Greg whined:

Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
anonymice.

BWAHAHAHA! More of that control-freakery there, Greg. 'You don't get
to comment', indeed. If only. Hahaha! I'm afraid I'll comment on
whatever I like, thank you very much.

And of course, let's not forget that my comments were welcome when
they were favourable--just as dave's were welcome when *they* were
favourable!

Spoilt brat, Greg. That's what you are. With the mental age of a
four-year-old.

You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:

I'm sorry, Mr Control Freak, but I won't follow your orders. If I want
to talk about your speakers, I will. You won't stop me. So'rry!

I'm afraid your control-freak attempts to deflect the conversation
away from the actual *topic* of discussion won't be successful,
either. None of the issues you have raised--my job, my family, my
name, my dick--have anything to do with your speakers. But I think
potential customers will find it instructional to consider the
subjects you chose to raise for your rebuttal.

BTW, I know *you* know you've lost the argument when you spin off on a
tangent like this. Are you so desperately terrified you can't address
the issues? No? Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Try to focus, now. The subject is your speakers. Not George, not me,
not Bob, not Arnii, not incest. Your speakers. Try to focus your reply
entirely on that subject. I bet you can't.

Thirty pounds overweight, indeed. LOL!

--
td

The Devil wrote:

Greg whined:


Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
anonymice.


BWAHAHAHA! More of that control-freakery there, Greg. 'You don't get
to comment', indeed. If only. Hahaha! I'm afraid I'll comment on
whatever I like, thank you very much.

And of course, let's not forget that my comments were welcome when
they were favourable--just as dave's were welcome when *they* were
favourable!

Spoilt brat, Greg. That's what you are. With the mental age of a
four-year-old.


You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:


I'm sorry, Mr Control Freak, but I won't follow your orders. If I want
to talk about your speakers, I will. You won't stop me. So'rry!

I'm afraid your control-freak attempts to deflect the conversation
away from the actual *topic* of discussion won't be successful,
either. None of the issues you have raised--my job, my family, my
name, my dick--have anything to do with your speakers. But I think
potential customers will find it instructional to consider the
subjects you chose to raise for your rebuttal.

BTW, I know *you* know you've lost the argument when you spin off on a
tangent like this. Are you so desperately terrified you can't address
the issues? No? Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Try to focus, now. The subject is your speakers. Not George, not me,
not Bob, not Arnii, not incest. Your speakers. Try to focus your reply
entirely on that subject. I bet you can't.

Thirty pounds overweight, indeed. LOL!

--
td

How can you imagine that Greg "Trotsky" Singh has already manufacture
one speaker.
Bob Morein was right Jupiter-Audio is a fake company !
This guy doesn't care about speakers about music about anything.
Let's have a look to Google records, Trotsky has the same behaviour here
than in all the newgroups he uses to post.
The lie was here a little bit bigger.

The Devil wrote:
Greg whined:


Stick a fork in yourself, Dev, you're done. You don't get to comment on
my business unless you can grow some ******** and leave the realm of the
anonymice.


BWAHAHAHA! More of that control-freakery there, Greg. 'You don't get
to comment', indeed. If only. Hahaha! I'm afraid I'll comment on
whatever I like, thank you very much.


You're welcome to try. We've been through this before--you've left the
group "permanently" three or four times now.


And of course, let's not forget that my comments were welcome when
they were favourable--just as dave's were welcome when *they* were
favourable!


Yeah, that's an accurate assessment of the situation. You're really
reaching now.


Spoilt brat, Greg. That's what you are. With the mental age of a
four-year-old.


Really? That makes a Usenet anonmouse about -5! LOL!



You want to talk about my speakers? Fine, quid pro quo:


I'm sorry, Mr Control Freak, but I won't follow your orders. If I want
to talk about your speakers, I will. You won't stop me. So'rry!


Again, Dev, we've been through this before, and you always back down.
Unfortunately, you've already spilled the beans: you did so with your
comments to Arny, about his ****ing his dead kid or whatever, and now
you've done so with me. You guys are all the same: you pretend like you
nice guys, right up until you're slapped in the face with your own
hypocrisy, and then you go ape ****. Meanwhile, *I'm* the one with the
guts to stick my neck out, have a legitimate identity, and have
legitimate audio topics to discuss.


I'm afraid your control-freak attempts to deflect the conversation
away from the actual *topic* of discussion won't be successful,


No, I think they will. You've become yet another anonymouse to be dealt
with, that's all.


either. None of the issues you have raised--my job, my family, my
name, my dick


????


--have anything to do with your speakers. But I think
potential customers will find it instructional to consider the
subjects you chose to raise for your rebuttal.


????


BTW, I know *you* know you've lost the argument when you spin off on a
tangent like this. Are you so desperately terrified you can't address
the issues? No? Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?


Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now? Last time that
happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
you were toast. Are we going to go a few rounds again? I told you
once, Dev, I'm sick of your bull****. If you want to get tossed to the
canvas again, so be it. It DIGUSTS me to see you take the same line of
inquiry as Mickey McKelvey, btw.


Try to focus, now.


That's my line. And I don't give anonymice the time of day, except in
rare cases when it amuses me.


The subject is your speakers. Not George, not me,
not Bob, not Arnii, not incest. Your speakers. Try to focus your reply
entirely on that subject. I bet you can't.

Thirty pounds overweight, indeed. LOL!


How predictable. Where's your photo, anonymouse?

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky wrote:

snip

I asked:

Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.

Last time that
happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
you were toast.

Yes--you outed my gay son on Usenet. Very brave of you.

I've outed you as a fraud.

snip

--
td

The Devil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky wrote:

snip

I asked:


Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?


Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?


There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.


Last time that
happened I couldn't help but reference one of your family members, and
you were toast.


Yes--you outed my gay son on Usenet. Very brave of you.


But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:58:16 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?


Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?


There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

OK--since you make the suggestion, my rules of engagement now limit
all our discussions to 'your' speaker design and Madisound, which is
what we're actually supposed to be talking about in any case. Let's
keep to the mother****ing legitimate audio discussion, shall we?

So off you go. First of all, tell us how much Madisound charged you to
design the crossover.

--
td

trotsky said:

But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.

Since you brought it up, did you or did you not kill your father? Was
he or was he not named Laius? Did he or did he not rape Krooger years
ago?

I'd like to discuss this. Maybe "Dev" will too.


P.S. Note that "your" is the possessive pronoun and "you're" is a
contraction of "you are". It should be easy for you to remember that
an apostrophe represents only one of two things -- possession or
contraction. Or is that too complex a concept for a mother****ing
father-murderer like you?

Lionel wrote:


How can you imagine that Greg "Trotsky" Singh has already manufacture
one speaker.
Bob Morein was right Jupiter-Audio is a fake company !

I wish it was fake, but he's actually making speakers. Sad, really -
he could do it right as I suggested and learn how to do it correctly,
or he's in for months and possibly years(given his stubborn ego) of
hair-pulling and blaiming everyone in the world for his problems other
than a lack of serious knowledge.

trotsky wrote:



The Devil wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky wrote:

snip

I asked:


Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?



Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?



There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:q9v3ovs47ghn02pqrppdp49o1ju03qv4cj@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:32:07 GMT, trotsky wrote:

"The Devil" wrote in message
newsbf3ovg357jcfa46n419es5ddl6qctbhov@rdmzrnew stxt.nz

Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they
designed the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?

There you have it, folks.

Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first posted:

From: "Michael Mckelvy"
Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
Subject: Trotsky, please listen to me.
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vl....supernews.com

"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match through Madisound"

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a hunch.

Most of us kinda figured it out a little over a month ago.

You're really a brilliant genius, aren't you Graham? It only took you a
month to figure this out after it was posted on RAO? LOL!

trotsky wrote:

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.


Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets. Add a little stain
and presto. Yeesh. No wonder his prices are outrageous. He's
paying retail for their crappy Chinese made products instead of
buying them at 1/3 the cost directly from the manufacturer.


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.

Look at that frequency graph. That's terrible. The Madisound
woofers are good, though. Not as good as, say, the Morel MW168.
You could make a superb speaker with that driver without hardly
trying. The Seas H1208 is also a good driver, but at $65 each,
obviously more than the tightwad wants to spend. I bet he doesn't
even use high quality caps - probably cheaps out with the 20%
tolerance ones. Me? I'd search for 5% or better and pay the
extra $2-5 per cap - that's just me.

Better tweeter, btw, would be something like this:
Check out Fountek's JP 3.0 on the Madisound Page. It's staring
Trotsky right in the face, yet he passed on this superb driver... That
impedance and frequency graph - both really flat. If he HAD to have
a ribbon tweeter, this would have likely worked better.

Me - I'd not use it because it was made in China, but that doesn't
seem to bother Greg. He could use a nice ScanSpeak 2905/9300
or a Vifa MG27TG39-04 - both would be good less expensive choices.

The Devil wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:58:16 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?


There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.


No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

Hence why my posts about the fact that he is a retailer, no different
than a mom and pop computer shop. They design, he gets the parts in -
and assembles. Puts his sticker on it.

NOT the same as truly making a speaker.

Shoot - he didn't even know enough to make a better crossover from scratch.

Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:

So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.

Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

[snip--Greg didn't design the Europas]

Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first posted:

From: "Michael Mckelvy"
Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
Subject: Trotsky, please listen to me.
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vl....supernews.com

"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match through Madisound"

Yes, I saw this. But that was nothing more than duh-Mickey's rabid
conjecture. In his reply to my post, Greg blabbed something about
'privileged information', which I assume refers to a particular aspect
of a phone conversation we had some time ago.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

Mickey guessed at that and got no answer. I felt certain Greg didn't
design the speakers, and when I mentioned it he replied in a manner
that suggested that guess was correct. He could only mean one thing by
'privileged information', but since that conversation was private, I'm
not going to disclose it.

You really should stick to molesting choir boys, Mr Christian.

--
td

The Devil wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:58:16 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Well, with you being so forthcoming and all that, you
won't mind telling us what tradeoffs Madisound made when they designed
the Europas' crossovers, will you?

Wow, are we going to discuss privileged information now?


There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.


No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?


What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.


But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.


OK--since you make the suggestion, my rules of engagement now limit
all our discussions to 'your' speaker design and Madisound, which is
what we're actually supposed to be talking about in any case. Let's
keep to the mother****ing legitimate audio discussion, shall we?


No, actually I was just trolling to give myself another chance to call
you an anonymous loser. Looks like you fell for it. Who'd you say was
the control freak? At least humor me with an explanation: what's your
pretend reason for being anonymous?


So off you go. First of all, tell us how much Madisound charged you to
design the crossover.


No, Dev. Every time I come on this group we talk about me. It gets old
after a while. I already told you to grow some ******** so you can talk
about yourself. How long is that going to take?

George M. Middius wrote:

trotsky said:


But tell me, why should we stop there? Aren't there other family
members you'd like to discuss? I'm just playing by your rules here,
Dev. You're welcome to try and change the rules of engagement at any time.


Since you brought it up, did you or did you not kill your father? Was
he or was he not named Laius? Did he or did he not rape Krooger years
ago?


George, you really, really need to be on medication. I'll bet even
Bruce Richman would agree.


I'd like to discuss this. Maybe "Dev" will too.


P.S. Note that "your" is the possessive pronoun and "you're" is a
contraction of "you are". It should be easy for you to remember that
an apostrophe represents only one of two things -- possession or
contraction. Or is that too complex a concept for a mother****ing
father-murderer like you?



Zzzz.

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:33:04 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.

No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.

That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?

What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.

Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
no.

If your are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
be in it.

--
td

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.



Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.


I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?

The Devil wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:33:04 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Madisound doesn't sell a kit with Silver Flutes. Good guess, though.



No--you're quite right. I misspoke. I made some phone calls and
confirmed that Madisound will design crossovers and suggest enclosures
for the drivers they sell. I mischaracterised this service as a 'kit',
which it is, of a sort--just one tailored to the drivers you bought
from them, not the more typical off-the-shelf package affair.



That's how you were able to put together the Europa's. Madisound
designed the crossovers and they told you what volume box to stick the
drivers in. Am I right or am I right?


What are you on about here, Dev? Are you looking to build your own
speakers? Go for it--I'm sure they'll be fascinating.


Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
no.


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
reason to drink.


If your


Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!


are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
be in it.


You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:03:21 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
no.


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
reason to drink.


If your


Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!


are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this
discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
be in it.


You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
crossovers. Thanks.

Any more questions, anyone?

--
td

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:43:37 GMT, trotsky wrote:

I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?

And the kitten, having tied itself up in the half-knitted cardigan, no
longer had the energy to be angry. Within seconds, it had fallen
asleep on its back.

--
td

George M. Middius wrote:


Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:


So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.


Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)

trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.




Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.



I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?


Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

trotsky wrote:


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
reason to drink.

Ooo - someone hit a nerve.

As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.

Obie Wanna Unclench His Bulldog Jaws said:

Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)

My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:

Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.

I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?

Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.

You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
"doing the design", and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
would sound awful. Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
(albeit an off-the-shelf one), which proved you WRONG.

Give the little sweathog his due: The speakers don't sound terrible
because they were "designed" by a qualified designer. If you want to
keep blasting him about the speakers, give up the "debating trade"
crap (like the slimy exchange about the cabinets). The fact is that
the speakers are based on a legitimate design, they look nice, and
they perform at least adequately. Maybe Gregipus did stumble on a
niche for potential success. As you know, the biggest fault found by
dave weil in his test drive is the lack of low bass. However, this
deficit is stated plainly on his Web site -- FR is given as 50-20000
Hz. Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a sub.

Maybe *you* think it's a ripoff because *you* love to tinker up to
your elbows. I'd say *you* are not in the demo on this one.

You need to revert to the one criticism you've made that's valid even
after the disclosure about Madisound: The speakers are overpriced.
Gregipus can legitimately argue that they perform comparably to other
$1300 speakers. You can legitimately counter that the justification
for such a large markup over cost is generally taken to be the trials
of R&D, which you know he didn't do. (Do you know that all small
speaker companies did a lot of costly R&D? No, of course you don't.)

If you don't want to make yourself into as much of an audio fool as
you are a politics fool, you need to come up with a new argument. Mine
is that trotsky is a whacked-out headcase and an arrogant asshole.
Nobody has been able to prove that one wrong. Maybe you should try it.

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:un84ov04ck3598dm67kmfnekbs31fnsnho@rdmzrnewst xt.nz

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:56 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:q9v3ovs47ghn02pqrppdp49o1ju03qv4cj@rdmzrnew stxt.nz

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.
[
Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a hunch.

Most of us kinda figured it out a little over a month ago.

You're really a brilliant genius, aren't you Graham? It only took you a
month to figure this out after it was posted on RAO? LOL!

Well, most of us figured this out about the time this was first
posted:

From: "Michael Mckelvy"
Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
Subject: Trotsky, please listen to me.
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0700

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=vl....supernews.com

"Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
modeling of xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker
cabinets, I would guess that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match
through Madisound"

Yes, I saw this. But that was nothing more than duh-Mickey's rabid
conjecture.

It was so *rabid* that it is now known to be 100% accurate!

LOL!

Graham, Singh had already confirmed part of it, and you didn't *get it*!

In his reply to my post, Greg blabbed something about
'privileged information', which I assume refers to a particular aspect
of a phone conversation we had some time ago.

Irrelevant to the fact that Mckelvy was 100% right. Graham, you're totally
insane to continue to insult him. You really ought to give the man his due.
This just shows how mentally spiritually and morally miniscule of a man you
really are.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

Dooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike Mckelvy posted this information over a month ago!

Mickey guessed at that and got no answer.

Much of what Mckelvy posted at that time was already known to be true, such
as Madisound's role as parts supplier. It was well-known to most of us (but
apparently not you, Graham) that designing even a mediocre loudspeaker
crossover was beyond Singh's virtually non-existent technical abilities.

I felt certain Greg didn't
design the speakers, and when I mentioned it he replied in a manner
that suggested that guess was correct. He could only mean one thing by
'privileged information', but since that conversation was private, I'm
not going to disclose it.

Graham, it was very clear to many of us that Singh was too technically
incompetent to actually design even a mediocre speaker. As usual you
dismissed our technically-informed comments. As usual you were wrong to
dismiss the comments of people who obviously understand these matters better
than you.

Ironically, now that *all* of the details of Mckelvy's analysis have been
proven to be true, you continue to diss him and his analysis.

It just shows once again what a flaming numskull you really are, Graham!

Even when the facts prove that Mckelvy was 100% right, you continue to
insult him.

BTW thanks Graham for admitting that you've been conspiring with Singh. Too
bad you've parted ways. You losers really need to stick together better than
this.

You really should stick to molesting choir boys, Mr Christian.

Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that you've
always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil of your mind.

"trotsky" wrote in message


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
yourself a reason to drink.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Graham, you're still the proud writer of pedophile fiction that you've
always been. Don't try to contaminate me with the night soil of your mind.


You mean those fictional stories about having received pedophilic material
in the mail from an unknown source. Oh....that was you that wrote that.




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

The Devil wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:03:21 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Are you denying that Madisound designed the crossovers for you? Yes or
no.


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed of
yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some more.
For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give yourself a
reason to drink.



If your


Oh boy, is George gonna have words with you!


are denying it, then I hope you don't mind me furthering this

discussion. I would be grateful if you could assist Jupiter Audio's
potential customers by telling them what design decisions you
contributed to the Europa, besides deciding how much stuffing should
be in it.


You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.


I'll take that as no denial--they are indeed Madisound-designed
crossovers. Thanks.

Any more questions, anyone?



That's all you've got, Dev? How much longer till you crawl back to your
usual state of observing everything through an alcoholic haze?

The Devil wrote:
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:43:37 GMT, trotsky wrote:


I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe, do
you have good taste in anything?


And the kitten, having tied itself up in the half-knitted cardigan, no
longer had the energy to be angry. Within seconds, it had fallen
asleep on its back.


And never has Zzzz been a more fitting reply. Let me guess, you come up
with the writing on the back of toothpaste containers for a living.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
George M. Middius wrote:


Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:


So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.



Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?


Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)



Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
them. Be sure to include a Zobel network if necessary. If you can't do
it, could you please apologize to the group for being a liar and a
beatoff? TIA.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

There you have it, folks.

Greg didn't design these speakers. Madisound designed them.

And FWIW, I didn't *know* they were Madisound kits, I just had a
hunch.





Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.




I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison. Joe,
do you have good taste in anything?


Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.



Then you don't know dick about audio, Joe.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
trotsky wrote:


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
yourself a reason to drink.


Ooo - someone hit a nerve.

As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.


True, because I'm not a cowardly, putrid anonymouse. Do you have a
website, Joe? I'd like to check it out, please.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
yourself a reason to drink.


Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?


You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you cower
with your own personal details because all it takes is a tidbit of
information and you're a dead duck. Coward.


Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?


Fewer than you, Arny.

trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing ashamed
of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't about my being
honest with dave, this is about you having another chance to be an
asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and just drink some
more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for you to give
yourself a reason to drink.



Ooo - someone hit a nerve.

As usual, Greg is terribly easy to pin down.



True, because I'm not a cowardly, putrid anonymouse. Do you have a
website, Joe? I'd like to check it out, please.


How to find a nerve in a his fatty body ?

LOL !

"trotsky" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message


Sorry, Dev, but we're not going there. You should be ****ing
ashamed of yourself, you two-faced son of a bitch. This isn't
about my being honest with dave, this is about you having another
chance to be an asshole. Later you'll hang your head in shame and
just drink some more. For all I know this is an elaborate ruse for
you to give yourself a reason to drink.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

You don't give a flying **** about me or my business. You're just
looking for an new target, and I happen to be it. Meanwhile you
cower with your own personal details because all it takes is a
tidbit of information and you're a dead duck. Coward.

Gosh, how many years did it take for you to figure THIS out?

Fewer than you, Arny.

I ain't the guy that was spilling my guts and giving proprietary info to
Graham the past few weeks, Singh. You are. You've known Graham for how many
years?

I figured out that Graham was a figurative street person with delusions of
grandeur within a few days of his first post here.

Why are you, facts and reason such strangers, Singh? While you're sharing
proprietary *secrets* with us, could you reveal which brand of *stupid*
pills you use?

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

Obie Wanna Unclench His Bulldog Jaws said:

Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?

Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)

My, you're certainly a two-faced coward, aren't you?

It rather obviously takes one to know one as well as you seem to, now. The
ironic part is that it takes you zombies so long to figure it out when it's
this obvious.

"trotsky" wrote in message

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
George M. Middius wrote:


Obie Wanna New Thing To Gripe About said:


So you took their design and added a "better" tweeter. Big deal.
I'd still be ****ed at you if I was them for so closely copying
their designs. The silverflute is on Madisound's site as well.



Now that you have Gregipus nailed, are you going to revisit your
accusation that his speakers are not based on any real R&D?


Not any that HE did. He didn't even bother to pull out an
old electronics book and make a crossover himself.(not rocket
science to make what he's using, afterall)

Here's a challenge, Joe: pick two drivers and design a crossover for
them.

First Greg, give us the URL of Joe's loudspeaker sales web site. You know,
the one like yours. As soon as you do that, your challenge might even be
relevant.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message


Obie Wanna Wail and Whine said:

More childish name-calling from Middius. When will this little boy grow up?
He's pushing 40 it's said. How many 40-year-olds do you know who actually
talk like this in public?

Check out the madisound "woodstyle" cabinets.

I have. They're ****. My cabinets are superb in comparison.
Joe, do you have good taste in anything?

Cabinet finish doesn;t mean squat to the sound of the speaker.

You're sounding more trotsky-like every day.

Absolutely wrong, Middius. you just quoted Greg bragging about the quality
of his cabinetry. Do you read your own posts?

Same basic question as I posed to Greg, Middius. Why are you, truth and
reason such strangers?

You accused trotsky of slapping together components at random, without
"doing the design",

Now known to be a correct hypothesis.

and you claimed this was a guarantee his speakers
would sound awful.

I don't seem to recall this ever happening. Perhaps this was posted in some
other rec.audio.opinion newsgroup?

LOL!

Subsequently, it transpired that his own R&D
contribution was superseded because he was using a proven design
(albeit an off-the-shelf one), which proved you WRONG.

Middius, you obviously don't know what the phrase "proven design" means.
Anybody who thinks that a Madisound LEAP-based analysis is anything but a
starting point has to be really ignorant. The shoe fits, doesn't it?

Give the little sweathog his due: The speakers don't sound terrible
because they were "designed" by a qualified designer.

This is so naive it's not even funny. A loudspeaker design has many
elements, and an theory and bench-measurement based design of a crossover
network is an incomplete part of just one of those elements. Most designers
would see it as a starting point, at best.

If you want to
keep blasting him about the speakers, give up the "debating trade"
crap (like the slimy exchange about the cabinets).

The slime came from Singh. You should take this up with him not Oberlander.

The fact is that
the speakers are based on a legitimate design,

Wrong, for reasons already stated.

they look nice,

The only part of this discussion you're even vaguely equipped to comment on,
Middius.

and they perform at least adequately.

Change *adequate* to *mediocre* and you're probably closer to the truth.

Maybe Gregipus did stumble on a niche for potential success.

Given the pitfalls of speaker design and marketing, Greg would do better
investing the money in lottery tickets.

As you know, the biggest fault found by
dave weil in his test drive is the lack of low bass.

As if Dave Weil can find *anything* but has-been speakers with busted
drivers at rock-bottom prices.

However, this
deficit is stated plainly on his Web site -- FR is given as 50-20000
Hz.

Note that we now have Middius telling us that loudspeaker specs are
meaningful. Nobody should fail to notice his hypocrisy or fail to remind him
of it early and often.

Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a sub.

Nobody should be surprised that the Europas need a *real engineer* and a
*real marketing staff*.

Maybe *you* think it's a ripoff because *you* love to tinker up to
your elbows.

No, it has something to do with having a brain. Oberlander rather
consistently recommends commercial designs from respected manufacturers with
known and substantial technical and marketing assets.

I'd say *you* are not in the demo on this one.

What demo? I notice that my challenge to Singh and Weil to produce a UPS (or
competitive vendor) tracking number for the shipment from Chicago to
Nashville went unanswered. No tracking number, no shipment. No shipment,
imaginary speakers.

You need to revert to the one criticism you've made that's valid even
after the disclosure about Madisound: The speakers are overpriced.

I think that's the gist of what everybody with a brain has been complaining
about.

Gregipus can legitimately argue that they perform comparably to other
$1300 speakers.

In this crowded competitive market it takes more than Singh's posturing and
profane weirdness (the man doesn't know how to argue decently!) to sell a
speaker.

You can legitimately counter that the justification
for such a large markup over cost is generally taken to be the trials
of R&D, which you know he didn't do.

Several informed people made this accusation, which up until about 24 hours
ago was dismissed by people like Middius, Weil, Graham , etc.

(Do you know that all small
speaker companies did a lot of costly R&D? No, of course you don't.)

The ones that are successful and have technically-competent products didn't
get their designs for $40 from Madisound, that's for sure!

If you don't want to make yourself into as much of an audio fool as
you are a politics fool, you need to come up with a new argument.

As if you're anything but a posturing politics fool yourself, Middius.

Mine is that trotsky is a whacked-out headcase and an arrogant asshole.

You forgot to add that along with Graham, Yustabe, Sockpuppet Wheel, and
Weil, you're quite a little group.

Nobody has been able to prove that one wrong.

I think you tried to for several years before you saw the light, Middius.

Maybe you should try it.

Been there, done that years and years ago.