. Check the google record - it shows that I
>>>> bought the NHT Pro system maybe a year or more before the Ed Shain
>>>> led bailout and subsequent bankruptcy.
>>>
>>
>>> That's immaterial: you've admitted to your closeout mentality.
>>
>>
>> Not at all. A offer was made in good faith and I accepted it in good
>> faith.

> What a **** eating grin you must have when you type the word "faith".

Irrelevant.

>>> I seem to remember something about a super cheap Sony CD player
>>> bought at an
>>> outlet store--you're only interested in buying on the cheap.

>> I've paid regular net for a great deal of audio gear. If I get a
>> break, I'm supposed to turn it down?

>> What sort of business man are you anyway, Singh?

> One that recognizes your type of mentality and will eventually use
> that to my advantage.

So Singh, that means you plan to grow a brain so you can appeal to a better
class of customer?

Very good.

That means that no matter what everybody says Singh, there's still hope for
you, and even room for the application of faith...

dave weil

October 9th 03, 03:05 PM

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 05:20:06 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message

>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:46:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> building speakers is generally not my thing. But I have goodly
>>>>> number friends who design speaker systems that are a critical part
>>>>> of products selling for $13,000-50,000, that sell in the 100,000's.
>>>>> They talk a lot about what they do, and I've visited their
>>>>> workplaces. I've met a number of their co-workers and suppliers as
>>>>> well. Note, I live in the Detroit area.
>>
>> Just curious, but this means car speakers, right?
>
>Right, twice now on just this topic! BTW I cant believe that Weil let this
>slip by him.

Yes, imagine my surprise that we went from discussing home speakers
with speakers designed for noise-generating chambers.

I should have known that Arnold wouldn't know anyone manufacturing
$50,000 speakers, right?

So, I have to still wonder how he can stomach his friends over at
Buggtussel manufacturing speakers upwards of $10,000 *and* selling
vinyl-related products.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 07:34 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>"Lionel" > wrote in message

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the
>>>>business (sales) is totally twisted.
>>>
>>>
>>>>He's blending sales and charity. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Exactly, and he's trying to do it with my money! That must have been
>>>a heck of a store he used to work for...
>>>
>>
>>Perhaps he is thinking about Jupiter Audio futur... ;-)
>
>
> Score!

Arny, are you on record as supporting sockpuppets?

Lionel

October 9th 03, 08:10 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hereafter Gregory Singh demonstrate that is conception of the
>>>>> business (sales) is totally twisted.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> He's blending sales and charity. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly, and he's trying to do it with my money! That must have been
>>>> a heck of a store he used to work for...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps he is thinking about Jupiter Audio futur... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Score!
>
>
>
> Arny, are you on record as supporting sockpuppets?
>
>
Are you afraid about sockpuppets Mr. Gregory Singh ?
Oh yes you are !

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 09:57 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>>
>>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>>> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> OTOH, spending it wisely to anaylze it and improve upon the basic
>> design is wrong exactly how?
>
>
>
> What improvements are necessary, Joe?

Surely there are things that any first design could do better.

Claiming perfection the first time out is... well, it never happens.
Fact of life and how the universe operates.

So, what areas do YOU think it could be improved in? That's a better
question.

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 10:05 PM

Obie said to Gregipus:

> So, what areas do YOU think it could be improved in? That's a better
> question.

That's pretty obvious. Gregipus would like to tweak the public
comments about his little project of audio charity. He would require
every comment to contain one or more phrases from the following list:

excellent sound
superb design
magnificent appearance
spectacular value
unsurpassed performance
any use of "perfect" or "perfection"

Modulating reviews in this fashion would bring them into line with the
reality he knows to be real.

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 10:13 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wan Warp Speed -- NOt! said:
>
>
>>A pro can crank out the parts for a dozen speakers
>>in an hour, including mitered joints, cutouts, and whatnot.
>
>
> How preposterous that claim is. Even excluding time spent changing
> blades and bits, constructing jigs and guides, and milling the stock
> to begin with, only the Flash could come close to 4 hours for a
> dozen speakers.

Blades? A good shop can have 2-3 machines set up in not a lot
of time. The stock would come pre-milled and sanded, of course.
Let someone else do that.

So, they have some setup time. Then they start cranking these out
hour after hour. A few hours making the side pieces, a few hours
making the rear and fronts(doing like 40-50 at a time, assembly-line
fashion).

A day's work should have a huge pile of parts ready to assemble
together. Gluing them together is a PITA, but then again, they
could always use dowels or various joints that don't require
dozens of clamps.

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 10:16 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> IME cross-bracing has a better price/performance.
>

See? Unlike Greg, I ask and I learn. One more thing to add
to my asked about it, doesn't really work list about speakers.

>>I bet a thin sheet running a few inches
>>deep between the woofer and tweeter(like a curtain halfway across the
>>box) would also clean up the midrange. I've never actually used the
>>stuff for a speaker before, but it seems like it would be very
>>interesting and a potentially better replacement for the typical
>>filling materials.
>
>>Have you ever experimented with the stuff?
>
> No, but I've done some other pretty heroic things to damp cabinets, and
> found that a good stiff box with lots of cross-bracing and the right overall
> dimensions is hard to improve on.

K. One last question about this - what about high-frequency absorbtion?
It might be useful at some point for this.

Joseph Oberlander

October 9th 03, 10:17 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>>> For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
>>>> from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others
>>> recognize this
>>> fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.
>>
>>
>>
>> Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs. Something
>> like
>> $10 in materials at most in his speakers.
>
>
>
> Okay, that made me laugh. Your trolling is getting worse and worse, Joe.
>

How much is a couple board-ft of lumber directly from the mill? A: not much.

Max Holubitsky

October 9th 03, 10:20 PM

> > That said, I put aftermarket speakers in my car, and the difference
> > was night and day. The junk Delco supplied wouldn't be out of place
> > in a Califone record player.
>
> There are a number of reasons why there are some cars at the top of customer
> satisfaction reports, and some at the bottom. This is one of them. Not
> everybody is trying as hard as my friends.

Yeah that's true, mind you, My speakers are from the base stereo system in a low
end Detroit car... not as though I spent money on the "premium" sound system. I
bought the car used, while I was still in university, and wasn't exactly
overflowing with extra cash at the time ;)

I think the OEM speakers were made in Mexico by CTS, but I could be wrong. I've
come accross quite a few cars with decent OEM sound systems, mine just dosen't
happen to be one of them.

Do your friends give you access to surplus car audio stuff? It could be an
interesting source for goofy rainy day projects - one thing I've always wanted
to try, is a large multiple speaker array - either a line source design, or a
"sweet sixteen" type design. A bunch of cheap 4x6 or 5" delco speakers would be
perfect for such a project.

Max Holubitsky

October 9th 03, 10:23 PM

> > That has to be a neat job.
>
> Regrettably, one of the few remaining manufacturing-related true audio
> engineering jobs in the US.

I hope it lasts. North American industry usually seems to be its own worse
enemy.

trotsky

October 9th 03, 10:33 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>>>> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> OTOH, spending it wisely to anaylze it and improve upon the basic
>>> design is wrong exactly how?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What improvements are necessary, Joe?
>
>
> Surely there are things that any first design could do better.

Oh, I assumed you already knew. Can you come back when you know
something, buddy?

dave weil

October 9th 03, 10:35 PM

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:33:16 GMT, trotsky > wrote:

>
>
>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>> trotsky wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I've already surveyed the marketplace for years, Mickey, and clearly
>>>>>> throwing more money at a problem isn't necessarily the way to solve it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, spending it wisely to anaylze it and improve upon the basic
>>>> design is wrong exactly how?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What improvements are necessary, Joe?
>>
>>
>> Surely there are things that any first design could do better.
>
>
>Oh, I assumed you already knew. Can you come back when you know
>something, buddy?

How about the internal wiring?

trotsky

October 9th 03, 10:35 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets come
>>>>> from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others
>>>> recognize this
>>>> fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs. Something
>>> like
>>> $10 in materials at most in his speakers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Okay, that made me laugh. Your trolling is getting worse and worse, Joe.
>>
>
> How much is a couple board-ft of lumber directly from the mill? A: not
> much.

My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of oak
veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?

Lionel

October 9th 03, 10:39 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> trotsky wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> For $65 a piece, per Joe Oberlander? Is this where your cabinets
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> from, Mickey? You're clearly on a first name basis with the guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have him build cabinets for me. He's a pro and many others
>>>>> recognize this
>>>>> fact, Legacy and Kinergetics had cabinets built by Woodstyle.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs.
>>>> Something like
>>>> $10 in materials at most in his speakers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, that made me laugh. Your trolling is getting worse and worse,
>>> Joe.
>>>
>>
>> How much is a couple board-ft of lumber directly from the mill? A:
>> not much.
>
>
>
> My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of oak
> veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?
>
>
Copies of invoices ?

Max Holubitsky

October 9th 03, 10:47 PM

> My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of oak
> veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?

Someone should go to Home Depot and check this out... last time I did, I was
looking at plywood with oak veneer, for 3/4" it was way less than $100 a sheet.
It's expensive, but it's not soemthing that's going to break the bank. I wonder
how many Europas one could get per sheet?

On the other hand though, despite the fact that oak is not my favourite wood,
it's a nice touch to have real veneer rather than vinyl.

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 11:13 PM

Obie Wanna Slice His Fingers Off said:

> >>A pro can crank out the parts for a dozen speakers
> >>in an hour, including mitered joints, cutouts, and whatnot.

> > How preposterous that claim is. Even excluding time spent changing
> > blades and bits, constructing jigs and guides, and milling the stock
> > to begin with, only the Flash could come close to 4 hours for a
> > dozen speakers.

> Blades? A good shop can have 2-3 machines set up in not a lot
> of time. The stock would come pre-milled and sanded, of course.
> Let someone else do that.

This is the same way Krooger explains things. "The argument is what I
meant, not what I said."

> So, they have some setup time. Then they start cranking these out
> hour after hour. A few hours making the side pieces, a few hours
> making the rear and fronts(doing like 40-50 at a time, assembly-line
> fashion).

Sorry, but you've drifted away from your "a pro" paradigm. Now you're
well into "a professionally equipped shop with multiple duplicate
machines and craftsmen". That is to say, a factory.

> A day's work should have a huge pile of parts ready to assemble
> together. Gluing them together is a PITA, but then again, they
> could always use dowels or various joints that don't require
> dozens of clamps.

So you admit you were full of **** before, right?

George M. Middius

October 9th 03, 11:16 PM

Obie Wanna No Knots, Mama said:

> >> Too bad Greg doesn't know what finished wood really costs. Something
> >> like $10 in materials at most in his speakers.

> > Okay, that made me laugh. Your trolling is getting worse and worse, Joe.

> How much is a couple board-ft of lumber directly from the mill? A: not much.

"A couple" usually means two or three, not 10 to 20. Unless you know
where to buy perfect lumber and you're going to slice it into veneer
yourself.

Michael Mckelvy

October 10th 03, 02:46 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "dave weil" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>dave weil wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
> >>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
> >>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I've never paid for sex. You?
> >>
> >>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
> >
> >
> > Some guys even hookers won't ****.
>
>
> Now *that's* the voice of experience.
>
>
An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the Hutt in
the picture from your web site. :-(

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 05:17 AM

trotsky wrote:

> My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of oak
> veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?

Was I talking about your costs? No. I was talking about what materials
if bought from the mill/distributor cost.

Veneer? Gheez - buy it and put it on yourself if you really want
to do it. MY estimate was not for fancy extras like staining, laquer,
or applying veneer - just a good box, ready to dress up.

That you are paying what you are - I'd seriously be tempted to
design my own cabinets at over $100 a pair.

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 07:35 AM

Max Holubitsky wrote:

>>My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of oak
>>veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?
>
>
> Someone should go to Home Depot and check this out... last time I did, I was
> looking at plywood with oak veneer, for 3/4" it was way less than $100 a sheet.
> It's expensive, but it's not soemthing that's going to break the bank. I wonder
> how many Europas one could get per sheet?

That's retail as well. With his business/reseller license, he could do directly
to the mill or local distributor, just like Home Depot does(course not at their
level of discount). Wood is really not that expensive a commodity unless it's
rainforest wood, or something difficult to work with like Mahogony.

MDF is cheap stuff. Made out of scraps by the mills for pennies a board-foot
unfinished. Only particle-board is cheaper.

> On the other hand though, despite the fact that oak is not my favourite wood,
> it's a nice touch to have real veneer rather than vinyl.

Q: what is Greg using? MDF? For the price he's paying, he should be getting
better stuff.

Part five of the R.A.O. FAQ lists materials for cabinets and their properties.
There are several types of MDF-like wood, though. The best I've seen is
made out of little chips/splinters of wood and epoxy resin. It's very hard
to cut, heavy as hell, but better than MDF. If I was making speakers, I'd
use this or HDF instead.(iirc, they use this for roofing and it makes plywood
look like junk)

If I was making $1000+ speakers, I'd at least use something better than
normal Home Depot MDF. (they use Georgia Pacific last I checked - not
bad stuff, actually)

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 07:40 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

> Sorry, but you've drifted away from your "a pro" paradigm. Now you're
> well into "a professionally equipped shop with multiple duplicate
> machines and craftsmen". That is to say, a factory.
>

My high-school woodshop could do this. Of course, it has a professional
quality table saw, and all the basic tools. This is what I would
expect a good woodshop to have.

Note, I wasn't talking about YOU or I doing it, but what could
be done with the right tools. Working with wood isn't that
difficult. They even sell pre-finished laminated MDF. Cut,
drill, insert dowels(or whatever method you decide - I like dowels
every 3-4 inches - YMMV), glue it together, and there you go.

You or I? sure - takes more time - but the point is that the
price you are paying for those cabinets is amazingly high over
the cost of doing it yourself.

Michael Mckelvy

October 10th 03, 08:05 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >
> >>Arny Krueger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true,
> >>
> > such
> >
> >>>as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us
> >>
> > (but
> >
> >>>apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
> >>>crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical
abilities.
> >>
> >>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
> >>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
> >>than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
> >>good to go.
> >>
> >
> > But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
doesn't
> > really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers. Text book
formulae
> > and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his abilities. Forty
bucks
> > to Madisound and some cheap drivers and suddently he thinks he's a
designer.
> >
> > There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him from
> > buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to design
and
> > measure the performance of a speaker system.
>
>
> Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
> success?

Do you? It would seem the only recipe you have is how to get something
anybody can get with a phone call to Madisound.

If so, you are a couple of the most clueless *******s I've
> seen in all my life. I figure the website had to really bother you:
> what did you have, one page on Geocities? With a picture of a speaker
> in your front yard? You're a joke, Mickey, and we both know it.
>
The difference is I put the money into the SPEAKER.
I also actually did the design.

trotsky

October 10th 03, 10:33 AM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>dave weil wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go the
>>>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's a
>>>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>>>>
>>>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>>>
>>>
>>>Some guys even hookers won't ****.
>>
>>
>>Now *that's* the voice of experience.
>>
>>
>
> An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the Hutt in
> the picture from your web site. :-(

Mickey, you're too stupid to realize you shot yourself in the foot.
Your comment meant you were on intimate terms with hookers. You're not
denying this, right?

trotsky

October 10th 03, 10:44 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>
>> My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of
>> oak veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?
>
>
> Was I talking about your costs? No. I was talking about what materials
> if bought from the mill/distributor cost.
>
> Veneer? Gheez - buy it and put it on yourself if you really want
> to do it. MY estimate was not for fancy extras like staining, laquer,
> or applying veneer - just a good box, ready to dress up.

You're backpedalling quite a bit here, Joe. Are you admitting you were
just trolling to begin with?

trotsky

October 10th 03, 10:46 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

> If I was making $1000+ speakers, I'd at least use something better than
> normal Home Depot MDF. (they use Georgia Pacific last I checked - not
> bad stuff, actually)

What are your JBLs made from, troll?

trotsky

October 10th 03, 10:47 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> George M. Middius wrote:
>
>
>> Sorry, but you've drifted away from your "a pro" paradigm. Now you're
>> well into "a professionally equipped shop with multiple duplicate
>> machines and craftsmen". That is to say, a factory.
>>
>
> My high-school woodshop could do this.

Please name the commercially available speakers made in high school
woodshops. Thanks in advance.

trotsky

October 10th 03, 10:51 AM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true,
>>>>
>>>such
>>>
>>>
>>>>>as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us
>>>>
>>>(but
>>>
>>>
>>>>>apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
>>>>>crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical
>>>>
> abilities.
>
>>>>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
>>>>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
>>>>than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
>>>>good to go.
>>>>
>>>
>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
>>
> doesn't
>
>>>really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers. Text book
>>
> formulae
>
>>>and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his abilities. Forty
>>
> bucks
>
>>>to Madisound and some cheap drivers and suddently he thinks he's a
>>
> designer.
>
>>>There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him from
>>>buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to design
>>
> and
>
>>>measure the performance of a speaker system.
>>
>>
>>Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
>>success?
>
>
> Do you?

So you're saying you can't answer the question. That was easy.

It would seem the only recipe you have is how to get something
> anybody can get with a phone call to Madisound.

That will get a website put together, sure. You're all confused, Mickey.

> If so, you are a couple of the most clueless *******s I've
>
>>seen in all my life. I figure the website had to really bother you:
>>what did you have, one page on Geocities? With a picture of a speaker
>>in your front yard? You're a joke, Mickey, and we both know it.
>>
>
> The difference is I put the money into the SPEAKER.
> I also actually did the design.

And I'm sure your "friends" appreciate it.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 03, 12:18 PM

"Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message

>> My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of
>> oak veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?

> Someone should go to Home Depot and check this out... last time I
> did, I was looking at plywood with oak veneer, for 3/4" it was way
> less than $100 a sheet.

Way less. Even less wholesale, as most professional cabinet shops buy it.

Veneered MDF is generally cheaper than plywood.

>It's expensive, but it's not something that's
> going to break the bank. I wonder how many Europas one could get per
> sheet?

Saturn Europa speakers are roughly 1' by 2' by 8" deep. Total surface area
is less than 9 square feet. There are 48 square feet in a standard sheet of
MDF. A cabinet maker should be able to cut 5 or more Europas out of a
standard sheet of wood, with reasonable allowances for cutting losses.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 03, 12:26 PM

"Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message

> Do your friends give you access to surplus car audio stuff?

They're engineers, so they only see small quantities.

> It could be an interesting source for goofy rainy day projects - one
thing
> I've always wanted to try, is a large multiple speaker array - either
> a line source design, or a "sweet sixteen" type design.

The sweet-16 technology has been thoroughly deconstructed.

However, a lot of exciting things are being done with line arrays, with
electronic phase control. That ends up being a little bit of carpentry and
lot of time spent with DSPs.

>A bunch of cheap 4x6 or 5" delco speakers would be perfect for such a
project.

From time to time some of the mail order speaker retailers send out flyers
with what are obviously automotive surplus drivers. You need to get on some
mailing lists.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 03, 12:33 PM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> IME cross-bracing has a better price/performance.

> See? Unlike Greg, I ask and I learn.

Trust me, I've never been confused about your relative intellectual powers!
Greg is an amazing person - if he really has that EE it's a true mystery how
he managed to remain so uninformed about how electricity and electronics
work.

> One more thing to add
> to my asked about it, doesn't really work list about speakers.

BTW I was looking around at wood, and came up with some sources for an
acoustical wood product with veneer on one side and some viscoelastic
substance on the back. It's sold for walls and ceilings. Whole 'nuther thing
than speaker boxes.

http://www.decoustics.com/finishes/solo/tech-info/techinfo-pg1.html

>>> I bet a thin sheet running a few inches
>>> deep between the woofer and tweeter(like a curtain halfway across
>>> the box) would also clean up the midrange. I've never actually
>>> used the stuff for a speaker before, but it seems like it would be
>>> very interesting and a potentially better replacement for the
>>> typical filling materials.

>>> Have you ever experimented with the stuff?

>> No, but I've done some other pretty heroic things to damp cabinets,
>> and found that a good stiff box with lots of cross-bracing and the
>> right overall dimensions is hard to improve on.

> K. One last question about this - what about high-frequency
> absorbtion? It might be useful at some point for this.

Well that's just it. IME reflection from the speaker enclosure is not a bad
thing if you manage it well. Given how tough it is to make a practical
speaker that incorporates a wide-band absorber, it seems to make more sense
to try to use the reflections and refractions to an advantage. Looking at
successful speaker designs, I don't think this is a new idea! ;-)

Arny Krueger

October 10th 03, 12:35 PM

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> dave weil wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can
>>>>>>> go the distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you
>>>>>>> look--that's a simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never paid for sex. You?
>>>>
>>>> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some guys even hookers won't ****.
>>
>>
>> Now *that's* the voice of experience.
>>
>>
> An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the
> Hutt in the picture from your web site. :-(

That's his good side, too!

trotsky

October 10th 03, 12:42 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Max Holubitsky" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>>My cabinets are made with pre-veneered MDF with the highest grade of
>>>oak veneer. Care to guess again, Joe?
>>
>
>>Someone should go to Home Depot and check this out... last time I
>>did, I was looking at plywood with oak veneer, for 3/4" it was way
>>less than $100 a sheet.
>
>
> Way less. Even less wholesale, as most professional cabinet shops buy it.
>
> Veneered MDF is generally cheaper than plywood.

Apparently you don't have a clue about wood, Arny, but I'm sure your
wife tells you that all the time.

>>It's expensive, but it's not something that's
>>going to break the bank. I wonder how many Europas one could get per
>>sheet?
>
>
> Saturn Europa speakers

Say what?

Michael Mckelvy

October 10th 03, 01:51 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>
> >>>"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>dave weil wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can go
the
> >>>>>>>distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you look--that's
a
> >>>>>>>simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
> >>>>
> >>>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Some guys even hookers won't ****.
> >>
> >>
> >>Now *that's* the voice of experience.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the Hutt
in
> > the picture from your web site. :-(
>
>
> Mickey, you're too stupid to realize you shot yourself in the foot.
> Your comment meant you were on intimate terms with hookers. You're not
> denying this, right?
>
>
Only in your mind. One needn't consort woth hookers to know that even they
have standards.

How long has it been since you last paid for sex?

Michael Mckelvy

October 10th 03, 01:52 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> dave weil wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky >
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can
> >>>>>>> go the distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you
> >>>>>>> look--that's a simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've never paid for sex. You?
> >>>>
> >>>> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some guys even hookers won't ****.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now *that's* the voice of experience.
> >>
> >>
> > An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the
> > Hutt in the picture from your web site. :-(
>
> That's his good side, too!
>
>
A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.

Michael Mckelvy

October 10th 03, 01:55 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Arny Krueger wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be
true,
> >>>>
> >>>such
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of
us
> >>>>
> >>>(but
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre
loudspeaker
> >>>>>crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical
> >>>>
> > abilities.
> >
> >>>>I personally think it is possible. It just requires reading and
> >>>>learning and a few breadboard kits and parts. Shoot, It's no different
> >>>>than studying to get a radio license. A few months later and you are
> >>>>good to go.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE. He apparently
> >>
> > doesn't
> >
> >>>really know enough to do his own design work on Xovers. Text book
> >>
> > formulae
> >
> >>>and trial and error correction seem to be beyond his abilities. Forty
> >>
> > bucks
> >
> >>>to Madisound and some cheap drivers and suddently he thinks he's a
> >>
> > designer.
> >
> >>>There's nothing but his own sloth and probably poverty keeping him from
> >>>buying the same software and hardware that I and others use to design
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>>measure the performance of a speaker system.
> >>
> >>
> >>Mickey, seriously, do you honestly think Joe and you have recipes for
> >>success?
> >
> >
> > Do you?
>
>
> So you're saying you can't answer the question. That was easy.
>
>
> It would seem the only recipe you have is how to get something
> > anybody can get with a phone call to Madisound.
>
>
> That will get a website put together, sure. You're all confused, Mickey.
>
>
> > If so, you are a couple of the most clueless *******s I've
> >
> >>seen in all my life. I figure the website had to really bother you:
> >>what did you have, one page on Geocities? With a picture of a speaker
> >>in your front yard? You're a joke, Mickey, and we both know it.
> >>
> >
> > The difference is I put the money into the SPEAKER.
> > I also actually did the design.
>
>
> And I'm sure your "friends" appreciate it.
>
>
You've sold how many orignal speaker designs?

I betting you could use the binary number system and not get to the base
number.

Arny Krueger

October 10th 03, 02:24 PM

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...

>> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>>

>>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>>> ...

>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...

>>>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky >
>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>> dave weil wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky >
>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.

>>>>>>>>>> Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.

>>>>>>>>> Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can
>>>>>>>>> go the distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you
>>>>>>>>> look--that's a simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.

>>>>>>>> Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?

>>>>>>> I've never paid for sex. You?

Remember that yesterday Greg claimed he's never lied and I did a
well-documented deconstruction of that claim in about 40 seconds and three
retrievals from google.

;-)
>>>>>> You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.

>>>>> Some guys even hookers won't ****.

>>>> Now *that's* the voice of experience.

>>> An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the
>>> Hutt in the picture from your web site. :-(

>> That's his good side, too!

> A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.

You might want to check the USPS web site.
You'll find that the zip code posted at Greg's web site is listed as
"Greg Singh's Left Butt Cheek".

;-)

In the next revision to his web site, Greg's going to do his impression of a
Christian and turn the other cheek. I'm sure that Middius and Graham are
waiting for this with bated breath.

BTW, for our younger readers, that's a double entendre. I could have as
easily said: "Graham and Middius are waiting to see Greg's other butt cheek
with breath that smells like bait."

I wonder if Lionel will be able to follow this...

bada-boom!

dave weil

October 10th 03, 02:28 PM

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:18:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Saturn Europa speakers are roughly 1' by 2' by 8" deep.

Are these the speakers that your "friends in Detroit" design and make?

Lionel

October 10th 03, 03:56 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

>
>
>>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:42:38 GMT, trotsky >
>>>>>>>wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>>dave weil wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:06:33 GMT, trotsky >
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>But Greg has claimed repeatedly that he has an EE.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>Really? OMG I could have reamed him ten times harder. Dang.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>Joe, honestly, I haven't encountered a single person that can
>>>>>>>>>>go the distance with me. The more you post, the stupider you
>>>>>>>>>>look--that's a simple fact. And I *never* miss a trick.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>Funny, that's what a hooker says, innit?
>
>
>>>>>>>>I've never paid for sex. You?
>
>
> Remember that yesterday Greg claimed he's never lied and I did a
> well-documented deconstruction of that claim in about 40 seconds and three
> retrievals from google.
>
> ;-)
>
>>>>>>>You having paid for sex requires HAVING sex.
>
>
>>>>>>Some guys even hookers won't ****.
>
>
>>>>>Now *that's* the voice of experience.
>
>
>>>>An observation after seeing you doing your impression of Jabba the
>>>>Hutt in the picture from your web site. :-(
>
>
>>>That's his good side, too!
>
>
>>A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.
>
>
> You might want to check the USPS web site.
> You'll find that the zip code posted at Greg's web site is listed as
> "Greg Singh's Left Butt Cheek".
>
> ;-)
>
> In the next revision to his web site, Greg's going to do his impression of a
> Christian and turn the other cheek. I'm sure that Middius and Graham are
> waiting for this with bated breath.
>
> BTW, for our younger readers, that's a double entendre. I could have as
> easily said: "Graham and Middius are waiting to see Greg's other butt cheek
> with breath that smells like bait."
>
> I wonder if Lionel will be able to follow this...
>
> bada-boom!
>
>
Lionel understands Arnold...
Like the ostrich, Trotsky is very nervous...Mother Nature is perfect ;-)

http://www.perverts.nl/files/newass.jpg

trotsky

October 10th 03, 04:05 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...

>>Mickey, you're too stupid to realize you shot yourself in the foot.
>>Your comment meant you were on intimate terms with hookers. You're not
>>denying this, right?
>>
>>
>
> Only in your mind. One needn't consort woth hookers to know that even they
> have standards.

So you garnered this knowledge by osmosis? Ouija board? Friends of
your wife?

> How long has it been since you last paid for sex?

I've covered this with weil. You closet gay guys seem awfully worried
about what's going on with my dick.

trotsky

October 10th 03, 04:07 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:

> A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.

Oh, so you've sunk to criticizing physical appearances. Maybe you
should've supplied your photo alongside your speaker on the front lawn
that could be played for further laughs. Are you going to tell us about
your impressive physical attributes now, Mickey? Does anyone care?

trotsky

October 10th 03, 04:09 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...

>>And I'm sure your "friends" appreciate it.
>>
>>
>
> You've sold how many orignal speaker designs?

Can I get back to you after I've had as many years to try as you?

> I betting you could use the binary number system and not get to the base
> number.

A binary system has two base numbers. How do people get this ****ed up?

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 08:17 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> If I was making $1000+ speakers, I'd at least use something better than
>> normal Home Depot MDF. (they use Georgia Pacific last I checked - not
>> bad stuff, actually)
>
>
>
>
> What are your JBLs made from, troll?

Not as good materials as I'd make them from, to be honest. OTOH,
the smaller ones sell for ~300 each, so it's understandable - they
are built to sound good at a low price.

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 08:23 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> George M. Middius wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sorry, but you've drifted away from your "a pro" paradigm. Now you're
>>> well into "a professionally equipped shop with multiple duplicate
>>> machines and craftsmen". That is to say, a factory.
>>>
>>
>> My high-school woodshop could do this.
>
> Please name the commercially available speakers made in high school
> woodshops. Thanks in advance.

Well, the one where I went to High School had three table saws, several
band saws, routers, radial arm saws, a $100K planing machine, several
lathes, an industrial ventilation system, and everything you can imagine.

You name it, they could make it.

Other than floor space(was *only* 60*80ft), it was identical to
the professional woodshops around town.

Joseph Oberlander

October 10th 03, 08:31 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> BTW I was looking around at wood, and came up with some sources for an
> acoustical wood product with veneer on one side and some viscoelastic
> substance on the back. It's sold for walls and ceilings. Whole 'nuther thing
> than speaker boxes.
>
> http://www.decoustics.com/finishes/solo/tech-info/techinfo-pg1.html

Interesting looking stuff. I'm still looking for a source for 3/4" HDF.
All I find is thin stuff like they make clipboards out of.

trotsky

October 11th 03, 12:08 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>> If I was making $1000+ speakers, I'd at least use something better than
>>> normal Home Depot MDF. (they use Georgia Pacific last I checked - not
>>> bad stuff, actually)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What are your JBLs made from, troll?
>
>
> Not as good materials as I'd make them from, to be honest.

They need to be replaced, then. After you've done that you might have
something to talk about. Until then, though, you're just a dirty troll.

trotsky

October 11th 03, 12:12 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>>
>>> George M. Middius wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry, but you've drifted away from your "a pro" paradigm. Now you're
>>>> well into "a professionally equipped shop with multiple duplicate
>>>> machines and craftsmen". That is to say, a factory.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My high-school woodshop could do this.
>>
>>
>> Please name the commercially available speakers made in high school
>> woodshops. Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Well, the one where I went to High School had three table saws, several
> band saws, routers, radial arm saws, a $100K planing machine, several
> lathes, an industrial ventilation system, and everything you can imagine.
>
> You name it, they could make it.
>
> Other than floor space(was *only* 60*80ft), it was identical to
> the professional woodshops around town.

What are you trying to say, Joe--that all speakers have to be made in
either professional or high school woodshops to be any good? That
sounds kind of stupid, buddy.

Arny Krueger

October 11th 03, 01:23 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>> BTW I was looking around at wood, and came up with some sources for
>> an acoustical wood product with veneer on one side and some
>> viscoelastic substance on the back. It's sold for walls and
>> ceilings. Whole 'nuther thing than speaker boxes.
>>
>> http://www.decoustics.com/finishes/solo/tech-info/techinfo-pg1.html
>
> Interesting looking stuff. I'm still looking for a source for 3/4"
> HDF. All I find is thin stuff like they make clipboards out of.

http://www.dow.com/bioprod/prodapp/fiber.htm

http://www.honeywellroofs.com/pdfs/armorloc/ArmorBoardRegularand.pdf

http://www.aknightcompany.com/roofinsulation_hdoverview.asp

Looks like you want to seek out your local roofing contractor supplier.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 07:13 AM

trotsky wrote:

> What are you trying to say, Joe--that all speakers have to be made in
> either professional or high school woodshops to be any good? That
> sounds kind of stupid, buddy.

No. We were talking about making large quantities per hour. I said
that a competant worker in a shop could crank out the materials for
the cabinet quite fast.

so...

I went out today to the local lumber yard. Not Home Depot, but a
one acre place with nothing but wood. You name it, they can order
it or get it for you. No silly markup like Home Depot either, and
twice the quality.

Anyways.

3/4" 4*8' MDF sheet. $20

Double-Sided veneered MDF - comes in 20 or so wood types.
Cherry, Black Walnut, Mahagony. $120 per 4*8 sheet. This is true
straight veneer - the good stuff that costs $40+ a sheet. I chose
these three because they are commonly used for speakers. Now, you
will need veneer for the edges, of 1/4 round 3/4" wood pieces, but
those are not too expensive either.

Single-sided is $70 per sheet. Oak is $20 less and $10 less, respecitvely.
Me? I love the look of black walnut. I think it makes amazing looking
speakers and pianos. I'd use the one-sided MDF, though. Why pay for
the inside of the cabinet?

Say $70, retail price, for the wood. You can make about 5 Europas from
one sheet, so the per-speaker price for the materials is ~25 each.
Note - that's retail - a large firm would get it wholesale out the door for
$10 a speaker, which was my initial claim - about $20 per pair in raw materials.

Since we all know Malaysian/Indonesian labor wages figure almost nothing
to the equation, let's be generous. Hour per speaker. I doubt that
their workers get paid more than $5 an hour, so add another $5 per speaker.

Okay - it costs them $15, maybe $20 per speaker to make them. What are they
gouging you?

Wood and MDF is cheap, George. You should look at investing your initial
sales into woodworking equipment to make your own cabinets and save a
ton of money. Maybe even drop the price a bit, since your costs dropped
by $100 or so a pair.

*****
But, there's more. If you want to save gobs of money and have the time...
1/8 inch mahagony plywood. $17.98 for a 3*7 sheet. This stuff actually
looks better, imo, than veneer, as it has the type of grain pattern of
solid wood beams/planks. It will require sanding and finishing, but
the results are better than veneer as it has plenty of wood to absorb
dings and finishes of your choice. I've seen jobs using this stuff and
it looks like wood and wears like wood, and unless they pull the thing
apart, they never know there was MDF inside.

Oh - 1/8 oak, 4*8 sheet - $15.98. Highest grade available on the market,
for both.

A bottle of professional contact cement is what - $5? Me? I'd save
a ton of money and use the plywood and MDF if I was on a budget.
You obviously would buy two sheets or more of MDF at a time, so just
use one to press the plywood and MDF together - it's plenty heavy enough.

*****
Lastly, there's better MDF if you want to go overkill. Medex.
This was the stuff I was thinking of before. Tough, dense, and
incredibly heavy.

They build road signs and use the stuff for chalkboards and so on,
with appropriate finishes applied, of course. It's MDF with an
attitude. ;) I like Medex because it's twice as moisture resistant
as standard MDF - which means tighter pores and uniformity - all
good things in speakers.

http://www.awi-wa.com/OVERLAY_PROD.htm - a nice site - pretty much what
is out there that is easy to find.

http://www.schallerhardwood.com/new_page_2.htm
All the info about grades and types of veneers and such that you could want.
This is the type of lists my local lumberyard has, thought this is a good
page to print as it serves as a roadmap so you are talking the same terms
as they are.

Their Classic Core II is good stuff, btw - I like the hybrid design.
I've sent an email to them to get a sample piece or two.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 07:54 AM

One more note -

www.sierrapine.com - this is the maker of Medex. It also is
formaldahyde free, so is safe in interior applications where
air quality is concerned(plus makes a nice selling point)

"We only use the best MDF - formaldahyde free and water resistant..."
Yada yada - a whole paragraph of copy ;)

I like the Medex NC better - hardwood fibers versus softwood,
otherwsie the same. I mention this as this is closer to
Greg, so it shouldbe easily available.

http://www.sierrapine.com/products/mdf/mdf_medex02.htm

I'm looking for info on their highbond MDF - it's supposed to
be even stronger.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 08:16 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> http://www.dow.com/bioprod/prodapp/fiber.htm

Not as good as Sierrapine's standard MDF. They seem to have very
good MDF by the looks of it.

> http://www.honeywellroofs.com/pdfs/armorloc/ArmorBoardRegularand.pdf
>
> http://www.aknightcompany.com/roofinsulation_hdoverview.asp

Thanks.

Oh - I realized that the FAQ should probably be expanded to more
detail about some of these new products and types.

Standard MDF, for instance, is rated at about 100-120 strength
(internal bond), while some others rate upwards of 130-140.

Then there's the acoustical wood product, HDF, and a myriad of
veneered MDF. In short, the MDF section should be a whole
sub section because this is what 90% of DIYers make their
speakers out of. That page I posted with grades and such
on it is a good example - it's all cuneuiform to most builders
and the lumber yards tend to stock stuff that is well, what they
stock. There's little visual way to tell the difference unless
you work with wood and are familiar with it.

HDF should also be added - you're not going to find it easily,
yet it seems like it might have advantages. What would be your
opinion? Too rigid? Too hard to finish?

Lionel

October 11th 03, 09:39 AM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> One more note -
>
> www.sierrapine.com - this is the maker of Medex. It also is
> formaldahyde free, so is safe in interior applications where
> air quality is concerned(plus makes a nice selling point)
>
> "We only use the best MDF - formaldahyde free and water resistant..."
> Yada yada - a whole paragraph of copy ;)
>
>
Good modern ecologist point...
....You will be appointed as marketing manager.
Congratulation !

trotsky

October 11th 03, 01:06 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>
>> What are you trying to say, Joe--that all speakers have to be made in
>> either professional or high school woodshops to be any good? That
>> sounds kind of stupid, buddy.
>
>
> No. We were talking about making large quantities per hour. I said
> that a competant worker in a shop could crank out the materials for
> the cabinet quite fast.
>
> so...
>
> I went out today to the local lumber yard. Not Home Depot, but a
> one acre place with nothing but wood. You name it, they can order
> it or get it for you. No silly markup like Home Depot either, and
> twice the quality.
>
> Anyways.
>
> 3/4" 4*8' MDF sheet. $20
>
> Double-Sided veneered MDF - comes in 20 or so wood types.
> Cherry, Black Walnut, Mahagony. $120 per 4*8 sheet. This is true
> straight veneer - the good stuff that costs $40+ a sheet. I chose
> these three because they are commonly used for speakers. Now, you
> will need veneer for the edges, of 1/4 round 3/4" wood pieces, but
> those are not too expensive either.
>
> Single-sided is $70 per sheet.

Mine is double sided. Not that the facts are of much interest to a troll.

trotsky

October 11th 03, 01:09 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> One more note -
>
> www.sierrapine.com - this is the maker of Medex. It also is
> formaldahyde free, so is safe in interior applications where
> air quality is concerned(plus makes a nice selling point)
>
> "We only use the best MDF - formaldahyde free and water resistant..."
> Yada yada - a whole paragraph of copy ;)
>
> I like the Medex NC better

Better for what? All the speakers you've never built? How long is the
trolling going to continue, Joe?

Lionel

October 11th 03, 01:40 PM

trotsky wrote:
>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> trotsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What are you trying to say, Joe--that all speakers have to be made in
>>> either professional or high school woodshops to be any good? That
>>> sounds kind of stupid, buddy.
>>
>>
>>
>> No. We were talking about making large quantities per hour. I said
>> that a competant worker in a shop could crank out the materials for
>> the cabinet quite fast.
>>
>> so...
>>
>> I went out today to the local lumber yard. Not Home Depot, but a
>> one acre place with nothing but wood. You name it, they can order
>> it or get it for you. No silly markup like Home Depot either, and
>> twice the quality.
>>
>> Anyways.
>>
>> 3/4" 4*8' MDF sheet. $20
>>
>> Double-Sided veneered MDF - comes in 20 or so wood types.
>> Cherry, Black Walnut, Mahagony. $120 per 4*8 sheet. This is true
>> straight veneer - the good stuff that costs $40+ a sheet. I chose
>> these three because they are commonly used for speakers. Now, you
>> will need veneer for the edges, of 1/4 round 3/4" wood pieces, but
>> those are not too expensive either.
>>
>> Single-sided is $70 per sheet.
>
>
>
> Mine is double sided. Not that the facts are of much interest to a troll.
>
Prove it ! A picture please !

George M. Middius

October 11th 03, 03:56 PM

Obie said:

> But, there's more. If you want to save gobs of money and have the time...
> 1/8 inch mahagony plywood. $17.98 for a 3*7 sheet. This stuff actually
> looks better, imo, than veneer, as it has the type of grain pattern of
> solid wood beams/planks. It will require sanding and finishing, but
> the results are better than veneer as it has plenty of wood to absorb
> dings and finishes of your choice.

Does not. Plywood has the same single layer of veneer as MDF does.

Veneer available to consumers (retail) comes in three or more
thicknesses. (The veneer on your JBLs is as thin as it gets, BTW.) If
you really want to class up a speaker with extra protection against
dings, you can buy 1/16" veneer. But it doesn't come nicely laid onto
plywood sheets -- it comes it odd sizes. You would have to mill it and
glue it up by hand.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 09:28 PM

trotsky wrote:

>> Double-Sided veneered MDF - comes in 20 or so wood types.
>> Cherry, Black Walnut, Mahagony. $120 per 4*8 sheet. This is true
>> straight veneer - the good stuff that costs $40+ a sheet. I chose
>> these three because they are commonly used for speakers. Now, you
>> will need veneer for the edges, of 1/4 round 3/4" wood pieces, but
>> those are not too expensive either.
>>
>> Single-sided is $70 per sheet.
>
>
>
> Mine is double sided. Not that the facts are of much interest to a troll.

Okay - $120 a sheet, retail, or about half that wholesale.

If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 09:33 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Joseph Oberlander wrote:
>
>> One more note -
>>
>> www.sierrapine.com - this is the maker of Medex. It also is
>> formaldahyde free, so is safe in interior applications where
>> air quality is concerned(plus makes a nice selling point)
>>
>> "We only use the best MDF - formaldahyde free and water resistant..."
>> Yada yada - a whole paragraph of copy ;)
>>
>> I like the Medex NC better
>
>
>
> Better for what?

Based upon the data. It actually take screws well enough, which is a
problem with common cheap MDF, which is in the 200 lb screw pull rating
versus 350+ for the tighter newer stuff.

The lack of formaldahyde is also a good point. Manufactured materials
like this are one thing that the specs are important on. If I was
making speaker, I'd be using stuff like this.

Joseph Oberlander

October 11th 03, 09:38 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie said:
>
>
>>But, there's more. If you want to save gobs of money and have the time...
>>1/8 inch mahagony plywood. $17.98 for a 3*7 sheet. This stuff actually
>>looks better, imo, than veneer, as it has the type of grain pattern of
>>solid wood beams/planks. It will require sanding and finishing, but
>>the results are better than veneer as it has plenty of wood to absorb
>>dings and finishes of your choice.
>
>
> Does not. Plywood has the same single layer of veneer as MDF does.
>
> Veneer available to consumers (retail) comes in three or more
> thicknesses. (The veneer on your JBLs is as thin as it gets, BTW.) If
> you really want to class up a speaker with extra protection against
> dings, you can buy 1/16" veneer. But it doesn't come nicely laid onto
> plywood sheets -- it comes it odd sizes. You would have to mill it and
> glue it up by hand.

The stuff I was looking at was rough and needed a lot of work, but was
made entirely out of mahagony layers. No veneer applied. I liked it
myself because it had large grain patterns, but you'd likely have to
sand off 1/16th of an inch and do some serious oiling to get it to look
as good as the veneer. Heh.

Still, at $18 a sheet, it's not so bad :)

The 1/16th was interesting, too. Considering the size of the Europas, it
would be pretty easy to cut out a piece the right size.

George M. Middius

October 11th 03, 09:52 PM

Obie Wanna Refill His Pipe said:

> If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
> a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?

It's hard to figure what you're trying to say about the home-brew
speaker business. On the one hand, you won't even consider spending
a grand to get newer, better speakers for your own personal use. On
the other, you'd shell out 20 times that for a hobby in which you've
said you have little interest. Not to mention the five-cent outline
you gave about how you'd go about designing speakers "for sale to
the public". That little plan entailed months and months of work on
your part.

If you're into audio mercantilism as a hobby, I think you'd do
better to try the closeout-and-liquidation market. You could just
stack 'em up in your basement and sell them onesy-twosy on the 'net.
But if you're into woodworking as a hobby, then it's ingenuous to
think you need an excuse like peddling a few pairs of homemade
speakers to justify the expense.

George M. Middius

October 11th 03, 09:56 PM

Obie Wanna Lotta Splinters said:

> > If you really want to class up a speaker with extra protection against
> > dings, you can buy 1/16" veneer. But it doesn't come nicely laid onto
> > plywood sheets -- it comes it odd sizes. You would have to mill it and
> > glue it up by hand.

> The 1/16th was interesting, too. Considering the size of the Europas, it
> would be pretty easy to cut out a piece the right size.

I haven't seen it offered in pieces that big. The speakers are about
24 x 10, right? I guess you might be able to find 24" lengths. You
could do T&G milling with a razor blade.

> The stuff I was looking at was rough and needed a lot of work, but was
> made entirely out of mahagony layers. No veneer applied.

That's hard to believe. Unless you mean the inner layers are made of
mahogany chips and dust.

trotsky

October 11th 03, 10:50 PM

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> trotsky wrote:
>
>>> Double-Sided veneered MDF - comes in 20 or so wood types.
>>> Cherry, Black Walnut, Mahagony. $120 per 4*8 sheet. This is true
>>> straight veneer - the good stuff that costs $40+ a sheet. I chose
>>> these three because they are commonly used for speakers. Now, you
>>> will need veneer for the edges, of 1/4 round 3/4" wood pieces, but
>>> those are not too expensive either.
>>>
>>> Single-sided is $70 per sheet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mine is double sided. Not that the facts are of much interest to a troll.
>
>
> Okay - $120 a sheet, retail, or about half that wholesale.
>
> If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
> a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

As stated previously, go for it.

Michael Mckelvy

October 11th 03, 10:53 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> > "trotsky" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >>Mickey, you're too stupid to realize you shot yourself in the foot.
> >>Your comment meant you were on intimate terms with hookers. You're not
> >>denying this, right?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Only in your mind. One needn't consort woth hookers to know that even
they
> > have standards.
>
>
> So you garnered this knowledge by osmosis? Ouija board? Friends of
> your wife?
>
I read a lot.

Your sister told me.

George told me.

Take your pick.
>
> > How long has it been since you last paid for sex?
>
>
> I've covered this with weil. You closet gay guys seem awfully worried
> about what's going on with my dick.
>
Sorry, but you're wrong again, I'm a flaming heterosexual.

I think the real problem for you is that NOBODY is concerned with your dick.

Lionel

October 11th 03, 10:54 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:

> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>>"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>>Mickey, you're too stupid to realize you shot yourself in the foot.
>>>>Your comment meant you were on intimate terms with hookers. You're not
>>>>denying this, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Only in your mind. One needn't consort woth hookers to know that even
>
> they
>
>>>have standards.
>>
>>
>>So you garnered this knowledge by osmosis? Ouija board? Friends of
>>your wife?
>>
>
> I read a lot.
>
> Your sister told me.
>
> George told me.
>
> Take your pick.
>
>>>How long has it been since you last paid for sex?
>>
>>
>>I've covered this with weil. You closet gay guys seem awfully worried
>>about what's going on with my dick.
>>
>
> Sorry, but you're wrong again, I'm a flaming heterosexual.
>
> I think the real problem for you is that NOBODY is concerned with your dick.
>
>
How can somebody be concerned by something which is always hidden in
mountains of fat ? ;-)

Michael Mckelvy

October 11th 03, 10:59 PM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
> > A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.
>
>
>
> Oh, so you've sunk to criticizing physical appearances. Maybe you
> should've supplied your photo alongside your speaker on the front lawn

Actually it was my back yard.

> that could be played for further laughs. Are you going to tell us about
> your impressive physical attributes now, Mickey?

I'm a good looking guy, not that I couldn't stand to loose a few pounds, but
that happens when your in your 50's and limted in the physical activity you
can engage in because of pain.

Does anyone care?
>
Probably not on RAO, but that's not the real world.

trotsky

October 11th 03, 11:13 PM

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
> "trotsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.
>>
>>
>>
>>Oh, so you've sunk to criticizing physical appearances. Maybe you
>>should've supplied your photo alongside your speaker on the front lawn
>
>
> Actually it was my back yard.
>
>
>>that could be played for further laughs. Are you going to tell us about
>>your impressive physical attributes now, Mickey?
>
>
> I'm a good looking guy, not that I couldn't stand to loose a few pounds, but
> that happens when your in your 50's and limted in the physical activity you
> can engage in because of pain.

Does you brain hurt often, then?

Lionel

October 11th 03, 11:18 PM

trotsky wrote:

>
>
> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>
>> "trotsky" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>
>>> Michael Mckelvy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A couple more pounds and he'll qualify for his own zip code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, so you've sunk to criticizing physical appearances. Maybe you
>>> should've supplied your photo alongside your speaker on the front lawn
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually it was my back yard.
>>
>>
>>> that could be played for further laughs. Are you going to tell us about
>>> your impressive physical attributes now, Mickey?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm a good looking guy, not that I couldn't stand to loose a few
>> pounds, but
>> that happens when your in your 50's and limted in the physical
>> activity you
>> can engage in because of pain.
>
>
>
> Does you brain hurt often, then?
>

Have you find your dick ?

Arny Krueger

October 12th 03, 12:09 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net

> HDF should also be added - you're not going to find it easily,
> yet it seems like it might have advantages. What would be your
> opinion? Too rigid? Too hard to finish?

IME structural design makes more difference than the differences between
MDF, HDF, LDF, and the various permutations of plywood. It's the old story -
ask a competent engineer to meet spec with three different somewhat similar
materials, and you get up to three different designs that all meet spec.

ScottW

October 12th 03, 12:41 AM

"trotsky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> As stated previously, go for it.

There are some nice cabinet shops in TJ that can (if you demand)
do excellent work for a fraction of the cost in the states.
You should take advantage of NAFTA.

ScottW

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 01:40 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wanna Refill His Pipe said:
>
>
>>If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
>>a woodshop to my house and do it myself.
>
>
> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?

No, I said if I was Greg and running his sort of *business*, I'd
seriously contemplate making my own speakers.

Oh - talk to Ellis - it doesn't take $20K for making simple speakers.

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 01:43 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

>>The stuff I was looking at was rough and needed a lot of work, but was
>>made entirely out of mahagony layers. No veneer applied.
>
>
> That's hard to believe. Unless you mean the inner layers are made of
> mahogany chips and dust.

Nope. I was surprized as well. Solid mahagony, though it did look
like the inner layers were definately class C or D or scraps. The
exterior was nicer - about typical redwood or cedar lumber in quality,
about a B finish.

I might get a sheet to experiment with to see how much I can bring
the finish up to spec.

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 01:45 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> nk.net
>
>
>>HDF should also be added - you're not going to find it easily,
>>yet it seems like it might have advantages. What would be your
>>opinion? Too rigid? Too hard to finish?
>
>
> IME structural design makes more difference than the differences between
> MDF, HDF, LDF, and the various permutations of plywood. It's the old story -
> ask a competent engineer to meet spec with three different somewhat similar
> materials, and you get up to three different designs that all meet spec.

Heh. True. It's like the old joke: Ask three Jewish persons what
God is. Get five answers. :)

So - what types of internal bracing wok best, then? I suspect that you
don't want big crossbeams in the case as it might interfere with
the sound.

George M. Middius

October 12th 03, 01:52 AM

Obie Wanna Krooger-Be said:

> >>If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
> >>a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

> > So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
> > tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?

> No, I said if I was Greg and running his sort of *business*, I'd
> seriously contemplate making my own speakers.

You also said, and I quote: "I'd add a woodshop to my house".

> Oh - talk to Ellis - it doesn't take $20K for making simple speakers.

How about this: "I'd add a woodshop to my house"? Is that something
you can do by breaking open your piggy bank?

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 03:40 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie Wanna Krooger-Be said:
>
>
>>>>If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
>>>>a woodshop to my house and do it myself.
>
>
>>>So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>
>
>>No, I said if I was Greg and running his sort of *business*, I'd
>>seriously contemplate making my own speakers.
>
>
> You also said, and I quote: "I'd add a woodshop to my house".
>
>
>>Oh - talk to Ellis - it doesn't take $20K for making simple speakers.
>
>
> How about this: "I'd add a woodshop to my house"? Is that something
> you can do by breaking open your piggy bank?

Well, I do have a large 2-car garage that's nearly empty.

Arny Krueger

October 12th 03, 03:55 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
>> nk.net

>>> HDF should also be added - you're not going to find it easily,
>>> yet it seems like it might have advantages. What would be your
>>> opinion? Too rigid? Too hard to finish?

>> IME structural design makes more difference than the differences
>> between MDF, HDF, LDF, and the various permutations of plywood. It's
>> the old story - ask a competent engineer to meet spec with three
>> different somewhat similar materials, and you get up to three
>> different designs that all meet spec.

> Heh. True. It's like the old joke: Ask three Jewish persons what
> God is. Get five answers. :)

> So - what types of internal bracing wok best, then?

IME, the ones that go between the sides, and along the corners.

Rap test a small speaker box. Then cut 3 pieces of 1 x 1 that you can
lightly wedge between opposite walls. Put a dab of glue on the ends of each
piece and wedge it in, as close to the middles of the walls of the enclosure
as possible. When the glue sets, try another rap test. I predict that you'll
think that it's almost a solid block of wood in comparison to what it was.
However, the cross-braces don't take up but a few cubic inches and don't
create any odd cavities.

There are some odd tricks you can play where the cross-brace stiffens the
frame of a woofer, or braces cross and stiffen each other. When braces
touch, glue to increase strength and reduce buzzing.

>I suspect that
> you don't want big crossbeams in the case as it might interfere with
> the sound.

They don't need to be big. 1 x 1 in small enclosures, 2 x 2 in large ones.

Some undesirable sitautions would be where there was so much bracing that
box volume was substantially reduced, or that sound would be blocked, or
that resonant cavities would be formed. None of that would be likely with
any reasonable amount of cross-bracing.

IME you get a lot more stiffness for dollar of wood with cross-braces and
corner blocking than with thicker wood sides.

This is especially true with larger boxes (e.g. subwoofers) where you almost
can't get wood thick enough to be really dead.

Arny Krueger

October 12th 03, 04:09 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net

> George M. Middius blathered:

>> Obie Wanna Krooger-Be said:

>>>>> If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd
>>>>> add a woodshop to my house and do it myself.
>
>>>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?

>>> No, I said if I was Greg and running his sort of *business*, I'd
>>> seriously contemplate making my own speakers.

>> You also said, and I quote: "I'd add a woodshop to my house".

>>> Oh - talk to Ellis - it doesn't take $20K for making simple
>>> speakers.

Yes, it would be interesting to see Middius' $20K bill-of-materials for
setting up a wood shop for just building speakers in modest volumes.

>> How about this: "I'd add a woodshop to my house"? Is that something
>> you can do by breaking open your piggy bank?

> Well, I do have a large 2-car garage that's nearly empty.

I have a table saw, a miter saw, a large floor-mounted disc sander, several
finish sanders, a router and a router table, a drill press, a rotozip, a
number of power drills and power screw drivers, and the usual tools for
electrical wiring and soldering.

Vast overkill for just building loudspeakers! Replacement value maybe a
couple of $K.

As usual Middius is talking out of the back of his neck.

Michael Mckelvy

October 12th 03, 05:14 AM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Obie Wanna Refill His Pipe said:
>
> > If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
> > a woodshop to my house and do it myself.
>
> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>
$20K? Where diod you pull that number from?

When did you last price the woodworking materails needed to build speaker
cabinets?

> It's hard to figure what you're trying to say about the home-brew
> speaker business. On the one hand, you won't even consider spending
> a grand to get newer, better speakers for your own personal use. On
> the other, you'd shell out 20 times that for a hobby in which you've
> said you have little interest. Not to mention the five-cent outline
> you gave about how you'd go about designing speakers "for sale to
> the public". That little plan entailed months and months of work on
> your part.
>
Oddly enough, the first time you build a speaker system from scratch it's
got zero chance of being anything more than a starting point.

People who are well known experts like Linkwitz, D'Appolito, and Weems spend
months getting a design right.

> If you're into audio mercantilism as a hobby, I think you'd do
> better to try the closeout-and-liquidation market. You could just
> stack 'em up in your basement and sell them onesy-twosy on the 'net.
> But if you're into woodworking as a hobby, then it's ingenuous to
> think you need an excuse like peddling a few pairs of homemade
> speakers to justify the expense.
>
Go price the equipment and then get back to us.
>
>
>
>
>

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 06:59 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Some undesirable sitautions would be where there was so much bracing that
> box volume was substantially reduced, or that sound would be blocked, or
> that resonant cavities would be formed. None of that would be likely with
> any reasonable amount of cross-bracing.
>
> IME you get a lot more stiffness for dollar of wood with cross-braces and
> corner blocking than with thicker wood sides.

Thanks. That's what I thought, but wanted to be sure.

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 07:00 AM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Vast overkill for just building loudspeakers! Replacement value maybe a
> couple of $K.
>
> As usual Middius is talking out of the back of his neck.

I just occurred to me that $100+ in savings per pair of speakers
would add up fast.

Arny Krueger

October 12th 03, 10:18 AM

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...

>> Obie Wanna Refill His Pipe said:

>>> If I ended up selling more than about ten pairs of speakers, I'd add
>>> a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?

> $20K? Where did you pull that number from?

His Depends. They probably were full at the time.

> When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
> speaker cabinets?

Probably before the Taiwanese started sending us power tools.

>> It's hard to figure what you're trying to say about the home-brew
>> speaker business. On the one hand, you won't even consider spending
>> a grand to get newer, better speakers for your own personal use. On
>> the other, you'd shell out 20 times that for a hobby in which you've
>> said you have little interest. Not to mention the five-cent outline
>> you gave about how you'd go about designing speakers "for sale to
>> the public". That little plan entailed months and months of work on
>> your part.

> Oddly enough, the first time you build a speaker system from scratch
> it's got zero chance of being anything more than a starting point.

Agreed.

> People who are well known experts like Linkwitz, D'Appolito, and
> Weems spend months getting a design right.

Agreed.

>> If you're into audio mercantilism as a hobby, I think you'd do
>> better to try the closeout-and-liquidation market. You could just
>> stack 'em up in your basement and sell them onesy-twosy on the 'net.
>> But if you're into woodworking as a hobby, then it's ingenuous to
>> think you need an excuse like peddling a few pairs of homemade
>> speakers to justify the expense.

> Go price the equipment and then get back to us.

Notice how quickly Middius has risen to my challenge to post a
bill-of-materials.

Tain't holdin' my breath...

dave weil

October 12th 03, 03:13 PM

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>
>$20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>
>When did you last price the woodworking materails needed to build speaker
>cabinets?

Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?

I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a purpose,
although George didn't think about the possibility of adding a prefab
outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring that would have to be
done, could be done cheaper.

dave weil

October 12th 03, 03:21 PM

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:18:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Notice how quickly Middius has risen to my challenge to post a
>bill-of-materials.

*Your* "bill of materials was missing a fairly expensive necessary
component for the mass building of speaker cabinets (by mass, I mean a
single person trying to sell a reasonable number of speakers a year).

Joseph Oberlander

October 12th 03, 10:19 PM

dave weil wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>
>>>tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>
>>
>>$20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>
>>When did you last price the woodworking materails needed to build speaker
>>cabinets?
>
>
> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?
>
> I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a purpose,
> although George didn't think about the possibility of adding a prefab
> outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring that would have to be
> done, could be done cheaper.

Ah. I forgot his garage is full of old crap.

It's a bit cheaper to get a storage unit, you know.

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 02:05 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:18:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:

>> Notice how quickly Middius has risen to my challenge to post a
>> bill-of-materials.

> *Your* "bill of materials was missing a fairly expensive necessary
> component for the mass building of speaker cabinets (by mass, I mean a
> single person trying to sell a reasonable number of speakers a year).

Weil, since your bill of materials for what my list missed is in itself
missing, it's clear that you're trolling or blowing wind out of the back of
your neck, or both. When you want to be reasonable, post again!

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 02:09 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>
>> $20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>
>> When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
>> speaker cabinets?
>
> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?

In many cases the requirement for an addition is yet another figment of the
Middius imagination. However, I can see where an east-coaster may put a
higher value on raw square feet than we do in the midwest.

> I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a purpose,
> although George didn't think about the possibility of adding a prefab
> outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring that would have to be
> done, could be done cheaper.

In many cases the $20 addition is a figment of the Middius imagination. It
may apply to Greg's situation, but that's not a given. I figure that if I
can build speakers in a 2-bedroom apartment... Of course with a ca. 3,000
square foot house, I might just be spoiled...

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 02:12 PM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net
> dave weil wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>
>>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>>
>>>
>>> $20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>>
>>> When did you last price the woodworking materails needed to build
>>> speaker cabinets?
>>
>>
>> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?
>>
>> I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a
>> purpose, although George didn't think about the possibility of
>> adding a prefab outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring that
>> would have to be done, could be done cheaper.
>
> Ah. I forgot his garage is full of old crap.

From the smell we can tell that the crap in the Middius garage is quite
fresh!

Being wrapped in Depends doesn't help that much.

bada-boom!

dave weil

October 13th 03, 02:38 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:05:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"dave weil" > wrote in message

>> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:18:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>
>>> Notice how quickly Middius has risen to my challenge to post a
>>> bill-of-materials.
>
>> *Your* "bill of materials was missing a fairly expensive necessary
>> component for the mass building of speaker cabinets (by mass, I mean a
>> single person trying to sell a reasonable number of speakers a year).
>
>Weil, since your bill of materials for what my list missed is in itself
>missing, it's clear that you're trolling or blowing wind out of the back of
>your neck, or both. When you want to be reasonable, post again!

If you want to ask, ask.

I'll be happy to answer.

Or maybe you can come up with the answer yourself, if you think hard
enough about it, and no, the answer isn't something as mundane as glue
or screws.

Now you have a "growing a brain" project for this morning, if you
choose to accept this assignment.

I'll bet if George were to review your bill of materials, he might
come up with a multi-hundred dollar tool requirement.

dave weil

October 13th 03, 02:50 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:09:54 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"dave weil" > wrote in message

>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>>
>>> $20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>>
>>> When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
>>> speaker cabinets?
>>
>> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?
>
>In many cases the requirement for an addition is yet another figment of the
>Middius imagination.

Unless one is lucky, generally one will have to build an addition to
create a full-service woodworking shop. It's not like converting a
spare bedroom or something.

Sure, you can lose your garage, I suppose. Heck, Howard turned *his*
into a listening room. And the basement is a possibility.

> However, I can see where an east-coaster may put a
>higher value on raw square feet than we do in the midwest.
>
>> I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a purpose,
>> although George didn't think about the possibility of adding a prefab
>> outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring that would have to be
>> done, could be done cheaper.

And, as I indicated above, I should have mentioned a basement as a
cost cutting measure - of course, not everyone has one of those.

>In many cases the $20 addition is a figment of the Middius imagination. It
>may apply to Greg's situation, but that's not a given. I figure that if I
>can build speakers in a 2-bedroom apartment...

You would have a hard time building cabinets in a two bedroom
apartment. First of all, I doubt you could get away with it from a
landlord's standpoint. But you'd also be foolhardy to try and turn a
bedroom into a woodworking shop. Is it physically possible? Sure. You
can rebuild your car motor on your kitchen table as well.

>Of course with a ca. 3,000
>square foot house, I might just be spoiled...

Any *real* woodworker worth his or her salt would laugh at the
suggestion that someone put a shop in a spare bedroom.

Now, a basement is a different matter...we know you have one. So, you
could certainly do it down there. You could even spend the couple of
thousand to retrofit it to make it a reasonable production facility
(not counting tools of course). You'd have to deal with the codes and
zoning, but that's a different issue.

Regardless, you still misread his original post, didn't you?

(No, I don't expect you to admit it)

George M. Middius

October 13th 03, 03:37 PM

dave weil said:

> >>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
> >>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
> >>>>
> >>> $20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
> >>>
> >>> When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
> >>> speaker cabinets?
> >>
> >> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?
> >
> >In many cases the requirement for an addition is yet another figment of the
> >Middius imagination.
>
> Unless one is lucky, generally one will have to build an addition to
> create a full-service woodworking shop. It's not like converting a
> spare bedroom or something.

Don't forget about Krooger's legendary inability to understand
written English. Originally, Obie said this:

> ... I'd add a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

If Krooger had a brain, he would know that "add" and "addition" are
closely related. At least in the ways human beings use the words.

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 07:03 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:09:54 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:14:51 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>>> tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>>>
>>>> $20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>>>
>>>> When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
>>>> speaker cabinets?
>>>
>>> Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?

>> In many cases the requirement for an addition is yet another figment
>> of the Middius imagination.

> Unless one is lucky, generally one will have to build an addition to
> create a full-service woodworking shop. It's not like converting a
> spare bedroom or something.

Why does one need a full-service woodworking shop to just make speaker
cabinets? If you want, factor in the sort of volumes that Singh will have to
achieve.

> Sure, you can lose your garage, I suppose. Heck, Howard turned *his*
> into a listening room. And the basement is a possibility.

Dooooooooooh!

>> However, I can see where an east-coaster may put a
>> higher value on raw square feet than we do in the midwest.

>>> I think that $20k is about right for adding a room for such a
>>> purpose, although George didn't think about the possibility of
>>> adding a prefab outbuilding, which, even considering the wiring
>>> that would have to be done, could be done cheaper.

> And, as I indicated above, I should have mentioned a basement as a
> cost cutting measure - of course, not everyone has one of those.

Proves nothing.

>> In many cases the $20 addition is a figment of the Middius
>> imagination. It may apply to Greg's situation, but that's not a
>> given. I figure that if I can build speakers in a 2-bedroom
>> apartment...

> You would have a hard time building cabinets in a two bedroom
> apartment.

What's unclear about "been there, done that"?

> First of all, I doubt you could get away with it from a
> landlord's standpoint.

Why?

> But you'd also be foolhardy to try and turn a
> bedroom into a woodworking shop. Is it physically possible? Sure. You
> can rebuild your car motor on your kitchen table as well.

The special-purpose woodworking shop is IME less of a reach.

>> Of course with a ca. 3,000
>> square foot house, I might just be spoiled...

> Any *real* woodworker worth his or her salt would laugh at the
> suggestion that someone put a shop in a spare bedroom.

Tell us about YOUR woodworking shop, Weil. Tell us about the woodworking
projects YOU'VE done.

> Now, a basement is a different matter...we know you have one. So, you
> could certainly do it down there. You could even spend the couple of
> thousand to retrofit it to make it a reasonable production facility
> (not counting tools of course). You'd have to deal with the codes and
> zoning, but that's a different issue.

Weil, you would probably pee your pants if I gave a brief rundown of the
kinds of in some sense legitimate but heavy-duty businesses Grosse Pointers
run out of their homes. According to D&B there are over 1,000 businesses in
my zip code. If you think they're all one-man home offices, you're showing
your naiveté.

> Regardless, you still misread his original post, didn't you?

Sue me for knowing BS when I read it.

> (No, I don't expect you to admit it)

<aside to the most litigious and vain man on RAO>

BTW sockpuppet Wheel, you *could* slip a lawsuit for knowing BS when I read
it, through the legal loopholes you're working these days.

dave weil

October 13th 03, 07:34 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>> First of all, I doubt you could get away with it from a
>> landlord's standpoint.
>
>Why?

If *I* were your neighbor and I heard electric drills and electric
saws being operated out of your apartment, I might not be enthused.

If you're talking about a one off project, sure, you can do that in
your kitchen. That's not exactly what we're talking about though,
right?

dave weil

October 13th 03, 07:42 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>> Any *real* woodworker worth his or her salt would laugh at the
>> suggestion that someone put a shop in a spare bedroom.
>
>Tell us about YOUR woodworking shop, Weil. Tell us about the woodworking
>projects YOU'VE done.

Tell us about *your* woodworking shop first. Be specific.

BTW, you never addressed the issue of the missing important component
in your theoretical woodworking shop.

>> Now, a basement is a different matter...we know you have one. So, you
>> could certainly do it down there. You could even spend the couple of
>> thousand to retrofit it to make it a reasonable production facility
>> (not counting tools of course). You'd have to deal with the codes and
>> zoning, but that's a different issue.
>
>Weil, you would probably pee your pants if I gave a brief rundown of the
>kinds of in some sense legitimate but heavy-duty businesses Grosse Pointers
>run out of their homes. According to D&B there are over 1,000 businesses in
>my zip code. If you think they're all one-man home offices, you're showing
>your naiveté.

What does that have to do with "dealing with the codes and zoning"? If
you're going to operate a woodworking shop for profit in your
residential neighborhood, you *will* be subject to codes and zoning.
That's just a fact.

I'm supposed to be impressed that there are probably 500 lemonade
stands in your zip code? You might do a little more research about
*my* zip code if you want to do a dick-measuring contest about
neighborhood "businesses".

dave weil

October 13th 03, 07:46 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Weil, you would probably pee your pants if I gave a brief rundown of the
>kinds of in some sense legitimate but heavy-duty businesses Grosse Pointers
>run out of their homes. According to D&B there are over 1,000 businesses in
>my zip code. If you think they're all one-man home offices, you're showing
>your naiveté.

According to you, no such thing as a "Grosse Pointer". Maybe you
didn't want to say "Wooder" for some reason.

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 08:01 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>>> First of all, I doubt you could get away with it from a
>>> landlord's standpoint.

>> Why?

> If *I* were your neighbor and I heard electric drills and electric
> saws being operated out of your apartment, I might not be enthused.

You might not even know.

It's like *regular* household equipment like vacuum cleaners and blenders
are so quiet... Then compare the noise levels generated by drills, some
sanders, and power screw drivers. The only thing that takes a little
thinking is cutting wood at night.

The noisy parts of making speaker cabs aren't the ones that take all the
time. You can generally be sure that few neighbors are home in most
apartment buildings during the day, anyway.

> If you're talking about a one off project, sure, you can do that in
> your kitchen.

Trying to stay relevant, we *were* talking about reasonable sales
projections for singh's speakers.

>That's not exactly what we're talking about though, right?

Weil, I'm thinking of you trying to use power tools, and I'm seeing you in a
vehicle headed for an emergency room. Why are you even trying to address a
topic so foreign to your personal experience? Why don't you list the
contents of your home shop, given that I've been open and above-board enough
to list mine.

Arny Krueger

October 13th 03, 08:05 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>>> Any *real* woodworker worth his or her salt would laugh at the
>>> suggestion that someone put a shop in a spare bedroom.

>> Tell us about YOUR woodworking shop, Weil. Tell us about the
>> woodworking projects YOU'VE done.

> Tell us about *your* woodworking shop first.

Sorry, I'm not playing your little games today, Weil. Put up or shut up!

Besides lots of people on this group are now laughing their butts off at you
Weil, if they follow my recent posts at all.

Joseph Oberlander

October 13th 03, 08:05 PM

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> dave weil said:
>
>
>>>>>So you'd spend $20K minimum for an addition, plus the cost of the
>>>>>
>>>>>>tools, to support a speaker-making hobby?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>$20K? Where diod you pull that number from?
>>>>>
>>>>>When did you last price the woodworking materials needed to build
>>>>>speaker cabinets?
>>>>
>>>>Did you and Army both miss the phrase "for an addition"?
>>>
>>>In many cases the requirement for an addition is yet another figment of the
>>>Middius imagination.
>>
>>Unless one is lucky, generally one will have to build an addition to
>>create a full-service woodworking shop. It's not like converting a
>>spare bedroom or something.
>
>
> Don't forget about Krooger's legendary inability to understand
> written English. Originally, Obie said this:
>
>
>>... I'd add a woodshop to my house and do it myself.
>
>
> If Krooger had a brain, he would know that "add" and "addition" are
> closely related. At least in the ways human beings use the words.

I came close, but I didn't speficy what shape it would take. That's
up to the person's needs and taste.

My grandfather - he did all of his own work, from cutting down the
trees and pulling stumps(he liked walnut) to the finished products
in his 2-car garage. Now, the rafters and sides and back were all
carefully laid out storage and his smaller machines had to be moved
in and out a bit to make room, but he made nine grandfather clocks
by hand this way. Stunning quality, btw - as good as anything I've
seen at any price. He also made all sorts of things from quilt/blanket
holders to desk clocks and bookends.

All out of his garage. One clock for each of his children and one
for himself.

So, yes, it is possible. That he did the planeing and hard sawing
and such from the trees themselves is insane - most people skip
that step. Given the quality of pre-finished lumber and MDF and
veneer these days, 1/3 of his machines would be unnecessarry to
make something as simple as a speaker cabinet. You don't need
huge bandsaws, a lathe, and a planer to make speakers, afterall.

Lionel

October 13th 03, 08:25 PM

dave weil wrote:
>
> If you're talking about a one off project, sure, you can do that in
> your kitchen.

Like Gregory Singh ?

dave weil

October 13th 03, 08:30 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:05:19 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"dave weil" > wrote in message

>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Any *real* woodworker worth his or her salt would laugh at the
>>>> suggestion that someone put a shop in a spare bedroom.
>
>>> Tell us about YOUR woodworking shop, Weil. Tell us about the
>>> woodworking projects YOU'VE done.
>
>> Tell us about *your* woodworking shop first.
>
>Sorry, I'm not playing your little games today, Weil. Put up or shut up!

Sorry. Failure to answer the question fully noted.

You didn't put up, so now you need to shut up.

>Besides lots of people on this group are now laughing their butts off at you
>Weil, if they follow my recent posts at all.

Prove it.

BTW, I note you *still* haven't figured out what was lacking in your
"bill".

George M. Middius

October 13th 03, 09:41 PM

Obie tries to shield the Kroo from another round of humiliation.

> > Don't forget about Krooger's legendary inability to understand
> > written English. Originally, Obie said this:

> >>... I'd add a woodshop to my house and do it myself.

> > If Krooger had a brain, he would know that "add" and "addition" are
> > closely related. At least in the ways human beings use the words.

> I came close, but I didn't speficy what shape it would take.

At least you don't deny that the word "add" was used.

However, in common parlance, adding something (room, wing, garage,
shop) to your house means just that -- adding it. Structure and
innards and utilities. If you didn't mean that, you could have said
"put a workshop in my house" or "upgrade my garage as a workshop".

Note that if you'd said "build a workshop in my house", that would
have less connotation of building an addition than "add a workshop
to my house".

Face it, when it comes to Krooger, communication is hopeless.
Krooglish allows an array to be a single object, night to be day,
wrong to be right, and lies to be truth.