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#1
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Better Solid State Phono Sections
We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at
the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked? |
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#3
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wrote in message
oups.com wrote: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, Now there's a new idea..... :-( Agreed. Back in the old days, it was not the least bit unusual to find a phono preamp tucked away in the base of a turntable. This was especially popular at radio stations. |
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#4
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#5
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"Michael Conzo" wrote in message ... In article , " wrote: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques? It surely isn't relevant here. Shouldn't you be posting in alt.obnoxious.assholes.whowanttocensureand/orwanttodominatediscussions? If you aren't interested in a thread, don't read it. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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#6
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"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
Shouldn't you be posting in alt.obnoxious.assholes.whowanttocensureand/orwanttodominatediscussions? I guess that answers the question; Where did Art Sackman come from, anyhow? |
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#7
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"Michael Conzo" wrote in message
In article , " wrote: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques? Agreed. It surely isn't relevant here. Given the backward mentality that some would like to promote here, its probably more relevant here than we'd like to admit. However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that our local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation. |
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#8
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Arny Krueger wrote: "Michael Conzo" wrote in message In article , " wrote: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. Shouldn't this be in rec.audio.antiques? Agreed. It surely isn't relevant here. Given the backward mentality that some would like to promote here, its probably more relevant here than we'd like to admit. However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that our local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation. "Everything old is new again." Ain't it a hoot? |
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#9
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... However I think its funnier than a screen door in a submarine, that our local teczchnikul eggsphurts think this would be a good innovation. So, that's what makes you laugh, screen doors in submarines. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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#10
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As usual Arny you miss the point. No, it isn't new. But it's not
commonly done now. There are a lot of things not commonly done now that are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new. And of course there are a lot of things that are new but not necessarily an improvement. |
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#11
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wrote in message
oups.com As usual Arny you miss the point. Well Cal, you never did know how to take responsibility for your own misdeeds. No, it isn't new. Well Cal, at least you got that right the second time around, after being corrected by a few of us. But it's not commonly done now. *Nothing* to do with LPs is done commonly now. However, there are a number of turntables on the market that not only include their own preamp, they also include their own DAC so the turntable's output is digital. There are a lot of things not commonly done now that are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new. Yeah Cal, there's this new thing called the CD - you ought to try it sometime. It's not new, and in your world apparently it isn't done very often, but it is nevertheless an improvement. And of course there are a lot of things that are new but not necessarily an improvement. Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about silicon solid state... |
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#12
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"Arny Krueger" said:
Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about silicon solid state... Can you tell us some more about them, mr. Krueger? Like, do they suffer from Miller effect, like those pesky tubes do? -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#13
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Kroo No, it isn't new. Well Cal, at least you got that right the second time around, after being corrected by a few of us. But it's not commonly done now. *Nothing* to do with LPs is done commonly now. However, there are a number of turntables on the market that not only include their own preamp, they also include their own DAC so the turntable's output is digital. Horse****, Arny. Many BILLIONS of phono records exist and are still listened to. They are even still manufactured, though to a lesser extent now than in the past. Aside from the laser turntables, the only tables with onboard pre with which I'm familiar are the old EMT's. They're certainly not offered through high end channels, nor through broadcast suppliers. There are a lot of things not commonly done now that are nevertheless an improvement, even if they are not new. Yeah Cal, there's this new thing called the CD - you ought to try it sometime. It's not new, and in your world apparently it isn't done very often, but it is nevertheless an improvement. I have a lot of CDs. They're convenient, et al. But they are hardly the last word on digital music distribution. Youn know that you are just promoting the Wal-Mart mass audio mentality. And of course there are a lot of things that are new but not necessarily an improvement. Probably more than a few less than you think, Cal. BTW there are these new tube-like things that don't have filaments. Something about silicon solid state... Yes, there's also germanium, gallium arsenide, and other semiconductors. They have been around fifty years and in the last ten to fifteen have started to approach the audio quality of a really first rate tube amplifier, I own several myself. But for now a really good tube amp sounds better. |
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#14
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#15
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:07:05 -0800, calcerise wrote:
We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked? Sounds sensible to use balanced inputs and put the preamp & RIAA correction as close as possible to the cartridge. That way you will minimise hum & noise pickup and be able to work with a nominally "flat", line-level output. It's only like using an in-line transformer for a low output MC but more versatile. You may like to look at some way of getting at the cartridge loading if you are considering building the electronics into the plinth though. -- Mick (no M$ software on here... :-) ) Web: http://www.nascom.info Web: http://projectedsound.tk |
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#16
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wrote in message oups.com... We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. Theoretically this is a good idea. Certainly it reduces the length of cable carrying the low level signal from the cartridge. In practice, however, most all the pickup problems occur in the cartridge coils, not the connecting wire. IOW, you are solving a non-problem, and spending money to do it. So why is a built-in preamp so common in radio station turntables? Because radio stations don't have phono preamps built in to their consoles. They have mike preamps, but these don't have the necessary RIAA compensation. Norm Strong |
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#17
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:07:16 -0800,
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. Theoretically this is a good idea. Certainly it reduces the length of cable carrying the low level signal from the cartridge. In practice, however, most all the pickup problems occur in the cartridge coils, not the connecting wire. Not really. I have seen many, many cases where a serious hum problem was corrected by dealing with the wiring. IOW, you are solving a non-problem, and spending money to do it. So why is a built-in preamp so common in radio station turntables? Because radio stations don't have phono preamps built in to their consoles. True. Which is why I did it -- my premap does not have a phono input. -- Ron They have mike preamps, but these don't have the necessary RIAA compensation. Norm Strong |
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#18
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#19
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#20
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"Ruud Broens" said:
: An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into : the headshell or the arm. : That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance : frequency of the arm/cart combo. : Differential inputs and phantom power supply. : One of these days I'm going to try that. Hehe, i can tell, you've taken apart harddisks, right ? preamp there right on the arm, on a kevlar flex pcb :-) RB I must confess that opening up a HDD gave me the idea ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#21
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... : "Ruud Broens" said: : : : An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into : : the headshell or the arm. : : That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance : : frequency of the arm/cart combo. : : Differential inputs and phantom power supply. : : : One of these days I'm going to try that. : : Hehe, i can tell, you've taken apart harddisks, right ? : preamp there right on the arm, on a kevlar flex pcb :-) : RB : : : I must confess that opening up a HDD gave me the idea ;-) : : -- : Sander de Waal : " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " Are you sure you don't want two 6N16B's stuck out there ;_) ? hehe, Rudy |
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#22
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"Ruud Broens" said:
Are you sure you don't want two 6N16B's stuck out there ;_) ? hehe, For MC, I prefer solid state amplification. For MM, well.......we can always try. It seems to have worked since roughly 1965 or so ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#23
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote: said: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked? An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into the headshell or the arm. That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo. Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a cartridge shell. -- Ron Differential inputs and phantom power supply. One of these days I'm going to try that. |
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#24
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"Ron" wrote in message
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal wrote: said: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked? An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into the headshell or the arm. That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo. Agreed. Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a cartridge shell. I disagree. A true SOTA implementation of this idea would be on a chip embedded in the cartridge itself. The chip and its packaging would displace its approximate weight in existing filler material. If you take most cartrdiges apart, the body of the cartridge has got a lot of empty space and filler. The working pieces are kinda odd-shaped so the filler is needed to provide the regular shaped package we see. Differential inputs and phantom power supply. Agreed. For extra credit - the output would be digital - two wires, one ground and one phantom supply & data out. |
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#25
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:12:38 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo. Agreed. Or even better, be designed so that the mass of the added componetry is designed to be as integral to the mass and resonance of the tonearm as, say, the armtube itself. Make it a design feature. |
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#26
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:12:38 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Ron" wrote in message On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:50:55 +0100, Sander deWaal wrote: said: We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, indeed, if you have a stereo amp with volume control you shouldn't need a preamp, but also because the phono section should be close, very close, to the cartridge, as with a tube or FET condenser mic. What are some good solid state phono section designs? Should they treat the cartridge as a balanced source (four wire) or not and should plus and minus DC rails be needed or should a monopolar supply be used? What have you readers out there built and liked? An old idea of mine: a small SMD RIAA conversion amp built right into the headshell or the arm. That could be so lightweight as to almost not disturb the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo. Agreed. Doubtful. Regardless of how small and light the preamp is, it's going to dramatically affect arm mass. Think SMA 3012 or similar, not to mention ReVox arms, that are essentially just a cartridge shell. I disagree. A true SOTA implementation of this idea would be on a chip embedded in the cartridge itself. The chip and its packaging would displace its approximate weight in existing filler material. If you take most cartrdiges apart, the body of the cartridge has got a lot of empty space and filler. The working pieces are kinda odd-shaped so the filler is needed to provide the regular shaped package we see. Not to be argumentative, but I actually tried the idea, many years ago, on a hard disk drive. I was working on an effor to increase bit density on the platter, which resulted in lower S/N ratio, which this idea (we hoped) would solve. The added head mass, coupled with the required a lower flying height made the implementation impractical. Granted, today's technology could change all that, though I wouldn't hold my breath. A phono preamp requires accurate frequency shaping (all we needed was amplification) -- difficult to achieve accurately when you must resort to capacitance multiplying. Seems like an ecxellent idea, until you try to actually implement. Nothing is impossible for the people that don't have to do it :-). -- Ron Differential inputs and phantom power supply. Agreed. For extra credit - the output would be digital - two wires, one ground and one phantom supply & data out. |
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#27
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#28
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wrote:
We were kicking around the concept that the phono section should be at the turntable instead of the preamp, Turntables with line output: Pro-Ject Debut/Phono SB Manual turntable with electro mechanic speed change, fitted cartridge and integrated MM phono pre-amplifier http://www.project-audio.com/en/debphsb.html Kenwood P110, Pioneer PL-990, Denon DP 29F http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi...TD/TD_Eco.html Vestax BDT-2500 : http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi...udiophile.html SONY - PS-J20 http://www.multe-pass.com/boutique/f...cfm?ref=218476 -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
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