Better Solid State Phono Sections

[[email protected]]

We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
tube or FET condenser mic.

What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
What have you readers out there built and liked?

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be
at
> the turntable instead of the preamp,
>
>

Now there's a new idea..... :-(
>
>


> indeed, if you have a stereo amp
> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp,
>
>


Say _what_??

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
oups.com
> wrote:

>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be
>> at the turntable instead of the preamp,

> Now there's a new idea..... :-(

Agreed. Back in the old days, it was not the least bit unusual to find a
phono preamp tucked away in the base of a turntable. This was especially
popular at radio stations.

[Michael Conzo]

In article . com,
" > wrote:

> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
> phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
> tube or FET condenser mic.

Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques? It surely isn't relevant here.

[Clyde Slick]

"Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com,
> " > wrote:
>
>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
>> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
>> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
>> phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
>> tube or FET condenser mic.
>
> Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques? It surely isn't relevant here.
>

Shouldn't you be posting in
alt.obnoxious.assholes.whowanttocensureand/orwanttodominatediscussions?
If you aren't interested in a thread, don't read it.



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[Arny Krueger]

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message



> Shouldn't you be posting in
> alt.obnoxious.assholes.whowanttocensureand/orwanttodominatediscussions?

I guess that answers the question; Where did Art Sackman come from, anyhow?

[Arny Krueger]

"Michael Conzo" > wrote in message

> In article . com,
> " > wrote:
>
>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be
>> at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo
>> amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also
>> because the phono section should be close, very close, to the
>> cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic.

> Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques?

Agreed.

> It surely isn't relevant here.

Given the backward mentality that some would like to promote here, its
probably more relevant here than we'd like to admit.

However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that our
local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation.

[Eiron]

wrote:

> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
> phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
> tube or FET condenser mic.
>
> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
> treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
> plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
> What have you readers out there built and liked?

A useful modification that you can do with the preamp close to the
cartridge is:

Normal - cartrige is connected between ground and +in,
feedback is to -in.

Mod - ground is connected to +in, cartridge is between the feedback
point and -in.

This was used in the E.F. Taylor preamp from Wireless World in 1977?
and reduces distortion significantly, while needing very little change
to a normal circuit.

--
Eiron.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
>
> > In article . com,
> > " > wrote:
> >
> >> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should
be
> >> at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a
stereo
> >> amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also
> >> because the phono section should be close, very close, to the
> >> cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic.
>
> > Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques?
>
> Agreed.
>
> > It surely isn't relevant here.
>
> Given the backward mentality that some would like to promote here,
its
> probably more relevant here than we'd like to admit.
>
> However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that
our
> local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation.
>
>

"Everything old is new again." Ain't it a hoot?

[mick]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:07:05 -0800, calcerise wrote:

> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with
> volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono
> section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or
> FET condenser mic.
>
> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
> treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
> plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
> What have you readers out there built and liked?

Sounds sensible to use balanced inputs and put the preamp & RIAA
correction as close as possible to the cartridge. That way you will
minimise hum & noise pickup and be able to work with a nominally "flat",
line-level output. It's only like using an in-line transformer for a low
output MC but more versatile. You may like to look at some way of getting
at the cartridge loading if you are considering building the electronics
into the plinth though.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
> However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that our
> local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation.
>
>

So, that's what makes you laugh, screen doors in submarines.



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> wrote in message
oups.com...
> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
> phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
> tube or FET condenser mic.

Theoretically this is a good idea. Certainly it reduces the length of cable
carrying the low level signal from the cartridge. In practice, however,
most all the pickup problems occur in the cartridge coils, not the
connecting wire. IOW, you are solving a non-problem, and spending money to
do it.

So why is a built-in preamp so common in radio station turntables? Because
radio stations don't have phono preamps built in to their consoles. They
have mike preamps, but these don't have the necessary RIAA compensation.

Norm Strong

[Sander deWaal]

said:

> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
>the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
>with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
>phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
>tube or FET condenser mic.

> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
>treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
>plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
>What have you readers out there built and liked?


An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
the headshell or the arm.
That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
frequency of the arm/cart combo.
Differential inputs and phantom power supply.

One of these days I'm going to try that.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Ruud Broens]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: said:
:
: > We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
: >the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
: >with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
: >phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
: >tube or FET condenser mic.
:
: > What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
: >treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
: >plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
: >What have you readers out there built and liked?
:
:
: An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
: the headshell or the arm.
: That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
: frequency of the arm/cart combo.
: Differential inputs and phantom power supply.
:
: One of these days I'm going to try that.
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Hehe, i can tell, you've taken apart harddisks, right ?
preamp there right on the arm, on a kevlar flex pcb :-)
RB

[Sander deWaal]

"Ruud Broens" > said:

>: An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
>: the headshell or the arm.
>: That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
>: frequency of the arm/cart combo.
>: Differential inputs and phantom power supply.

>: One of these days I'm going to try that.

>Hehe, i can tell, you've taken apart harddisks, right ?
>preamp there right on the arm, on a kevlar flex pcb :-)
>RB


I must confess that opening up a HDD gave me the idea ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Ruud Broens]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: "Ruud Broens" > said:
:
: >: An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
: >: the headshell or the arm.
: >: That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
: >: frequency of the arm/cart combo.
: >: Differential inputs and phantom power supply.
:
: >: One of these days I'm going to try that.
:
: >Hehe, i can tell, you've taken apart harddisks, right ?
: >preamp there right on the arm, on a kevlar flex pcb :-)
: >RB
:
:
: I must confess that opening up a HDD gave me the idea ;-)
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Are you sure you don't want two 6N16B's stuck out there ;_) ?
hehe,
Rudy

[Sander deWaal]

"Ruud Broens" > said:

>Are you sure you don't want two 6N16B's stuck out there ;_) ?
>hehe,


For MC, I prefer solid state amplification.
For MM, well.......we can always try.
It seems to have worked since roughly 1965 or so ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[[email protected]]

As usual Arny you miss the point. No, it isn't new. But it's not
commonly done now. There are a lot of things not commonly done now that
are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new. And of
course there are a lot of things that are new but not necessarily an
improvement.

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
oups.com

> As usual Arny you miss the point.

Well Cal, you never did know how to take responsibility for your own
misdeeds.

>No, it isn't new.

Well Cal, at least you got that right the second time around, after being
corrected by a few of us.

> But it's not commonly done now.

*Nothing* to do with LPs is done commonly now. However, there are a number
of turntables on the market that not only include their own preamp, they
also include their own DAC so the turntable's output is digital.

>There are a lot of things not commonly done now
> that are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new.

Yeah Cal, there's this new thing called the CD - you ought to try it
sometime. It's not new, and in your world apparently it isn't done very
often, but it is nevertheless an improvement.

> And of course there are a lot of things that are new but not necessarily
> an
> improvement.

Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new
tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
silicon solid state...

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:

>Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new
>tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
>silicon solid state...


Can you tell us some more about them, mr. Krueger?
Like, do they suffer from Miller effect, like those pesky tubes do?

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Ruud Broens]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: "Arny Krueger" > said:
:
: >Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new
: >tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
: >silicon solid state...
:
:
: Can you tell us some more about them, mr. Krueger?
: Like, do they suffer from Miller effect, like those pesky tubes do?
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

No, he's of course referring to solid state microtube technology .. he *does*
keep up, you know :-)
Rudy

[Sander deWaal]

"Ruud Broens" > said:

>: >Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new
>: >tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
>: >silicon solid state...

>: Can you tell us some more about them, mr. Krueger?
>: Like, do they suffer from Miller effect, like those pesky tubes do?

>No, he's of course referring to solid state microtube technology .. he *does*
>keep up, you know :-)
>Rudy


That's a novelty, note.

Why am I talking to my sockpuppet or vice-versa? ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Ruud Broens]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: "Ruud Broens" > said:
:
: >: >Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new
: >: >tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
: >: >silicon solid state...
:
: >: Can you tell us some more about them, mr. Krueger?
: >: Like, do they suffer from Miller effect, like those pesky tubes do?
:
: >No, he's of course referring to solid state microtube technology .. he *does*
: >keep up, you know :-)
: >Rudy
:
:
: That's a novelty, note.
:
: Why am I talking to my sockpuppet or vice-versa? ;-)
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

why..it's double the fun
OR
at least it *is* fun compared to flamed degenerated threaddies.

Rudy

[Ron]

On 12 Feb 2005 14:07:05 -0800, wrote:

> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
>the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
>with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
>phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
>tube or FET condenser mic.

Excellent idea. I own a Revox B791 turntable that -- required in my
system setup -- is located about 15 ft. away from my preamp. I built
a SS preamp into the TT base, powered by the TT power supply.

Originally, I used a phono preamp board taken out of a Creek OBH-8.
This works for years with pretty god results. I recently reassembled
the OBH-8 and replaced it with a Bugle board. I also revamped the
power supply section that feeds the preamp. On initial tests, it
sounded better than the OBH-8 -- more detailed and more analytical
(that some people make hate but I like). I then got bogged down with
other projects and havn't finished this one yet....

-- Ron



>
> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
>treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
>plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
>What have you readers out there built and liked?

[Ron]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:07:16 -0800, >
wrote:

>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
>> the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
>> with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
>> phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
>> tube or FET condenser mic.
>
>Theoretically this is a good idea. Certainly it reduces the length of cable
>carrying the low level signal from the cartridge. In practice, however,
>most all the pickup problems occur in the cartridge coils, not the
>connecting wire.

Not really. I have seen many, many cases where a serious hum problem
was corrected by dealing with the wiring.

> IOW, you are solving a non-problem, and spending money to
>do it.
>
>So why is a built-in preamp so common in radio station turntables? Because
>radio stations don't have phono preamps built in to their consoles.

True. Which is why I did it -- my premap does not have a phono
input.

-- Ron

They
>have mike preamps, but these don't have the necessary RIAA compensation.
>
>Norm Strong
>

[Ron]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal
> wrote:

said:
>
>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
>>the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp
>>with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the
>>phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a
>>tube or FET condenser mic.
>
>> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
>>treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should
>>plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used?
>>What have you readers out there built and liked?
>
>
>An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
>the headshell or the arm.
>That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
>frequency of the arm/cart combo.

Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's
going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or
similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a
cartridge shell.

-- Ron

>Differential inputs and phantom power supply.
>
>One of these days I'm going to try that.

[Arny Krueger]

"Ron" > wrote in message

> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal
> > wrote:
>
>> said:
>>
>>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be
>>> at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a
>>> stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but
>>> also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the
>>> cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic.
>>
>>> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
>>> treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and
>>> should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar
>>> supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked?
>>
>>
>> An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
>> the headshell or the arm.
>> That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
>> frequency of the arm/cart combo.

Agreed.

> Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's
> going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or
> similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a
> cartridge shell.

I disagree. A true SOTA implementation of this idea would be on a chip
embedded in the cartridge itself. The chip and its packaging would displace
its approximate weight in existing filler material. If you take most
cartrdiges apart, the body of the cartridge has got a lot of empty space and
filler. The working pieces are kinda odd-shaped so the filler is needed to
provide the regular shaped package we see.

>> Differential inputs and phantom power supply.

Agreed.

For extra credit - the output would be digital - two wires, one ground and
one phantom supply & data out.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:12:38 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>>> That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
>>> frequency of the arm/cart combo.
>
>Agreed.

Or even better, be designed so that the mass of the added componetry
is designed to be as integral to the mass and resonance of the tonearm
as, say, the armtube itself. Make it a design feature.

[Ron]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:12:38 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
> wrote:

>"Ron" > wrote in message

>> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be
>>>> at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a
>>>> stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but
>>>> also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the
>>>> cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic.
>>>
>>>> What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they
>>>> treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and
>>>> should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar
>>>> supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked?
>>>
>>>
>>> An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into
>>> the headshell or the arm.
>>> That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance
>>> frequency of the arm/cart combo.
>
>Agreed.
>
>> Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's
>> going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or
>> similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a
>> cartridge shell.
>
>I disagree. A true SOTA implementation of this idea would be on a chip
>embedded in the cartridge itself. The chip and its packaging would displace
>its approximate weight in existing filler material. If you take most
>cartrdiges apart, the body of the cartridge has got a lot of empty space and
>filler. The working pieces are kinda odd-shaped so the filler is needed to
>provide the regular shaped package we see.

Not to be argumentative, but I actually tried the idea, many years
ago, on a hard disk drive. I was working on an effor to increase bit
density on the platter, which resulted in lower S/N ratio, which
this idea (we hoped) would solve. The added head mass, coupled
with the required a lower flying height made the implementation
impractical.

Granted, today's technology could change all that, though I wouldn't
hold my breath. A phono preamp requires accurate frequency shaping
(all we needed was amplification) -- difficult to achieve accurately
when you must resort to capacitance multiplying. Seems like an
ecxellent idea, until you try to actually implement.

Nothing is impossible for the people that don't have to do it :-).

-- Ron

>
>>> Differential inputs and phantom power supply.
>
>Agreed.
>
>For extra credit - the output would be digital - two wires, one ground and
>one phantom supply & data out.
>
>

[[email protected]]

Kroo>>
>
> >No, it isn't new.
>
> Well Cal, at least you got that right the second time around, after
being
> corrected by a few of us.
>
> > But it's not commonly done now.
>
> *Nothing* to do with LPs is done commonly now. However, there are a
number
> of turntables on the market that not only include their own preamp,
they
> also include their own DAC so the turntable's output is digital.
>
Horse****, Arny. Many BILLIONS of phono records exist and are still
listened to. They are even still manufactured, though to a lesser
extent now than in the past.

Aside from the laser turntables, the only tables with onboard pre with
which I'm familiar are the old EMT's. They're certainly not offered
through high end channels, nor through broadcast suppliers.








> >There are a lot of things not commonly done now
> > that are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new.
>
> Yeah Cal, there's this new thing called the CD - you ought to try it
> sometime. It's not new, and in your world apparently it isn't done
very
> often, but it is nevertheless an improvement.

I have a lot of CDs. They're convenient, et al. But they are hardly
the last word on digital music distribution. Youn know that you are
just promoting the Wal-Mart mass audio mentality.
>
> > And of course there are a lot of things that are new but not
necessarily
> > an
> > improvement.
>
> Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are
these new
> tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about
> silicon solid state...

Yes, there's also germanium, gallium arsenide, and other
semiconductors. They have been around fifty years and in the last ten
to fifteen have started to approach the audio quality of a really first
rate tube amplifier, I own several myself. But for now a really good
tube amp sounds better.

[Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro]

wrote:
> We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
> the turntable instead of the preamp,

Turntables with line output:

Pro-Ject Debut/Phono SB
Manual turntable with electro mechanic speed change,
fitted cartridge and integrated MM phono pre-amplifier

http://www.project-audio.com/en/debphsb.html


Kenwood P110, Pioneer PL-990, Denon DP 29F
http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi/PlatineTD/TD_Eco.html


Vestax BDT-2500 :
http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi/PlatineTD/TD_Audiophile.html


SONY - PS-J20
http://www.multe-pass.com/boutique/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=218476

--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/

..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94