Atkinson corruptly accepts audio discounts [Archive]

Nousaine

September 16th 04, 03:10 AM

"Michael McKelvy" wrote:

>"tor b" > wrote in message
m...
>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>
>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?

Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing' certainly
doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in and tell
use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the availability of
products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65% of MSRP) for review
samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an attraction. And the long-term loans
are an even better deal.

In my experience it's often difficult to return pieces..... manufacturers won't
"ask" for product and will occasionally send them back mistaking then for
warranty returns...I'd guess because manufacturers seem to like the fact that a
given product is still "in the field."

But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson personally
pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term loans OR his
employer pays for all the other products at accomodation pricing.

In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but readers
should be aware of what it might be.

By the way Mr Atkinson, some short time ago, made some rather vague claims
about unethical practices by people in the industry. I'd be willing to have him
tell us who, what, why, how or when.

Nousaine

September 16th 04, 03:19 AM

The Milkman wrote:

>
>"Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>>>
>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>>
>>Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes
>>collection?
>
>The mention of Mr Atkinson's Mercedes collection* was gratuitous and
>unnecessary. It is not the first time you have introduced the subject
>of JA's ownership of prestige vehicles, in this manner.
>
>Incidently, since you have failedâ„¢ to gloat about whatever vehicle you
>own (or borrow or lease) -- unlike almost every object you come into
>contact with* that would impress nobody except those below the poverty
>line, well... it's clearly a great source of embarrassement to you ;-(
>
>Tip of the day : if you concentrate on doing commercially viable
>things with your time, maybe someday in the future you will acquire
>enough money to buy the car you really desire (a Mercedes), and your
>bitterness will cease.
>
>
>
>*If indeed it is a "collection". Maybe he just owns several.
>**Or project the impression that you own - eg. B&K reference mics.
>
>
>
>----------
>I Deliver.

What's interesting about all this is that John Atkinson initiated all this by
making a reference to my Corvette infering that I was somehow "disadvantaging"
my music playback system by owning such a vehicle. while HE was just using his
discretionary dollars with 'older' vehicles and making better re-produced
music.

I'm guessing that just parking those cars in NYC far exceeds the $0 monhtly
cost of owning a paid-for Corvette. And my current sound system (7.1 channels
with a custom subwoofer) sounds just outrageously 'realistic.'

tor b

September 16th 04, 04:01 AM

"Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message t>...
> "tor b" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>
> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?

Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?

tor b

September 16th 04, 04:03 AM

dave weil > wrote in message >...
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> >"tor b" > wrote in message
> m
> >
> >> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >
> >I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>
> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...

and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)

Bruce J. Richman

September 16th 04, 04:34 AM

Nousaine wrote:

>"Michael McKelvy" wrote:
>
>>"tor b" > wrote in message
m...
>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>
>>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
>Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing' certainly
>doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in and
>tell
>use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the availability
>of
>products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65% of MSRP) for review
>samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an attraction. And the long-term
>loans
>are an even better deal.
>

Are you willing to divulge what the writers for Sound & Vision or other
magazines you write for are paid? For that matter, why should any magazine
editor or writer discuss their fees with the reading public?
It appears that you're asking for data to be provided unilaterally - hardly a
scientific inquiry.

>In my experience it's often difficult to return pieces..... manufacturers
>won't
>"ask" for product and will occasionally send them back mistaking then for
>warranty returns...I'd guess because manufacturers seem to like the fact that
>a
>given product is still "in the field."
>

So, if I understand you correctly, equipment reviewers often, in effect, end up
owning the "loaned" pieces without having to pay for them at all. That is,
indeed, a nice incentive.

>But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson
>personally
>pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term loans OR his
>employer pays for all the other products at accomodation pricing.
>

Does that differ from the practice in effect at other audio magazines?

>In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but readers
>should be aware of what it might be.
>

That same level of awareness should then apply to all audio magazines.

>By the way Mr Atkinson, some short time ago, made some rather vague claims
>about unethical practices by people in the industry. I'd be willing to have
>him
>tell us who, what, why, how or when.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bruce J. Richman

Robert Morein

September 16th 04, 06:32 AM

"tor b" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
t>...
> > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >
> > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
>
> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?

Because he brags about it :).

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 08:05 AM

"Nousaine" > wrote in message
...

> I'm guessing that just parking those cars in NYC far exceeds the $0
monhtly
> cost of owning a paid-for Corvette. And my current sound system (7.1
channels
> with a custom subwoofer) sounds just outrageously 'realistic.'

Compared to what?
The last time you had a Mariachi band stashed in the rear deck?

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 10:09 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>
>>
>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
>> Mercedes collection?
>>
>
> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.

Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures noted.

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 10:12 AM

"The Milkman" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>>>
>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>>
>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
>> Mercedes collection?
>
> The mention of Mr Atkinson's Mercedes collection* was gratuitous and
> unnecessary. It is not the first time you have introduced the subject
> of JA's ownership of prestige vehicles, in this manner.

And Atkinson's initial mention of his Mercedes collection wasn't gratuitous?
Hypocracy and hero-worship noted.

> Incidently, since you have failedT to gloat about whatever vehicle you
> own (or borrow or lease) -- unlike almost every object you come into
> contact with* that would impress nobody except those below the poverty
> line, well... it's clearly a great source of embarrassement to you ;-(

You've got me confused with people who are overly materialistic.

> Tip of the day : if you concentrate on doing commercially viable
> things with your time, maybe someday in the future you will acquire
> enough money to buy the car you really desire (a Mercedes), and your
> bitterness will cease.

No bitterness here.

> *If indeed it is a "collection". Maybe he just owns several.
> **Or project the impression that you own - eg. B&K reference mics.

I believe the term "collection" is due to Atkinson himself.

Poor historical perspective and general ignorance noted.

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 10:14 AM

"tor b" > wrote in message
om
> dave weil > wrote in message
> >...
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> m
>>>
>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>
>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>>
>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>
> and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)

Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation ceremony,
right?

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 10:14 AM

"tor b" > wrote in message
om
> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
> t>...
>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>
>> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
>
> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?

Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting any.

John Atkinson

September 16th 04, 12:16 PM

(Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message >...
> Nousaine wrote:
> >"Michael McKelvy" wrote:
> >>"tor b" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >>
> >>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
> >
> >Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing' certainly
> >doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in
> >and tell use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the
> >availability of products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65%
> >of MSRP) for review samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an
> >attraction. And the long-term loans are an even better deal.
>
> Are you willing to divulge what the writers for Sound & Vision or
> other magazines you write for are paid? For that matter, why should
> any magazine editor or writer discuss their fees with the reading public?

I agree, Dr. Richman. I don't think this is something that needs to be
made public. Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has referred
on r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.

> >But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson
> >personally pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term
> >loans OR his employer pays for all the other products at accomodation
> >pricing.
>
> Does that differ from the practice in effect at other audio magazines?

I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at other
magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of course.
Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of audio
equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to be
the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
than one reference available.

> >In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but
> >readers should be aware of what it might be.
>
> That same level of awareness should then apply to all audio magazines.

I agree.

And regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely how
I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 12:29 PM

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om

> I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at
> other magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of
> course.

> Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every
> piece of audio equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation
> price, which tends to be the price the dealer pays.

IME, this is pretty typical.

>This is not
> "corrupt," as the offensive thread title states, and must be put
> against the need for reviewers to have more than one reference
> available.

The corruption issue was yet another troll that was first recently
introduced here by the following post:

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message

> No, just disgusted that you are corrupt and try to mingle with us.
> You are CORRUPT!!! EVIL!!! Get it?

> Howard, get the hell outta here. You're a moral degenerate.

It was quickly supported by Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end manufactuers.

Intersting how receiving *accomodations* is OK once John Atkinson *approves*
it...

IOW, just the usual RAO harassement and hypocrisy from the usual list of RAO
mental midgets.

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 01:30 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >
> >>
> >> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
> >> Mercedes collection?
> >>
> >
> > You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
> > gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
>
> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures noted.
>
>

How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 01:32 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "tor b" > wrote in message
> om
> > dave weil > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >>> m
> >>>
> >>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
> >>
> >> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
> >
> > and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)
>
> Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation ceremony,
> right?
>
>

Remember the last time you ate meatloaf at the diner?

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 01:34 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "tor b" > wrote in message
> om
> > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
> > t>...
> >> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >> m...
> >>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >>
> >> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
> >
> >
> > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>
> Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting any.
>
>

A definite case of equalizer envy.

Wylie Williams

September 16th 04, 02:29 PM

"tor b" <wrote
>anyone think he pays retail? ;-)

Of course he doesn't. But that in itself isn't corruption, as anyone in the
business gets "accomodation" pricing. Even though I am only a very small AV
dealer with no influence on anyone I have been allowed to purchase my
components at dealer cost or less for all the brands I sell, and usually
even for brands I do not sell.

Is that corrupt? Is anyone corrupt when they pay less than retail?

If everybody gives reviewers deals (and I'm sure they all do) it all evens
out. Maybe if they give reviewers extended loans there might be a problem,
but on the other hand why would a reviewer want a product on extended loan
if he didn't want to listen to it?

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store
Saint Louis, Missouri

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:02 PM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
>>>> Mercedes collection?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
>>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
>>
>> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
>> noted.

> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?

Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international forum.

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 16th 04, 04:09 PM

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om...
> (Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message
> >...
>> Nousaine wrote:
>> >"Michael McKelvy" wrote:
>> >>"tor b" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> >>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>> >>
>> >>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>> >
>> >Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing' certainly
>> >doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in
>> >and tell use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the
>> >availability of products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65%
>> >of MSRP) for review samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an
>> >attraction. And the long-term loans are an even better deal.
>>
>> Are you willing to divulge what the writers for Sound & Vision or
>> other magazines you write for are paid? For that matter, why should
>> any magazine editor or writer discuss their fees with the reading public?
>
> I agree, Dr. Richman. I don't think this is something that needs to be
> made public. Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has
> referred
> on r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.
>

Well, Nousaine knows he's a loser but he cannot quite quantify how MUCH of a
loser he is. The fact that he's less of a loser than Krueger doesn't mean
much.

>> >But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson
>> >personally pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term
>> >loans OR his employer pays for all the other products at accomodation
>> >pricing.
>>
>> Does that differ from the practice in effect at other audio magazines?
>
> I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at
> other
> magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of course.
> Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of
> audio
> equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to
> be
> the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
> title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
> than one reference available.
>

I wonder if the super exclusive and small outfits like Rockport and CTC
Builders, for example, have accomodation prices?

Howard Ferstler seems to be a good example of a reviewer whose equipment are
of such pedestrian quality that he has become everyone's audio joke. His
reviews are like judging Cabernets using his customary prune juice as
reference.

>> >In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but
>> >readers should be aware of what it might be.
>>
>> That same level of awareness should then apply to all audio magazines.
>
> I agree.
>

Few readers are dense enough to be ignorant of the practice.

> And regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
> collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely how
> I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>

Well, John...you know the answer. You are a winner in the world of audio.
You love it, you made it popular and you made it pay off. In the process you
have directly and indirectly created a lot of jobs, attracted capital to the
business - in other words, you've created something valuable and you got
compensated for it. That's the way our economy works and you are to be
applauded for your achievements.

This is in stark contrast to Krueger and Nousaine whose bitter rants on the
internet amount to ZERO economic, cultural or intellectual value. And our
economy has rewarded them accordingly. :-) What these audio losers have not
understood is that one needs a total package to succeed - brains,
personality and manners- to name a few.

Cheers,

Margaret

PS. Got your SLR yet? ;-)

> John Atkinson
> Editor, Stereophile

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:11 PM

"The Milkman" > wrote in message

> (Nousaine) wrote:
>
>> What's interesting about all this is that John Atkinson initiated
>> all this by making a reference to my Corvette infering that I was
>> somehow "disadvantaging" my music playback system by owning such a
>> vehicle.
>
> This is sooo 1999..
>
> Looking at the origins of this topic on google, it's clear that John
> Atkinson was pointing out Arny Krueger's hypocrisy in condemning him
> [and others] for spending considerable sums of money on audio
> equipment for pleasure, whilst simultaneously slapping you on the back
> for buying a luxury vehicle.
>
> *That* is why your Corvette was referred to.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6vlrv

Really?

Here's part of that post:

"From various things Mr. Krüger has said at various times, I must conclude
that it basically comes down to envy. Envy of other's success in the
businesses in which they work; envy of others' financial wherewithal
and willingness to spend money on things that he personally does not
value. And again that can be rendered down to a lack of respect for the
choices others make that do not align with Arny's own beliefs."

Atkinson obviously has my last 10 income tax returns sitting before him, so
he knows exactly what my financial wherewithal is. Of couorse he doesn't.
Atkinson's delusions of ominsicence therefore come to the forefront once
again.

"For example, Arny has praised Tom Nousaine's purchase of a Corvette as his
vehicle of choice.

I'm in favor of people making choices that provide them with tangible
benefits. as opposed to the purely illusory benefits of the kinds of snake
oil purchases that ragazines like Stereophile ofen glorify.

"That means that not only has Tom spent more on one rather
impractical luxury car (IMO) than I have on all three of my old Mercedeses,
I
have spent more purchasing audio components in the past 10 years, even
at industry accommodation prices, than Tom has on his car (assuming
he bought it new)."

So what's going on here, is Atkinson trying to glorify spending money for
the sake of spending money or what?

Now let's review Milkman's claim:

"Atkinson was pointing out Arny Krueger's hypocrisy in condemning him
[and others] for spending considerable sums of money on audio
equipment for pleasure"

I fact, I've never condemned Atkinson or anybody else for simply spending
considerable sums of money on audio equipment for pleasure. This would be
hypocritical given the $10,000's I've spent on audio equipment for my own
personal pleasure and the pleasure of my friends and guests.

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:15 PM

"The Milkman" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>>>>
>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
>>>> Mercedes collection?
>>>
>>> The mention of Mr Atkinson's Mercedes collection* was gratuitous and
>>> unnecessary. It is not the first time you have introduced the
>>> subject of JA's ownership of prestige vehicles, in this manner.
>>
>> And Atkinson's initial mention of his Mercedes collection wasn't
>> gratuitous?
>
> Not even remotely.
> http://tinyurl.com/3j2j9

Given that he had previously ignored a number of other people's mention of
the Mercedes brand, this mention remains gratuitous and excessive.

<snip remainder of equally irrelevant weirdness>

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:16 PM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>> om
>>> dave weil > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
>>>>
>>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>>>
>>> and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)
>>
>> Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation
>> ceremony, right?
>>
>>
>
> Remember the last time you ate meatloaf at the diner?

Good thing I don't eat meatloaf at the diner. Art's delusional belief in his
omnisicence dismissed.

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:17 PM

"The Milkman" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>> manufactuers.
>
> URL for that?

In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 04:20 PM

"Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote in message

> This is in stark contrast to Krueger and Nousaine whose bitter rants
> on the internet amount to ZERO economic, cultural or intellectual
> value. And our economy has rewarded them accordingly. :-) What these
> audio losers have not understood is that one needs a total package to
> succeed - brains, personality and manners- to name a few.

Here's a typical Busenhalter non-bitter post on RAO:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=P7Fma.75183%24vI3.2470565%40twister.au stin.rr.com

"Download the ABX comparator, and get free
access to "Arny's Legal Pre-teen Porno Drive" where all the files are more
than 3 years old <wink><wink> and therefore perfectly "legal" <wink><wink>."

Nuff said, right?

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 16th 04, 05:04 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om
>
>> I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at
>> other magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of
>> course.
>
>
>> Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every
>> piece of audio equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation
>> price, which tends to be the price the dealer pays.
>
> IME, this is pretty typical.
>

There you go again trying to elevate yourself to the same level with Mr.
Atkinson. The fact that you got $5 discount on your obsolete Soundblaster is
not at all relevant.

>
>>This is not
>> "corrupt," as the offensive thread title states, and must be put
>> against the need for reviewers to have more than one reference
>> available.
>
> The corruption issue was yet another troll that was first recently
> introduced here by the following post:
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
>
>> No, just disgusted that you are corrupt and try to mingle with us.
>> You are CORRUPT!!! EVIL!!! Get it?
>
>> Howard, get the hell outta here. You're a moral degenerate.
>
> It was quickly supported by Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
> manufactuers.
>
> Intersting how receiving *accomodations* is OK once John Atkinson
> *approves* it...
>
> IOW, just the usual RAO harassement and hypocrisy from the usual list of
> RAO mental midgets.

In other words, all the people with better audio systems than your piece of
garbage.

I love seeing you stew in your own bitter juices...

Suffer, baby, suffer!

Margaret

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 16th 04, 05:05 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "The Milkman" > wrote in message
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>>> manufactuers.
>>
>> URL for that?
>
> In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com
>

Krueger only works for me today.

Cheers,

Margaret

Nousaine

September 16th 04, 06:02 PM

(John Atkinson) wrote:

(Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message
>...
>> Nousaine wrote:
>> >"Michael McKelvy" wrote:
>> >>"tor b" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> >>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>> >>
>> >>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>> >
>> >Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing' certainly
>> >doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in
>> >and tell use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the
>> >availability of products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65%
>> >of MSRP) for review samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an
>> >attraction. And the long-term loans are an even better deal.
>>
>> Are you willing to divulge what the writers for Sound & Vision or
>> other magazines you write for are paid? For that matter, why should
>> any magazine editor or writer discuss their fees with the reading public?
>
>I agree, Dr. Richman. I don't think this is something that needs to be
>made public. Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has referred
>on r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.
>
>> >But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson
>> >personally pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term
>> >loans OR his employer pays for all the other products at accomodation
>> >pricing.
>>
>> Does that differ from the practice in effect at other audio magazines?
>
>I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at other
>magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of course.
>Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of audio
>equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to be
>the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
>title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
>than one reference available.
>
>> >In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but
>> >readers should be aware of what it might be.
>>
>> That same level of awareness should then apply to all audio magazines.
>
>I agree.
>
>And regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
>collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely how
>I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>
>John Atkinson
>Editor, Stereophile

How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business; but you
once implied that my purchase of a Corvette was less responsible because you,
Mr Atkinson, chose to spend your income on audio. I'd think that road should
run both ways.

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 16th 04, 06:20 PM

"Nousaine" > wrote in message
...
> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>
>
>
(Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message
>...
>>> Nousaine wrote:
>>> >"Michael McKelvy" wrote:
>>> >>"tor b" > wrote in message
>>> m...
>>> >>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>> >>
>>> >>Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>> >
>>> >Actually that's one of the 'draws' of the trade. The 'writing'
>>> >certainly
>>> >doesn't pay that well ....I'm hoping that Mr Atkinson will wil drop in
>>> >and tell use exactly what the Stereophile "writers" are paid....but the
>>> >availability of products at an industry accomodation price (roughly 65%
>>> >of MSRP) for review samples (read that as "used" pieces) is an
>>> >attraction. And the long-term loans are an even better deal.
>>>
>>> Are you willing to divulge what the writers for Sound & Vision or
>>> other magazines you write for are paid? For that matter, why should
>>> any magazine editor or writer discuss their fees with the reading
>>> public?
>>
>>I agree, Dr. Richman. I don't think this is something that needs to be
>>made public. Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has
>>referred
>>on r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.
>>
>>> >But in regard to the initial question I'm guessing that Mr Atkinson
>>> >personally pays for very little. Either he gets products for long-term
>>> >loans OR his employer pays for all the other products at accomodation
>>> >pricing.
>>>
>>> Does that differ from the practice in effect at other audio magazines?
>>
>>I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at
>>other
>>magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of course.
>>Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of
>>audio
>>equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to
>>be
>>the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
>>title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
>>than one reference available.
>>
>>> >In my opinion there's nothing especially wrong with the practice but
>>> >readers should be aware of what it might be.
>>>
>>> That same level of awareness should then apply to all audio magazines.
>>
>>I agree.
>>
>>And regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
>>collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely how
>>I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>>
>>John Atkinson
>>Editor, Stereophile
>
> How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business; but
> you
> once implied that my purchase of a Corvette

Quit bragging, Nousaine. Even girls know that a Corvette will literally fall
apart if driven anywhere near its top speed for an extended period of time.
But then again, you have Krueger to follow behind you in his rusted up
minivan to pick up the parts that fall off. Ha hah! It only excels in
burnouts between traffic lights. The Corvette is simply a premature
ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.

Cheers,

Margaret

MINe 109

September 16th 04, 06:38 PM

In article >,
"Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:

> The Corvette is simply a premature
> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.

LOL!

Lionel

September 16th 04, 06:40 PM

John Atkinson wrote:

> I agree, Dr. Richman.

I don't understand anything about your debate but I note that you are an
habile diplomate. :-)

John Atkinson

September 16th 04, 06:51 PM

(John Atkinson) wrote in message
>...
> Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has referred on
> r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.

Brainfade on my part. Tom last raised the issue on rec.audio.high-end.
See, for example, message >.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 08:25 PM

"MINe 109" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
>
>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
>
> LOL!

No envy present in these posts, none at all.

;-)

Sander deWaal

September 16th 04, 08:28 PM

"Arny Krueger" > said:

>>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.

>> LOL!

>No envy present in these posts, none at all.

Drive a Citroen and no one will envy you.

>;-)

Ack!

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Arny Krueger

September 16th 04, 08:58 PM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>>>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>>>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
>
>>> LOL!
>
>> No envy present in these posts, none at all.
>
> Drive a Citroen and no one will envy you.
>
>> ;-)
>
> Ack!

I don't know about that. Citroen has made some nice cars over the years.

dave weil

September 16th 04, 09:27 PM

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:25:13 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"MINe 109" > wrote in message

>> In article >,
>> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
>>
>>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
>>
>> LOL!
>
>No envy present in these posts, none at all.

Quite right.

MINe 109

September 16th 04, 09:33 PM

In article >,
dave weil > wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:25:13 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> >"MINe 109" > wrote in message
>
> >> In article >,
> >> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Corvette is simply a premature
> >>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
> >>
> >> LOL!
> >
> >No envy present in these posts, none at all.
>
> Quite right.

Shhhh! Almost too subtle!

I heard two cuts from the new EC on the radio today. Something about
"judgment" and a bluesy thing with some heavy guitar that reminded me
how rarely I hear screaming guitar leads from our man.

Have you heard it yet? I'm hoping I have time Sunday to catch the show,
but it could be crowds and 100 degrees.

Stephen

dave weil

September 16th 04, 10:11 PM

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:33:43 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

>In article >,
> dave weil > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:25:13 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"MINe 109" > wrote in message
>>
>> >> In article >,
>> >> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>> >>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
>> >>
>> >> LOL!
>> >
>> >No envy present in these posts, none at all.
>>
>> Quite right.
>
>Shhhh! Almost too subtle!
>
>I heard two cuts from the new EC on the radio today. Something about
>"judgment" and a bluesy thing with some heavy guitar that reminded me
>how rarely I hear screaming guitar leads from our man.

Yes, that's the song that he wrote that Solomon Burke covered
recently. It's on the new album, The Delivery Man (see below). It's
called, oddly enough...The Judgement (Brit spelling).

>Have you heard it yet? I'm hoping I have time Sunday to catch the show,
>but it could be crowds and 100 degrees.

You NEED to go. I've heard it of course. The new album comes out
Tuesday. Plus, I saw the rehearsal gigs in Memphis and Oxford. He
plays tomorrow night at the club that I saw him in Memphis, and
they're going to film it for a DVD. I think he's doing a filming of
ACL there, right?

PS, the new material is generally better live than on album, but the
album isn't shabby at all...just oddly paced. You get Emmylou Harris
and Lucinda Williams on the album though...

Marc Phillips

September 16th 04, 11:09 PM

Arny said:

>"tor b" > wrote in message
om
>> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>> t>...
>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> m...
>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>
>>> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>
>>
>> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>
>Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting any.

All right, Arny! Sounds like Susan let you jack off while watching her get
ready for work again!

Boon

Marc Phillips

September 16th 04, 11:11 PM

Arny said:

>"The Milkman" > wrote in message

>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>
>>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>>> manufactuers.
>>
>> URL for that?
>
>In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com

In other words, it's a lie.

Boon

MINe 109

September 16th 04, 11:25 PM

In article >,
dave weil > wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:33:43 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > dave weil > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:25:13 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"MINe 109" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> >> In article >,
> >> >> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> The Corvette is simply a premature
> >> >>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
> >> >>
> >> >> LOL!
> >> >
> >> >No envy present in these posts, none at all.
> >>
> >> Quite right.
> >
> >Shhhh! Almost too subtle!
> >
> >I heard two cuts from the new EC on the radio today. Something about
> >"judgment" and a bluesy thing with some heavy guitar that reminded me
> >how rarely I hear screaming guitar leads from our man.
>
> Yes, that's the song that he wrote that Solomon Burke covered
> recently. It's on the new album, The Delivery Man (see below). It's
> called, oddly enough...The Judgement (Brit spelling).

I liked Elvis blues lyrics.

> >Have you heard it yet? I'm hoping I have time Sunday to catch the show,
> >but it could be crowds and 100 degrees.
>
> You NEED to go. I've heard it of course. The new album comes out
> Tuesday. Plus, I saw the rehearsal gigs in Memphis and Oxford. He
> plays tomorrow night at the club that I saw him in Memphis, and
> they're going to film it for a DVD. I think he's doing a filming of
> ACL there, right?

Yes, he is. The tickets were gone before I heard about it! And Sheryl
Crow is taping today at the ACL fest stage (not that she's equally
important). I'll be at the opera.

Dang. Looks like I'll have to commit by midnight. Looks like a one-hour
set. Well, there are a couple more bands playing, too.

> PS, the new material is generally better live than on album, but the
> album isn't shabby at all...just oddly paced. You get Emmylou Harris
> and Lucinda Williams on the album though...

I heard tell of a duet.

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 11:37 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for his
> >>>> Mercedes collection?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
> >>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
> >>
> >> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
> >> noted.
>
> > How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
>
> Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international forum.
>
>

I forgot. You wipe your ass with $100 checks.

Sander deWaal

September 16th 04, 11:38 PM

"Arny Krueger" > said:

>>> No envy present in these posts, none at all.

>> Drive a Citroen and no one will envy you.

>I don't know about that. Citroen has made some nice cars over the years.

Overhere, Citroens are cheap as dirt.
Regarded as Yugos where you live.
Citroens also never get stolen: it takes too long for the car to rise
up before one can drive away. Very convenient!

Though the DS and CX are steadily rising in value ;-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 11:44 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...

> Here's part of that post:
>

>
> Atkinson obviously has my last 10 income tax returns sitting before him,
so
> he knows exactly what my financial wherewithal is.

And therefore, all of us Atkinson sockpuppets have the same info.

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 11:45 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >> om
> >>> dave weil > wrote in message
> >>> >...
> >>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >>>>> m
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes collection.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
> >>>
> >>> and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)
> >>
> >> Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation
> >> ceremony, right?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Remember the last time you ate meatloaf at the diner?
>
> Good thing I don't eat meatloaf at the diner. Art's delusional belief in
his
> omnisicence dismissed.
>
>

Well, watch out for the sliced banana in your cornflakes.

Clyde Slick

September 16th 04, 11:46 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "The Milkman" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
> >> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
> >> manufactuers.
> >
> > URL for that?
>
> In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com
>
>

oh, Google, the place that lies to you

John Atkinson

September 17th 04, 12:14 AM

(Nousaine) wrote in message
>...
> (John Atkinson) wrote:
> >regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
> >collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely
> >how I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>
> How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business;

Thank you for acknowledging something that should be self-evident. So why
then did you and others bring it up in this thread?

> but you once implied that my purchase of a Corvette was less responsible
> because you, Mr Atkinson, chose to spend your income on audio.

With respect, I said nothing like that. I raised the fact that I have
spent more on my audio system (even at accommodation prices) than you did
on your car as being a good example of how choice and preference works.
What is appropriate for you is not appropriate for me, and vice versa,
but neither choice is "better" or "worse" in absolute terms. Again, I
neither said nor implied _anything_ about your supposed lack of
responsibility. That, I can only assume, is your own projection.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 01:32 AM

"MINe 109" > wrote in message
...
> I heard two cuts from the new EC on the radio today. Something about
> "judgment" and a bluesy thing with some heavy guitar that reminded me
> how rarely I hear screaming guitar leads from our man.
>
> Have you heard it yet? I'm hoping I have time Sunday to catch the show,
> but it could be crowds and 100 degrees.
>

Please, be sure to get there early and catch the opening act,
Robert Randolph and the Family Band.

I hear he's a hell of a showman. I th9inkso, at least
from his vids and live album. It's foot stompin, uplifting
gospel based rock and r&b, led by Robert Randolph,
a smokin' pedal slide wiz.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:49 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for
>>>>>> his Mercedes collection?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
>>>>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
>>>>
>>>> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
>>>> noted.
>>
>>> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
>>
>> Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international
>> forum.

> I forgot. You wipe your ass with $100 checks.

Typical error-filled Sackman post. You're low by a factor of 10.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:51 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> Here's part of that post:
>>
>
>>
>> Atkinson obviously has my last 10 income tax returns sitting before
>> him, so he knows exactly what my financial wherewithal is.Of course he
>> doesn't.
>> Atkinson's delusions of ominsicence therefore come to the forefront once
>> again.

>
> And therefore, all of us Atkinson sockpuppets have the same info.

Wrong, you have the same delusions. A sockpuppet can't be smarter or saner
than its perp.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:52 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>> om
>>>>> dave weil > wrote in message
>>>>> >...
>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes
>>>>>>> collection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
>>>>>
>>>>> and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation
>>>> ceremony, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Remember the last time you ate meatloaf at the diner?
>>
>> Good thing I don't eat meatloaf at the diner. Art's delusional
>> belief in his omnisicence dismissed.
>>
>>
>
> Well, watch out for the sliced banana in your cornflakes.

The kind of *banana* you're talking about Art, is red in the middle. I can
tell the difference between your kind of fruit and the genuine fruit.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:53 AM

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

> Arny said:
>
>> "The Milkman" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>>>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>>>> manufactuers.
>>>
>>> URL for that?
>>
>> In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com
>
> In other words, it's a lie.

Thanks Phillips for admitting that all statements you've made, supported by
that particular citation, are lies.

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 01:54 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for
> >>>>>> his Mercedes collection?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
> >>>>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
> >>>> noted.
> >>
> >>> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
> >>
> >> Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international
> >> forum.
>
> > I forgot. You wipe your ass with $100 checks.
>
> Typical error-filled Sackman post. You're low by a factor of 10.
>
>

No wonder your underwear is stained.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:54 AM

"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

> Arny said:
>
>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>> om
>>> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>>> t>...
>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>> m...
>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>>
>>>
>>> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>>
>> Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting
>> any.
>
> All right, Arny! Sounds like Susan let you jack off while watching
> her get ready for work again!

I could never even think of posting such a thing, Phillips. This is from
your autobiography, no?

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 01:55 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> >> Here's part of that post:
> >>
> >
> >>
> >> Atkinson obviously has my last 10 income tax returns sitting before
> >> him, so he knows exactly what my financial wherewithal is.Of course he
> >> doesn't.
> >> Atkinson's delusions of ominsicence therefore come to the forefront
once
> >> again.
>
> >
> > And therefore, all of us Atkinson sockpuppets have the same info.
>
> Wrong, you have the same delusions. A sockpuppet can't be smarter or saner
> than its perp.
>

I said have the SAME info, dumbass.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:55 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for
>>>>>>>> his Mercedes collection?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
>>>>>>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
>>>>>> noted.
>>>>
>>>>> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
>>>>
>>>> Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international
>>>> forum.
>>
>>> I forgot. You wipe your ass with $100 checks.
>>
>> Typical error-filled Sackman post. You're low by a factor of 10.
>>
>>
>
> No wonder your underwear is stained.

Delusions of omnisicence noted, again. Gosh Art, can't you develop some new
delusions?

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 01:57 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >>>> om
> >>>>> dave weil > wrote in message
> >>>>> >...
> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>> m
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sure he pays retail for gasoline for his Mercedes
> >>>>>>> collection.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ahhhh, gotta love envy...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and, in your case, dave, it's likely to be penis envy. ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Removal of that member is part of the table waitstaff initiation
> >>>> ceremony, right?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Remember the last time you ate meatloaf at the diner?
> >>
> >> Good thing I don't eat meatloaf at the diner. Art's delusional
> >> belief in his omnisicence dismissed.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Well, watch out for the sliced banana in your cornflakes.
>
> The kind of *banana* you're talking about Art, is red in the middle. I can
> tell the difference between your kind of fruit and the genuine fruit.
>
>

Still, you best keep your eye on the bowl when downing your flakes.

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 01:59 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:08:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
> >>>>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why would I envy the fact that he pays retail for gasoline for
> >>>>>>>> his Mercedes collection?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are envious becasuse you pay gouged prices for
> >>>>>>> gasoline for your Mercedes collection.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ignorance of Manhattan versus Detroit gasolene pricing structures
> >>>>>> noted.
> >>>>
> >>>>> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
> >>>>
> >>>> Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international
> >>>> forum.
> >>
> >>> I forgot. You wipe your ass with $100 checks.
> >>
> >> Typical error-filled Sackman post. You're low by a factor of 10.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > No wonder your underwear is stained.
>
> Delusions of omnisicence noted, again. Gosh Art, can't you develop some
new
> delusions?
>
>

Here's one:
You are curable.

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 17th 04, 02:03 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Marc Phillips" > wrote in message
>
>> Arny said:
>>
>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> om
>>>> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>>>> t>...
>>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>>> m...
>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>>>
>>> Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting
>>> any.
>>
>> All right, Arny! Sounds like Susan let you jack off while watching
>> her get ready for work again!
>
> I could never even think of posting such a thing, Phillips.

Apparently Susan is no schoolboy.

Cheers,

Margaret

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 17th 04, 02:04 AM

Nousaine

September 17th 04, 02:58 AM

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

>
>"MINe 109" > wrote in message

>> In article >,
>> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
>>
>>> The Corvette is simply a premature
>>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
>>
>> LOL!
>
>No envy present in these posts, none at all.
>
>;-)

What's interesting is that most anti-corvette posters do not recognize the
qualities of the vehicle. It's a car for $45k where measured performance beats
anything less than 2-3 times that amount (I bought my 1st Corvette a '94, 6-spd
for $29,000) which costs less than practically any "luxury" vehicle.

Not only will the car top out at 170 mph (my 94,95 and 2001 models; as per Car
& Driver and I've driven the '95 @ 150+) but it will also return 29.6 mpg on a
road trip (overall mileage on a 1600 trip from my house to Duluth MN for the
BayFront Blues Festival) so its an economy car as well.

Parts falling off? In over 200k miles on these 3 cars. I've had exactly one
fuel pump fail. ONE. All three of these cars were driven year-round in
rust-belt conditions. It is true that in Dec 2003 I did acquire an SUV as well,
but until that time the Corvette's were the only vehicle in my household.

Let's talk about routine maintanence. The Corvette needs Mobile One to keep the
warranty in effect BUT the oil change interval on my 2001 Coupe is 15,000
miles. So the ONLY extra charge for owning/driving a Corvette is spending $800
to replace tires.

There's no extra cost for parts or parts falling off. Indeed I just checked
the brake pad linings on my 2001 and there's 30% of the pad life left after
60,000 miles. Sure most of those miles were highway; but so what.

Rotors? I've owned 3 Corvettes and not one ever needed new rotors, even the
1995 with 120,000 miles on the odometer.

I've owned (Chevy, Ford, Volvo, Saab, Buick, Honda, Acura) and driven several
dozens of vehicles and my experience is that Corvettes are the most reliable
cars I've ever driven or owned.

Nousaine

September 17th 04, 03:18 AM

(John Atkinson) wrote:

(Nousaine) wrote in message
>...
>> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>> >regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
>> >collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely
>> >how I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>>
>> How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business;
>
>Thank you for acknowledging something that should be self-evident. So why
>then did you and others bring it up in this thread?

I didn't bring it up. But why did you make it an issue in a prior thread?

>> but you once implied that my purchase of a Corvette was less responsible
>> because you, Mr Atkinson, chose to spend your income on audio.
>
>With respect, I said nothing like that. I raised the fact that I have
>spent more on my audio system (even at accommodation prices) than you did
>on your car as being a good example of how choice and preference works.

But you didn't ask or refer about how much money I may have spent on my audio
system, did you?

So your strawman reference was irrelevant; was it not?

>What is appropriate for you is not appropriate for me, and vice versa,
>but neither choice is "better" or "worse" in absolute terms. Again, I
>neither said nor implied _anything_ about your supposed lack of
>responsibility. That, I can only assume, is your own projection.

Of course; that's how it looked to me. But, even so why did you even bother to
make any comment one way or another IF you had no implication implied?

As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were somehow "better"
than me because you has spent "more" money on audio than I had on a particular
car.

All this without regard on how much money I may have spent on audio products;
as IF that was a legitimate qualifier.

>John Atkinson
>Editor, Stereophile

GregP

September 17th 04, 03:23 AM

On 16 Sep 2004 04:16:14 -0700, (John
Atkinson) wrote:

>Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of audio
>equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to be
>the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
>title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
>than one reference available.

Has anyone become wealthy (not sure I know what that means
anymore anyway...) from "high end" audio ?

IMO the accommodation price would be corrupting if the reviewer
couldn't count on or make use of it until the manufacturer knew the
results of the review.

I've read a lot of monitor speaker reviews on various web sites over
the past two weeks, including Stereophile. I found some of John A's
language very interesting at times. The next-to-last sentence of
the B&W 705 review was a classic: "You'd have to spend a lot more
to get significantly more quality. So what does that say about the
705 ? :-) (yes, he also said that he liked them). And then
there are the personal- interest interludes to liven up the review,
the "break in" tweak, etc. BUT: overall, I felt that the Stereophile
reviews typically provided more real information than any others
and, perhaps ironically for some, gave quite a bit of insight into
measured testing.

MINe 109

September 17th 04, 05:15 AM

In article >,
"Clyde Slick" > wrote:

> "MINe 109" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I heard two cuts from the new EC on the radio today. Something about
> > "judgment" and a bluesy thing with some heavy guitar that reminded me
> > how rarely I hear screaming guitar leads from our man.
> >
> > Have you heard it yet? I'm hoping I have time Sunday to catch the show,
> > but it could be crowds and 100 degrees.
> >
>
>
> Please, be sure to get there early and catch the opening act,
> Robert Randolph and the Family Band.
>
> I hear he's a hell of a showman. I th9inkso, at least
> from his vids and live album. It's foot stompin, uplifting
> gospel based rock and r&b, led by Robert Randolph,
> a smokin' pedal slide wiz.
>
>

Yes, the ACL show was hot! No chance of getting there that early,
unfortunately.

Stephen

Marc Phillips

September 17th 04, 06:19 AM

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>> Arny said:
>>
>>> "The Milkman" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>>>>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>>>>> manufactuers.
>>>>
>>>> URL for that?
>>>
>>> In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com
>>
>> In other words, it's a lie.
>
>Thanks Phillips for admitting that all statements you've made, supported by
>that particular citation, are lies.

Thanks Krueger for admitting that when you're asked to be accountable for what
you say, you head like a coward for the nearest IKYABWAI.

Maybe a bowl of spotted dick will make you feel better.

Boon

Marc Phillips

September 17th 04, 06:20 AM

Arny said:

>"Marc Phillips" > wrote in message

>> Arny said:
>>
>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> om
>>>> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>>>> t>...
>>>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>>>> m...
>>>>>> Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>>>
>>> Becuase the people who are doing the beating aren't ummm, getting
>>> any.
>>
>> All right, Arny! Sounds like Susan let you jack off while watching
>> her get ready for work again!
>
>I could never even think of posting such a thing, Phillips. This is from
>your autobiography, no?

Are you saying that Susan lets ME jack off while watching her get ready for
work? If you say so.

Boon

paul packer

September 17th 04, 07:48 AM

>> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
>
>Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international forum.
>

Of course. Only very important subjects are discussed on RAO.

Robert Morein

September 17th 04, 08:04 AM

"paul packer" > wrote in message
...
> >> How much does it cost to fill up each of your Mercedes?
> >
> >Not nearly enough to be worth talking about on an international forum.
> >
>
>
> Of course. Only very important subjects are discussed on RAO.

The dry capacity of my '69 is 82 liters, or 21.64 gallons, which works out
to $47.61 for Philadelphia pump prices.
Tank capacities have not changed much, so Atkinson's "dilemma" is probably
the same.
However, in practice, one never drains the tank dry :).

John Atkinson

September 17th 04, 12:33 PM

(Nousaine) wrote in message >...
> (John Atkinson) wrote:
> (Nousaine) wrote in message
> >...
> >> (John Atkinson) wrote:
> >> >regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
> >> >collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely
> >> >how I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
> >>
> >> How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business;
> >
> >Thank you for acknowledging something that should be self-evident. So
> >why then did you and others bring it up in this thread?
>
> I didn't bring it up. But why did you make it an issue in a prior thread?
>
> >> but you once implied that my purchase of a Corvette was less
> >>responsible because you, Mr Atkinson, chose to spend your income on
> >>audio.
> >
> >With respect, I said nothing like that. I raised the fact that I have
> >spent more on my audio system (even at accommodation prices) than you
> >did on your car as being a good example of how choice and preference
> >works.
>
> But you didn't ask or refer about how much money I may have spent on my
> audio system, did you?

No. I don't think it my business, any more than how much I have spent on
audio equipment or how much I paid for my cars, or how much Stereophile
pays its writers (all questions you have asked of me on the newsgroups)
are your concern.

> So your strawman reference was irrelevant; was it not?

A) it wasn't a "strawman." B) It wasn't irrelevant. Here are the comments
I made in 1999 concerning this subject and to which you were referring.
The context was your previously expressing approval of your Corvette,
just as you have done in this thread (with which I do not have a problem)
and the subject of personal preference illustrated by our personal choices:

>>As I write this, I am listening to the Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello CD,
>>played on a Levinson No.31.5/30.5 CD player, amplification a Meridian
>>518 digital volume control and a pair of Levinson No.33H monoblocks,
>>driving B&W Silver Signature loudspeakers, all of which I have forked over
>>my hard-earned money for. The result is musical ecstasy and that to me is
>>a fair return for the cash outlay. I am sure that as Tom Nousaine drives
>>his Corvette over some demanding roads, he experiences similar joy.
>>
>>whereas Tom Nousaine's choice is to spend a lot of money on a car, my
>>choice was to spend that money on my audio system. Both choices are
>>equally valid in that they are subjective in the truest sense of the word.

Seems clear enough to me.

>As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were somehow
>"better" than me because you has spent "more" money on audio than I had
>on a particular car.

As I wrote, that must be a projection on your part because my literal
words, quoted above, say no such thing. In fact, I endorse you exercising
your choice.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:47 PM

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om
> (Nousaine) wrote in message
> >...
>> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>>> (Nousaine) wrote in message

>>> whereas Tom Nousaine's choice is to spend a lot of money on a car,
>>> my choice was to spend that money on my audio system. Both choices
>>> are equally valid in that they are subjective in the truest sense
>>> of the word.

Delusions of omniscience noted.

> Seems clear enough to me.

All of the delusional people I've met seem to talk that way. Everything is
very clear to them... ;-)

>> As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were
>> somehow "better" than me because you has spent "more" money on audio
>> than I had on a particular car.
>
> As I wrote, that must be a projection on your part because my literal
> words, quoted above, say no such thing. In fact, I endorse you
> exercising your choice.

Atkinson has no response.

Nousaine is hereby awarded two ears and a tail from our favorite source of
*bull*.

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 01:56 PM

"GregP" > wrote in message

> On 16 Sep 2004 04:16:14 -0700, (John
> Atkinson) wrote:
>
>> Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece
>> of audio equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price,
>> which tends to be the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt,"
>> as the offensive thread title states, and must be put against the
>> need for reviewers to have more than one reference available.
>
> Has anyone become wealthy (not sure I know what that means
> anymore anyway...) from "high end" audio ?

I see your point. Fortunes have clearly been lost on high end audio.

> IMO the accommodation price would be corrupting if the reviewer
> couldn't count on or make use of it until the manufacturer knew the
> results of the review.

Few if any high end reviewers could afford to just run right out and just
buy review items to have something to write about. Therefore, the biggest
*payoff* to them is simply being loaned the equipment to play with.

> I've read a lot of monitor speaker reviews on various web sites over
> the past two weeks, including Stereophile. I found some of John A's
> language very interesting at times. The next-to-last sentence of
> the B&W 705 review was a classic: "You'd have to spend a lot more
> to get significantly more quality. So what does that say about the
> 705 ? :-) (yes, he also said that he liked them). And then
> there are the personal- interest interludes to liven up the review,
> the "break in" tweak, etc. BUT: overall, I felt that the Stereophile
> reviews typically provided more real information than any others
> and, perhaps ironically for some, gave quite a bit of insight into
> measured testing.

Agreed. If you can just step over all of the piles of delusional radical
subjectivist reviewer *turds* that are proudly displayed within its pages,
Stereophile could be a pretty fair ragazine.

Regrettably Atkinson's bopne-headed technical errors go uncorrected for
years, even if they don't predominate. Atkinson's habitual weirdness have
given other more technically-adept and technically-correct reviewers some
good technical feature points, such as the Ken Pohlman digital audio
equipment reviews that proudly proclaim the use of only dithered test
signals.

Note that Atkinson and his subservient minions like Zelniker still think
they know more about digital audio testing than all the best minds in the
AES.

Robert Morein

September 17th 04, 02:02 PM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > said:
>
> >The dry capacity of my '69 is 82 liters, or 21.64 gallons, which works
out
> >to $47.61 for Philadelphia pump prices.
> >Tank capacities have not changed much, so Atkinson's "dilemma" is
probably
> >the same.
> >However, in practice, one never drains the tank dry :).
>
> Jeezus guys, you don't know how lucky you are.
> We pay 1.30 euro per litre.
> 1 euro = 1.22 dollar.
>
> Count your blessings!
>
Holland as a vision of our future:

1. Under water
2. Out of gas
3. As a compensation, pot is widely available to all citizens

Robert Morein

September 17th 04, 02:15 PM

"Nousaine" > wrote in message
...
> "Arny Krueger" wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >"MINe 109" > wrote in message
>
> >> In article >,
> >> "Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt" > wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Corvette is simply a premature
> >>> ejeculation on wheels, just like its owners.
> >>
> >> LOL!
> >
> >No envy present in these posts, none at all.
> >
> >;-)
>
> What's interesting is that most anti-corvette posters do not recognize the
> qualities of the vehicle. It's a car for $45k where measured performance
beats
> anything less than 2-3 times that amount (I bought my 1st Corvette a '94,
6-spd
> for $29,000) which costs less than practically any "luxury" vehicle.
>
Interesting. Perhaps the reputation of the car is a leftover of previous
designs.
In the old days, the fiberglass body of the 'Vette was famous for loosening
up.
The engine was a big pushrod design that didn't have the longevity of a
comparable OHC import engine.
The noise level was high, and the ride was rough.
It was a pretty car, and it performed well, but it demanded sacrifices from
the owner.
OTOH, it was still far more maintainable than the Ferraris of the time.

But it's still not a very functional car, except in the limited of single
person transportation with minimal luggage.
It's a cop magnet, which is why I very seldom see them driven fast on the
road.
I pass them all the time in my '92 Subaru, which attracts no attention from
anybody.

Sander deWaal

September 17th 04, 02:27 PM

"Robert Morein" > said:

>Holland as a vision of our future:

>1. Under water

You saw the movie?

>2. Out of gas

Not really, but it gets more expensive by the hour.
Biodiesel is the future.

>3. As a compensation, pot is widely available to all citizens

At least you won't notice the flooding when you're trippin'.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

dave weil

September 17th 04, 02:28 PM

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:47:13 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om
>> (Nousaine) wrote in message
>> >...
>>> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>>>> (Nousaine) wrote in message
>
>
>>>> whereas Tom Nousaine's choice is to spend a lot of money on a car,
>>>> my choice was to spend that money on my audio system. Both choices
>>>> are equally valid in that they are subjective in the truest sense
>>>> of the word.
>
>Delusions of omniscience noted.
>
>> Seems clear enough to me.
>
>All of the delusional people I've met seem to talk that way. Everything is
>very clear to them... ;-)
>
>>> As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were
>>> somehow "better" than me because you has spent "more" money on audio
>>> than I had on a particular car.
>>
>> As I wrote, that must be a projection on your part because my literal
>> words, quoted above, say no such thing. In fact, I endorse you
>> exercising your choice.
>
>Atkinson has no response.

Why would he have a response to his own words?
>
>Nousaine is hereby awarded two ears and a tail from our favorite source of
>*bull*.
>
Delusions of omniscience and omnipotence noted.

Poor Arnold - he really has to fight hard to be "controversial" these
days. Borrrrring.

paul packer

September 17th 04, 03:01 PM

>I pass them all the time in my '92 Subaru, which attracts no attention from
>anybody.

That's understandable. :-)

Robert Morein

September 17th 04, 06:31 PM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > said:
>
> >Holland as a vision of our future:
>
> >1. Under water
>
> You saw the movie?
>
> >2. Out of gas
>
> Not really, but it gets more expensive by the hour.
> Biodiesel is the future.
>
When it came time to replace the "beater", I wanted a Golf diesel.
Unfortunately, all the used specimens had rusted away in our market, and new
diesels were too expensive.
The low price of gas here forced me towards an obsolete "luxury car."

A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died from
rust.
I felt I was doing the right thing.

Sander deWaal

September 17th 04, 06:40 PM

"Robert Morein" > said:

>A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died from
>rust.
>I felt I was doing the right thing.

A VW that's rusting away?
You must live at the seaside then.
Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
VWs.

Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 09:42 PM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Sander deWaal said:
>
> > Jeezus guys, you don't know how lucky you are.
> > We pay 1.30 euro per litre.
> > 1 euro = 1.22 dollar.
> >
> > Count your blessings!
>
> Kerry should run on a platform of bicycle equality for all Americans.
>

Some bicycles are more equal than others.

Howard Ferstler

September 17th 04, 09:55 PM

John Atkinson wrote:

> Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of audio
> equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to be
> the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
> title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
> than one reference available.

I have to agree with this statement. It also applies to me.
I see nothing wrong at all with a reviewer getting an
accommodation price for equipment. Heck, dealers and
salesmen often get the same kind of bargains.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 17th 04, 10:00 PM

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt wrote:

> Well, Nousaine knows he's a loser but he cannot quite quantify how MUCH of a
> loser he is.

Well, he is a major writer for Sound & Vision. You, on the
other hand, are an RAO big mouth who posts under an assumed
name. At least Nousaine is not afraid to use his real name.

> Howard Ferstler seems to be a good example of a reviewer whose equipment are
> of such pedestrian quality that he has become everyone's audio joke.

Only to RAO big mouths like you. Please remember that I have
also reviewed some pretty upscale hardware and my own stuff
has held its own with that stuff - or bested it.

> Well, John...you know the answer. You are a winner in the world of audio.
> You love it, you made it popular and you made it pay off.

Does this mean that he is a bigger, more respected wheel in
the business than Nousaine? (Here, I mean respected by the
engineering community and not by Stereophile groupies.) Give
me a break.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 17th 04, 10:03 PM

tor b wrote:
>
> "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message t>...
> > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)

> > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
> Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?

It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 17th 04, 10:05 PM

Robert Morein wrote:
>
> "tor b" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
> t>...
> > > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > > m...
> > > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)

> > > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?

> > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?

> Because he brags about it :).

Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
is their party pooper.

Accommodation prices are common knowledge in the audio
community. Heck, audio store owners (and often the clerks
who work there) get the same breaks.

Howard Ferstler

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 10:07 PM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message

> Does this mean that (Busenhalter) is a bigger, more respected wheel in
> the business than Nousaine?

Absolutely, at least in his own mind.

Bruce J. Richman

September 17th 04, 10:07 PM

Howard Ferstler wrote:

>Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt wrote:
>
>> Well, Nousaine knows he's a loser but he cannot quite quantify how MUCH of
>a
>> loser he is.
>
>Well, he is a major writer for Sound & Vision. You, on the
>other hand, are an RAO big mouth who posts under an assumed
>name. At least Nousaine is not afraid to use his real name.
>

As Reagan used to say, "there you go again". Making assertions about others
that may well be false and, at the least, are not supported by any factual
evidence. How do you know whether the poster to whom you're responding is
using an alias or not? If you have evidence supporting your presumptuous
claim, present it. Otherwise, we can safely assume that you're just engaging
in one of your typical smear campaigns against a poster with whom you disagree.

>> Howard Ferstler seems to be a good example of a reviewer whose equipment
>are
>> of such pedestrian quality that he has become everyone's audio joke.
>
>Only to RAO big mouths like you. Please remember that I have
>also reviewed some pretty upscale hardware and my own stuff
>has held its own with that stuff - or bested it.
>
>> Well, John...you know the answer. You are a winner in the world of audio.
>> You love it, you made it popular and you made it pay off.
>
>Does this mean that he is a bigger, more respected wheel in
>the business than Nousaine? (Here, I mean respected by the
>engineering community and not by Stereophile groupies.) Give
>me a break.
>
>Howard Ferstler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bruce J. Richman

Arny Krueger

September 17th 04, 10:10 PM

"Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message

> How do you know whether the poster to whom
> you're responding is using an alias or not?

Indeed, Busenhalter is a very common name in Transylvania.

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 10:14 PM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...

>
> It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
> Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.
>
> Howard Ferstler

You are a hoplelessly ignorant Professional Audio Clown.
September dues paid for, my membership status is currently up to date.

Howard Ferstler

September 17th 04, 10:15 PM

Clyde Slick wrote:
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> ...

> > It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
> > Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.

> You are a hoplelessly ignorant Professional Audio Clown.

One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
from nitwits like you.

Howard Ferstler

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 10:29 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message
>
>
> > How do you know whether the poster to whom
> > you're responding is using an alias or not?
>
> Indeed, Busenhalter is a very common name in Transylvania.
>
>

Busenhalter Transylvania:
zero Google hits

Krueger Transylvania
468 Google hits

The white pages for Romania indicates that there
are no Busenhalters listed in Cluj-Napoca, which is the
largest city in Transylvania. A further search indicated
that there are no lisitngs for Busenhalter in all of Romania.
I couldn't find any Krueger's in Romania, either.

Clyde Slick

September 17th 04, 10:31 PM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> Clyde Slick wrote:
> >
> > "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > > It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
> > > Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.
>
> > You are a hoplelessly ignorant Professional Audio Clown.
>
> One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
> from nitwits like you.
>

If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.

Sander deWaal

September 17th 04, 10:37 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>is their party pooper.

Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
"tweako-freako audio community"?
Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
for better ones, or trying out different CD players to find out which
one suits him best? Someone who builds his own DAC?
Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.

If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
regular posters AFAIK.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt

September 18th 04, 12:58 AM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> Margaret von Busenhalter-Butt wrote:
>
>> Well, Nousaine knows he's a loser but he cannot quite quantify how MUCH
>> of a
>> loser he is.
>
> Well, he is a major writer for Sound & Vision.

There are NO major writers associated with that rag. None whatsoever. Your
statement just shows that you were a major failure as a librarian as well.

> You, on the
> other hand, are an RAO big mouth who posts under an assumed
> name. At least Nousaine is not afraid to use his real name.
>

<Yawn>

>> Howard Ferstler seems to be a good example of a reviewer whose equipment
>> are
>> of such pedestrian quality that he has become everyone's audio joke.
>
> Only to RAO big mouths like you. Please remember that I have
> also reviewed some pretty upscale hardware and my own stuff
> has held its own with that stuff - or bested it.
>

The best thing that can be said about you Howard is that your inability to
perform is balanced. :-) You are simply not qualified to give an opinion of
any audio equipment - except as a joke of course. Nothing testifies to that
more than the pile of allison junk in your trailer, the so called "reference
system".

>> Well, John...you know the answer. You are a winner in the world of audio.
>> You love it, you made it popular and you made it pay off.
>
> Does this mean that he is a bigger, more respected wheel in
> the business than Nousaine? (Here, I mean respected by the
> engineering community and not by Stereophile groupies.) Give
> me a break.
>
> Howard Ferstler

Well , Nousaine is sort of Cesar Chavez of the audio world. The champion of
the tomato pickers who stood out because he learned to read and adopted the
cause of his people because he knew how sorry the rest of them were. Now go
help Arnii with the tomatoes, Howard!

Cheers,

Margaret

PS. Howard, you sound as potent as a neutered chihuahua - again.

tor b

September 18th 04, 02:28 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om
>
>snipped for _clarity_:
>
>
> >This is not
> > "corrupt," as the offensive thread title states, and must be put
> > against the need for reviewers to have more than one reference
> > available.
>
> The corruption issue was yet another troll that was first recently
> introduced here by the following post:
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
>
> > No, just disgusted that you are corrupt and try to mingle with us.
> > You are CORRUPT!!! EVIL!!! Get it?
>
> > Howard, get the hell outta here. You're a moral degenerate.
>
> It was quickly supported by Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end manufactuers.
>
> Intersting how receiving *accomodations* is OK once John Atkinson *approves*
> it...
>
> IOW, just the usual RAO harassement and hypocrisy from the usual list of RAO
> mental midgets.

Robert Morein

September 18th 04, 04:55 AM

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > said:
>
> >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died
from
> >rust.
> >I felt I was doing the right thing.
>
> A VW that's rusting away?
> You must live at the seaside then.
> Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
> VWs.
>
> Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)
>
In the U.S., VW's have always rusted away. The post-Beetle cars are the
worst, because the fenders don't bolt on, and there are putty joints. Around
'98, VW switched to galvanized steel, which should solve the problem.

I am surprised you don't see a lot of rusty pre-98 VW's.
There is a variable line across the U.S., above which the territory is
nicknamed the "rust belt", which some take to refer to the way cars rust,
due to the use of road salt in the winter. In the East, it's Pennsylvania,
Ohio, & north.

Fiats and Alfas rust so fast here nobody remembers what they look like :).

Robert Morein

September 18th 04, 04:59 AM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Morein wrote:
> >
> > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
> > t>...
> > > > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > > > m...
> > > > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>
> > > > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
> > > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>
> > Because he brags about it :).
>
> Not all that much. And is bragging a crime?

Howard has the mental depth of "The Price is Right".
Howard "will be proud to own" the piece he's just given a glowing review to,
paid for by accomodative pricing.

Clyde Slick

September 18th 04, 05:31 AM

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Robert Morein" > said:
> >
> > >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died
> from
> > >rust.
> > >I felt I was doing the right thing.
> >
> > A VW that's rusting away?
> > You must live at the seaside then.
> > Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
> > VWs.
> >
> > Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)
> >
> In the U.S., VW's have always rusted away. The post-Beetle cars are the
> worst, because the fenders don't bolt on, and there are putty joints.
Around
> '98, VW switched to galvanized steel, which should solve the problem.
>
> I am surprised you don't see a lot of rusty pre-98 VW's.
> There is a variable line across the U.S., above which the territory is
> nicknamed the "rust belt", which some take to refer to the way cars rust,
> due to the use of road salt in the winter. In the East, it's Pennsylvania,
> Ohio, & north.
>
> Fiats and Alfas rust so fast here nobody remembers what they look like :).
>
>

I too live in the NE and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
and haven't been for a long time. However, the situation is
worse directly along the coast, at the beach areas.

The 'rust belt' refers to aging abandoned factories, not to cars.

dave weil

September 18th 04, 07:04 AM

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:37:28 +0200, Sander deWaal
> wrote:

>Howard Ferstler > said:
>
>>Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>>beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>>to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>>is their party pooper.
>
>Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
>"tweako-freako audio community"?
>Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
>for better ones, or trying out different CD players to find out which
>one suits him best? Someone who builds his own DAC?
>Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
>hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
>If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.
>
>If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
>stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
>I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
>regular posters AFAIK.

Actually, he doesn't know it, but he's referring to people who feel
compelled to measure the humidity of their homes and sees an intimate
connection between sound quality and the minutest fluctuation of said
humidity levels in modern homes.

There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
another day.

Bruce J. Richman

September 18th 04, 07:48 AM

Dave Weil wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:37:28 +0200, Sander deWaal
> wrote:
>
>>Howard Ferstler > said:
>>
>>>Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>>>beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>>>to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>>>is their party pooper.
>>
>>Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
>>"tweako-freako audio community"?
>>Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
>>for better ones, or trying out different CD players to find out which
>>one suits him best? Someone who builds his own DAC?
>>Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
>>hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
>>If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.
>>
>>If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
>>stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
>>I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
>>regular posters AFAIK.
>
>Actually, he doesn't know it, but he's referring to people who feel
>compelled to measure the humidity of their homes and sees an intimate
>connection between sound quality and the minutest fluctuation of said
>humidity levels in modern homes.
>
>There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
>another day.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Since Ferstler's sole purpose is to engage in smear campaigns against all who
disagree with his anti-individual-preference, anti-subjective-opinion
radicalism, approximately 95-99% of all of RAO's readership probably qualifies.
Paranoid conspiracy theories such as the ones he harbors about the "Evil High
End Establishment" generally grow larger and larger as time goes on.

Bruce J. Richman

Prostate Cancer Man

September 18th 04, 08:50 AM

In article >,
"Robert Morein" > wrote:

> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Robert Morein" > said:
> >
> > >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died
> from
> > >rust.
> > >I felt I was doing the right thing.
> >
> > A VW that's rusting away?
> > You must live at the seaside then.
> > Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
> > VWs.
> >
> > Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)
> >
> In the U.S., VW's have always rusted away. The post-Beetle cars are the
> worst, because the fenders don't bolt on, and there are putty joints. Around
> '98, VW switched to galvanized steel, which should solve the problem.
>
> I am surprised you don't see a lot of rusty pre-98 VW's.
> There is a variable line across the U.S., above which the territory is
> nicknamed the "rust belt", which some take to refer to the way cars rust,
> due to the use of road salt in the winter. In the East, it's Pennsylvania,
> Ohio, & north.

zzzzt. wrong.

The Rust Belt, also known as the Manufacturing Belt, is an area in the
northeastern and north-central United States whose economy was formerly
based largely on heavy industry, manufacturing, and associated
industries. This area is roughly defined as comprising the northern
sections of Indiana and Ohio; the northeastern corner of Illinois; the
Lower Peninsula of Michigan; the Lake Michigan shoreline of Wisconsin;
parts of upstate New York; at least the western half of Pennsylvania;
and the northern part of West Virginia, especially that state's Northern
Panhandle. Sometimes the adjacent portion of the Canadian province of
Ontario is included as well, giving the concept an international
dimension.

By your definition the rust belt would (actually should) be those states
with oceanic borders and/or states that use road salt in the winter.

>
> Fiats and Alfas rust so fast here nobody remembers what they look like :).
>
>

Robert Morein

September 18th 04, 09:37 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Robert Morein" > said:
> > >
[snip]
>
> I too live in the NE and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
> and haven't been for a long time. However, the situation is
> worse directly along the coast, at the beach areas.
>
> The 'rust belt' refers to aging abandoned factories, not to cars.
>
I understand that.
However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where winters
require heavy use of road salt.

Robert Morein

September 18th 04, 09:39 AM

"Prostate Cancer Man" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Robert Morein" > wrote:
>
> > "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Robert Morein" > said:
> > >
> > > >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died
> > from
> > > >rust.
> > > >I felt I was doing the right thing.
> > >
> > > A VW that's rusting away?
> > > You must live at the seaside then.
> > > Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
> > > VWs.
> > >
> > > Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)
> > >
> > In the U.S., VW's have always rusted away. The post-Beetle cars are the
> > worst, because the fenders don't bolt on, and there are putty joints.
Around
> > '98, VW switched to galvanized steel, which should solve the problem.
> >
> > I am surprised you don't see a lot of rusty pre-98 VW's.
> > There is a variable line across the U.S., above which the territory is
> > nicknamed the "rust belt", which some take to refer to the way cars
rust,
> > due to the use of road salt in the winter. In the East, it's
Pennsylvania,
> > Ohio, & north.
>
>
> zzzzt. wrong.
>
> The Rust Belt, also known as the Manufacturing Belt, is an area in the
> northeastern and north-central United States whose economy was formerly
> based largely on heavy industry, manufacturing, and associated
> industries. This area is roughly defined as comprising the northern
> sections of Indiana and Ohio; the northeastern corner of Illinois; the
> Lower Peninsula of Michigan; the Lake Michigan shoreline of Wisconsin;
> parts of upstate New York; at least the western half of Pennsylvania;
> and the northern part of West Virginia, especially that state's Northern
> Panhandle. Sometimes the adjacent portion of the Canadian province of
> Ontario is included as well, giving the concept an international
> dimension.
>
Please don't plagiarize.
Your quote is very appropriate, but you should give proper attribution.

John Atkinson

September 18th 04, 12:31 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om
> > (Nousaine) wrote in message
> > >...
> >> As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were
> >> somehow "better" than me because you has spent "more" money on
> >> audio than I had on a particular car.
> >
> > As I wrote, that must be a projection on your part because my
> > literal words, quoted above, say no such thing. In fact, I endorse
> > you exercising your choice.
>
> Atkinson has no response.

Why would I respond to my own posting, Mr. Krueger? You should note that
it is Tom Nousaine who has not responded. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

imispgh

September 18th 04, 03:20 PM

John Atkinson wrote:
> (John Atkinson) wrote in message
> >...
>
>>Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has referred on
>>r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.
>
>
> Brainfade on my part. Tom last raised the issue on rec.audio.high-end.
> See, for example, message >.
>
> John Atkinson
> Editor, Stereophile
John

I understand your desire to defend yourself and your position. However.
.. .it seems to me (as I have checked in from time to time) that the
effort isn't worth it. Do you think the forum here represents an large
percentage of your readership? If so then fight the good fight. If
not then I suggest to take a breathe, get on with your life and chalk
this up a a lost cause.

As for the rest of you who live on this site. . . get a life. (I say
this as someone who owns a high end stereo, has a dedicated room for
listening, subscribes to several mags and who has - to a lesser degree -
been one of you. In addition I would hope none of you are married, have
girlfriends or kids. If so your prioroties are out of whack)

paul packer

September 18th 04, 03:56 PM

>As for the rest of you who live on this site. . . get a life. (I say
>this as someone who owns a high end stereo, has a dedicated room for
>listening, subscribes to several mags and who has - to a lesser degree -
>been one of you. In addition I would hope none of you are married, have
>girlfriends or kids. If so your prioroties are out of whack)

Good points. Pity no one here is going to take the slightest notice.

S888Wheel

September 18th 04, 07:15 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/17/2004 2:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Robert Morein wrote:
>>
>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>> t>...
>> > > "tor b" > wrote in message
>> > > m...
>> > > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>
>> > > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>
>> > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>
>> Because he brags about it :).
>
>Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>is their party pooper.

No you get beat up for saying and doing stupid things.

>
>Accommodation prices are common knowledge in the audio
>community. Heck, audio store owners (and often the clerks
>who work there) get the same breaks.
>
>Howard Ferstler
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bruce J. Richman

September 18th 04, 08:31 PM

Scott Wheeler wrote:

>>From: Howard Ferstler
>>Date: 9/17/2004 2:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Robert Morein wrote:
>>>
>>> "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> om...
>>> > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
>>> t>...
>>> > > "tor b" > wrote in message
>>> > > m...
>>> > > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>>
>>> > > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
>>
>>> > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>>
>>> Because he brags about it :).
>>
>>Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>>beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>>to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>>is their party pooper.
>
>No you get beat up for saying and doing stupid things.
>
>
>>
>>Accommodation prices are common knowledge in the audio
>>community. Heck, audio store owners (and often the clerks
>>who work there) get the same breaks.
>>
>>Howard Ferstler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Political corectness" is just another of Ferstler's delusional beliefs. He
fantasizes that people actually copy each other here, when in reality, his
nastiness and dishonesty just generates similar reactions from the majority of
RAO posters. Consensual validation of his despicable reputation is indeed
quite convincing. He's his own worst enemy.

Bruce J. Richman

Marc Phillips

September 18th 04, 10:00 PM

The Milkman said:

(Marc Phillips) wrote:
>
>>>>> ..Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
>>>>> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
>>>>> manufactuers.
>>>>
>>>> URL for that?
>>>
>>>In the tradition of Marc Phillips: www.google.com
>>
>>In other words, it's a lie.
>
>You don't suppose he's jealous of you for winning that fancy amp? ;-)

Arny also entered the contest, with an unsurprisingly awful essay which totally
missed the point. Afterward, he insinuated that there was something suspicious
about me winning the contest, although he never offered one single elaboration
on that half-formed idea. In fact, eighteen months after he made the comment.
he finally admitted that he couldn't remember what he meant.

So yeah, Arny was jealous.

Boon

Prostate Cancer Man

September 18th 04, 10:28 PM

In article >,
"Robert Morein" > wrote:

> "Prostate Cancer Man" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote:
> >
> > > "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Robert Morein" > said:
> > > >
> > > > >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel, till it died
> > > from
> > > > >rust.
> > > > >I felt I was doing the right thing.
> > > >
> > > > A VW that's rusting away?
> > > > You must live at the seaside then.
> > > > Here in Holland it's pretty wet as well, but seldom I see rusted away
> > > > VWs.
> > > >
> > > > Now if you want to talk about rust, take a Fiat or Alfa Romeo :-)
> > > >
> > > In the U.S., VW's have always rusted away. The post-Beetle cars are the
> > > worst, because the fenders don't bolt on, and there are putty joints.
> Around
> > > '98, VW switched to galvanized steel, which should solve the problem.
> > >
> > > I am surprised you don't see a lot of rusty pre-98 VW's.
> > > There is a variable line across the U.S., above which the territory is
> > > nicknamed the "rust belt", which some take to refer to the way cars
> rust,
> > > due to the use of road salt in the winter. In the East, it's
> Pennsylvania,
> > > Ohio, & north.
> >
> >
> > zzzzt. wrong.
> >
> > The Rust Belt, also known as the Manufacturing Belt, is an area in the
> > northeastern and north-central United States whose economy was formerly
> > based largely on heavy industry, manufacturing, and associated
> > industries. This area is roughly defined as comprising the northern
> > sections of Indiana and Ohio; the northeastern corner of Illinois; the
> > Lower Peninsula of Michigan; the Lake Michigan shoreline of Wisconsin;
> > parts of upstate New York; at least the western half of Pennsylvania;
> > and the northern part of West Virginia, especially that state's Northern
> > Panhandle. Sometimes the adjacent portion of the Canadian province of
> > Ontario is included as well, giving the concept an international
> > dimension.
> >
> Please don't plagiarize.
> Your quote is very appropriate, but you should give proper attribution.
>
>

You're absolutely right, although I am honored that you thought anyone
could mistake this as my well written thoughts.

Wikipedia.com

Robert Morein

September 18th 04, 11:19 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om
>
> > I believe that Stereophile's policies are more rigorous than those at
> > other magazines, but I don't have hard information on the latter, of
> > course.
>
>
> > Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every
> > piece of audio equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation
> > price, which tends to be the price the dealer pays.
>
> IME, this is pretty typical.
>
>
> >This is not
> > "corrupt," as the offensive thread title states, and must be put
> > against the need for reviewers to have more than one reference
> > available.
>
> The corruption issue was yet another troll that was first recently
> introduced here by the following post:
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
>
> > No, just disgusted that you are corrupt and try to mingle with us.
> > You are CORRUPT!!! EVIL!!! Get it?
>
> > Howard, get the hell outta here. You're a moral degenerate.
>
> It was quickly supported by Marc Phillips,who has in the past bragged here
> about at least one gift of expensive equipment from a high end
manufactuers.
>
Could that be why Trotsky's foray failed?
Perhaps if he had offered them to Dave at manufacturer's cost?
The cabinetry was pretty nice, note.

Robert Morein

September 19th 04, 12:52 AM

"imispgh" > wrote in message
...
> John Atkinson wrote:
> > (John Atkinson) wrote in message
> > >...
> >
> >>Note that this is not the first time Tom Nousaine has referred on
> >>r.a.o. to the subject of how much Stereophile's writers are paid.
> >
> >
> > Brainfade on my part. Tom last raised the issue on rec.audio.high-end.
> > See, for example, message >.
> >
> > John Atkinson
> > Editor, Stereophile
> John
>
> I understand your desire to defend yourself and your position. However.
> . .it seems to me (as I have checked in from time to time) that the
> effort isn't worth it. Do you think the forum here represents an large
> percentage of your readership? If so then fight the good fight. If
> not then I suggest to take a breathe, get on with your life and chalk
> this up a a lost cause.
>
> As for the rest of you who live on this site. . . get a life. (I say
> this as someone who owns a high end stereo, has a dedicated room for
> listening, subscribes to several mags and ...whack)

Beat-off material?
Welcome, welcome. You've come [sic] to the right place.

Robert Morein

September 19th 04, 01:01 AM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> tor b wrote:
> >
> > "Michael McKelvy" > wrote in message
t>...
> > > "tor b" > wrote in message
> > > m...
> > > > Anyone think he pays retail? ;-)
>
> > > Do you think anybody who writes for any audio magazine pays retail?
> >
> > Why, then, is Ferstler getting beat up about this?
>
> It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
> Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.
>
> Howard Ferstler

Howard, I'm not a tweako. Most of my equipment is ten years old, I wire with
triple runs of common zipcord, I don't listen to vinyl, I have a lot of
"Sony", supplemented by afew choice preamps and DACs, and I have a surround
system, albeit with separate amplification.

So your explanation is wrong; it cannot explain why I despise you.

Robert Morein

September 19th 04, 07:39 AM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Robert Morein said:
>
> > > I too live in the NE
>
> Actually, you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
>
> > > and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
>
> Not in Maryland.
>
> > I understand that.
> > However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where
winters
> > require heavy use of road salt.
>
> Not really true of Philadelphia either. Pittsburgh maybe, since their
> average winter temperature is a few degrees colder.
>
Aw, come on, George.
I've got bags of salt in my garage. We use it every winter.
So does PennDOT, which is why I lost a Rabbit and two Golfs to corrosion.
I just patched my Subaru for the third time.
We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done. All because of sodium
chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of Delaware? A
mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and Virginia, I
found they use very little salt.

Robert Morein

September 19th 04, 07:41 AM

"The Milkman" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote:
>
> >A while back, I was very happy driving my Rabbit diesel
>
> Why oh why oh why oh why must they call them Rabbits over there....
>
> In fact... Golf??? Polo???
>
The Polo is/was smaller. I drove one in Europe years ago.
The Rabbit was rechristened the Golf some years ago, to match the European
designation.

I prefer the old name.

Robert Morein

September 19th 04, 07:43 AM

Prostate Cancer Man

September 19th 04, 09:59 AM

In article >,
"Robert Morein" > wrote:

> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Robert Morein said:
> >
> > > > I too live in the NE
> >
> > Actually, you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
> >
> > > > and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
> >
> > Not in Maryland.
> >
> > > I understand that.
> > > However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where
> winters
> > > require heavy use of road salt.
> >
> > Not really true of Philadelphia either. Pittsburgh maybe, since their
> > average winter temperature is a few degrees colder.
> >
> Aw, come on, George.
> I've got bags of salt in my garage. We use it every winter.
> So does PennDOT, which is why I lost a Rabbit and two Golfs to corrosion.
> I just patched my Subaru for the third time.
> We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done.

And here you were telling all that your Merecedes was powered by
GASOLINE in one of the energy groups (that being why having 1000 gallons
of diesel wasn't a wise choice to store...the fear of it going bad.)

All because of sodium
> chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
> Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of Delaware? A
> mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and Virginia, I
> found they use very little salt.
>
>

Clyde Slick

September 19th 04, 03:19 PM

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Robert Morein said:
> >
> > > > I too live in the NE
> >
> > Actually, you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
> >
> > > > and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
> >
> > Not in Maryland.
> >
> > > I understand that.
> > > However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where
> winters
> > > require heavy use of road salt.
> >
> > Not really true of Philadelphia either. Pittsburgh maybe, since their
> > average winter temperature is a few degrees colder.
> >
> Aw, come on, George.
> I've got bags of salt in my garage. We use it every winter.
> So does PennDOT, which is why I lost a Rabbit and two Golfs to corrosion.
> I just patched my Subaru for the third time.
> We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done. All because of
sodium
> chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
> Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of Delaware? A
> mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and Virginia, I
> found they use very little salt.
>
>

Well, in my part of Maryland we predominantly use Sodium Chloride treated
with some Calcium Chloride. We use considerable amounts in a typical
winter.
The Baltimore and Philadelphia weather is not much different.

Clyde Slick

September 19th 04, 04:26 PM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Clyde Slick said:
>
> > > We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done. All because of
sodium
> > > chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
> > > Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of
Delaware? A
> > > mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and
Virginia, I
> > > found they use very little salt.
>
> > Well, in my part of Maryland we predominantly use Sodium Chloride
treated
> > with some Calcium Chloride. We use considerable amounts in a typical
> > winter.
> > The Baltimore and Philadelphia weather is not much different.
>
> What does this have to do with audio?
>

car antenna rust?

Sander deWaal

September 19th 04, 06:29 PM

The Milkman > said:

>>Overhere, Citroens are cheap as dirt.

>They're cheap everywhere.. ;-)

But underestimated.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Nousaine

September 19th 04, 07:14 PM

(John Atkinson) wrote:

(Nousaine) wrote in message
>...
>> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>> (Nousaine) wrote in message
>> >...
>> >> (John Atkinson) wrote:
>> >> >regarding all the silliness in this thread about my "Mercedes
>> >> >collection," I don't see the relevance of this to audio. Surely
>> >> >how I choose to spend my disposable income is up to me?
>> >>
>> >> How you spend your diposable is certainly your own personal business;
>> >
>> >Thank you for acknowledging something that should be self-evident. So
>> >why then did you and others bring it up in this thread?
>>
>> I didn't bring it up. But why did you make it an issue in a prior thread?
>>
>> >> but you once implied that my purchase of a Corvette was less
>> >>responsible because you, Mr Atkinson, chose to spend your income on
>> >>audio.
>> >
>> >With respect, I said nothing like that. I raised the fact that I have
>> >spent more on my audio system (even at accommodation prices) than you
>> >did on your car as being a good example of how choice and preference
>> >works.
>>
>> But you didn't ask or refer about how much money I may have spent on my
>> audio system, did you?
>
>No. I don't think it my business, any more than how much I have spent on
>audio equipment or how much I paid for my cars, or how much Stereophile
>pays its writers (all questions you have asked of me on the newsgroups)
>are your concern.
>
>> So your strawman reference was irrelevant; was it not?
>
>A) it wasn't a "strawman." B) It wasn't irrelevant. Here are the comments
>I made in 1999 concerning this subject and to which you were referring.
>The context was your previously expressing approval of your Corvette,
>just as you have done in this thread (with which I do not have a problem)
>and the subject of personal preference illustrated by our personal choices:
>
>>>As I write this, I am listening to the Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello CD,
>>>played on a Levinson No.31.5/30.5 CD player, amplification a Meridian
>>>518 digital volume control and a pair of Levinson No.33H monoblocks,
>>>driving B&W Silver Signature loudspeakers, all of which I have forked over
>>>my hard-earned money for. The result is musical ecstasy and that to me is
>>>a fair return for the cash outlay. I am sure that as Tom Nousaine drives
>>>his Corvette over some demanding roads, he experiences similar joy.
>>>
>>>whereas Tom Nousaine's choice is to spend a lot of money on a car, my
>>>choice was to spend that money on my audio system. Both choices are
>>>equally valid in that they are subjective in the truest sense of the word.
>
>Seems clear enough to me.
>
>>As far as I could tell you were making a comment that you were somehow
>>"better" than me because you has spent "more" money on audio than I had
>>on a particular car.
>
>As I wrote, that must be a projection on your part because my literal
>words, quoted above, say no such thing. In fact, I endorse you exercising
>your choice.
>
>John Atkinson
>Editor, Stereophile

But you completely ignored the possibility that I had spent other funds on
audio equipment as well, as though there was only one decision
possibility....to buy a Corvette or audio gear. This also completely ignores
that you may have paid even more than the cost of a Corvette on a Mercedes
collection.

As I see it your entire argument was laden with inference meant to demean my
subjective decisions by making a limited and erroneous 'decision' comparison.
In other words suggesting that choosing to buy audio equipment was somehow more
virtuous than buying transportation.

Nousaine

September 19th 04, 07:30 PM

"Robert Morein"
wrote:

....snip.....

nousaine wrote:.>> What's interesting is that most anti-corvette posters do not
recognize the
>> qualities of the vehicle. It's a car for $45k where measured performance
>beats
>> anything less than 2-3 times that amount (I bought my 1st Corvette a '94,
>6-spd
>> for $29,000) which costs less than practically any "luxury" vehicle.
>>
>Interesting. Perhaps the reputation of the car is a leftover of previous
>designs.
>In the old days, the fiberglass body of the 'Vette was famous for loosening
>up.
>The engine was a big pushrod design that didn't have the longevity of a
>comparable OHC import engine.
>The noise level was high, and the ride was rough.
>It was a pretty car, and it performed well, but it demanded sacrifices from
>the owner.
>OTOH, it was still far more maintainable than the Ferraris of the time.
>
>But it's still not a very functional car, except in the limited of single
>person transportation with minimal luggage.

There's another misconception. The C5 Corvette coupe has 25-cubic feet of
luggage capability in the hatch area and is very comfortable transportation for
2 on any long trip. The ride is controlled but quite comfortable. The mileage
is quite surprising for a 350-CID pushrod V-8; I just traveled 1600 miles to
Duluth MN and back for the Bayfront Blues Festival at 28.0 mpg at highway
speeds (typically 80 mph.)

The Corvette is also relatively economical to own. I'm nearing 250k total miles
on 2 C4s (94,'95) and now a '01 C5 with exactly 1 fuel pump failure (100k on
the '95). Insurance costs $500 for 6-months. I've never replaced a set of
rotors and brake pads have been the only routine maintenance other than oil and
cooling changes and 2 serpentine belts. The only more expensive cost is the
price of Z-rated tires ($1000 a set.)

All this allows one to enjoy motoring and have lots of capital to apply to
audio/Home Theater/acoustical test equipment.

>It's a cop magnet, which is why I very seldom see them driven fast on the
>road.
>I pass them all the time in my '92 Subaru, which attracts no attention from
>anybody.

Maybe that's because Corvette owners are just so responsible. Many drive slowly
in order to see the rear styling treatments of other vehicles.

Bruce J. Richman

September 19th 04, 08:18 PM

Mr. Milkman wrote:

(Nousaine) wrote:
>
>>There's another misconception. The C5 Corvette coupe has 25-cubic feet of
>>luggage capability in the hatch area
>
>That will be the "testicle" that's hanging off the back then.
>
>
>
>----------
>I Deliver.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Or maybe a firehose.

Bruce J. Richman

ScottW

September 19th 04, 09:15 PM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > Robert Morein said:
>> >
>> > > > I too live in the NE
>> >
>> > Actually, you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
>> >
>> > > > and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
>> >
>> > Not in Maryland.
>> >
>> > > I understand that.
>> > > However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where
>> winters
>> > > require heavy use of road salt.
>> >
>> > Not really true of Philadelphia either. Pittsburgh maybe, since their
>> > average winter temperature is a few degrees colder.
>> >
>> Aw, come on, George.
>> I've got bags of salt in my garage. We use it every winter.
>> So does PennDOT, which is why I lost a Rabbit and two Golfs to
>> corrosion.
>> I just patched my Subaru for the third time.
>> We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done. All because of
> sodium
>> chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
>> Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of Delaware? A
>> mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and Virginia,
>> I
>> found they use very little salt.
>>
>>
>
> Well, in my part of Maryland we predominantly use Sodium Chloride treated
> with some Calcium Chloride. We use considerable amounts in a typical
> winter.
> The Baltimore and Philadelphia weather is not much different.

Magnesium Chloride is the latest in technology for road anti-icing. It
comes in solution, is sprayed on the road before the storm and prevents ice
and snow sticking.

http://164.165.237.41/ida-road/WinterMaint-AntiIcing.htm

Problem with that stuff is, its sticky. It can coat the undercarriage of
vehicles and your average detergent car wash won't remove it.

Look at some of the stuff the truck cleaners are coming out with. This is
some nasty stuff.

http://www.zep.com/ProductCatalog/ProductBrowse.asp?img=products&superSection=24&section=138&subSection=940

The SAE spurned by the trucking industry's realization that vehicle
corrosion has gotten worse, much worse in certain areas of the country using
mag chloride has resulted in numerous committees and test methods attempting
to simulate.
Most salt fog tests stds for corrosion resistance using 5% NaCl are maximum
of 96 hours. We're having to test for 1000 hours to see equivalent results
on field returns from MgCl using areas. Needless to say... if you have a
collectible car in one of these areas, you can no longer just stay off the
road after the storms passed and the roads are clear. You need to stay off
before the storm when the antiicing agents are being deposited as well as
long after since MgCl doesn't rinse off the road as easily as NaCl. I'd
stay off the roads anytime they are wet in the winter in MgCl using areas.

ScottW

Clyde Slick

September 19th 04, 10:37 PM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:0Ol3d.100422$yh.90831@fed1read05...
>
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Robert Morein said:
> >> >
> >> > > > I too live in the NE
> >> >
> >> > Actually, you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
> >> >
> >> > > > and rusty cars are generally not a problem,
> >> >
> >> > Not in Maryland.
> >> >
> >> > > I understand that.
> >> > > However, the Rust Belt does encompass the areas of the U.S. where
> >> winters
> >> > > require heavy use of road salt.
> >> >
> >> > Not really true of Philadelphia either. Pittsburgh maybe, since their
> >> > average winter temperature is a few degrees colder.
> >> >
> >> Aw, come on, George.
> >> I've got bags of salt in my garage. We use it every winter.
> >> So does PennDOT, which is why I lost a Rabbit and two Golfs to
> >> corrosion.
> >> I just patched my Subaru for the third time.
> >> We have a Mercedes diesel that had some rot work done. All because of
> > sodium
> >> chloride -- calcium chloride is supposed to be a bit less harmful.
> >> Do I recall correctly that you reside in the sunnier clime of Delaware?
A
> >> mere degree of latitude can make a difference. In Maryland and
Virginia,
> >> I
> >> found they use very little salt.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Well, in my part of Maryland we predominantly use Sodium Chloride
treated
> > with some Calcium Chloride. We use considerable amounts in a typical
> > winter.
> > The Baltimore and Philadelphia weather is not much different.
>
> Magnesium Chloride is the latest in technology for road anti-icing. It
> comes in solution, is sprayed on the road before the storm and prevents
ice
> and snow sticking.
>
> http://164.165.237.41/ida-road/WinterMaint-AntiIcing.htm
>
> Problem with that stuff is, its sticky. It can coat the undercarriage of
> vehicles and your average detergent car wash won't remove it.
>
> Look at some of the stuff the truck cleaners are coming out with. This is
> some nasty stuff.
>
>
http://www.zep.com/ProductCatalog/ProductBrowse.asp?img=products&superSection=24&section=138&subSection=940
>
> The SAE spurned by the trucking industry's realization that vehicle
> corrosion has gotten worse, much worse in certain areas of the country
using
> mag chloride has resulted in numerous committees and test methods
attempting
> to simulate.
> Most salt fog tests stds for corrosion resistance using 5% NaCl are
maximum
> of 96 hours. We're having to test for 1000 hours to see equivalent
results
> on field returns from MgCl using areas. Needless to say... if you have a
> collectible car in one of these areas, you can no longer just stay off the
> road after the storms passed and the roads are clear. You need to stay
off
> before the storm when the antiicing agents are being deposited as well as
> long after since MgCl doesn't rinse off the road as easily as NaCl. I'd
> stay off the roads anytime they are wet in the winter in MgCl using areas.
>
> ScottW
>
>

Its very expensive stuff.

Here is a good source on the basics of road treatments
http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rmj/9712/rm971202.htm

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:00 AM

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Brother Horace gathers his sackcloth skirts and skips through his
> private field of Ashes of Penitence.
>
> > > Speaking for myself, I have personally purchased almost every piece of audio
> > > equipment in my system, at the usual accommodation price, which tends to be
> > > the price the dealer pays. This is not "corrupt," as the offensive thread
> > > title states, and must be put against the need for reviewers to have more
> > > than one reference available.
> >
> > I have to agree with this statement. It also applies to me.
> > I see nothing wrong at all with a reviewer getting an
> > accommodation price for equipment. Heck, dealers and
> > salesmen often get the same kind of bargains.

> Yes, as another poster already pointed out, it's clear you think of
> yourself as a sort of adjunct salesdroid. And thanks to your extended
> bloviations about your own personal ideology, we also know exactly what
> your criteria for shilling are.

No you do not. You have not read enough of my published
material (books or magazine articles and reviews) to have
intelligently draw conclusions about my audio knowledge. All
you know is that I think that most of you RAO goofballs are
just that: goofballs.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:04 AM

Robert Morein wrote:
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> ...

> > It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
> > Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.

> Howard, I'm not a tweako. Most of my equipment is ten years old, I wire with
> triple runs of common zipcord, I don't listen to vinyl, I have a lot of
> "Sony", supplemented by afew choice preamps and DACs, and I have a surround
> system, albeit with separate amplification.
>
> So your explanation is wrong; it cannot explain why I despise you.

Perhaps you simply have a character flaw.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:11 AM

Sander deWaal wrote:
>
> Howard Ferstler > said:
>
> >Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
> >beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
> >to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
> >is their party pooper.

> Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
> "tweako-freako audio community"?

Well, it certainly includes a lot of the RAO group. It also
includes audio writers and reviewers who lionize overpriced
and often weird hardware that essentially offers no serious
bang for the buck whatsoever.

> Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
> for better ones,

Yep. This is assuming that the old caps have not
deteriorated, of course.

> or trying out different CD players to find out which
> one suits him best?

Unless they are shopping for the best remote control or some
special feature, yes.

> Someone who builds his own DAC?

Yep. Why do this when the average CD player has one that
works just fine?

> Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
> hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?

Nope. Obviously, if they have a large LP collection they owe
it to themselves to obtain the best playback device
possible, or at least the best that is affordable. On the
other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
they they are a tweako freako.

> If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.

For some, there is obviously something to be said for a life
in the Fool's Paradise. Nothing wrong with that, unless the
individual talks newcomers into behaving irrationally.

> If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
> stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.

I am sure that some will turn up. Yep, special cables and
stones are indeed the height of weird. However, a hangup on
tube amps that somehow pull forth the best and most
mysterious musical illusions is just as goofy.

> I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
> regular posters AFAIK.

Let's hear about this last statement of yours from some of
those "regular posters."

Howard Ferstler

Marc Phillips

September 20th 04, 12:15 AM

Howard said:

>Robert Morein wrote:
>>
>> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> > It is politically correct in tweako circles to "beat up" on
>> > Ferstler. They boot you from the club if you do not.
>
>> Howard, I'm not a tweako. Most of my equipment is ten years old, I wire
>with
>> triple runs of common zipcord, I don't listen to vinyl, I have a lot of
>> "Sony", supplemented by afew choice preamps and DACs, and I have a surround
>> system, albeit with separate amplification.
>>
>> So your explanation is wrong; it cannot explain why I despise you.
>
>Perhaps you simply have a character flaw.

If intolerance of fraud could be considered a character flaw, you may be right.

Boon

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:16 AM

dave weil wrote:
>
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:37:28 +0200, Sander deWaal
> > wrote:

> >Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
> >"tweako-freako audio community"?
> >Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
> >for better ones, or trying out different CD players to find out which
> >one suits him best? Someone who builds his own DAC?
> >Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
> >hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
> >If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.
> >
> >If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
> >stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
> >I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
> >regular posters AFAIK.

> Actually, he doesn't know it, but he's referring to people who feel
> compelled to measure the humidity of their homes and sees an intimate
> connection between sound quality and the minutest fluctuation of said
> humidity levels in modern homes.

Actually, no. My interest in listening-room humidity
involves the long-term durability of components. I do not
believe that immediate humidity levels amount to much when
it comes to impacting sound quality.

> There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
> another day.

Longer wires = more resistance. Too much resistance is not a
good thing. Fortunately, typical 16 AWG lamp cord is good
enough for typical speaker runs. That pretty much sums it up
for me.

Actually, only a jerk or sucker would pay big bucks for
speaker wire, interconnects, or power cords.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:20 AM

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote:

> Since Ferstler's sole purpose is to engage in smear campaigns against all who
> disagree with his anti-individual-preference, anti-subjective-opinion
> radicalism,

Well, that is not my sole purpose. Actually, I used to cut
the preference crowd some slack.

However, I am tired of that. Out of controlled preference be
damned. What audio needs is a good shot of rationalism and
hard-headed objective behavior at all levels. Sure,
preference is OK if the individual involved is intelligent.
However, if he is a jerk preference is an insidious way to
undermine the stability of the hobby.

> Paranoid conspiracy theories such as the ones he harbors about the "Evil High
> End Establishment" generally grow larger and larger as time goes on.

The so-called evil high-end establishment (be they
manufacturers, marketers, or journalists) is mostly made up
of speculating and non-critical true believers or con
artists.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:21 AM

Robert Morein wrote:

> Howard has the mental depth of "The Price is Right".
> Howard "will be proud to own" the piece he's just given a glowing review to,
> paid for by accomodative pricing.

I see no point in purchasing a sub-par component at any
price and then giving it a glowing review.

Howard Ferstler

Marc Phillips

September 20th 04, 12:23 AM

Howard said:

>Sander deWaal wrote:
>>
>> Howard Ferstler > said:
>>
>> >Not all that much. And is bragging a crime? Actually, I get
>> >beat up by the goofballs, because it is politically correct
>> >to do so within the tweako-freako audio community. Ferstler
>> >is their party pooper.
>
>> Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
>> "tweako-freako audio community"?
>
>Well, it certainly includes a lot of the RAO group. It also
>includes audio writers and reviewers who lionize overpriced
>and often weird hardware that essentially offers no serious
>bang for the buck whatsoever.
>
>> Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
>> for better ones,
>
>Yep. This is assuming that the old caps have not
>deteriorated, of course.
>
>> or trying out different CD players to find out which
>> one suits him best?
>
>Unless they are shopping for the best remote control or some
>special feature, yes.
>
>> Someone who builds his own DAC?
>
>Yep. Why do this when the average CD player has one that
>works just fine?
>
>> Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
>> hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
>
>Nope. Obviously, if they have a large LP collection they owe
>it to themselves to obtain the best playback device
>possible, or at least the best that is affordable. On the
>other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
>recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
>they they are a tweako freako.
>
>> If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.
>
>For some, there is obviously something to be said for a life
>in the Fool's Paradise. Nothing wrong with that, unless the
>individual talks newcomers into behaving irrationally.
>
>> If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
>> stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
>
>I am sure that some will turn up. Yep, special cables and
>stones are indeed the height of weird. However, a hangup on
>tube amps that somehow pull forth the best and most
>mysterious musical illusions is just as goofy.
>
>> I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
>> regular posters AFAIK.
>
>Let's hear about this last statement of yours from some of
>those "regular posters."

I agree with Sander. Who here uses green pens and Shakti Stones and Mpingo
Discs and the like? Face it, Howard...the bees in your bonnet are vacuum tubes
and vinyl. The fact that these two market segments are growing every year makes
you insane. The fact that multi-channel audio is dying on the vine drives you
crazy. And the fact that no one takes you seriously, especially after being
caught plagiarizing, is the last straw.

Do something about it, slick.

Boon

Marc Phillips

September 20th 04, 12:24 AM

Howard said:

>The so-called evil high-end establishment (be they
>manufacturers, marketers, or journalists) is mostly made up
>of speculating and non-critical true believers or con
>artists.

Which, according to you, is worse than being a pedophile.

Boon

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:26 AM

Clyde Slick wrote:
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> ...

> > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
> > from nitwits like you.

> If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.

Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 20th 04, 12:26 AM

Robert Morein wrote:
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> ...

> > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
> > from nitwits like you.

> Then you have a boring life.

Look who's talking. Your world revolves around this place.

Howard Ferstler

S888Wheel

September 20th 04, 12:50 AM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/19/2004 4:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>Well, it certainly includes a lot of the RAO group. It also
>includes audio writers and reviewers who lionize overpriced
>and often weird hardware that essentially offers no serious
>bang for the buck whatsoever.

At least they are published.

> On the
>other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
>recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
>they they are a tweako freako.
>

Superiority is a matter of opinion. Of course anyone would be wierd if they
were delibertely buying product they thought to be inferior if they were doing
so for performance sake. Duh.

S888Wheel

September 20th 04, 12:51 AM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/19/2004 4:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Clyde Slick wrote:
>>
>> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
>> > from nitwits like you.
>
>> If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.
>
>Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.
>
>Howard Ferstler
>
>
>
>
>
>

It must suck to be unwelcomed in your own home.

ScottW

September 20th 04, 01:28 AM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> "Bruce J. Richman" wrote:
>
>> Since Ferstler's sole purpose is to engage in smear campaigns against
>> all who
>> disagree with his anti-individual-preference, anti-subjective-opinion
>> radicalism,
>
> Well, that is not my sole purpose. Actually, I used to cut
> the preference crowd some slack.
>
> However, I am tired of that. Out of controlled preference be
> damned. What audio needs is a good shot of rationalism and
> hard-headed objective behavior at all levels. Sure,
> preference is OK if the individual involved is intelligent.
> However, if he is a jerk preference is an insidious way to
> undermine the stability of the hobby.

What makes you qualified to categorize as jerk or intelligent?

ScottW

ScottW

September 20th 04, 01:29 AM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> Clyde Slick wrote:
>>
>> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
>> > from nitwits like you.
>
>> If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.
>
> Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.

Who let you in?

ScottW

ScottW

September 20th 04, 01:53 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Its very expensive stuff.

However less expensive overall since you can apply it before the storm
without paying drivers long OT.
>
> Here is a good source on the basics of road treatments
> http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rmj/9712/rm971202.htm

This is a bit dated. A seminar I attended a few months ago showed that 13
states were using MgCl.

A dozen others had pilot evaluations underway.

ScottW

Clyde Slick

September 20th 04, 03:08 AM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:Wup3d.102243$yh.36818@fed1read05...
>
> "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Bruce J. Richman" wrote:
> >
> >> Since Ferstler's sole purpose is to engage in smear campaigns against
> >> all who
> >> disagree with his anti-individual-preference, anti-subjective-opinion
> >> radicalism,
> >
> > Well, that is not my sole purpose. Actually, I used to cut
> > the preference crowd some slack.
> >
> > However, I am tired of that. Out of controlled preference be
> > damned. What audio needs is a good shot of rationalism and
> > hard-headed objective behavior at all levels. Sure,
> > preference is OK if the individual involved is intelligent.
> > However, if he is a jerk preference is an insidious way to
> > undermine the stability of the hobby.
>
> What makes you qualified to categorize as jerk or intelligent?
>

Howard is saying that he has nothing at all against the idea
of preference, as long as the preference is the same as his.

Clyde Slick

September 20th 04, 03:19 AM

"ScottW" > wrote in message
news:CSp3d.102384$yh.40161@fed1read05...
>
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Its very expensive stuff.
>
> However less expensive overall since you can apply it before the storm
> without paying drivers long OT.
> >
> > Here is a good source on the basics of road treatments
> > http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rmj/9712/rm971202.htm
>
> This is a bit dated. A seminar I attended a few months ago showed that
13
> states were using MgCl.
>
> A dozen others had pilot evaluations underway.
>

One of the problems with using advanced methods and materials
is that the application procedures get more intricate and complicated,
for the stuff to work correctly. The drivers out on the streets
are neither capable nor interested in learning about or following them.
And that's the usual road maintenance staff. Some of our other truck
drivers during snow events are office personnel, who are normally
professionals or administrative staff. They don't know much about
road operations of any sort. Increasingly, agencies are using more
and more contractors to clear snow and ice from the roads. Usually, these
are
landscape contractors who are otherwise not working in snow and
ice conditions. And, as I know you are aware, many of the contractors
employees speak no English. I spent a few winters out on storms trying
manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their locations.

Arny Krueger

September 20th 04, 11:11 AM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> I spent a few winters out on storms trying
> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
> locations.

No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.

Sander deWaal

September 20th 04, 12:45 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>> Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
>> "tweako-freako audio community"?

>Well, it certainly includes a lot of the RAO group. It also
>includes audio writers and reviewers who lionize overpriced
>and often weird hardware that essentially offers no serious
>bang for the buck whatsoever.

How many audio writers and reviewers post hallelujah messages to RAO
regarding overpriced audio stuff?

<is a tweako-freako someone........>
>> Someone who builds his own DAC?

>Yep. Why do this when the average CD player has one that
>works just fine?

Out of hobbyism?
BTW denying that differences in DACs don't exist, especially in the
analog stages and power supply, shows some ingorance in the technical
department.

>> Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
>> hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?

>Nope. Obviously, if they have a large LP collection they owe
>it to themselves to obtain the best playback device
>possible, or at least the best that is affordable. On the
>other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
>recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
>they they are a tweako freako.

Trashing preference again?

>> If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.

>For some, there is obviously something to be said for a life
>in the Fool's Paradise. Nothing wrong with that, unless the
>individual talks newcomers into behaving irrationally.

I think driving motorcycles is irrational.
It's dangerous, they have no boot space, and you can't take any more
passengers with you but one.

I think living in an area where storms and humidity threaten your life
is irrational.

>> If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
>> stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.

>I am sure that some will turn up. Yep, special cables and
>stones are indeed the height of weird. However, a hangup on
>tube amps that somehow pull forth the best and most
>mysterious musical illusions is just as goofy.

Nope. Tube amps are simple do design and build yourself.
It's a hobby, a pastime for pleasure.
Something you obviously don't understand.
That they often can sound better than the average AV receiver, is a
bonus.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal

September 20th 04, 12:51 PM

OOOPS!

Sander deWaal > said:

>BTW denying that differences in DACs don't exist, especially in the
>analog stages and power supply, shows some ingorance in the technical
>department.

That should read:
Denying that differences in DACs DO exist.........

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Clyde Slick

September 20th 04, 01:06 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> > I spent a few winters out on storms trying
> > manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
> > locations.
>
> No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.
>
>

That was my previous snow duty from secveral years ago.
We office professionals are impressed into it during snow
events. It has nothing to do with my regular work.

ScottW

September 20th 04, 06:54 PM

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message >...
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> news:CSp3d.102384$yh.40161@fed1read05...
> >
> > "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Its very expensive stuff.
> >
> > However less expensive overall since you can apply it before the storm
> > without paying drivers long OT.
> > >
> > > Here is a good source on the basics of road treatments
> > > http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rmj/9712/rm971202.htm
> >
> > This is a bit dated. A seminar I attended a few months ago showed that
> 13
> > states were using MgCl.
> >
> > A dozen others had pilot evaluations underway.
> >
>
> One of the problems with using advanced methods and materials
> is that the application procedures get more intricate and complicated,
> for the stuff to work correctly. The drivers out on the streets
> are neither capable nor interested in learning about or following them.
> And that's the usual road maintenance staff. Some of our other truck
> drivers during snow events are office personnel, who are normally
> professionals or administrative staff. They don't know much about
> road operations of any sort. Increasingly, agencies are using more
> and more contractors to clear snow and ice from the roads. Usually, these
> are
> landscape contractors who are otherwise not working in snow and
> ice conditions. And, as I know you are aware, many of the contractors
> employees speak no English. I spent a few winters out on storms trying
> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their locations.

Thats the benefit of anti-icing or MgCl solution. Its applied with
the equivalent of a water truck which theoretically takes much less
skill to operate than a plow. You apply it as soon as the weatherman
forecasts snow so the drivers aren't operating in hazardous weather
conditions. They can cover areas much faster than a plow and only have
to do it once in front of the storm. It also works at colder temps
than regular salt. It isn't as visible as granulated salt so you don't
get complaints about salt on the road if the storm forecast is wrong.
The downside is the impact to your car.

ScottW

dave weil

September 20th 04, 08:16 PM

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:16:05 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> wrote:

>dave weil wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:37:28 +0200, Sander deWaal
>> > wrote:
>
>> >Just for the sake of clarity, who are you referring to when you say
>> >"tweako-freako audio community"?
>> >Is a tweako-freako someone who replaces the coupling caps in his amp
>> >for better ones, or trying out different CD players to find out which
>> >one suits him best? Someone who builds his own DAC?
>> >Or someone who is using a turntable in his system to enjoy the
>> >hundreds, maybe thousands of LP records he has?
>> >If so, I plead guilty and am proud of it.
>> >
>> >If by any chance you mean people pushing megabuck cables and Shakti
>> >stones, please show me who does so in this newsgroup today.
>> >I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
>> >regular posters AFAIK.
>
>> Actually, he doesn't know it, but he's referring to people who feel
>> compelled to measure the humidity of their homes and sees an intimate
>> connection between sound quality and the minutest fluctuation of said
>> humidity levels in modern homes.
>
>Actually, no. My interest in listening-room humidity
>involves the long-term durability of components.

You're joking right? Are you worried about some capacator eating mold
or something?
>
>> There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
>> another day.
>
>Longer wires = more resistance. Too much resistance is not a
>good thing. Fortunately, typical 16 AWG lamp cord is good
>enough for typical speaker runs. That pretty much sums it up
>for me.

I was actually referring to the fact that you are ueber-proud of your
800 feet of wire.

>Actually, only a jerk or sucker would pay big bucks for
>speaker wire, interconnects, or power cords.

Or being worried about humidity levels in a modern air-conditioned
home, vis a vis audio gear at least.

Arny Krueger

September 21st 04, 12:22 AM

"S888Wheel" > wrote in message

>> From: "Arny Krueger"
>> Date: 9/20/2004 3:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> Message-id: >
>>
>> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>>
>>> I spent a few winters out on storms trying
>>> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
>>> locations.

>> No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.

> What was your occupation again?

Computer consultant - specialising in hardware and operating systems.

>Oh yeah, Usenet.

Wrong again

>How's the pay and benefits?

Whatever I can afford to take from the gross.

Clyde Slick

September 21st 04, 01:10 AM

"S888Wheel" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Arny Krueger"
> >Date: 9/20/2004 3:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >
> >> I spent a few winters out on storms trying
> >> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
> >> locations.
> >
> >No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> What was your occupation again? Oh yeah, Usenet. How's the pay and
benefits?

He still has no idea of my profession. He can figure out
that I work for a government and I already told him
I work with engineers. To that, I will add that my
compensation is equal to that of the engineers.

Clyde Slick

September 21st 04, 01:19 AM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "S888Wheel" > wrote in message
>
> >> From: "Arny Krueger"
> >> Date: 9/20/2004 3:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> Message-id: >
> >>
> >> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> I spent a few winters out on storms trying
> >>> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
> >>> locations.
>
> >> No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.
>
> > What was your occupation again?
>
> Computer consultant - specialising in hardware and operating systems.
>
> >Oh yeah, Usenet.
>
> Wrong again
>
> >How's the pay and benefits?
>
> Whatever I can afford to take from the gross.
>
>

"At least" one box of corn flakes each week.

Bruce J. Richman

September 21st 04, 01:27 AM

Art wrote:

>"S888Wheel" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: "Arny Krueger"
>> >Date: 9/20/2004 3:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>> >
>> >> I spent a few winters out on storms trying
>> >> manage their work, or "at least" trying to keep track of their
>> >> locations.
>> >
>> >No wonder you've been so secretive about your occupation, Art.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> What was your occupation again? Oh yeah, Usenet. How's the pay and
>benefits?
>
>He still has no idea of my profession. He can figure out
>that I work for a government and I already told him
>I work with engineers. To that, I will add that my
>compensation is equal to that of the engineers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

When I was in high school, I used to work part-time as a carbonic engineer.

Bruce J. Richman

Clyde Slick

September 22nd 04, 08:04 PM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> Clyde Slick wrote:
> >
> > "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
> > > from nitwits like you.
>
> > If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.
>
> Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.
>
I'll bring a licensed psychologist to vouch for me.

Bruce J. Richman

September 22nd 04, 08:27 PM

Clyde Slick wrote:

>"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
>> Clyde Slick wrote:
>> >
>> > "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>>
>> > > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
>> > > from nitwits like you.
>>
>> > If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.
>>
>> Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.
>>
>I'll bring a licensed psychologist to vouch for me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

As you know, I live in Florida and am licensed. My only requirement is that I
get to evaluate both you and Ferstler. And if anybody needs to be
hospitalized, there is a hospital for criminally insane not too far from where
Ferstler lives.

Bruce J. Richman

Lionel

September 22nd 04, 08:36 PM

Bruce J. Richman wrote:

> Clyde Slick wrote:
>
>
>>"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
>>> Clyde Slick wrote:
>>> >
>>> > "Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
>>> > ...
>>>
>>> > > One of my great enjoyments here is to hear stuff like this
>>> > > from nitwits like you.
>>>
>>> > If you invite me over your house, I can deliver it in person.
>>>
>>> Only sane people are welcome at my place, goofball.
>>>
>>I'll bring a licensed psychologist to vouch for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> As you know, I live in Florida and am licensed. My only requirement is
> that I
> get to evaluate both you and Ferstler. And if anybody needs to be
> hospitalized, there is a hospital for criminally insane not too far from
> where Ferstler lives.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce J. Richman
> Limited Psychologist

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 05:09 PM

Marc Phillips wrote:
>
> Howard said:

> >I am sure that some will turn up. Yep, special cables and
> >stones are indeed the height of weird. However, a hangup on
> >tube amps that somehow pull forth the best and most
> >mysterious musical illusions is just as goofy.

> >> I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
> >> regular posters AFAIK.

> >Let's hear about this last statement of yours from some of
> >those "regular posters."

> I agree with Sander.

This is certainly a surprise.

> Who here uses green pens and Shakti Stones and Mpingo
> Discs and the like? Face it, Howard...the bees in your bonnet are vacuum tubes
> and vinyl. The fact that these two market segments are growing every year makes
> you insane.

Not really. What bugs me are people who buy such stuff.
Mentally deficient people make me nervous.

> The fact that multi-channel audio is dying on the vine drives you
> crazy.

Not really. In several of my articles I have pointed out
that a good DSP surround synthesizer or ambiance extracting
circuit can make a two-channel CD sound nearly as good as,
and sometimes better than, most 5.1-channel recordings. (At
least if the listener does not want individual instruments
in the surround channels.) Also, DD and DTS have the ability
to sound as good as SACD or DVD-A, and so there really is no
reason for those two "special" formats in the first place,
in spite of their technical excellence.

> And the fact that no one takes you seriously, especially after being
> caught plagiarizing, is the last straw.

You should say "no one here" and not just "no one," and also
note that you do not speak for everyone on RAO, anyway. That
the RAO goofballs do not like me is a feather in my cap. If
you guys were buddying up to me I would wonder where I went
wrong.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 05:11 PM

S888Wheel wrote:
>
> >From: Howard Ferstler
> >Date: 9/19/2004 4:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >

> > On the
> >other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
> >recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
> >they they are a tweako freako.

> Superiority is a matter of opinion.

Superiority is a matter of fact, although I will cut
everyone some slack when it comes to speakers, speaker-room
interactions, and surround processors.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 05:15 PM

dave weil wrote:
>
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:16:05 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> > wrote:

> >Actually, no. My interest in listening-room humidity
> >involves the long-term durability of components.

> You're joking right? Are you worried about some capacator eating mold
> or something?

Humidity can definitely impact the long-term life of
speakers and other audio hardware. Other home furnishings
can also be impacted.

> >> There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
> >> another day.

> >Longer wires = more resistance. Too much resistance is not a
> >good thing. Fortunately, typical 16 AWG lamp cord is good
> >enough for typical speaker runs. That pretty much sums it up
> >for me.

> I was actually referring to the fact that you are ueber-proud of your
> 800 feet of wire.

Well, I do have a lot of wire. None of it expensive,
however.

> >Actually, only a jerk or sucker would pay big bucks for
> >speaker wire, interconnects, or power cords.

> Or being worried about humidity levels in a modern air-conditioned
> home, vis a vis audio gear at least.

During the fall and spring seasons, most AC and heating
hardware is turned off. If we are talking about rainy days
it may also be turned off. Humidity levels can then rise.
Get a humidity gauge and monitor the continuous levels at
your place.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 05:41 PM

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote:
>
> Clyde Slick wrote:

> >I'll bring a licensed psychologist to vouch for me.

> As you know, I live in Florida and am licensed. My only requirement is that I
> get to evaluate both you and Ferstler. And if anybody needs to be
> hospitalized, there is a hospital for criminally insane not too far from where
> Ferstler lives.

This individual is definitely not welcome at my place.

Howard Ferstler

johnebravo836

September 23rd 04, 05:48 PM

Howard Ferstler wrote:

> S888Wheel wrote:
>
>>>From: Howard Ferstler
>>>Date: 9/19/2004 4:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>
>
>>>On the
>>>other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
>>>recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
>>>they they are a tweako freako.
>
>
>
>>Superiority is a matter of opinion.
>
>
> Superiority is a matter of fact,

I take it that by "superiority" you do not necessarily mean "sounds better".

> although I will cut
> everyone some slack when it comes to speakers, speaker-room
> interactions, and surround processors.
>
> Howard Ferstler

S888Wheel

September 23rd 04, 06:04 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/23/2004 9:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>S888Wheel wrote:
>>
>> >From: Howard Ferstler
>> >Date: 9/19/2004 4:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>
>> > On the
>> >other hand, if they choose to purchase new or used LP
>> >recordings in preference to CD versions that are superior,
>> >they they are a tweako freako.
>
>> Superiority is a matter of opinion.
>
>Superiority is a matter of fact,

You are amazingly stupid. That is pretty much a fact.

although I will cut
>everyone some slack when it comes to speakers, speaker-room
>interactions, and surround processors.

IOW you will excuse your own love of low fidelity. You are a joke.

>
>Howard Ferstler
>
>
>
>
>
>

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 06:15 PM

johnebravo836 wrote:
>
> Howard Ferstler wrote:
>
> > S888Wheel wrote:

> >>Superiority is a matter of opinion.

> > Superiority is a matter of fact,

> I take it that by "superiority" you do not necessarily mean "sounds better".

Nope. Superior sounds better when quality software is used.

Now, I suppose a sub-par pair of speakers (with a screwed up
response curve) or an amp that has a high output impedance
and therefore delivers un-flat power to a pair of speakers
(particularly if the speakers have a wild impedance curve)
might sound "superior" with some recordings that were
themselves inferior in just the opposite way from what the
systems or amps provided. Yep, they would sound better, but
that "better" would be accidental.

With the vast bulk of recordings those pieces of equipment
would not be superior and would not sound better.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 06:18 PM

S888Wheel wrote:
>
> >From: Howard Ferstler
> >Date: 9/23/2004 9:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >S888Wheel wrote:

> >> Superiority is a matter of opinion.

> >Superiority is a matter of fact,

> You are amazingly stupid. That is pretty much a fact.

Note that this is not a rebuttal of my contention.

While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
neutral), anyone with a healthy degree of skepticism, the
ability to be educated, and a curious mind would opt to find
out just what is going on with such gear.

You, on the other hand, continue to swoon and let your
imagination run wild.

Howard Ferstler

Bruce J. Richman

September 23rd 04, 06:23 PM

Howard Ferstler wrote:

>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote:
>>
>> Clyde Slick wrote:
>
>> >I'll bring a licensed psychologist to vouch for me.
>
>> As you know, I live in Florida and am licensed. My only requirement is
>that I
>> get to evaluate both you and Ferstler. And if anybody needs to be
>> hospitalized, there is a hospital for criminally insane not too far from
>where
>> Ferstler lives.
>
>This individual is definitely not welcome at my place.
>
>Howard Ferstler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Afraid of being evaluated by a licensed psychologist? Afraid of being Baker
Acted? (involuntary commission to a psychiatric hospital after a face-to-face
evaluation). As with most criminals, hiding of evidence is Ferstler's
"defense".

Don't worry, Ferstler, one doesn't even have to do a face-to-face evaluation to
know that (a) you're a pathological liar, (b) you're always willing to libel
other people on Internet newsgroups but haven't the guts to do so in an
American print publication, (c) you're delusional and paranoid concerning your
imagined conspiracy theories about high-end audio dealers, writers, and
hobbyists. And almost everybody on RAO knows that you exhibit the symptoms of
psychopathic, irrational behavior I've listed above. You demonstrate it with
practically every post you write on RAO.

You've just proven me correct.

Bruce J. Richman

Howard Ferstler

September 23rd 04, 06:41 PM

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote:

> Afraid of being evaluated by a licensed psychologist? Afraid of being Baker
> Acted? (involuntary commission to a psychiatric hospital after a face-to-face
> evaluation). As with most criminals, hiding of evidence is Ferstler's
> "defense".
>
> Don't worry, Ferstler, one doesn't even have to do a face-to-face evaluation to
> know that (a) you're a pathological liar, (b) you're always willing to libel
> other people on Internet newsgroups but haven't the guts to do so in an
> American print publication, (c) you're delusional and paranoid concerning your
> imagined conspiracy theories about high-end audio dealers, writers, and
> hobbyists. And almost everybody on RAO knows that you exhibit the symptoms of
> psychopathic, irrational behavior I've listed above. You demonstrate it with
> practically every post you write on RAO.
>
> You've just proven me correct.

You have been hanging around all morning. Do you have a job?

Howard Ferstler

S888Wheel

September 23rd 04, 07:11 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/23/2004 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>S888Wheel wrote:
>>
>> >From: Howard Ferstler
>> >Date: 9/23/2004 9:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >S888Wheel wrote:
>
>> >> Superiority is a matter of opinion.
>
>> >Superiority is a matter of fact,
>
>> You are amazingly stupid. That is pretty much a fact.
>
>Note that this is not a rebuttal of my contention.

Of course not. Do you want me to rebut your contention or would you like the
opportunity to save face and agree with me that "superiority" is always a
subjective thing?

>
>While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
>(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
>neutral),

Do you swoon when youy listen to your POS system?

anyone with a healthy degree of skepticism, the
>ability to be educated, and a curious mind would opt to find
>out just what is going on with such gear.

You might want to give it a try if you believe this. Or do you realize that
your own religeous zealotry would not pass the scutiny of healthy skeptism?

>
>You, on the other hand, continue to swoon and let your
>imagination run wild.

You continue to project and make an ass of yourself.

dave weil

September 23rd 04, 07:15 PM

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:15:31 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> wrote:

>dave weil wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:16:05 -0400, Howard Ferstler
>> > wrote:
>
>> >Actually, no. My interest in listening-room humidity
>> >involves the long-term durability of components.
>
>> You're joking right? Are you worried about some capacator eating mold
>> or something?
>
>Humidity can definitely impact the long-term life of
>speakers and other audio hardware.

How? I'd be willing to grant that the *extreme lack* of humdity
*could* possibly cause speaker gaskets to "dry out" prematurely. Also,
if you put your receiver in the shower, you might have some problems.
Other than that, you need to provide some documentation that the
normal variations in humidity of the average home can reduce the
service life of the modern hi-fi component. Put up or shut up.

> Other home furnishings can also be impacted.

WEll, when you put plastic on your sofa like you probably do, yes,
damness can be trapped <chuckle>.

>> >> There's also the wire length fetish, but that's better left for
>> >> another day.
>
>> >Longer wires = more resistance. Too much resistance is not a
>> >good thing. Fortunately, typical 16 AWG lamp cord is good
>> >enough for typical speaker runs. That pretty much sums it up
>> >for me.
>
>> I was actually referring to the fact that you are ueber-proud of your
>> 800 feet of wire.
>
>Well, I do have a lot of wire. None of it expensive,
>however.

So? Did I say anything about the expense per foot? No wonder you quit
on your college days. Lack of comprehension *is* frowned upon.

>> >Actually, only a jerk or sucker would pay big bucks for
>> >speaker wire, interconnects, or power cords.
>
>> Or being worried about humidity levels in a modern air-conditioned
>> home, vis a vis audio gear at least.
>
>During the fall and spring seasons, most AC and heating
>hardware is turned off.

If that's the case, then your humidity levels fall or rise to
relatively normal levels as well. Otherwise you'd be treating your
air.

>If we are talking about rainy days
>it may also be turned off. Humidity levels can then rise.

However, at the point where it becomes a problem for you (and
presumably for your gear, which you still haven't established), I
doubt that you are willing to keep your A/C or heat off. After all, it
isn't all that comfortable to be sitting in a 74 degree room with the
humidity level at 90%, now is it? Besides, I thought that your house
was one of those sealed varieties. That should add quite a bit of
stability and shelter from the outside conditions.

>Get a humidity gauge and monitor the continuous levels at
>your place.

No.

Marc Phillips

September 23rd 04, 09:26 PM

Howard said:

>Marc Phillips wrote:
>>
>> Howard said:
>
>> >I am sure that some will turn up. Yep, special cables and
>> >stones are indeed the height of weird. However, a hangup on
>> >tube amps that somehow pull forth the best and most
>> >mysterious musical illusions is just as goofy.
>
>> >> I certainly do not belong to the latter group, nor do any of the
>> >> regular posters AFAIK.
>
>> >Let's hear about this last statement of yours from some of
>> >those "regular posters."
>
>> I agree with Sander.
>
>This is certainly a surprise.
>
>> Who here uses green pens and Shakti Stones and Mpingo
>> Discs and the like? Face it, Howard...the bees in your bonnet are vacuum
>tubes
>> and vinyl. The fact that these two market segments are growing every year
>makes
>> you insane.
>
>Not really. What bugs me are people who buy such stuff.
>Mentally deficient people make me nervous.
>
>> The fact that multi-channel audio is dying on the vine drives you
>> crazy.
>
>Not really. In several of my articles I have pointed out
>that a good DSP surround synthesizer or ambiance extracting
>circuit can make a two-channel CD sound nearly as good as,
>and sometimes better than, most 5.1-channel recordings. (At
>least if the listener does not want individual instruments
>in the surround channels.) Also, DD and DTS have the ability
>to sound as good as SACD or DVD-A, and so there really is no
>reason for those two "special" formats in the first place,
>in spite of their technical excellence.
>
>> And the fact that no one takes you seriously, especially after being
>> caught plagiarizing, is the last straw.
>
>You should say "no one here" and not just "no one," and also
>note that you do not speak for everyone on RAO, anyway. That
>the RAO goofballs do not like me is a feather in my cap. If
>you guys were buddying up to me I would wonder where I went
>wrong.

I've never heard so many nervous rationalizations in one post before. Your
existence here is one giant, twitching defense mechanism. You continue to
dance around the fact that you're a known plagiarist who is showing absolutely
no remorse about your ethical shortcomings.

I just can't figure out why a grown man would subject himself to such ridicule.
You know, unless he was mentally ill, of course.

Boon

Sander deWaal

September 23rd 04, 10:38 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>If you guys were buddying up to me I would wonder where I went
>wrong.

©Oscar Wilde.
And the correct quote would be:
"When people agree with me, it always makes me wonder if I'm not
wrong".

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal

September 23rd 04, 10:42 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>Nope. Superior sounds better when quality software is used.
>
>Now, I suppose a sub-par pair of speakers (with a screwed up
>response curve) or an amp that has a high output impedance
>and therefore delivers un-flat power to a pair of speakers
>(particularly if the speakers have a wild impedance curve)
>might sound "superior" with some recordings that were
>themselves inferior in just the opposite way from what the
>systems or amps provided. Yep, they would sound better, but
>that "better" would be accidental.

You dedinitely must meet Abbedd.
His wow&flutter symphonies must sound great on your system.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal

September 23rd 04, 10:46 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
>(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
>neutral), anyone with a healthy degree of skepticism, the
>ability to be educated, and a curious mind would opt to find
>out just what is going on with such gear.

What's that supposed to mean?
Swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware (please define sub-par) and at
the same time imagine differences when compared with sonically neutral
gear?
In my view, that's mutually exclusive.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal

September 23rd 04, 10:48 PM

dave weil > said:

>Besides, I thought that your house
>was one of those sealed varieties. That should add quite a bit of
>stability and shelter from the outside conditions.

It has nice padded walls, too.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Bruce J. Richman

September 24th 04, 04:59 AM

Sander deWaal wrote:

>dave weil > said:
>
>>Besides, I thought that your house
>>was one of those sealed varieties. That should add quite a bit of
>>stability and shelter from the outside conditions.
>
>It has nice padded walls, too.
>
>--
>Sander deWaal
>"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Given his disconnect from reality, it certainly should have padded walls.
They would also be useful for when he beats his head against the wall after
each failure in dealing with his real and imagined enemies on RAO and in the
larger world of audio hobbyists. Paranoia-driven hatred is a dangerous thing.

Bruce J. Richman

Howard Ferstler

September 24th 04, 11:12 PM

S888Wheel wrote:
>
> >From: Howard Ferstler
> >Date: 9/23/2004 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >

> >While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
> >(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
> >neutral),

> Do you swoon when youy listen to your POS system?

Gotta run. Just received a nifty amp to review. List price
is above $3000, so I suppose it qualifies as decently high
end. We shall see how it compares to some of my POS
receivers, integrated amps, and even a $300 AudioSource Amp
One that I keep on hand for comparison purposes. I will, of
course, use my POS Allison, Dunlavy, and NHT speakers with
the amp.

Some additional upscale speakers also going to be coming
pretty soon, and I can compare them to the POS jobs on hand.
And of course I am now back into home improvements.

Wish I could stay and bug you clowns some more, but duty
calls.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 24th 04, 11:23 PM

"George M. Middius" wrote:
>
> Howard Ferstler said:
>
> > What bugs me are people who buy such stuff.
>
> Yes, we know. But what do all the po' folks in 'hassee think 'bout
> y'all's shiny new cars, Harold?

> > Mentally deficient people make me nervous.

> Really now? I can't imagine how you cope with day-to-day life.

Fortunately, I can tune you idiots out with relative ease.
Anyway, a $3000+ amp just arrived for me to audition and
review. I will try to cope by playing with the amp.

Catch you clowns later. Go discuss tubes, LPs, or audio
gimmicks while I am gone.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler

September 24th 04, 11:26 PM

Marc Phillips wrote:

> I've never heard so many nervous rationalizations in one post before. Your
> existence here is one giant, twitching defense mechanism. You continue to
> dance around the fact that you're a known plagiarist who is showing absolutely
> no remorse about your ethical shortcomings.

At least when people read my product reviews they will not
have to worry about being fed a bum steer.

> I just can't figure out why a grown man would subject himself to such ridicule.
> You know, unless he was mentally ill, of course.

The cackling of a bunch of semi-men is not what I would call
ridicule.

Gotta go play with the big amp that just arrived. You go
play with your tubes, LP recordings, or some other gimmick
products.

Howard Ferstler

Clyde Slick

September 24th 04, 11:28 PM

"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
> S888Wheel wrote:
> >
> > >From: Howard Ferstler
> > >Date: 9/23/2004 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
>
> > >While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
> > >(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
> > >neutral),
>
> > Do you swoon when youy listen to your POS system?
>
> Gotta run. Just received a nifty amp to review. List price
> is above $3000, so I suppose it qualifies as decently high
> end. We shall see how it compares to some of my POS
> receivers, integrated amps, and even a $300 AudioSource Amp
> One that I keep on hand for comparison purposes. I will, of
> course, use my POS Allison, Dunlavy, and NHT speakers with
> the amp.
>
> Some additional upscale speakers also going to be coming
> pretty soon, and I can compare them to the POS jobs on hand.
> And of course I am now back into home improvements.
>
> Wish I could stay and bug you clowns some more, but duty
> calls.
>

One more week till your POS retirement check arrives, so you
will soon be able to repair your POS home.

Howard Ferstler

September 24th 04, 11:32 PM

dave weil wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:15:31 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> > wrote:

> >Humidity can definitely impact the long-term life of
> >speakers and other audio hardware.

> How? I'd be willing to grant that the *extreme lack* of humdity
> *could* possibly cause speaker gaskets to "dry out" prematurely.

Sure. But I keep the levels between 50 and 60 percent. Not
too dry; not too damp.

> Also,
> if you put your receiver in the shower, you might have some problems.
> Other than that, you need to provide some documentation that the
> normal variations in humidity of the average home can reduce the
> service life of the modern hi-fi component. Put up or shut up.

Why take chances? Hey, I think you are just rationalizing
the fact that you have humidity swings in your place. God
knows what that is doing to your gear.

> >During the fall and spring seasons, most AC and heating
> >hardware is turned off.

> If that's the case, then your humidity levels fall or rise to
> relatively normal levels as well. Otherwise you'd be treating your
> air.

Interior humidity will normally be higher than is what is
outside, due to evaporation from toilet bowels, shower
curtains, wet towels, etc. Heck, your breath also adds to
the effect.

> >If we are talking about rainy days
> >it may also be turned off. Humidity levels can then rise.

> However, at the point where it becomes a problem for you (and
> presumably for your gear, which you still haven't established), I
> doubt that you are willing to keep your A/C or heat off. After all, it
> isn't all that comfortable to be sitting in a 74 degree room with the
> humidity level at 90%, now is it? Besides, I thought that your house
> was one of those sealed varieties. That should add quite a bit of
> stability and shelter from the outside conditions.

I have fresh air vents worked in with the AC system. Three
dehumidifiers throughout the house keep the humidity in line
when the AC or heat is off. This is not exactly a big deal.

By the way, the wife also has a grand piano in the living
room. I suppose you will say that humidity is no big deal
with that item, either.

> >Get a humidity gauge and monitor the continuous levels at
> >your place.

> No.

Ignorance is bliss. Gotta go check out an amp that just
arrived for me to review.

Catch you clowns later.

Howard Ferstler

Sander deWaal

September 24th 04, 11:50 PM

Howard Ferstler > said:

>By the way, the wife also has a grand piano in the living
>room. I suppose you will say that humidity is no big deal
>with that item, either.

Such nonsense! Buy a digital piano for her and be done with it.
Feed the outputs through your home theater system and enjoy!
Much more modern, much better.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

dave weil

September 25th 04, 02:21 AM

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:32:25 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> wrote:

>dave weil wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:15:31 -0400, Howard Ferstler
>> > wrote:
>
>> >Humidity can definitely impact the long-term life of
>> >speakers and other audio hardware.
>
>> How? I'd be willing to grant that the *extreme lack* of humdity
>> *could* possibly cause speaker gaskets to "dry out" prematurely.
>
>Sure. But I keep the levels between 50 and 60 percent. Not
>too dry; not too damp.

So? That just means that you stay comfortable. Your amp doesn't care
one way or another.

>> Also,
>> if you put your receiver in the shower, you might have some problems.
>> Other than that, you need to provide some documentation that the
>> normal variations in humidity of the average home can reduce the
>> service life of the modern hi-fi component. Put up or shut up.
>
>Why take chances? Hey, I think you are just rationalizing
>the fact that you have humidity swings in your place. God
>knows what that is doing to your gear.

Like what? The phases of the moon might very well be doing something
to my gear as well. Maybe I should be tracking *them* as well.

>> >During the fall and spring seasons, most AC and heating
>> >hardware is turned off.
>
>> If that's the case, then your humidity levels fall or rise to
>> relatively normal levels as well. Otherwise you'd be treating your
>> air.
>
>Interior humidity will normally be higher than is what is
>outside, due to evaporation from toilet bowels, shower
>curtains, wet towels, etc. Heck, your breath also adds to
>the effect.

If you're going to try to tell me that your house is going to be
drastically affected by your toilet bowl and your breath, I might
believe you, but not for the reasons that you claim. Normally, when
the temperatures are comfortable enough to turn the AC and heat off,
most people actually open windows and doors. That will be enough to
equalize the humidity with the outdoors. In fact, I've got my door
open right now. It's a little warm at 77 degrees and the humidity is a
touch high at 68%, but there's a nice ittle breeze blowing fresh
"uncanned" air through my abode. It's nice. And the temp will be
dropping in the next couple of hours, so it will *really* be nice
shortly.

>> >If we are talking about rainy days
>> >it may also be turned off. Humidity levels can then rise.
>
>> However, at the point where it becomes a problem for you (and
>> presumably for your gear, which you still haven't established), I
>> doubt that you are willing to keep your A/C or heat off. After all, it
>> isn't all that comfortable to be sitting in a 74 degree room with the
>> humidity level at 90%, now is it? Besides, I thought that your house
>> was one of those sealed varieties. That should add quite a bit of
>> stability and shelter from the outside conditions.
>
>I have fresh air vents worked in with the AC system. Three
>dehumidifiers throughout the house keep the humidity in line
>when the AC or heat is off. This is not exactly a big deal.

No, it's not a big deal. Nor is the simple fact that you keep your
himidity at a certain level. Just don't try to pretend that it's for
anything other than creature comfort.

>By the way, the wife also has a grand piano in the living
>room. I suppose you will say that humidity is no big deal
>with that item, either.

Not in the average home it isn't. Maybe if it were Beethoven's piano,
there might be some concern about keeping the humidity levels rock
steady.

>> >Get a humidity gauge and monitor the continuous levels at
>> >your place.
>
>> No.
>
>Ignorance is bliss. Gotta go check out an amp that just
>arrived for me to review.

If you can ever get away from RAO you mean. I'm looking forward to
your take on this amp. After all, a $3000 stereo amp *has* to be a
scam, since it will likely sound identical to every other
reasonably-designed amp, right?

Oh yeah, I don't bother with a micrometer to measure the settling of
my house from year to year either. I still sleep well at night.

>Catch you clowns later.
>
>Howard Ferstler

Bruce J. Richman

September 25th 04, 06:36 AM

Art wrote:

>"Howard Ferstler" > wrote in message
...
>> S888Wheel wrote:
>> >
>> > >From: Howard Ferstler
>> > >Date: 9/23/2004 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >Message-id: >
>>
>> > >While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
>> > >(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
>> > >neutral),
>>
>> > Do you swoon when youy listen to your POS system?
>>
>> Gotta run. Just received a nifty amp to review. List price
>> is above $3000, so I suppose it qualifies as decently high
>> end. We shall see how it compares to some of my POS
>> receivers, integrated amps, and even a $300 AudioSource Amp
>> One that I keep on hand for comparison purposes. I will, of
>> course, use my POS Allison, Dunlavy, and NHT speakers with
>> the amp.
>>
>> Some additional upscale speakers also going to be coming
>> pretty soon, and I can compare them to the POS jobs on hand.
>> And of course I am now back into home improvements.
>>
>> Wish I could stay and bug you clowns some more, but duty
>> calls.
>>
>
>One more week till your POS retirement check arrives, so you
>will soon be able to repair your POS home.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Unfortunately for him, Medicare doesn't cover antipsychotic medications.
However, most psychologists and psychiatrists are Medicare Providers, and the
government may help him repair his POS personality.

Bruce J. Richman

Bruce J. Richman

September 25th 04, 06:39 AM

George M. Middius wrote:

>Horace Fecklebeans lied:
>
>> > > What bugs me are people who buy such stuff.
>> >
>> > Yes, we know. But what do all the po' folks in 'hassee think 'bout
>> > y'all's shiny new cars, Harold?
>>
>> > > Mentally deficient people make me nervous.
>>
>> > Really now? I can't imagine how you cope with day-to-day life.
>>
>> Fortunately, I can tune you idiots out with relative ease.
>> Anyway, a $3000+ amp just arrived for me to audition and
>> review. I will try to cope by playing with the amp.
>
>Do you notice you repeat yourself often? Do your family members seem to
>"forget" conversations you remember, and do you often find yourself
>puzzled at their impatience with you? These are the early signs of
>Alzheimer's syndrome. There is no treatment yet, so it's best to get
>your affairs in order before you lose the ability to do so.
>
>
>> Catch you clowns later.
>
>Oops, I think you're confused again. The only time you hung out with
>clowns is when you went to Professional Audio Reviewers' school. Check
>your diploma if you can't remember.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

His degree is made out to Clarabelle Ferstler, D.D.S. (Ding Dong School).

His personal mentor was Professor Irwin Corey.

Bruce J. Richman

Clyde Slick

September 25th 04, 01:46 PM

"Bruce J. Richman" > wrote in message
...
>
> Unfortunately for him, Medicare doesn't cover antipsychotic medications.
> However, most psychologists and psychiatrists are Medicare Providers, and
the
> government may help him repair his POS personality.
>
>
>

I think he's too old to join the Marines.

S888Wheel

September 25th 04, 05:12 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/24/2004 3:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>
>Fortunately, I can tune you idiots out with relative ease.
>Anyway, a $3000+ amp just arrived for me to audition and
>review. I will try to cope by playing with the amp.

I figured a person of your abilities would simply play with the box it came in.

S888Wheel

September 25th 04, 05:14 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/24/2004 3:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>
>At least when people read my product reviews they will not
>have to worry about being fed a bum steer.

They certainly should worry. You are a proven fraud it that area.

S888Wheel

September 25th 04, 05:26 PM

>From: Howard Ferstler
>Date: 9/24/2004 3:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>S888Wheel wrote:
>>
>> >From: Howard Ferstler
>> >Date: 9/23/2004 10:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>
>> >While an idiot might swoon at the sound of sub-par hardware
>> >(or imagine differences with gear that was sonically
>> >neutral),
>
>> Do you swoon when youy listen to your POS system?
>
>Gotta run.

Reasonable answer. Caught swooning at your POS system and now you gotta run.

Just received a nifty amp to review. List price
>is above $3000, so I suppose it qualifies as decently high
>end.

Nifty? Hmm, I thought you hated such equipment. After all you think all amps
sound the same so this is nothing more than an overpriced hyped up amp. I
thought this was part of what is destroying the hobby in your view. Now that
you have a high end amp (possibly, we don't know what amp it is) in your home
*on loan* for review such amps are nifty. So has your vendetta against such
equipment been a case of class envy or are you just being a hypocrite now?

We shall see how it compares to some of my POS
>receivers, integrated amps, and even a $300 AudioSource Amp
>One that I keep on hand for comparison purposes.

How will *we* see that? You suffer from gross hearing loss and you are known to
lie about your own listening tests. We will know nothing. I bet we can count on
you to suck up and write a positive review ( try not to plagiarize anything
this time) even though such amps are the symbol of the enemy in your crusade
against excellence in audio. I also bet when the amp has to go back you will
continue to attack such products.

I will, of
>course, use my POS Allison, Dunlavy, and NHT speakers with
>the amp.

The Dunlavys that you kept for free are not POS speakers like your Allisons. I
guess your hearing loss prevents you from telling the difference between very
good speakers and very bad speakers.

>
>Some additional upscale speakers also going to be coming
>pretty soon, and I can compare them to the POS jobs on hand.

I don't think you really can.

>And of course I am now back into home improvements.
>
>Wish I could stay and bug you clowns some more, but duty
>calls.

You'll stay. Addiction is a powerful force.