Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

[Linda Masterson]

Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
> keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>
> Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
> quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
> understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
> thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
> Switchcraft connectors ;-)
>
> Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
> wires (duh).
>
> http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm
>
>


The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.

I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out to
the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into the
L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input channel.

If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each of
the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins 1 and 3.

Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.

You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.

Good luck.

geoff

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
> On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>> Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
>> keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>>
>> Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
>> star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
>> please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
>> of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
>> using Switchcraft connectors ;-)
>>
>> Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
>> wires (duh).
>>
>> http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm
>>
>>
>
>
> The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
> outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.
>
> I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out to
> the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
> 'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into the
> L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input channel.
>
> If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each of
> the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins 1
> and 3.
>
> Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
> end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
> obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
> mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.
>
> You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
> jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.
>
> Good luck.
>
> geoff

In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.

geoff

[Trevor]

On 7/02/2018 12:59 PM, Geoff wrote:
> On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
>> On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>>> Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
>>> keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>>>
>>> Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
>>> star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
>>> please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
>>> of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
>>> using Switchcraft connectors ;-)
>>>
>>> Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has
>>> more wires (duh).
>>>
>>> http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
>> outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.
>>
>> I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out
>> to the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
>> 'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into
>> the L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input
>> channel.
>>
>> If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each
>> of the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins
>> 1 and 3.
>>
>> Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
>> end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
>> obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
>> mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.
>>
>> You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
>> jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>
> In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.


Personally I'd *never* wire unbalanced to XLR. Guaranteed to blow up
your phantom power someday. If the mixer is close, use a stereo phone
plug to L/R mono plugs, and use a stereo line input. If not then you
need a DI (or 2) as well for XLR inputs.

Trevor.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

----------------------

> Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
> keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>
> Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
> quad L-4E6S.

** As others have said, stereo headphone jacks are not TRS balanced. The signals are a "stereo pair", at a level that requires a line input.

You need an adaptor lead like the one in fig 10, made using regular twisted pair mic cable long enough to reach easily to the mixer.

At the twin plug end, sneak one signal PLUS a short ground wire out the back of one mono plug to go to the other.

Twist the wires and sleeve them with plastic tube before fitting into the plug.


> http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 3:57 PM, Trevor wrote:
> On 7/02/2018 12:59 PM, Geoff wrote:
>> On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
>>> On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>>>> Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
>>>> keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>>>>
>>>> Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
>>>> star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
>>>> please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
>>>> of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
>>>> using Switchcraft connectors ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has
>>>> more wires (duh).
>>>>
>>>> http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools/Wiring%20diagrams.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
>>> outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.
>>>
>>> I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out
>>> to the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack
>>> mono 'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still
>>> into the L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo
>>> input channel.
>>>
>>> If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each
>>> of the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR
>>> pins 1 and 3.
>>>
>>> Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
>>> end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
>>> obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
>>> mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.
>>>
>>> You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
>>> jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>
>> In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.
>
>
> Personally I'd *never* wire unbalanced to XLR. Guaranteed to blow up
> your phantom power someday. If the mixer is close, use a stereo phone
> plug to L/R mono plugs, and use a stereo line input. If not then you
> need a DI (or 2) as well for XLR inputs.
>
> Trevor.
>
>
>


Yeah 48VDC (or any VDC for that matter) doesn't do well into keyboard
headphone outputs, or for the alternative likely use for the cable on
iPod/laptop/MP3-player outputs.


geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson > wrote:
>Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
>keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

It's not balanced. It's a TRS jack, but it's not balanced.

>Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
>quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
>understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
>thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
>Switchcraft connectors ;-)

That's fine. I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
your connection is not balanced.

If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.

If the keyboard puts out stereo and you really want to be 100000% sure it will work the first time....wire 1000 Ohms in series with each mono 1/4" plugs, but it will "probably work without that.

Or if the keyboard is putting out mono, just connect one mono plug and tape up the other one. Or just use a standard 1/4" shielded cable instead of an insert cable. (not a speaker cable)

The ground lift switch on the DI box can be used to prevent ground loop problems.

The DI box will make it very safe to connect to a mixer mic input.

Mark

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:
>
> None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.
>
> I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
>
>
> Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
> Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.
>
> Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.
>


But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.

Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?

geoff

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 2:17:37 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
> On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:
> >
> > None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.
> >
> > I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
> >
> >
> > Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
> > Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.
> >
> > Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.
> >
>
>
> But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.
>
> Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
> though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.
>
> Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?
>
> geoff

Yes, my suggestion sums the L+R to a single mono input.
or uses only L or R into a mono input channel.
Unless I misunderstood you, we are in agreement.

OP, did you want to feed a true stereo signal to the mixer or mono?

mark

[Trevor]

On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
> On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:
>>
>> None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.
>>
>> I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
>> wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
>>
>>
>> Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
>> Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.
>>
>> Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.
>>
>
>
> But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.

Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you need
a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.


>
> Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
> though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.
>
> Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?


Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use one
XLR in.

Trevor.

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 1:20 PM, Trevor wrote:
> On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
>> On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>> None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.
>>>
>>> I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
>>> wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
>>> Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.
>>>
>>> Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.
>>>
>>
>>
>> But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input
>> channel.
>
> Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you need
> a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.
>
>
>>
>> Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
>> though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
>> channels.
>>
>> Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?
>
>
> Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
> hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
> If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use one
> XLR in.
>
> Trevor.
>
>
>


..... and match on each channel strip gain, EQ, Aux/Monitor, insert
device, etc settings pretty closely.

geoff

[Linda Masterson]

Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.

>>>"The headphone output is *not* balanced."

Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.

I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

Like these:

http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/

https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

wrote:

-------------------------
>
> None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.
>

** Yeah right, the OP needs a DI box like a fish needs a bicycle.


> I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired
> to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
>
>
> Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
> Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.


** Pure idiocy.

The two 1/4 jacks on the input of a DI are wired in parallel - which allows an instrument feeding a DI to continue on to an amplifier etc.

>
> If the keyboard puts out stereo and you really want to be 100000% sure
> it will work the first time....wire 1000 Ohms in series with each mono
> 1/4" plugs, but it will "probably work without that.
>

** You can bet the HP signal is stereo and it will NOT work with a DI.


( rest of this pile of drivel snipped)



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
> the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
> Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.
>
> >>>"The headphone output is *not* balanced."
>
> Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.
>
> I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
> into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.
>
> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
> ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
> noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
> and no preamp gain was used.
>
> I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
> hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.
>
> Like these:
>
> http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/
>
> https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5
>
> I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
> and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
> all I have and I have a bunch of it.
>
> I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
>
> http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61
>
>
>

Possibly many of the claimed benefits are somewhat inflated by the
marketing department, and many audible differences are often
psychologically-suggestive rather than real, "bright ringing
characteristics" and suchlike ...

Though I find Canare good - I have a bunch - I would not get fixated on
the brand (apart from having the reel that you do have !) there are many
(most ?) other cable brands that are fine. And some that aren't, usually
for physical-handling and durability issues.

ather than

geoff

[Trevor]

On 8/02/2018 12:11 PM, Geoff wrote:
> On 8/02/2018 1:20 PM, Trevor wrote:
>> On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
>>> On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>> None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.
>>>>
>>>> I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
>>>> wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.
>>>>
>>>> Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
>>>> Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.
>>>>
>>>> Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.
>>>
>>> But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input
>>> channel.
>>
>> Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you
>> need a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.
>>>
>>> Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
>>> though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
>>> channels.
>>>
>>> Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?
>>
>> Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
>> hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
>> If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use
>> one XLR in.
>
> .... and match on each channel strip gain, EQ, Aux/Monitor, insert
> device, etc settings pretty closely.


Yep, can't say I've ever had a problem just setting the knobs the same
on both channels. But if it's too hard, just use mono. And if you don't
need balanced, DON'T use XLR's in the first place!

Trevor.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Geoff wrote:

-------------

From the OP:
> >
> > I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
> >
> > http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61
> >
>
>
> Possibly many of the claimed benefits are somewhat inflated by the
> marketing department, and many audible differences are often
> psychologically-suggestive rather than real, "bright ringing
> characteristics" and suchlike ...
>

** That is probably one characteristic that is quite real.

Canare GS-6 is a low noise & low capacitance guitar cable, so is optimised to work with unbalanced HIGH impedance pickups as fitted to most guitars.

The inductance of guitar PU resonates with the cable capacitance to produce a very audible peak in the upper treble range - and the less the capacitance the higher the peak frequency.


> Though I find Canare good - I have a bunch - I would not get fixated on
> the brand (apart from having the reel that you do have !) there are many
> (most ?) other cable brands that are fine. And some that aren't, usually
> for physical-handling and durability issues.
>

** Yep, the Canare uses thicker than usual conductors ( so is OK used as speaker to amp lead) and is very tough.

Some guitar cables, though having low noise and capacitance, are too stretchy causing the centre conductor to break internally the first time they get a hard yank.


..... Phil

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 08-02-2018 02:09, Geoff wrote:

>>> Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
>>> though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
>>> channels.

Modifying a DI box to have reduced channel separation comes to mind as
constituting "something clever".

> That's what I meant about wanting to do something 'clever'.

> Kind of depends on the purpose. If for recording, especially into a DAW,
> then certainly record in stereo, preferably to one stereo track. Then
> any channel splitting and tricky panning can be easily done afterwards.

> If for live performance, then I'd go the Mono route. Unless happy to
> have a keyboard spanning the whole sound-stage. Alternative is the
> fiddly effort required to pan across just a specific narrower spread,
> using two mixer channels.

Narrower stereo could be very useful because it allows the keyboards
internal reverb to perceptually fill the room.

> However a keyboard with a TRS output only likely will not have a mono
> output or doscrete channels option available. With separate L and R out
> jacks there is usually L/Mono and R, with the summed Mono function of
> the L jack being internally defeated (to give discrete L and R) when the
> R jack is inserted.

> geoff

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
> ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
> noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
> and no preamp gain was used.

There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
pickup from electromagnetic fields.

> I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
> and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
> all I have and I have a bunch of it.

You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
into mic inputs on the mixer.

For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
cable here) between the direct box and mixer.

I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
headphone output is a mini jack.

https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables

> I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
> http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61

You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.




--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[sTeeVee]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:09:33 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Linda Masterson > wrote:
> >Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
> >keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?
>
> It's not balanced. It's a TRS jack, but it's not balanced.
>
> >Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
> >quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
> >understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
> >thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
> >Switchcraft connectors ;-)
>
> That's fine. I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
> conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
> your connection is not balanced.
>
> If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
> would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
> tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
> on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
> the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I would also suggest tying the two outputs together with nominal buildout resistors - perhaps 600 ohms or so. This will help cut down on intermodulation distortion, to the extent that it would manifest, depending upon the output impedence of the device. This, however may not be knowable without disassembly and direct observation. Therefore, erring on the side of caution and use the resistors might be the way to go. You can easily build this tiny network into the connector plug on the far side (away from the instrument) esp. if you are using a switchcraft 280 or similar TS connector with a sturdy metal handle. A touch of shrink tubing will also help in your assembly. DON'T use the internal cable clamp over the resistor however! Good luck!

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 8:17:09 AM UTC-5, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>
> > I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
> > ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
> > noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
> > and no preamp gain was used.
>
> There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
> one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
> mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
> pickup from electromagnetic fields.
>
> > I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
> > and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
> > all I have and I have a bunch of it.
>
> You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
> headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
> particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
> gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
> into mic inputs on the mixer.
>
> For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
> direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
> cable here) between the direct box and mixer.
>
> I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
> the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
> one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
> with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
> TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
> even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
> headphone output is a mini jack.
>
> https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables
>
> > I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
> > http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61
>
> You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
> problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
> problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
> will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
> something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.
>

That's what I'm thinkin'. I use one of these between my Mac headphone output and my Digidesign DIGI 003R aux input. It cleaned up a lot of the noise.
https://bhpho.to/2EafbDz

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson > wrote:
>I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
>ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
>noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
>and no preamp gain was used.

Lift pin 1 on the XLR ends. Does the noise go away? You can use a
ground lift adaptor or you can modify the cable.

>I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
>hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

The reason why people use DI boxes on stage is that they contain
transformers that allow you to break ground connections with impunity.
You don't get QUITE as good an ability to do this just with an XLR input
that is electronically balanced, but it's not too bad.

It would help if you could show us what the actual wiring inside those
cables was.

>I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
>and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
>all I have and I have a bunch of it.

Why not the DI?

If you want some cheap RG-174, give me an address and I'll send you a few
feet. It costs me pennies.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>
>> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
>> ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
>> noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
>> and no preamp gain was used.
>
>There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
>one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
>mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
>pickup from electromagnetic fields.

BUT... only with balanced connections and only if properly wired.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/7/2018 6:09 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
> would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
> tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
> on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
> the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
> --scott


Thanks!

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 5:17 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>
>> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up
>> years ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR
>> but have noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was
>> cranked up and no preamp gain was used.
>

> There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
> one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
> mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
> pickup from electromagnetic fields.

May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
I have *zero* hum.

However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.

>> I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if
>> possible and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes
>> this cable is all I have and I have a bunch of it.
>
> You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
> headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
> particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
> gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
> into mic inputs on the mixer.

Thanks!

> For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
> direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
> cable here) between the direct box and mixer.
>
> I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
> the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
> one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
> with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
> TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
> even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
> headphone output is a mini jack.
>
> https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables

Yes, in my second post in this thread I showed two links to insert
cables that I have tried with no hum when cranked. I wanted to use my
left over star quad cable which I have a lot of to build a cable.

I have a brand new TRS Switchcraft connector and two Switchcraft TS
which I am trying to find a new home for using my star quad cable for
the Yamaha keyboard output which has a 1/4" stereo out only; consumer
grade keyboard but with good sampled sounds.

>> I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
>> http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61
>
> You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
> problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
> problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
> will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
> something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.

I wired all of my my *instrument cable* with mostly short runs as well
using star quad cable and that was done in the day. Canare did not sell
instrument cable IIRC at that time. Sure I could have used other cable
but like I said I bought a ton of this cable to begin with and am still
using it and it is not in every color of the rainbow which they make and
mine are all black except for these two blue Canare custom cables which
are both humming. Continuity tester checks out fine but having 1/4" inch
on both ends solves my hum problem because I checked with (brand) insert
cables.

Questions:

How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
actually understood? ;-)

Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 1:21 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Linda Masterson > wrote:
>> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
>> ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
>> noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
>> and no preamp gain was used.

> Lift pin 1 on the XLR ends. Does the noise go away? You can use a
> ground lift adaptor or you can modify the cable.

I already cut the 1/4 inch TRS connector off of both cables. :-(
I need to build another balanced cable and need the ends.

I just bought one from Markertek for the wiring job in question and I
have a bunch of TS in my possession.

>> I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
>> hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.
>
> The reason why people use DI boxes on stage is that they contain
> transformers that allow you to break ground connections with impunity.
> You don't get QUITE as good an ability to do this just with an XLR input
> that is electronically balanced, but it's not too bad.
>
> It would help if you could show us what the actual wiring inside those
> cables was.
>
>> I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
>> and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
>> all I have and I have a bunch of it.
>
> Why not the DI?

I would prefer no DIs in the studio and good ones can get expensive plus
it becomes an eyesore in my situation but thanks for asking Mike and
others just the same. :-)

> If you want some cheap RG-174, give me an address and I'll send you a few
> feet. It costs me pennies.
> --scott

Thanks a bunch but I can afford that cable. :-)

[Mike Rivers]

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:47:19 UTC-5, Linda Masterson wrote:

> How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
> actually understood? ;-)

Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield..

If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.

But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.

On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.

If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:

Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.

This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.

> Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
> cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
> signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.

Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.

If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.

[Linda Masterson[_2_]]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:09:33 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:


> I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
> conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
> your connection is not balanced.
>
> If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
> would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
> tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
> on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
> the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
> --scott

News server down posting via Google.

How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".

[Linda Masterson[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 3:43:05 PM UTC-8, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:47:19 UTC-5, Linda Masterson wrote:
>
> > How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
> > actually understood? ;-)
>
> Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield.
>
> If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.
>
> But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.
>
> On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.
>
> Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.
>
> If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:
>
> Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.
>
> This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.
>
> > Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
> > cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
> > signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.
>
> Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.
>
> If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.


Very well said Mike and I understood all of it. Thank you for your precious time and to all of you who have contributed to this thread.

Tomorrow I will fire up my Weller ;-)

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson > wrote:
>
>How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".

Tip on the TRS to center conductor of wire 1 to tip of TS #1.
Ring on the TRS to center conductor of wire 2 to tip of TS #1.
Sleeve on the TRS to both shields to sleeves of both TS #1 and TS #2.

BUT..... your hum problem is almost certainly caused by a ground loop and
will continue no matter how it's wired, unless you can find a way to lift
the ground connections between the instrument and the console. A DI can
make this foolproof but you can likely do it using your existing cable
with pin 1 lifted on the XLR ends so the ground floats.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Linda Masterson]

Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.

Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I was told you can even dictate into Google docs with mic and then copy
and paste.

Ta da! It works with a tad bit of editing. ;-)

[Trevor]

On 9/02/2018 12:17 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
> headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
> particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet.

Interesting figure you've chosen. Personally I'd never run that far
without going balanced. But then I'd always go balanced in any live PA
setup anyway. Frankly I can't even imagine bothering to make a 50 foot
unbalanced cable myself, even if it worked. Perhaps I could use XLR to
phone plug adapters if I was really desperate I guess.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 9/02/2018 1:11 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
> That's what I'm thinkin'. I use one of these between my Mac headphone
> output and my Digidesign DIGI 003R aux input. It cleaned up a lot of
> the noise. https://bhpho.to/2EafbDz
>

Yep these things are great for getting rid of ground loops. Have you
compared it to the much cheaper Behrenger version? There are much dearer
ones with really good transformers of course, but that doesn't look like
it would be one.

Trevor.

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 4:18 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Linda Masterson > wrote:
>>
>> How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".
>
> Tip on the TRS to center conductor of wire 1 to tip of TS #1.
> Ring on the TRS to center conductor of wire 2 to tip of TS #1.
> Sleeve on the TRS to both shields to sleeves of both TS #1 and TS #2.
>
> BUT..... your hum problem is almost certainly caused by a ground loop and
> will continue no matter how it's wired, unless you can find a way to lift
> the ground connections between the instrument and the console. A DI can
> make this foolproof but you can likely do it using your existing cable
> with pin 1 lifted on the XLR ends so the ground floats.
> --scott
>

Thanks Scott and very interesting. Please remember I am cranking the
gain and being ultra particular about noise which sounds like hum.

The Livewire interconnect cable helped considerably and was acceptable
to my ears but i was hoping to return it because it is too short and it
was the longest Guitar Center had for this situation.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Livewire/Essential-Interconnect-Y-Cable-1-4-TRS-Male-to-1-4-TS-Male.gc

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 4:44 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:

>>>A lot of digital pianos do not have a ground at all.
>>>They are either powered by a wall wart or a 2 pin mains connector.

Yes, this Yamaha has an inline wall wart switching adapter.

>>>The wall warts are often SMPS, which can inject all kinds of hash,
which can be interpreted as "hum" to the consumer.

Are you calling me a consumer? :-)

>>>If you simply lift the ground on an ungrounded instrument output you
will get nothing.

Okay.

>>>You need to transformer isolate it's own "ground" and its signal.

I think i am good to go but thanks for further clarification.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/8/2018 7:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
> computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.
>
> Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I had time to reply to your post and Eternal September was down, so I
went to Google. I'll warn you that there some people around here who
will either ignore posts that go through Google Groups or will just
insult the poster.

Mostly these days, when you see a reply to a 15 year old thread, it's
from someone who just discovered rec.audio.pro through Google Groups.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 5:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 7:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>> Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
>> computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.
>>
>> Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"
>
> I had time to reply to your post and Eternal September was down, so I
> went to Google. I'll warn you that there some people around here who
> will either ignore posts that go through Google Groups or will just
> insult the poster.
>
> Mostly these days, when you see a reply to a 15 year old thread, it's
> from someone who just discovered rec.audio.pro through Google Groups.


Who is the moderator? Kidding!

Thanks

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------

>
> May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
> I have *zero* hum.
>

** You might as well have told us your studio is painted green and has zero hum.

> However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
> Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
> I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
> Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
> it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
> didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.
>

** Guitar amps and consumer keyboards are rarely totally hum free devices.

With multiple earths and HP sockets in uses, some hum is a certainty.


>
> Yes, in my second post in this thread I showed two links to insert
> cables that I have tried with no hum when cranked. I wanted to use my
> left over star quad cable which I have a lot of to build a cable.
>

** That last fact IS coming across.




..... Phil

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
> the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
> Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.
>
> >>>"The headphone output is *not* balanced."
>
> Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.
>
> I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
> into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.
>
> I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
> ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
> noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
> and no preamp gain was used.
>
> I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
> hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.
>
> Like these:
>
> http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/
>
> https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5
>
> I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
> and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
> all I have and I have a bunch of it.
>
> I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
>
> http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=61
>
>
>

Linda , this Canare star-quad thing is a distraction and should be
ignored as a totally inappropriate solution for the problem at hand.

Unless you have, or will in the future have a need for extra-low noise
microphone cables, I suggest you sell what you have left on your roll to
fund this new adventure.

Also, did I miss somewhere what length of cable you need for your
keyboard purpose ? And if the Livewire cable too short, back to the make
up your own, either with:

- A 2 core screened cable fanned-out to single-core cable and mono jacks
at far end.

- Two separate single-core cables from the TRS (bulky at the TRS end) to
mono jacks at the far end.

- Better still, but maybe still a squeeze at the TRS end, a cable with
two screened single-core cables in one overall jacket or somehow
mooulded together, each internal screened cable fanned out at the
destination end.

PSU noise of hums possibly exacerbated by grounding issues may be
reduced by powering off a common power distribution strip. Or the
extreme solution being the passive transformer-coupled DI thang.

And we are all 'consumers' in our own ways ;- )

geoff

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------

> Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
> >>>A lot of digital pianos do not have a ground at all.
> >>>They are either powered by a wall wart or a 2 pin mains connector.
>
> Yes, this Yamaha has an inline wall wart switching adapter.
>

** That adds to the liklihood that your keyboard is a hum source.

Using the HP jack makes it a near certainty.



>
> >>>If you simply lift the ground on an ungrounded instrument output you
> will get nothing.
>
> Okay.
>

** ??????



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 9/02/2018 10:47 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:

>
> May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
> I have *zero* hum.

Mine isn't, and I have zero hum !

> However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
> Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
> I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
> Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
> it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
> didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.

Never heard a Fender Princeton that didn't emit hum and/or noise when
'cranked' ! Or pretty much any guitar amp for that matter, moreso any
valve/tube ones.

> I wired all of my my *instrument cable* with mostly short runs as well
> using star quad cable and that was done in the day. Canare did not sell
> instrument cable IIRC at that time. Sure I could have used other cable
> but like I said I bought a ton of this cable to begin with and am still
> using it and it is not in every color of the rainbow which they make and
> mine are all black except for these two blue Canare custom cables which
> are both humming. Continuity tester checks out fine but having 1/4" inch
> on both ends solves my hum problem because I checked with (brand) insert
> cables.

Sound very comprehensive, and not an extent that I would imagine even
the most upmarket and retentive studios would find necessary (I could be
wrong ...).

.... but I hope the instrument cables do not include for passive-pickup
guitars or basses. Those 4-wires-plus-screen instead of
one-wire-plus-screen(s) probably equate to significant shunt capacitance.

geoff

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

gareth magennis wrote:

-----------------------
>
>
> Oh, and if you happen to connect anything else to this ungrounded keyboard,
> such as a mains grounded local monitor,
>


** The OP's keyboard has on board amplifiers and speakers.

Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.



...... Phil

[geoff]

On 9/02/2018 1:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
> computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.
>
> Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"
>
> I was told you can even dictate into Google docs with mic and then copy
> and paste.
>
> Ta da! It works with a tad bit of editing. ;-)

Careful with that - always check what it has 'recognised' before 'Go',
or you may have the cops turning up !

geoff

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

gareth magennis wrote:

-----------------------
>
>
> Sorry, my post probably read a bit arrogant, but I think you will find all
> your problems are down to the wall wart switching adaptor.
>
> See if you can find/borrow a suitable linear alternative to prove yes or
> no.
>

** That is not a practical suggestion.

Yamaha supplied a SMPS adaptor because the output was high current and well regulated.

Finding a suitable *linear* alternative may prove impossible for the OP.



...... Phil

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Geoff wrote:

----------------
>
> >
> > May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
> > I have *zero* hum.
>
> Mine isn't, and I have zero hum !
>

** Painted it all green - right ?


> > However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
> > Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
> > I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
> > Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
> > it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
> > didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.
>
> Never heard a Fender Princeton that didn't emit hum and/or noise when
> 'cranked' ! Or pretty much any guitar amp for that matter, moreso any
> valve/tube ones.
>

** See Fender Princeton Chorus pic:

https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--e-6P2jkl--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progres sive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1494346656/qgyllgpukgg1np1q2pyb.jpg


** All SS, budget model, 2 x 25W power channels and 2 x 10 speakers.

Can operate as a stereo "slave amp".




...... Phil

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

gareth magennis wrote:

------------------------
>>
> >
> > Sorry, my post probably read a bit arrogant, but I think you will find all
> > your problems are down to the wall wart switching adaptor.
> >
> > See if you can find/borrow a suitable linear alternative to prove yes or
> > no.
> >
>
> ** That is not a practical suggestion.
>
> Yamaha supplied a SMPS adaptor because the output was high current and well
> regulated.
>
> Finding a suitable *linear* alternative may prove impossible for the OP.
>
>
> If the piano has built in speakers,
>

** It has a HP jack and no other connectors.

> yes it will have quite a hefty wall wart
> supplied with it.


** It has a high current, SMPS supplied with it.


> You could still test for hum/noise using a low current alternative,


** I have a 1.2V to 12V, 5A bench supply with SFA hum which could be used - I even have some 12V, SLA batteries that definitely have no hum.

But YOU are trying to tell a non technical poster what to do while failing to put yourself in her position in relation to knowing how to identify or where to start looking for an almost non-existent type of PSU.



..... Phil

[Scott Dorsey]

Phil Allison > wrote:
>gareth magennis wrote:
>
>> Oh, and if you happen to connect anything else to this ungrounded keyboard,
>> such as a mains grounded local monitor,
>>
>** The OP's keyboard has on board amplifiers and speakers.
>
>Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.
>
>IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
>from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.

I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
the really cheap stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Linda Masterson:

How close are the keyboard and mixer in
your setup? If just a few steps you could
skip all that star-quad fuss and just go
with this:

https://www.axemusic.com/hosa-stp203-send-return-insert-cable-1-4-trs-male-to-two-1-4-ts.html

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/9/2018 10:57 AM, wrote:
> Linda Masterson:
>
> How close are the keyboard and mixer in
> your setup? If just a few steps you could
> skip all that star-quad fuss and just go
> with this:
>
> https://www.axemusic.com/hosa-stp203-send-return-insert-cable-1-4-trs-male-to-two-1-4-ts.html


12-13 feet and I have already purchased a 9 foot Livewire cable at GC
that was fine but too short at 9 feet. I am going to wire it with star
quad for grins and just compare.

[Linda Masterson]

I might just purchase this for the job.

https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST

NOT!!!

[[email protected]]

Linda Masterson wrote:
"I might just purchase this for the job.

https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST
"

Why not? No sense in overcomplicating
the solution. Do you have return rights
for the roll of star quad?

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 3:43 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

> Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield.
>
> If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.
>
> But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.
>
> On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.
>
> Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.
>
> If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:
>
> Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.
>
> This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.
>
>> Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
>> cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
>> signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.
>
> Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.
>
> If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.

Mike wrote:

>>>> On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the
two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue
wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*.......> On the
TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white
wires to the → sleeve �, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to
the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other
plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

>>>> Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no
sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its
ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For
consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve
of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a
path to the TRS plug's ground.

At least I think you meant ring and not sleave???

[geoff]

On 10/02/2018 8:37 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> I might just purchase this for the job.
>
> https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST
>
>
> NOT!!!


But with its exotic construction it will transparently transfer the
(unwanted) noise from one device to the other much better.

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/9/2018 2:42 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> >>>> On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the
> two white wires to the sleeve,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue
> wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
> other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.
>
> Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*.......> On the
> TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white
> wires to the → sleeve â†�,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to
> the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other
> plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Yes, you're correct. And also, I meant connect the SHIELD to the sleeve
(on both the TRS plug and one of the TS plugs). I make that mistake a
lot, but even when I don't proofread and make a correction, people seem
to figure it out anyway. It's the only thing that makes sense when
you're using a pair of wires as a single wire.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/9/2018 2:48 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/9/2018 2:42 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>> Â*>>>> On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect
>> the two white wires to the sleeve,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two
>> blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip
>> of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.
>>
>> Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*.......> On
>> the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two
>> white wires to the → sleeve â†�,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue
>> wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
>> other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.
>
> Yes, you're correct. And also, I meant connect the SHIELD to the sleeve
> (on both the TRS plug and one of the TS plugs). I make that mistake a
> lot, but even when I don't proofread and make a correction, people seem
> to figure it out anyway. It's the only thing that makes sense when
> you're using a pair of wires as a single wire.

Cool, I have been soldering all day with different configurations of
cable with ends and am saving that one for last. Thanks for getting back
to me and I appreciate your time.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

----------------------
>
> >Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.
> >
> >IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
> >from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.
>
>
>
> I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
> on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
> load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
> with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
> the really cheap stuff.
>

** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.

When no such ground exists ( eg when the unit is on battery power ) signals tend to inject into all wiring equally, leaving little differential anywhere.

Same goes when coupled through a 1:1 transformer, with low capacitance to earth.




..... Phil

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
> I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
> wall wart, not the cabling.
>
> I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
> supply.

There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
wired with the proper polarity.

If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

------------------

> >
> > I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
> > supply.
>
>
> There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
> supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean.
>

** Ones that come with your shiny new audio toy is likely to be hum free, but ones you buy on-line or pick off a shelf in a blister pak can be pretty poor.

Also, in order to comply with EMC regulations, nearly all external SMPSs have a ceramic cap bridging the internal high frequency transformer to the shield or ground on the DC output lead. Only transformer coupling eliminates the resulting high pitched buzz from other audio gear.

> Finding a
> suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
> and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
> voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
> wired with the proper polarity.
>

** I would never ask a customer to do what GM has asked the OP to do - partly because linear ( regulated or not) external DC PSUs are banned from sale here in Australia. They fall foul of minimum energy efficiency regulations.



...... Phil

[Trevor]

On 10/02/2018 10:16 AM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
> No, I think we have our wires crossed, a la Star quad cable.
>
> I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
> wall wart, not the cabling.
>
> I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
> supply.
>
> I said such power supply doesn't HAVE to have the capacity of the
> original, which is capable of driving the inbuilt speakers.
> I inferred it merely has to power up the piano so it is possible to
> check whether the hum has gone away or not.
>
> Even a smallish wall wart should be capable of booting and running the
> piano, as long as you don't use the speakers.
>
> If this experiment proved the original Wall Wart WAS noisy, she could
> THEN start looking to procure another proper one.
>
> Else, continue with the Star Quad shennanigans.
>


At least she said all along that the "Star Quad shennanigans" was simply
because she already had a ton of that cable, NOT because it would
actually solve anything. The real answer IMO is to put an isolation
transformer or DI between the headphone out and mixer. Changing the PSU
alone will probably make little difference. As will the "Star Quad
shennanigans" of course.

Trevor.

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

> Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
> surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than a
> toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI sockets
> and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So I'm
> wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the first
> place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.
>
> Trevor.

I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)

[Trevor]

On 10/02/2018 3:46 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
>> Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
>> surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than
>> a toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI
>> sockets and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So
>> I'm wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the
>> first place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.
>>
> I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
> Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
> keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear.

Yep, I still have an Ensoniq Mirage it might even beat! :-)
But that doesn't mean I'd want to use it!


> Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)

Nor I, it's *your* time and money.
Oh wait, and all the people here trying to help you too I guess. Most of
the real answers you choose to ignore. :-(

Trevor.

[geoff]

On 10/02/2018 2:29 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>> I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the
>> SMPS wall wart, not the cabling.
>>
>> I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
>> supply.
>
> There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
> supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
> suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
> and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
> voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
> wired with the proper polarity.
>
> If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
> get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
> and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
> power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
> for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
> common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).

Yes it is possibly (likely ?) the keyboard itself causing the problems -
not just its power supply.

geoff

[geoff]

On 10/02/2018 5:46 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
>
>> Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
>> surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than
>> a toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI
>> sockets and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So
>> I'm wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the
>> first place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.
>>
>> Trevor.
>
> I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
> Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
> keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
> Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)
>


Many keyboards from yesteryear costing as many thousands as you'd care
to throw at them in fact did have sound/audio quality that is limited
compared to some cheap ones of more recent days.

That doesn't in itself make cheap current ones fantastic, but yours may
indeed have some aspects that are better. But do compare apples with
apples, and see what sound quality you get from the *equivalent*
market-level of current keyboard.

Hell, I have a DX7 and a TX816(actually TX818 when you take into account
the 2 extra modules fitted) that were totally SOTA when they came out,
probably costing well over $5K at even those days money value. They do
sound pretty crappy today, drowning in quantisation noise and limited
frequency response.

But my more current-technology Nord and Rolands sound absolutely stunning.

geoff

[Linda Masterson]

For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
please ignore them. If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
get over it. I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
necessary to explain all of the reasons why.

With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
and master with great results.

Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant but rec.audio.pro has
beautiful minds but where is the heart that most forums have now?

I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
and on throughout the years.

This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to. There is
also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which
I trust based on all of the keyboards that I have owned. I would post
some of my music but you haters would find something to complain about
and I would then prefer to just be anonymous.

For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable
which allows me to split the main conductors and ground easily and I had
the wire readily available; Markertek has been my friend for two decades.

This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
with the TRS to the XLR splits. I am highly sensitive and allergic to
noise but love tape. I bought a Livewire cable from GC with 1/4 inch
connectors and everything was *fine* except it is 9 feet and I cannot
get anything local within a week and I need around 12-14 feet.

I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
butt ugly. Today I soldered some instrument cables, balanced
interconnects, and then this beast which I was clueless to but my
soldering was my best ever. Thanks Mike I needed grounds on both even
though the power supply isn't grounded and I appreciate your offer Scott
for some cable.

I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)

I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.

I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
results in my studio with the computers I build.

I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
that do not read will not understand) ;-)

There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended. Again, I said my
gain staging was *cranked* and there was more noticeable noise with the
cables I was using. Problem fixed and I have learned a lot from all of
you and the great engineering minds that exist on this forum.

For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
questions and just stay stupid.

Have a great day and weekend everyone and sorry for my bother.

Peace out!

[John Williamson]

On 10/02/2018 12:16, Linda Masterson wrote:

> For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
> rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
> questions and just stay stupid.
>
There are no stupid questions, though there have been those on here
trying to push their own views on what you should be doing and how you
should do it. These may count as stupid answers...

Please keep asking, though you may need to suppress the noise a bit to
find the signal in the answers.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------
>
> For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
> please ignore them.
>

** We have a problem with people like you, darl.

And you are making yourself hard to ignore.


> If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
> get over it.


** We have a problem with people like you giving us directions.

Tends to get in the way of anyone taking heed of good advice.


> I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
> necessary to explain all of the reasons why.

** The ones you deigned to supply were enough to give fair warning -

that we are dealing with a another control freak.



> With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
> and master with great results.
>

** Counts for nothing when you cannot fix a hum, darl.


> Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant


** Oh yeah, you sound real damn sorry.


( snip blatant insult)



> I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
> pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
> and on throughout the years.
>

** Counts for nothing when you can't fix a hum - darl.


> This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
> and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to.

** But are so ASHAMED of it you utterly refuse to post the model number ?

Common courtesy demands that info should have been in the very first post.

But being a life long control freak, you could not bear to give away your "upper hand" in the game - could you ??


> There is
> also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which...


** Counts for nothing when you cannot fix a hum - darl.


> For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
> for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable ..


** We can read, but are not inclined to take looney instructions from control freaks.


> This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
> said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
> with the TRS to the XLR splits.


** Which is of no consequence what so ever.

Except to a control freak.


> I am highly sensitive and allergic to noise but love tape.


** Are you also a Vegan who loves steak ?



> I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
> butt ugly.

** You always insist on doing things you are hopeless at ?

Whist bullying others NOT to do the what they are best at ?

Think we can add "megalomaniac" to control freak.



>
> I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
> owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
> Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)
>

** Oh wow look, gratuitous insults are raining from heaven.

How blessed are we.


> I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.
>

** OK, that is quite an achievement.


> I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
> results in my studio with the computers I build.
>
> I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
> that do not read will not understand) ;-)
>

** Hmmmm - she does mind reading as a side line too.


> There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
> no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended.
>

** You were and are still hiding important information - doing that sets of LOUD alarm bells with anyone trying to give good advice under their REAL names.



..... Phil

[Scott Dorsey]

Phil Allison > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> >Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.
>> >
>> >IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
>> >from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.
>>
>> I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
>> on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
>> load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
>> with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
>> the really cheap stuff.
>
>** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.

What do you mean by "grounding?" The grounds on the input are not bonded
to the grounds of the output. (They can be with a switch if necessary).
The idea is to float the two grounds.

The OTHER marvelous benefit of the transformer is that it provides a free
low-pass filter to reduce RF noise, which is one of the biggest problems
with these things. Switching supplies produce RF trash, it gets into audio
electronics and nonlinearities detect it down into audio.

>When no such ground exists ( eg when the unit is on battery power ) signals tend to inject into all wiring equally, leaving little differential anywhere.
>
>Same goes when coupled through a 1:1 transformer, with low capacitance to earth.

These things are true. You can't do anything about the noise on the unbalanced
input side other than to low-pass some of it and to provide a low enough
load impedance that capacitively-coupled noise is reduced.

But you CAN split grounds between the balanced and unbalanced side, and you
CAN balance the signal as close as possible to the instrument.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>> I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
>> wall wart, not the cabling.
>>
>> I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
>> supply.
>
>There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
>supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
>suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
>and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
>voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
>wired with the proper polarity.

I am skeptical, Mike. I spend much of my day tracking down RF noise coming
out of crappy switching supplies. It's true that good clean switchers do
exist, but it's also true that you're likely not to find them at the music
store or at Wal-Mart.

>If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
>get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
>and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
>power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
>for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
>common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).

Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.

The original poster claims to have a hum.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Phil Allison > wrote:
>
>** I would never ask a customer to do what GM has asked the OP to do - par=
>tly because linear ( regulated or not) external DC PSUs are banned from sa=
>le here in Australia. They fall foul of minimum energy efficiency regulatio=
>ns.

They aren't in the US. You can get a nice variety of quality line lumps
from Digi-Key. However, I agree that this is likely not the original poster's
problem, if she has a hum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson > wrote:
>On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
>
>> Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
>> surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than a
>> toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI sockets
>> and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So I'm
>> wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the first
>> place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.
>
>I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
>Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
>keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
>Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)

This may be the case, and if so you should think about how much money
you have saved, and realize that spending a couple hundred dollars for
a transformer isolation device is a small cost in comparison.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/10/2018 10:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.

I've given a talk about that, with examples, a time or two. Most people
just say "hum" and leave those of us trying to help them out guessing
what the real problem is.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Geoff > wrote:
>
>Linda , this Canare star-quad thing is a distraction and should be
>ignored as a totally inappropriate solution for the problem at hand.

This is true.

>Unless you have, or will in the future have a need for extra-low noise
>microphone cables, I suggest you sell what you have left on your roll to
>fund this new adventure.

You ALWAYS will have a need for more microphone cables. No matter how many
cables you have, you will need one more. Never get rid of anything useful!

>Also, did I miss somewhere what length of cable you need for your
>keyboard purpose ? And if the Livewire cable too short, back to the make
>up your own, either with:
>
>- A 2 core screened cable fanned-out to single-core cable and mono jacks
>at far end.
>
>- Two separate single-core cables from the TRS (bulky at the TRS end) to
>mono jacks at the far end.

I like RG-174 (and similar cables) for this because the diameter is small
enough that you can get two into the TRS cable easily, but yet at the same
time they are extremely rugged.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 11/02/2018 1:16 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
> please ignore them. If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
> get over it. I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
> necessary to explain all of the reasons why.
>
> With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
> and master with great results.
>
> Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant but rec.audio.pro has
> beautiful minds but where is the heart that most forums have now?
>
> I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
> pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
> and on throughout the years.
>
> This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
> and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to. There is
> also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which
> I trust based on all of the keyboards that I have owned. I would post
> some of my music but you haters would find something to complain about
> and I would then prefer to just be anonymous.
>
> For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
> for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable
> which allows me to split the main conductors and ground easily and I had
> the wire readily available; Markertek has been my friend for two decades.
>
> This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
> said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
> with the TRS to the XLR splits. I am highly sensitive and allergic to
> noise but love tape. I bought a Livewire cable from GC with 1/4 inch
> connectors and everything was *fine* except it is 9 feet and I cannot
> get anything local within a week and I need around 12-14 feet.
>
> I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
> butt ugly. Today I soldered some instrument cables, balanced
> interconnects, and then this beast which I was clueless to but my
> soldering was my best ever. Thanks Mike I needed grounds on both even
> though the power supply isn't grounded and I appreciate your offer Scott
> for some cable.
>
> I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
> owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
> Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)
>
> I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.
>
> I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
> results in my studio with the computers I build.
>
> I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
> that do not read will not understand) ;-)
>
> There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
> no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended. Again, I said my
> gain staging was *cranked* and there was more noticeable noise with the
> cables I was using. Problem fixed and I have learned a lot from all of
> you and the great engineering minds that exist on this forum.
>
> For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
> rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
> questions and just stay stupid.
>
> Have a great day and weekend everyone and sorry for my bother.
>
> Peace out!
>


Linda,

No problems with you, your posts, your instruments, or whatever. The
only thing is that you may be attributing there perceived problem to the
wrong cause. We are trying to help find the right cause.

I guess if you try everything suggested, that may help narrow things
down. And if none of those find the problem, then that leaves one thing.
Or maybe another thing that nobody has thought of yet.

geoff

[geoff]

On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

>
> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>
> The original poster claims to have a hum.
> --scott
>


Stuck B key ?

;- )

geoff

[Ralph Barone[_3_]]

geoff > wrote:
> On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>>
>> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
>> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>>
>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>> --scott
>>
>
>
> Stuck B key ?
>
> ;- )
>
> geoff
>

Bb if memory serves correctly.

PS: the OP just said lately that her keyboard could be battery powered if
desired. I think that's the big test to show whether the "hum" is coming
from the power supply, or the cable to the mixer.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

-----------------------

> > >
> >> >Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.
> >> >
> >> >IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude
> >> buzz and hum from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.
> >>
>>>
> >> I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
> >> on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
> >> load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
> >> with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
> >> the really cheap stuff.
> >
> >** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.
>
> What do you mean by "grounding?"
>

** I was referring to poorly shielded, $10 contraptions.


> The grounds on the input are not bonded
> to the grounds of the output. (They can be with a switch if necessary).
> The idea is to float the two grounds.
>

** Yep.

The other dodge that works is to place the contraption on a sheet of metal much bigger than the device and ground that with a clip lead.

Mind you, no fluoro tubes switched on in the same room.


...... Phil

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

--------------------

>
> You can get a nice variety of quality line lumps from Digi-Key.
>


** I had a look, wall to wall SMPSs far as the eye could see.

Can you point to a say 12V, 2A *linear* regulated supply ??



..... Phil

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Ralph Barone wrote:

-------------------
>
>
> PS: the OP just said lately that her keyboard could be battery powered if
> desired. I think that's the big test to show whether the "hum" is coming
> from the power supply, or the cable to the mixer.
>


** Some items can still hum though running on batteries, like an elaborate electronic keyboard stuffed in a plastic box.



..... Phil

[[email protected]]

Linda, I'm curious at this point, what is your objection to a di box, which more and more seems the solution you need. At least try a cheap one and see if it resolves the hum. If so, we can go from there.

Mark

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

-------------------
>
> > Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
> > Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>
> I've given a talk about that, with examples, a time or two. Most people
> just say "hum" and leave those of us trying to help them out guessing
> what the real problem is.
>

** Becomes a REAL hassle if the owner cannot demonstrate the noise to the tech but still expects instant diagnosis.

A regular customer and PA system owner began having a "hum" problem with his home stereo, so he brought me his TT and amplifier - which showed no sign of hum whatsoever.

When he casually mentioned that the "hum" even showed up on his cassette deck, I firmly directed him to make a recording and bring it to me.

When I finally got to hear the "hum" I instantly recognised it as coming from a TV set - it had the characteristic 50Hz tone of frame buzz. No wayyy, said my customer, the TV in the room was always off when using the stereo.

Hmmmmmm ....... I puts on me thinking cap.

Is your stereo set up against a common wall with a neighbour ??

He had to admit is was.

Turned out the neighbour had recently moved his TV to the opposite side of this wall, directly behind my customer's stereo.



..... Phil

[Ralph Barone[_3_]]

Phil Allison > wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:
>
> -------------------
>>
>>
>> PS: the OP just said lately that her keyboard could be battery powered if
>> desired. I think that's the big test to show whether the "hum" is coming
>> from the power supply, or the cable to the mixer.
>>
>
>
> ** Some items can still hum though running on batteries, like an
> elaborate electronic keyboard stuffed in a plastic box.
>
>
>
> .... Phil
>
Oh, definitely. But if it hums while on batteries, there's no point
fiddling with the power supply to make it hum less.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 12:08 AM, John Williamson wrote:

> There are no stupid questions,

Only stupid people say that.


> though there have been those on here
> trying to push their own views on what you should be doing and how you
> should do it. These may count as stupid answers...

Not taking any notice of the sensible answers is the really stupid bit.
But then many simply cannot sort the sensible ones from the stupid,
which is not necessarily their fault or they would not have asked in the
first place. But simply dismissing people who have tried to help is
pretty stupid though.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 2:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >, Mike Rivers > wrote:
>> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>>> I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
>>> wall wart, not the cabling.
>>>
>>> I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
>>> supply.
>>
>> There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
>> supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
>> suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
>> and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
>> voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
>> wired with the proper polarity.
>
> I am skeptical, Mike. I spend much of my day tracking down RF noise coming
> out of crappy switching supplies. It's true that good clean switchers do
> exist, but it's also true that you're likely not to find them at the music
> store or at Wal-Mart.
>
>> If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
>> get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
>> and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
>> power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
>> for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
>> common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).
>
> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>
> The original poster claims to have a hum.

Exactly, not something you usually get from an SMPS. Ground problems
OTOH......

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 1:54 PM, wrote:
> Linda, I'm curious at this point, what is your objection to a di box,
> which more and more seems the solution you need. At least try a cheap
> one and see if it resolves the hum. If so, we can go from there.

She's made it pretty clear she's just looking for a project to use up
her star quad. (other than more actual balanced leads for some reason?)
Don't spoil her fun.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 2:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Linda Masterson > wrote:
>> On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
>>
>>> Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
>>> surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than a
>>> toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI sockets
>>> and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So I'm
>>> wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the first
>>> place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.
>>
>> I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
>> Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
>> keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
>> Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)
>
> This may be the case, and if so you should think about how much money
> you have saved, and realize that spending a couple hundred dollars for
> a transformer isolation device is a small cost in comparison.


"couple of hundred"? Hell a $30 Behringer hum destroyer is all she needs
for that toy piano! Anything else is simply massive overkill.

Trevor.

[Linda Masterson]

Okay, so I speak another language than you guys. First the keyboard in
question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
CRANKED. I shouldn't have said hum but if you check the English language
and definition:

Hum:
1.to make a low, continuous, droning sound.
2.to give forth an indistinct sound of mingled voices or *noises*.

I should have said *noise* and I am sorry.

The keyboard in question is a Yamaha YPG-235, and I just so happened to
get a notification from Guitar Center this morning of a *PRO AUDIO* sale
and this keyboard was selling for $299.99. LOL!!!

THE NOISE IS GONE and I thought I made that clear. I wired the star
quad cable like Mike suggested and I needed to split the braided
shielding in half and I soldered two short jumper wires (two of the
conductor wires from another cable (I used a blue and white wire for
those into color ;-) from the sleeve/shield (sorry if I am using the
wrong terminology) to the two 1/4 inch TS connectors. It eliminated what
little noise I had when CRANKED and blew the Livewire cable out of the
water which I will be returning. The Livewire though was much quieter
than my 1/4 inch TRS to two XLR cables. Capiche!

I used heat shrink and a heat gun to make it look tidy and neat and
where there is that V where the split is I used some of that white vinyl
electrical tape.

Looks great and no audible noise except what a dog might hear. This
keyboard can be used as a MIDI controller as well which can get a bit
expensive with 76 keys. It also has a graded keyboard for action but not
weighted by any means.

I have now spent no extra money by using parts and cable laying around
and I got the exact length needed which is around 14 feet tucked away
nicely. Sounds really good to my ears and I am very discerning when it
comes to sound samples along with no noise. :-)

[John Williamson]

On 11/02/2018 07:52, Trevor wrote:
> On 11/02/2018 2:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>
> Exactly, not something you usually get from an SMPS. Ground problems
> OTOH......
>
Yeah, well, the OP has now changed the story again, and it wasn't a hum,
it was noise. It seems we are all wasting our time.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[geoff]

On 11/02/2018 9:49 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Okay, so I speak another language than you guys. First the keyboard in
> question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
> CRANKED.

I'd say your capitalised bit was more likely the problem.

Have you tried the *same gain setup* with the new magic cables ?

geoff

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 09-02-2018 20:37, Linda Masterson wrote:

> I might just purchase this for the job.

> https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST

I don't care if it is a toy piano you have or not, some of the cheapers
ones have very good sounds. What does costs is good mechanics, your
problem, not mine.

What you need is this one:

https://www.thomann.de/dk/palmer_pli02_trennuebertrager.htm

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/11/2018 2:27 AM, geoff wrote:
> On 11/02/2018 9:49 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>> Okay, so I speak another language than you guys. First the keyboard in
>> question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
>> CRANKED.
>
> I'd say your capitalised bit was more likely the problem.
>
> Have you tried the *same gain setup* with the new magic cables ?
>
> geoff

Geoff, I have already stated that my new magic cable works perfectly.
No noise and great sound. Yippee!!!

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/11/2018 2:39 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
> On 09-02-2018 20:37, Linda Masterson wrote:
>
>> I might just purchase this for the job.
>
>> https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST
>>
>
> I don't care if it is a toy piano you have or not, some of the cheapers
> ones have very good sounds. What does costs is good mechanics, your
> problem, not mine.
>
> What you need is this one:
>
> https://www.thomann.de/dk/palmer_pli02_trennuebertrager.htm
>
> Â*Â* Kind regards
>
> Â*Â* Peter Larsen


Why on earth would I buy this when I have already stated my new cable
works perfectly and why do many of you snip off what my post said to
mean something else entirely different??

I then said *NOT* about that cable in question!!! ↑

Led Zeppelin got it right when they said Communication Breakdown.

It seems many here do not comprehend English or maybe it is just a
second language. If one were to reread outside of this box what I have
said and I am not suggesting that anyone should or would, you would see
that most everything I have written is being misunderstood and probably
because many of you are coming in late and inferring things completely
wrong.

This is a great sociological event happening here and I am taking notes.

Kind regards back at you Peter but that is your Sig and not meant for me
of course. I hope it is anyway. By the way who is the guy who plays
great Classical guitar here and I know it wasn't Fletcher? Rhetorical
question and no need to respond.

Where is EveAnna when you need her the most? LOL!!!

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/11/2018 1:44 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 11/02/2018 07:52, Trevor wrote:
>> On 11/02/2018 2:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>>
>> Exactly, not something you usually get from an SMPS. Ground problems
>> OTOH......
>>
> Yeah, well, the OP has now changed the story again, and it wasn't a hum,
> it was noise. It seems we are all wasting our time.

What changed your mind? Just this morning you had a total different tone
and you were saying:

>>>"There are no stupid questions, though there have been those on here
trying to push their own views on what you should be doing and how you
should do it. These may count as stupid answers...

>>>"Please keep asking, though you may need to suppress the noise a bit
to find the signal in the answers."

Great quote for a smart, kind and compassionate human being.

Hum is noise as the dictionary example given in my fourth to last post
dictates.

Anyway, there is way too much white noise on this forum today meaning in
this era and I will refrain from ever posting here again. Have a good
life if this is what many of you call a life and you all can feel free
to go on arguing among yourselves. Another one bites the dust.

Go ahead and shoot me in my back while I am gone and you all will see
what kind of men you really are and don't worry I will not see who does it.

[John Williamson]

On 11/02/2018 12:42, Linda Masterson wrote:
> On 2/11/2018 1:44 AM, John Williamson wrote:
>> On 11/02/2018 07:52, Trevor wrote:
>>> On 11/02/2018 2:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>>>
>>> Exactly, not something you usually get from an SMPS. Ground problems
>>> OTOH......
>>>
>> Yeah, well, the OP has now changed the story again, and it wasn't a
>> hum, it was noise. It seems we are all wasting our time.
>
> What changed your mind? Just this morning you had a total different tone
> and you were saying:
>
Asking questions is not stupid. You are now coming back with stupid
responses to the answers given.

> Hum is noise as the dictionary example given in my fourth to last post
> dictates.
>
In audio terms, hum is a low frequency noise of a defined pitch.

If you want to get into a subject, then learning the jargon is a good
idea, and as for your suggestion that some posters have English as a
second language you are correct. At least one of these posters has given
you good information which you have ignored.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[UnsteadyKen]

In article >,
says...
> First the keyboard in
> > question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
> > CRANKED.
>
>
Why have you got the input "Cranked" when the source has an adjustable
output level?

Did you try lowering the input gain and increasing the output from the
keyboard?

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson Control Freak and TRoll

---------------------------------------

>
> Hum is noise as the dictionary example given in my fourth to last post
> dictates.
>

** Dictionaries are no place to find definitions where every day words are being used as technical terms.

In the contest of electronic musical, audio and recording *equipment* "hum" equals " mains hum ". Not just any old noise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_hum#Causes_of_electric_hum

FYI:

I'll allow that you are more than a little peculiar, suffering from ASD for example - but nevertheless a grandiose, PITA control freak and Troll.

Go away, stay away.




..... Phil

[Phil W]

Unsteadyken:
> says...
>> First the keyboard in
>> > question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
>> > CRANKED.
>>
>>
> Why have you got the input "Cranked" when the source has an adjustable
> output level?
>
> Did you try lowering the input gain and increasing the output from the
> keyboard?

And why the heck would one insist of sending an already pre-amplified signal
into a MIC input instead of a line input and leave the gain pot on the
mixer/interface alone?

Well, as the OP obviously knows everything better than anyone else here and
now has her "magic" cable...
Better don´t demand too much logic in such cases.

[geoff]

On 12/02/2018 1:19 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> On 2/11/2018 2:27 AM, geoff wrote:
>> On 11/02/2018 9:49 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
>>> Okay, so I speak another language than you guys. First the keyboard
>>> in question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING
>>> WAS CRANKED.
>>
>> I'd say your capitalised bit was more likely the problem.
>>
>> Have you tried the *same gain setup* with the new magic cables ?
>>
>> geoff
>
> Geoff, I have already stated that my new magic cable works perfectly.
> No noise and great sound. Yippee!!!


I ask, again, have you tried the new cable with your old (flawed ?) gain
structure and setting, which was probably the real and only cause of
your noise.

Have you tried star-quad for your mains cabling , and for the DC cable
from the keyboard PSU for further noise reduction and yet greater sounds
still ?

geoff

[John Williamson]

On 11/02/2018 13:46, Unsteadyken wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> First the keyboard in
>>> question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
>>> CRANKED.
>>
>>
> Why have you got the input "Cranked" when the source has an adjustable
> output level?
>
> Did you try lowering the input gain and increasing the output from the
> keyboard?
> When I'm looking for the source of hum or noise in the system, part of
the procedure is to crank input and mixer gain up all the way on each
channel in turn with no signal being generated, in this case, it would
all be plugged in and turned on, but not played. Once that's sorted out,
then I know that I can happily use it in anger with sensible gain
staging. <Shrug> YMMV.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Linda Masterson > wrote:
>Okay, so I speak another language than you guys. First the keyboard in
>question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
>CRANKED. I shouldn't have said hum but if you check the English language
>and definition:

Well, then you can totally ignore everything that everyone has said in
this entire thread, because people were all assuming that you actually
meant what you were saying and they were looking for a hum problem.

SO... let's start at the beginning. WHAT is this noise? What does it
sound like? Does it get louder when you turn the volume on the keyboard
up, or not?

>THE NOISE IS GONE and I thought I made that clear. I wired the star
>quad cable like Mike suggested and I needed to split the braided
>shielding in half and I soldered two short jumper wires (two of the
>conductor wires from another cable (I used a blue and white wire for
>those into color ;-) from the sleeve/shield (sorry if I am using the
>wrong terminology) to the two 1/4 inch TS connectors. It eliminated what
>little noise I had when CRANKED and blew the Livewire cable out of the
>water which I will be returning. The Livewire though was much quieter
>than my 1/4 inch TRS to two XLR cables. Capiche!

Maybe, but what WAS the noise? If it was noise caused by poor gain
structure, it's going to come back. If it's noise caused by poor placement
of the power supply, it's going to come back. The noise may have had
absolutely nothing to do with the cable at all. How can anyone know if
we don't even know what kind of noise it is?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 12/02/2018 12:10 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
> Oh dear.
>
> I think she was new to Usenet, and was quite probably put off by all the
> testosterone.
>
>
> Hopefully we all learnt something.
>
>
> Gareth.


No. Simply put off by any of the generously-offered suggestions and
opinions that didn't involve star-quad cable.

geoff

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

geoff wrote:

------------
>
> >
> > Geoff, I have already stated that my new magic cable works perfectly.
> > No noise and great sound. Yippee!!!
>
> I ask, again, have you tried the new cable with your old (flawed ?) gain
> structure and setting, which was probably the real and only cause of
> your noise.
>

** Have you never come across someone who is "allergic" to hum and noise ( eg buzzing or hiss) in audio gear ? I've met a few and am simply expected to fix the problem for them.

They mutter things like "noise is evil" and casually ask for crazy things like guitars with single coil PUs to be made hum free and ready to collect next day.

Sometimes they are naïve beginners and other times the very opposite.

Even if you show them that with *usable* settings dialled up, the hum or noise complained of is so low you can barely hear it in a quiet room - they remain unimpressed. All noise is evil to them - even noise you cannot hear.


> Have you tried star-quad for your mains cabling,

** That is not nice, the OP is just about nutty enough to try that.


> and for the DC cable
> from the keyboard PSU for further noise reduction and yet greater sounds
> still ?
>

** The Canare L-4E6S Star Quad the OP is so enfatuated with does have very good overall copper shielding and the OP just might have a local RFI problem - no way for us to know.

More likely though, it is simple listener error - every time she cranks the gain and listens for noise, she arrives at a new conclusion about the level.


..... Phil

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 8:44 PM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 11/02/2018 07:52, Trevor wrote:
>> On 11/02/2018 2:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>>
>> Exactly, not something you usually get from an SMPS. Ground problems
>> OTOH......
>>
> Yeah, well, the OP has now changed the story again, and it wasn't a hum,
> it was noise. It seems we are all wasting our time.

Yes sadly. Not uncommon though. :-(

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 11:28 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
> Led Zeppelin got it right when they said Communication Breakdown.

Exactly, mostly due to YOU.

>
> It seems many here do not comprehend English

And many don't understand technical language, then complain when THEY
get it all wrong.

>
> This is a great sociological event happening here and I am taking notes.

Let's hope you are much better at sociology than electronics then.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2018 11:42 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

> Hum is noise as the dictionary example given in my fourth to last post
> dictates.

Hum is a noise, but NOT all noise is Hum. Sadly you still can't admit
you were wrong.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 12/02/2018 12:46 AM, Unsteadyken wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> First the keyboard in
>>> question had a SLIGHT BIT OF *NOISE* WHEN THE MIXER GAIN STAGING WAS
>>> CRANKED.
>>
>>
> Why have you got the input "Cranked" when the source has an adjustable
> output level?
>
> Did you try lowering the input gain and increasing the output from the
> keyboard?

She doesn't even know the difference between gain and "gain staging" so
don't ask sill questions. :-)

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 12/02/2018 7:36 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Maybe, but what WAS the noise? If it was noise caused by poor gain
> structure, it's going to come back. If it's noise caused by poor placement
> of the power supply, it's going to come back. The noise may have had
> absolutely nothing to do with the cable at all.

In fact it's unlikely. But then we wouldn't have mega dollar cables if
people without any technical knowledge didn't have faith. :-)

Trevor.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 11-02-2018 13:28, Linda Masterson wrote:

> On 2/11/2018 2:39 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:

>> On 09-02-2018 20:37, Linda Masterson wrote:

>>> I might just purchase this for the job.

>>> https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=VOVOX-SON-TWIN-ST

>> I don't care if it is a toy piano you have or not, some of the
>> cheapers ones have very good sounds. What does costs is good
>> mechanics, your problem, not mine.

>> What you need is this one:

>> https://www.thomann.de/dk/palmer_pli02_trennuebertrager.htm

> Why on earth would I buy this when I have already stated my new cable
> works perfectly

Because of mains safety concerns. Being transformer isolated from
different and highly complex systems is a good habit. And such systems
may insist that your rig, whatever it is, is transformer isolated from them.

> and why do many of you snip off what my post said to
> mean something else entirely different??

Because it is good usenet manners to remove quote that is not commented
on. People who want to read your original post are free to so do.

> I then said *NOT* about that cable in question!!! ↑

And I told you what you should do, no matter whether you have a problem.

> Kind regards back at you Peter but that is your Sig and not meant for me
> of course. I hope it is anyway.

Actually it is meant whenever I type it.

> Where is EveAnna when you need her the most? LOL!!!

Ah, busy riding her bike probably.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
geoff > wrote:
>On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
>> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>>
>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>
>Stuck B key ?

That's what drives me up the wall about working in Europe. The hum is flat,
and I am used to using hums and motor noises to judge pitch so with them
flat, everything goes wrong.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Trevor > wrote:
>On 12/02/2018 7:36 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Maybe, but what WAS the noise? If it was noise caused by poor gain
>> structure, it's going to come back. If it's noise caused by poor placement
>> of the power supply, it's going to come back. The noise may have had
>> absolutely nothing to do with the cable at all.
>
>In fact it's unlikely. But then we wouldn't have mega dollar cables if
>people without any technical knowledge didn't have faith. :-)

As long as people keep running pianos over microphone cables, we'll have
noise problems caused by cables.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Williamson]

On 12/02/2018 14:24, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> That's what drives me up the wall about working in Europe. The hum is flat,
> and I am used to using hums and motor noises to judge pitch so with them
> flat, everything goes wrong.
> --scott
>
I'd recommend staying away from Japan, then, as some parts of the
country are 50Hz, others are 60Hz. Linked by a high voltage DC link.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Chuck[_11_]]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:57:47 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
> wrote:

>geoff wrote:
>
>------------
>>
>> >
>> > Geoff, I have already stated that my new magic cable works perfectly.
>> > No noise and great sound. Yippee!!!
>>
>> I ask, again, have you tried the new cable with your old (flawed ?) gain
>> structure and setting, which was probably the real and only cause of
>> your noise.
>>
>
>** Have you never come across someone who is "allergic" to hum and noise ( eg buzzing or hiss) in audio gear ? I've met a few and am simply expected to fix the problem for them.
>
>They mutter things like "noise is evil" and casually ask for crazy things like guitars with single coil PUs to be made hum free and ready to collect next day.
>
>Sometimes they are naïve beginners and other times the very opposite.
>
>Even if you show them that with *usable* settings dialled up, the hum or noise complained of is so low you can barely hear it in a quiet room - they remain unimpressed. All noise is evil to them - even noise you cannot hear.
>
>
>> Have you tried star-quad for your mains cabling,
>
>** That is not nice, the OP is just about nutty enough to try that.
>
>
>> and for the DC cable
>> from the keyboard PSU for further noise reduction and yet greater sounds
>> still ?
>>
>
>** The Canare L-4E6S Star Quad the OP is so enfatuated with does have very good overall copper shielding and the OP just might have a local RFI problem - no way for us to know.
>
>More likely though, it is simple listener error - every time she cranks the gain and listens for noise, she arrives at a new conclusion about the level.
>
>
>.... Phil

Back in the 80s we had a guy bring in a Marantz receiver that, with no
input and the volume control all the way up on extremely sensitive
headphones, a slight hum could be heard. The receiver tech didn't want
to do anything because the receiver was under warranty and within
spec. I said "what the hell, lets try to help this guy." I was able
to eliminate the "problem" by running a shielded cable in a different
route. The customer isn't always right but I figured he might tell
others about our good service.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
John Williamson > wrote:
>On 12/02/2018 14:24, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> That's what drives me up the wall about working in Europe. The hum is flat,
>> and I am used to using hums and motor noises to judge pitch so with them
>> flat, everything goes wrong.
>>
>I'd recommend staying away from Japan, then, as some parts of the
>country are 50Hz, others are 60Hz. Linked by a high voltage DC link.

Yeah, that's bad news. A recipe for weird beat notes on the border.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 13/02/2018 3:24 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >,
> geoff > wrote:
>> On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
>>> Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.
>>>
>>> The original poster claims to have a hum.
>>
>> Stuck B key ?
>
> That's what drives me up the wall about working in Europe. The hum is flat,
> and I am used to using hums and motor noises to judge pitch so with them
> flat, everything goes wrong.
> --scott
>

Naa. In most of the world, not just Europe, it's a little sharp for G .

geoff

[geoff]

On 13/02/2018 6:40 AM, John Williamson wrote:
> On 12/02/2018 14:24, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> That's what drives me up the wall about working in Europe.* The hum is
>> flat,
>> and I am used to using hums and motor noises to judge pitch so with them
>> flat, everything goes wrong.
>> --scott
>>
> I'd recommend staying away from Japan, then, as some parts of the
> country are 50Hz, others are 60Hz. Linked by a high voltage DC link.
>

Yeah , North Japan is 50HZ and the rest 60Hz.

For those who don't realise, most of the world is 50Hz. Just Southern
Japan, North America, most of South America, with a few tiny exceptions
are 60.

geoff

[[email protected]]

Geoff wrote: "Yeah , North Japan is 50HZ and the rest 60Hz.

For those who don't realise, most of the world is 50Hz. Just Southern
Japan, North America, most of South America, with a few tiny exceptions
are 60.

geoff"


Philipppines - 240V/60Hz

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Geoff wrote:

------------
>
>
> Yeah , North Japan is 50HZ and the rest 60Hz.
>

** Southern cities of Japan were bombed heavily at the end of WW2, while the northern cities were out of range to US bombers. In order to restore mains power quickly after Japan surrendered - the US Army brought in large diesel generators rated at 115VAC and 60Hz.

Overly long cable runs meant voltages sagged, so light bulbs and appliances were made and sold that suited 100VAC or even 90VAC supplies.


..... Phil