AD/DA, Mics, Mic Pres - where should the money go??

[Brian Huether]

This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my home,
recording my guitar.

I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my mic
collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my end
results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8 DS,
or an Apogess PSX100?

thanks,

brian

[Tommy B]

Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?

Tom
"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
home,
> recording my guitar.
>
> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
mic
> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
end
> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
DS,
> or an Apogess PSX100?
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
>
>

[Mike Turk]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
home,
> recording my guitar.
>
> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
mic
> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
end
> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
DS,
> or an Apogess PSX100?
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
>
>
Doesn't matter. I have got excellent results even with blackface ADAT
converters.

-mike

[George Gleason]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
home,
> recording my guitar.
>
> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
mic
> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
end
> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
DS,
> or an Apogess PSX100?
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
>
I tghink you money is best spent on esopteric directional cables, green
markers for your cd's and anything by alesis
:-)
George

[Brian Huether]

Wow - what an informative reply.

"George Gleason" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Brian Huether" > wrote in message
> ...
> > This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
> home,
> > recording my guitar.
> >
> > I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> > Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
> mic
> > collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
> end
> > results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
> DS,
> > or an Apogess PSX100?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > brian
> >
> I tghink you money is best spent on esopteric directional cables, green
> markers for your cd's and anything by alesis
> :-)
> George
>
>

[Arny Krueger]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message


> Wow - what an informative reply.

It is.

My translation from Gleasonese is that neither converters, pres or mics
would be the best investment, given what the writer already has on on hand.
If he can't do it with what he's got, he should probably spend his money on
green pens or nuclear-tipped mic cables, or some such.

I think the guy should go out and make a some more recordings and listen to
some good critiques of them. There's a lot more to recording than mics,
pres, and converters. It's possible that a better mic stand and knowing how
to position it would do more for him.

[John L Rice]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message
...
> This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
home,
> recording my guitar.
>
> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
mic
> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
end
> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
DS,
> or an Apogess PSX100?
>
> thanks,
>
> brian
>


I'd put the money into microphones, mic pres, monitors and room treatments
( no particular order ) before worrying about converters too much.

Best of luck!

John L Rice

[George Gleason]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Brian Huether" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Wow - what an informative reply.
>
> It is.
>
> My translation from Gleasonese is that neither converters, pres or mics
> would be the best investment, given what the writer already has on on
hand.
> If he can't do it with what he's got, he should probably spend his money
on
> green pens or nuclear-tipped mic cables, or some such.
>
> I think the guy should go out and make a some more recordings and listen
to
> some good critiques of them. There's a lot more to recording than mics,
> pres, and converters. It's possible that a better mic stand and knowing
how
> to position it would do more for him.
>
Arny, I don't remember you taking my master class on internet
scarasm/humor(depending on your POV
but excellent job!!!!
george

[Mondoslug1]

Brian wrote:

>This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
>home,
>> recording my guitar.
>>
>> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
>> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
>mic
>> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
>end
>> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
>DS,
>> or an Apogess PSX100?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> brian

I'd think the Multiface would be mighty fine.
I'm recording(not mixing)with a Digi 001 with it's stock converters and some
external pres and doing guitars. I like the results pretty well & for cranking
electrics it might be hard to telll a difference using a different
converter....or not.

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Brian Huether wrote:

> This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my home,
> recording my guitar.

> I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my mic
> collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my end
> results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8 DS,
> or an Apogess PSX100?

What are you using now? The whole chain, mics through to monitors,
please.

--
ha

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "Brian Huether"
> wrote:
>This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my home,
>recording my guitar.
>
>I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
>Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my mic
>collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my end
>results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8 DS,
>or an Apogess PSX100?
>
>thanks,
>
>brian


Brian,

We don't know what you have in your mic or preamp collection so making any
suggestions is difficult.

There are many fine pieces of gear out there. I like Schoeps, AT, Neumann,
AKGs and Gefells. These mics work very well with my GML, Aphex1100 and
Millennia STT-1 preamps.

Mics I like that have recently come out are the Audio Technica AE5400 and
5100 and the Gefell M294, M 295, M 296.

Ain't nothing wrong with an SM57 or SM58. Shure took top honors with the SM
86 at the TEC awards this year.

The combination of GML and ADI-8DS are audibly better than the stock pres
and A/D conversion in a Digi 001. At the cost, they ought to be.

I think EVERYTHING can make a difference. The mic/premap combination is,
perhaps, the most often overlooked issue of all.

I have a lot of mic and pre reviews on my site. Take a peek in the Archives.

Regards,

Ty Ford



**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[LeBaron & Alrich]

John L Rice > wrote:

> I'd put the money into microphones, mic pres, monitors and room treatments
> ( no particular order ) before worrying about converters too much.

I'll prioritize. Firstly, get the preamp(s), because then at least
whatever is going to storage has a chance. Secondly, get the monitors
because then one might tell if what went into the mic(s) was worth
storing, and maybe also come to understand more about one's recording
and monitoring environment.

If the room's a mess, treat it, and then get some better mics, _if you
need them_.

--
ha

[Brian Huether]

The chain now is

me -> Carvin dc127 guitar->Diezel VH4S guitar tube amp head -> Genz Benz G
Flex 2x12 -> sm57 and beta57a -> Mackie 1402 -> delta1010

I don't think the room is well acoustically, but I thought close mic"ing
would negate that to some extent?

-brian


"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Huether wrote:
>
> > This continues my quest to get pro or near pro sounding results in my
home,
> > recording my guitar.
>
> > I am looking to get a Neve 1272 and/or a Great River, and am adding a
> > Sennheiser md421, a studio projects c1, and possibly a royer r121 to my
mic
> > collection. The question then, is this: Does anyone seriously believe my
end
> > results will differ much whether I use an RME Multiface, or an RME ADI 8
DS,
> > or an Apogess PSX100?
>
> What are you using now? The whole chain, mics through to monitors,
> please.
>
> --
> ha

[Mike Rivers]

In article . net> writes:

> Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
> talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?

Never say "never." People use all sorts of things for recording,
whether they were meant for the purpose or not. Haven't you ever
recorded a lead vocal on the talkback mic?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Arny Krueger]

"Brian Huether" > wrote in message

> The chain now is
>
> me -> Carvin dc127 guitar->Diezel VH4S guitar tube amp head -> Genz
> Benz G Flex 2x12 -> sm57 and beta57a -> Mackie 1402 -> delta1010
>
> I don't think the room is well acoustically, but I thought close
> mic"ing would negate that to some extent?

IME, "to some extent", but rarely "enough".

The degree to which the room I record in, sneaks in to close-miced SM57s &
SM58s always amazes me.

I wonder what popularly-priced vocal/instrumental mics have appreciably
tighter patterns.

[WillStG]

>"Tommy B"

>Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
>talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?

Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that has a V76
for it's talkback micpre.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[umbriaco]

in article , WillStG at
wrote on 10/30/03 4:22 PM:

>> "Tommy B"
>
>> Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
>> talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?
>
> Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that has a V76
> for it's talkback micpre.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
>

[umbriaco]

in article . net, Tommy B at
wrote on 10/30/03 8:31 AM:

> Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
> talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?

A Neve 1272 is a line amp.
It works as a mic pre up to around 45 dB of gain.
After that it begins to get ratty & noisy
Fine for close vocal, amp and drum mics.

The 1290 is the mic pre module.

[Chris Del Faro]

(Ty Ford) wrote in message >...
> I think EVERYTHING can make a difference. The mic/premap combination is,
> perhaps, the most often overlooked issue of all.

Ty (and anyone else), I presently believe that it's more a matter of weighted
"cumulative" effect of the each step in the signal chain, rather than
"the chain is only as strong as the weakest link".
(belief of latter quote is certainly music to a gear manufacturer's ears! <g>)

Thoughts?

Chris

[Kurt Albershardt]

Chris Del Faro wrote:

> (Ty Ford) wrote in message >...
>
>> I think EVERYTHING can make a difference. The mic/premap combination is,
>> perhaps, the most often overlooked issue of all.
>
>
> Ty (and anyone else), I presently believe that it's more a matter of weighted
> "cumulative" effect of the each step in the signal chain, rather than
> "the chain is only as strong as the weakest link".

artist/performance -> instrument -> room -> mic -> preamp -> A/D

Assuming nothing in the chain is obviously broken or of truly foul quality:

Stuff on the left matters more as a rule, and anything to the right of
something else can only hope at its very best to not lose what came to
it from the stuff on the left.

[Dan]

I think I remember from my Navy days 20 years ago in Italy that
Umbriaco means drunk?

d


umbriaco > wrote in message >...
> in article . net, Tommy B at
> wrote on 10/30/03 8:31 AM:
>
> > Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for the
> > talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?
>
> A Neve 1272 is a line amp.
> It works as a mic pre up to around 45 dB of gain.
> After that it begins to get ratty & noisy
> Fine for close vocal, amp and drum mics.
>
> The 1290 is the mic pre module.

[John L Rice]

"LeBaron & Alrich" > wrote in message
.. .
> John L Rice > wrote:
>
> > I'd put the money into microphones, mic pres, monitors and room
treatments
> > ( no particular order ) before worrying about converters too much.
>
> I'll prioritize. Firstly, get the preamp(s), because then at least
> whatever is going to storage has a chance. Secondly, get the monitors
> because then one might tell if what went into the mic(s) was worth
> storing, and maybe also come to understand more about one's recording
> and monitoring environment.
>
> If the room's a mess, treat it, and then get some better mics, _if you
> need them_.
>
> --
> ha

Thanks Hank, I was going to be late for work and . . . . I don't know how I
would prioritize things anyway. I just like . . . tend to get a whole bunch
of stuff and figure it all out later. ( I'm a manufacture's wet dream . . )

John L Rice

[Tommy B]

I'll buy "Never say never", but do you think that was the intended use of
the designer? No I've never recorded a vocal on the talk-back mic, which I'm
sure has been done, nor have I shoved a mic up my butt and beat my belly,
which I know has been done. Maybe I should have said, "everyday useage".
Tom



"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1067531308k@trad...
>
> In article . net>
writes:
>
> > Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for
the
> > talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?
>
> Never say "never." People use all sorts of things for recording,
> whether they were meant for the purpose or not. Haven't you ever
> recorded a lead vocal on the talkback mic?
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Tommy B]

That's nice, but it has nothing to do with my question!
Your listening to O'Riley much too much. ;-)
Tom


"WillStG" > wrote in message
...
> >"Tommy B"
>
> >Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for
the
> >talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?
>
> Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that has
a V76
> for it's talkback micpre.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
>

[Tommy B]

And what Neve desk was it used on for this purpose?
Tom

"umbriaco" > wrote in message
...
> in article . net, Tommy B
at
> wrote on 10/30/03 8:31 AM:
>
> > Does anyone want to conform that a Neve 1272 was only used as a pre for
the
> > talk-back mic on Neve desks, and never intended to be used in recording?
>
> A Neve 1272 is a line amp.
> It works as a mic pre up to around 45 dB of gain.
> After that it begins to get ratty & noisy
> Fine for close vocal, amp and drum mics.
>
> The 1290 is the mic pre module.
>

[HenryShap]

What a waste of a v76

> Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that has
>a V76
>for it's talkback micpre.

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(Chris Del Faro) wrote:
(Ty Ford) wrote in message
>...
>> I think EVERYTHING can make a difference. The mic/premap combination is,
>> perhaps, the most often overlooked issue of all.
>
>Ty (and anyone else), I presently believe that it's more a matter of weighted
>"cumulative" effect of the each step in the signal chain, rather than
>"the chain is only as strong as the weakest link".
>(belief of latter quote is certainly music to a gear manufacturer's ears! <g>)
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Chris

Right. Oh, then there's mic placement, mic placement and, of course mic
placement. Don't forget TALENT on the part of the performers and don't
forget to tune the instruments and check tuning regularly.

I think Hank asked for a complete line up from mics to monitors. Sucky
monitors will never let you mix correctly.

It's really a hopeless downward spiral of popverty that one can never really
escape. Turn back before it's too late! (as if you could)


Regards,

Ty Ford

**Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[WillStG]

>"Tommy B"

>>"WillStG" > wrote
>> Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that has a
V76
for it's talkback micpre. >>

>That's nice, but it has nothing to do with my question! Your listening to
O'Riley much too much. ;-) <

Sure it does Tommy. Just read the comment like a Mix Magazine review,
read between the lines... Just because it was used as a talkback micpre doesn't
mean it's crap does it?

;).>

But ok, Geoff Tanner did say the 1272 was only used by Neve as a line amp
in mix buss amplification and as a talkback micpre, and that designs that use
it to build a micpre are other people's designs and not Neve's approach. But he
also said that up to about 40db of gain the 1272 will sound like a 1073.
However beyond that point the B284 in the 1073 will kick in to add gain so
above 40db they don't sound much alike.

The Telefunken/TAB V672's as universal amps/micpres are generally a lot
better I think, Class A, discreet, big transformers, a lot more gain, and some
of them I have racked up as micpres have measured pretty flat from 20Hz-18.5k
when I ran tone through them...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Tommy B]

The V76 is a good mic-pre, which is why,as someone said, "what a waste"
unless there is a way to use it for more than the talk-back. ;-)
I'm not an expert by any means, but getting a 1272 would seem limiting for
use as an all around mic-pre. That's why I didn't think it was a good
choice.
Tom






"WillStG" > wrote in message
...
> >"Tommy B"
>
> >>"WillStG" > wrote
> >> Purple Audio has a vintage all-Tube Telefunken desk for sale that
has a
> V76
> for it's talkback micpre. >>
>
> >That's nice, but it has nothing to do with my question! Your listening to
> O'Riley much too much. ;-) <
>
> Sure it does Tommy. Just read the comment like a Mix Magazine
review,
> read between the lines... Just because it was used as a talkback micpre
doesn't
> mean it's crap does it?
>
> ;).>
>
> But ok, Geoff Tanner did say the 1272 was only used by Neve as a line
amp
> in mix buss amplification and as a talkback micpre, and that designs that
use
> it to build a micpre are other people's designs and not Neve's approach.
But he
> also said that up to about 40db of gain the 1272 will sound like a 1073.
> However beyond that point the B284 in the 1073 will kick in to add gain so
> above 40db they don't sound much alike.
>
> The Telefunken/TAB V672's as universal amps/micpres are generally a
lot
> better I think, Class A, discreet, big transformers, a lot more gain, and
some
> of them I have racked up as micpres have measured pretty flat from
20Hz-18.5k
> when I ran tone through them...
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
>

[Chris Del Faro]

> (Ty Ford) wrote in message
>

> It's really a hopeless downward spiral of popverty that one can never really
> escape. Turn back before it's too late! (as if you could)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
> **Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address.
> Please remove it if you want to email me directly.
> For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
> click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

Ty, I like the new coining of the word "popverty". Don't ask MC Hammer
though!
Am planning for a Barbershop show next Spring, which will have a
30's/40's Radio Show theme. We left in the script the unintentional,
"The Martini's have landed", for the "War of the Worlds" spoof
segment. <g>

Thanks guys for the pro perspective BTW.

Chris

[Chris Del Faro]

Please excuse the (unintentional) connotation of my last post.
"Pro perspective" is better said to also include others, like Mike
Rivers, et al, who've also contributed to this thread, in addition to
Ty and Kurt.

In any case, wish everyone a great Halloween, and try not to eat TOO
much candy! (what's the scariest DVD under $20 <g>)

Chris

[White Swan]

If you are, in fact, getting a ribbon mic, then unless you are getting
the R122 (active) I think the Great River preamp would be a better
choice than the 1272. The impedence switch on the GR should help with
the low output of the ribbon mic.

I use a 1272 all the time, but mostly on close mics on drums, where
getting lots of gain is harldy an issue. It works just fine for that.