Price of John Hardy Mic Pre's

[chris wollard]

I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
Thanks--
Chris Wollard

[georgeh]

Power supplies, pots, cases, etc. ... the good ones cost.
Mr. Hardy's knowledge and attention to detail : .... PRICELESS.

chris wollard > writes:

> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
>reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
>considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
>John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
>of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
>Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
>after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
>in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
>worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
>mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
>any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
>Thanks--
>Chris Wollard

[Bob Smith]

chris wollard wrote:
>
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?

Consider the following:

What cost for a very low noise, specialized power supply?
What cost for high quality external connectors?
What cost for high quality internal connectors?
Waht cost for internal wire & cabling which has ground noise minimized?
What cost for well shielded, sturdy, rack mount case?
What cost for durable, legible silk screening of front panel?
What cost for high quality gain switch or pots?
What cost for high quality switches for mute, reverse, phantom power,
etc.
What cost for signal metering?
What cost for miscellaneous fasteners, metalwork, etc.
What cost for assembly labor?
What cost for test & alignment labor?
How about the costs of running a low volume, specialized manufacturing
facility?
How about the costs for inventory, shipping, receiving, book keeping,
building maintenance etc.
How about the costs of test equipment, assembly equipment?
How about paying the designer for his engineering time?
Dealer margins?
Anything left for some profit?

I probably left some stuff out, but try and do all this for yourself and
see if you can beat the prices.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

[Rick Knepper]

"chris wollard" > wrote in message
...
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
> Thanks--
> Chris Wollard

You appear not have factored in the actual preamp & the chassis and power
supply yet, much less the R&D, and the labor required to assemble it, and
package it. I'll leave it to others to explain the costs of manufacturing
and retail pricing.

What I think you should do is consider the bigger chassis that you can add
three more preamps to later. Minimum increase in cost.

Rick Knepper
MicroComputer Support Services
Knepper Audio
Ft. Worth, TX
817-239-9632
413-215-1267 Fax
PC Tech Support & Equipment Sales
CDR Duplication & Audio Mastering
Recording
http://www.rknepper.com

[Luke Kaven]

chris wollard > wrote:

> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
>reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
>considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
>John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
>of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
>Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
>after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
>in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
>worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
>mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
>any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
>Thanks--
>Chris Wollard

These preamps are *the* bargain in high-end mic preamps, hands down.
The designer is a perfectionist and entirely unmotivated by profit.
They are damn near cost. The chassis and power supply is a part of
the "buy-in" cost, but the system is modular, which means you can
install (up to total of 4) preamp cards in the chassis for a very low
price. So the initial purchase price is amortized as you buy more
preamps modules for the original chassis. There's no down side.
Service is excellent. The preamps' slight coloration is lovely on
anything. Don't hesitate.

Luke

[John Hardy]

> chris wollard wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
>>> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
>>> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
>>> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
>>> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
>>> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
>>> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
>>> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
>>> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
>>> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
>>> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
>
>
> Consider the following:
>
> What cost for a very low noise, specialized power supply?
> What cost for high quality external connectors?
> What cost for high quality internal connectors?
> Waht cost for internal wire & cabling which has ground noise minimized?
> What cost for well shielded, sturdy, rack mount case?
> What cost for durable, legible silk screening of front panel?
> What cost for high quality gain switch or pots?
> What cost for high quality switches for mute, reverse, phantom power,
> etc.
> What cost for signal metering?
> What cost for miscellaneous fasteners, metalwork, etc.
> What cost for assembly labor?
> What cost for test & alignment labor?
> How about the costs of running a low volume, specialized manufacturing
> facility?
> How about the costs for inventory, shipping, receiving, book keeping,
> building maintenance etc.
> How about the costs of test equipment, assembly equipment?
> How about paying the designer for his engineering time?
> Dealer margins?
> Anything left for some profit?
>
> I probably left some stuff out, but try and do all this for yourself and
> see if you can beat the prices.
>
> bobs
>
> Bob Smith
> BS Studios
> we organize chaos
> http://www.bsstudios.com

Bobs;

You forgot one item: The cost of the time I spend answering
questions in newsgroups (and e-mails, and the telephone, and
at the AES conventions), including questions of why things
cost as much as they do. Your list is a good one (and it
does save me at least some time).

If anyone thinks I'm getting rich doing this, think again.
--
John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

[Scott Dorsey]

chris wollard > wrote:
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
>reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
>considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
>John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
>of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
>Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
>after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
>in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
>worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
>mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
>any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
>Thanks--

That is a VERY good ratio.

On typical consumer gear, you can expect the parts cost to be about 1/10
the retail cost of the gear. That's about what you'll see on Mackie grade
stuff.

Equipment in which the parts cost is a maybe half the cost of the item
(and the case fabrication, by the way, is a BIG high ticket item that
you missed... also the power supply) is pretty amazing. I couldn't sell
stuff that cheap, especially when it's low quantity stuff like this where
you don't have hundreds of thousands of units to amortize your engineering
costs.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Rob Adelman]

chris wollard wrote:
> That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?

Chris, why re-invent the wheel?

I have the M1 (2 channels currently) and highly recommend it. You won't
find any better value in a high end pre.

-Rob

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those?

Sure. Consider the labor in assembling it, the cost of the chassis,
the cost of John's Lexus and 32 foot yacht, and pizza for the assembly
department.

Generally parts cost represents 10 percent or less of the final
selling price.

> That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?

You can get bare boards from Dan Kennedy and build them into your own
chassis with your own power supply, connectors, switches, and
transformers.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[AudioGaff]

Where does all the money go when you buy a new car?
Or when buy a new sofa? Or when you buy a new custom
shop guitar? Who cares as long as the price you pay gives
you the highest quality and best value for what you paid?

I'd be willing to bet that Mr.Hardy would be one of the first
to tell you that if you can find a higher quality and better made
preamp for less money, then go buy it.

The only way to get a mic pre for what the parts cost alone
is if you buy all the parts and put it together yourself. Many
thousands of people have tried, but only a few can do this
on the same level as what you can buy from John Hardy.

--
AudioGaff


"chris wollard" > wrote in message
...
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
> Thanks--
> Chris Wollard
>

[MercuryMan]

Add to this very good list things like buying food, mortgage, car
payment, insurance, rent for Hardy facility, paying employees fair
wage, benefits, Hardy's half of employee SS withholding, and the list
goes on...



Bob Smith > wrote in message >...
> chris wollard wrote:
> >
> > I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> > reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> > considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> > John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> > of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> > Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> > after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> > in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> > worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> > mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> > any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
>
> Consider the following:
>
> What cost for a very low noise, specialized power supply?
> What cost for high quality external connectors?
> What cost for high quality internal connectors?
> Waht cost for internal wire & cabling which has ground noise minimized?
> What cost for well shielded, sturdy, rack mount case?
> What cost for durable, legible silk screening of front panel?
> What cost for high quality gain switch or pots?
> What cost for high quality switches for mute, reverse, phantom power,
> etc.
> What cost for signal metering?
> What cost for miscellaneous fasteners, metalwork, etc.
> What cost for assembly labor?
> What cost for test & alignment labor?
> How about the costs of running a low volume, specialized manufacturing
> facility?
> How about the costs for inventory, shipping, receiving, book keeping,
> building maintenance etc.
> How about the costs of test equipment, assembly equipment?
> How about paying the designer for his engineering time?
> Dealer margins?
> Anything left for some profit?
>
> I probably left some stuff out, but try and do all this for yourself and
> see if you can beat the prices.
>
> bobs
>
> Bob Smith
> BS Studios
> we organize chaos
> http://www.bsstudios.com

[WillStG]

>chris wollard

>Is that about normal for all high-end
>mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
>any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?

Not really. Question is how much it would cost for you to do it
yourself, not what other guys who do it better charge.

By way of the simplest comparison, say you were to for example buy a used
channel strip or a module from a vintage desk and try to rack it up. You got
the cost of the module, the cost of the rack you're gonna stick it in,
finding or designing and assembling yourself a power supply that's got low
enough ripple to not screw the signal up and supply power and maybe phantom,
and you run finding all the parts for that supply and the misc switches and
mounting parts you need to put the thing together, maybe a cool paint finish,
you're only saving just a few bucks. If you consider your time and labor not
worth anything that is, and can stand what your own handywork ends up looking
like.

Speaking of what things look like, Millenia has that really cool black
finish on it's single channel "Twin Direct" TD1, it's got a reamp/DI with a
mullard tube and a channel of HV3 micpre/NSEQ equalizer in it, right now all
for about $1300 or something...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[P Stamler]

Actually he's *not* spending $250 on parts, that's just what you would spend on
them. He's paying somewhat less, because he's buying wholesale.

Typically the total parts cost of a piece of audio gear is about 1/8 of the
retail price. The rest is all the other stuff people have been talking about:
labor costs, overhead for the factory (rent, insurance, heating, etc. etc.),
shipping, taxes, and of course a little profit so the guy can eat. Probably
Hardy's parts cost is a bit higher than 1/8 as he's relatively small, but
that's the right order of magnitude.

Like everyone else has said, it's not such a bad deal. You want a better deal,
build something yourself; get the Great River boards, or do something like the
preamps I've published, or find schematics on the net. It's called sweat
equity, and typically you can get about $2000 worth of value for $1000 or so if
you know what you're doing, and if you have more time than money.

Otherwise, Hardy's preamps offer excellent value for money.

Peace,
Paul

[Analogeezer]

chris wollard > wrote in message >...
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
> Thanks--
> Chris Wollard

I think you ought to take a look inside of one of these things...the
build quality is incredible, it looks like the inside of a satellite,
nothing out of place, all solder joints tight, parts precisely
located, etc.

In my day job I deal with large format (9" x 9") analog and now large
format (similiar to the 9" analog in size) digital camera
systems....these are built by German and Swiss companies and these
things run from $600,000 for the analog ones to $1.2 - $1.6 million
for the digital systems.

I've looked inside of these things and I'd say the build quality of
Hardy's pres is equal to or better than the PCB's and metalwork in
those cameras.

Other people have commented about the general costs of doing business,
customer service, distribtuion, etc.

One thing to keep in mind is that Hardy has been around well before it
became trendy to use outboard preamps, his designs were originally
meant to compete with expensive large format console preamps. He
didn't jump on the preamp bandwagon after the dawn of the DAW era.

Hell I remember the first time I saw an article about the M-1, I
thought "why would anybody buy a separate mic pre when you already
have them in a console".

The guy was pretty ahead of his time if you ask me....

Analogeezer

[Carl Mateo]

Hi,

> "And unless you have need to travel around with your M-1 pre I'd suggest
> getting the 4 channel chassis with one pre channel installed to start. It
> will cost you a little more initially but in the long run as you add
> channels it will be a better value for you."
>

Hi,

I purchase the M1 personal and my only regret is not having spent the
xtra money up front for a single pre in the 4 channel chassi as I will
want to add another and it will cost me more.

Carl

[Jay Kadis]

The best way to see where the money goes is to build one yourself. I did that
several years ago, with the Jensen JT-115K-E/NE5534A circuit design and quickly
found it wasn't an economical decision. It was a great learning experience.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[GKB]

And in building myself , i have found that , sometimes only you know how
good it is , as other people [ who have been influenced by thousands of
dollars of promo / marketing ] may judge it by how it looks and that can often
cost hundreds !

Regards Greg





Jay Kadis wrote:

> The best way to see where the money goes is to build one yourself. I did that
> several years ago, with the Jensen JT-115K-E/NE5534A circuit design and quickly
> found it wasn't an economical decision. It was a great learning experience.
>
> -Jay
> --
> x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
> x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
> x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
> x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Kato Jenkina]

> > John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> > of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> > Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> > after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going

Also note that Hardy preamps use *two* Jensen transformers - one input
and one output - and as you've already discovered, Jensen transformers
are *expensive.*

I build my own preamps and I can tell you from experience, you won't
save any money building them yourself - especially if you're just
building a single channel. My first successful preamp channel cost
almost twice what a JH channel costs plus about 200 man hours. :)

It's worth it, and it's fun. I highly recommend preamp building to
anyone with soldering skills (and a keen interest in masochism.) But
don't do it to save money. After buying all the required tools, knobs,
wires, connectors, chassis, etching chemicals, etc and spending weeks
troubleshooting faulty circuits, you'll come to realize just what a
bargain Hardy preamps are. :)

(Also, John is saving you at least 25% by selling them direct.)
Enjoy your new JH! You'll soon discover, one channel is never
enough...

[EggHd]

<< and of course a little profit so the guy can eat. >>

That would be part of overhead. Profit would be making overhead and having
money left over.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

chris wollard wrote:

> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?

Parts is parts, with good parts being more costly. What you are actually
buying is the applied intelligence of the designer. In Mr. Hardy's case
that would mean you are purchasing the effects of Wisdom.

--
ha

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Analogeezer wrote:

> Hell I remember the first time I saw an article about the M-1, I
> thought "why would anybody buy a separate mic pre when you already
> have them in a console".

> The guy was pretty ahead of his time if you ask me...

Hell, John's still a head of his time.

--
ha

[John L Rice]

"Kato Jenkina" > wrote in message
om...
> > > John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> > > of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> > > Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> > > after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
>
> Also note that Hardy preamps use *two* Jensen transformers - one input
> and one output - and as you've already discovered, Jensen transformers
> are *expensive.*


Actually the output transformer is optional so someone could get an M-1
without the output transformers and save over $100 per channel. I got mine
with all the options though. :-)

John L Rice

[John LeBlanc]

"EggHd" > wrote in message
...
> << and of course a little profit so the guy can eat. >>
>
> That would be part of overhead. Profit would be making overhead and having
> money left over.

Not in my neck of the woods. "Overhead" is other people's salaries; "profit" is
my salary.

John

[John Hardy]

My heartfelt thanks to everyone who had such generous
compliments about my products. I am grateful. I would say
more, but I have to go fix the wave solder machine again.
Add that to the list. Thank you.
--
John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

[Rob Reedijk]

chris wollard > wrote:
> I have only been a lurker here for the longest time, but endless
> reading here has done me better than I could ever imagine. I am
> considering my first "pro" level mic preamp and am leaning towards the
> John Hardy M-1 "personal." But before I drop a $1000 on one channel
> of preamp, I'd like to know where the money is really going. The
> Jensen transformer in the M-1 is $100, the 990 op-amp is $50. So
> after that $150, where is the rest of all that money_physically_ going
> in that preamp? Is it logical to think there is really only about $250
> worth of parts inside one those? Is that about normal for all high-end
> mic pres? (Great River, Millennia, etc?) That being said, is there
> any pre where I can spend maybe, say, $500 on $250 worth of parts?
> Thanks--

I think (John, please correct me if I am wrong) you can actually just buy
the cards yourself---with the circuitry of one channel including the
990 for a pretty reasonable price. And then if you want to try to save
money, you can attempt to put it together yourself. You still have to
get hold of the input transformer and build a power supply.

You can always find some piece of garbage like a used ART compressor
remove the guts and attempt to build M-1 preamps into it. This way
you already have the chassis and connectors. You might even be able
to cannibalize part of the power supply.

Of course, it likely won't be as good, unless you are very good at building
a proper power supply. Plus, forget about installing the meters.

I think Great River also sells just their preamp cards.

I always thought that this could be a neat type of project for someone who
had some rack gear with a really good PS built into it that had similar
specs to what the M-1 or Great River needs.

Okay John, now tell me why I am wrong.

Rob R.

[John Hardy]

Rob;

> I think (John, please correct me if I am wrong) you can
actually just buy
> the cards yourself---with the circuitry of one channel including the
> 990 for a pretty reasonable price. And then if you want to try to save
> money, you can attempt to put it together yourself. You still have to
> get hold of the input transformer and build a power supply.
>
> You can always find some piece of garbage like a used ART compressor
> remove the guts and attempt to build M-1 preamps into it. This way
> you already have the chassis and connectors. You might even be able
> to cannibalize part of the power supply.
>
> Of course, it likely won't be as good, unless you are very good at building
> a proper power supply. Plus, forget about installing the meters.
>
> I think Great River also sells just their preamp cards.
>
> I always thought that this could be a neat type of project for someone who
> had some rack gear with a really good PS built into it that had similar
> specs to what the M-1 or Great River needs.
>
> Okay John, now tell me why I am wrong.

I think this would be much more trouble than it would be
worth. Yes, you can get one or more basic channels of the
mic preamp cards, either the MPC-1 (for the M-1) or the
MPC-500C (for MCI 500C consoles), MPC-600 (for MCI 600
consoles) or MPC-3000 (for Sony MXP-3000 consoles) and put
them into some type of cannibalized box. But the power
supplies would be wrong, etc.

Prior to the introduction of the M-1 in 1987, quite a few
people bought MPC-500C or MPC-600 cards and built there own
boxes and supplies - whatever it took to end up with a
superior outboard mic preamp. But the mainframe for the M-1
is only $525, and all the details are completely worked out.
I know there is always the personal satisfaction of doing
something yourself, but at $525, why bother? Life is short.
Just buy the frame (and mic preamp cards) and get on with
it. Thanks.
--
John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

[John Hardy]

I meant to say "built THEIR own..." (not "there" own).
--
John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

[Bryson]

They the same to me.



John Hardy wrote:
> I meant to say "built THEIR own..." (not "there" own).

[Roger W. Norman]

"John Hardy" > wrote in message
news:7P%sb.145476$275.449353@attbi_s53...
> My heartfelt thanks to everyone who had such generous
> compliments about my products. I am grateful. I would say
> more, but I have to go fix the wave solder machine again.
> Add that to the list. Thank you.

When you're finished that can you come over and fix my dishwasher.
Something about hearing arcing and then the machine stopped! <g>

But I'll throw my compliments to John's products, too. First thing that
showed me what an excellent mic pre was, and continues to show me that it's
a fine piece of equipment as others continue to come out and play catchup.

Alas, I'm still looking forward to a two channel purchase. Sorry about that
John. One of these days! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




> --
> John Hardy
> The John Hardy Co.
> www.johnhardyco.com

[Roger W. Norman]

"John LeBlanc" > wrote in message
...
> Not in my neck of the woods. "Overhead" is other people's salaries;
"profit" is
> my salary.

You know better than that. As an employer, if you have other salaries to
worry about, you still either pay yourself a set fee (i.e. you're an
employee of the corporation) or you get whatever's left over, so in the
latter scenario, there's never any profit, just a different lifestyle! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.

[Roger W. Norman]

"P Stamler" > wrote in message
...
> Typically the total parts cost of a piece of audio gear is about 1/8 of
the
> retail price. The rest is all the other stuff people have been talking
about:
> labor costs, overhead for the factory (rent, insurance, heating, etc.
etc.),
> shipping, taxes, and of course a little profit so the guy can eat.
Probably
> Hardy's parts cost is a bit higher than 1/8 as he's relatively small, but
> that's the right order of magnitude.

One thing you have to admit, John makes quality for less because he's not
spending major amounts of marketing money and developing a large network of
distribution because that starts to eat into profit on his end. But the
neat thing is that after all this time, John's still making a quality
product that simply is one of the elite, and not a contender, and that he
still does it for quite a bit less than the top echelon pay for their mic
pre channels.

Of course, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't have a number of pres
available so that certain sounds can be achieved and that's just all part of
being an engineer who has the knowledge to select rather than just use. But
again, for the price there's absolutely no better product out there. When
talking about hearing exactly what's being produced, I give it both thumbs
and both big toes up! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




> Actually he's *not* spending $250 on parts, that's just what you would
spend on
> them. He's paying somewhat less, because he's buying wholesale.
>>
> Like everyone else has said, it's not such a bad deal. You want a better
deal,
> build something yourself; get the Great River boards, or do something like
the
> preamps I've published, or find schematics on the net. It's called sweat
> equity, and typically you can get about $2000 worth of value for $1000 or
so if
> you know what you're doing, and if you have more time than money.
>
> Otherwise, Hardy's preamps offer excellent value for money.
>
> Peace,
> Paul

[Roger W. Norman]

"EggHd" > wrote in message
...
> That would be part of overhead. Profit would be making overhead and
having
> money left over.

How about in a limited partnership when the only thing is drawing from
profit, thus generally leaving no profit. You're too used to the corporate
environment, although I'm not saying you're wrong. Just different
circumstances. A corporation pays each employee while a limited partnership
can easily be drawing from profit to offset investment without tax
penalties. You'd get hit at the end of the year, but it's not even a
quarterly estimate payment. Were I to have done what my tax accountant told
me, I'd probably still be swimming in a little money, but I wouldn't take
money from company profit to pay for my wife's or my vehicle travel, lease
expenses, (after all, I would be leasing the vehicle to the company and it
would pay me to do so), office space, etc. Even now my studio has exceeded
one third of my living space, what with equipment storage and location
recording equipment. Not to mention phone, computer access, trade mags, and
other things that could/should be technically picked up by the company in a
limited partnership.

However, no matter what way you want to do it, business math says that
Assets - Liabilities = Profit. No matter what one does after the fact or
even before changes that. Of course, for anyone that wants me to, for a
small price, I'll produce my categories for both Assets and Liabilities
which may help someone if they don't know the difference or how to do
business accounting. But you have to be committed to want to do it. I've
run multi-million dollar businesses before as the retail director, and
opened some 26 different stores with 5 different companies.

The only reason I bring this up is that it's darned expensive to buy studio
accounting type software, but a few simple pages in Excel or some other
spreadsheet can do a lot for a good basic system of accounts. Plug in the
figures and it's a nice database to have for tax purposes.

I'm not talking about an entire studio based system here, with equipment
amoritization and other tax related offsets, I'm just talking about the hows
and whys of doing a basic system of accounts, charges, payments, summations,
etc., from a couple of basic entry pages. So if anybody wants to ask some
questions, you know where to find me.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> "I know enough to know I don't know enough"

[[email protected]]

John Hardy > wrote in message news:<Rl9tb.151565$ao4.483149@attbi_s51>...
> I meant to say "built THEIR own..." (not "there" own).

I've read through this whole thread and found that most of the
talk is about parts/buisiness costs and not much emphasis on circuit
design or just design in general. Buying a Jensen transformer and a
good op amp and throwing it in a box doesn't make a great sounding
preamp. It takes a lot of time, research, and experimentation to come
up with a great electronic circuit for musical purposes. This market
of esoteric music equiptment is tough to design for. People want
things to sound "big" and "harmonically complex" and have "air". These
things are not easily quantified like it is in other electronic
markets. It takes a lot of work to design a circuit that is musical
without copying an existing design. A lot of what makes a circuit
sound musical isn't even clearly understood; ie. extending the
frequency response past 20k, it's pretty theoretical. And the rewards
are so little that you would have to be either crazy or just very
passionate about what you do to pursue a career in high-end musical
electronics.
There's simple market economics as well. If it's generally agreed
that #1 preamp sounds better than #2 preamp, then #1 preamp is more
dear, and worth more. Factor in forces of supply and demand. Neve
modules go up in value as Studer tape machines lose value. Factor in
volume. It should be obvious that John Hardy sells less volume than
Peavey or Behringer and as a result John Hardy requires less materials
and pays more for those materials.
In the big picture this is no different than any other market.
Even if John Hardy was getting rich making preamps, what would be
wrong with that?

Brendan Flaherty