[Linda Masterson]

Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm




The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.

I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out to
the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into the
L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input channel.

If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each of
the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins 1 and 3.

Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.

You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.

Good luck.

geoff

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
using Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has more
wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm




The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.

I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out to
the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into the
L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input channel.

If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each of
the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins 1
and 3.

Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.

You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.

Good luck.

geoff

In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.

geoff

[Trevor]

On 7/02/2018 12:59 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
using Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has
more wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm




The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.

I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out
to the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack mono
'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still into
the L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo input
channel.

If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each
of the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR pins
1 and 3.

Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.

You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.

Good luck.


In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.


Personally I'd *never* wire unbalanced to XLR. Guaranteed to blow up
your phantom power someday. If the mixer is close, use a stereo phone
plug to L/R mono plugs, and use a stereo line input. If not then you
need a DI (or 2) as well for XLR inputs.

Trevor.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

----------------------

Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S.

** As others have said, stereo headphone jacks are not TRS balanced. The signals are a "stereo pair", at a level that requires a line input.

You need an adaptor lead like the one in fig 10, made using regular twisted pair mic cable long enough to reach easily to the mixer.

At the twin plug end, sneak one signal PLUS a short ground wire out the back of one mono plug to go to the other.

Twist the wires and sleeve them with plastic tube before fitting into the plug.


http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 7/02/2018 3:57 PM, Trevor wrote:
On 7/02/2018 12:59 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 7/02/2018 2:55 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 7/02/2018 1:27 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare
star quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this
please understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all
of my 2-3 thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be
using Switchcraft connectors ;-)

Similar to the 10th one down in the diagram but the star quad has
more wires (duh).

http://www.raf-net.com/gallery/tools...20diagrams.htm




The headphone output is *not* balanced. It is stereo L+R unbalanced
outputs on a TRS jack-plug. Tip=L, ring=R, and sleeve=Ground.

I suggest use a regular two-conductor-plus-screen cable, fanning out
to the two separate unbalanced jack plugs to go into a mixer jack
mono 'Line Input', either on two adjacent channels, or better still
into the L=R line inputs on an appropriately equipped mixer's stereo
input channel.

If you must use XLRs, then one central conductor plus screen to each
of the XLRs agt the mixer end, signal to XLR pin 2, and short XLR
pins 1 and 3.

Either way it will be a kludge where the cables fan out at the mixer
end, even with star-quad cable should you decide to use that for some
obscure reason. I would use two slightly thinner unbal cables at the
mixer end, and heat-shrink the junction kludge.

You may wish to mark which jack plug (or XLR) comes from the keyboard
jack's 'tip', which will be the Left channel, etc.

Good luck.


In fact, look at the pic *above* the one you mentioned on the link.


Personally I'd *never* wire unbalanced to XLR. Guaranteed to blow up
your phantom power someday. If the mixer is close, use a stereo phone
plug to L/R mono plugs, and use a stereo line input. If not then you
need a DI (or 2) as well for XLR inputs.

Trevor.





Yeah 48VDC (or any VDC for that matter) doesn't do well into keyboard
headphone outputs, or for the alternative likely use for the cable on
iPod/laptop/MP3-player outputs.


geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

It's not balanced. It's a TRS jack, but it's not balanced.

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
Switchcraft connectors ;-)

That's fine. I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
your connection is not balanced.

If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.

If the keyboard puts out stereo and you really want to be 100000% sure it will work the first time....wire 1000 Ohms in series with each mono 1/4" plugs, but it will "probably work without that.

Or if the keyboard is putting out mono, just connect one mono plug and tape up the other one. Or just use a standard 1/4" shielded cable instead of an insert cable. (not a speaker cable)

The ground lift switch on the DI box can be used to prevent ground loop problems.

The DI box will make it very safe to connect to a mixer mic input.

Mark

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.



But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.

Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?

geoff

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 2:17:37 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.



But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.

Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?

geoff

Yes, my suggestion sums the L+R to a single mono input.
or uses only L or R into a mono input channel.
Unless I misunderstood you, we are in agreement.

OP, did you want to feed a true stereo signal to the mixer or mono?

mark

[Trevor]

On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.



But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input channel.

Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you need
a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.



Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?


Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use one
XLR in.

Trevor.

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 1:20 PM, Trevor wrote:
On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.



But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input
channel.

Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you need
a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.



Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?


Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use one
XLR in.

Trevor.





..... and match on each channel strip gain, EQ, Aux/Monitor, insert
device, etc settings pretty closely.

geoff

[Linda Masterson]

Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.

"The headphone output is *not* balanced."

Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.

I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

Like these:

http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/

https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

wrote:

-------------------------

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece.... A DI BOX.


** Yeah right, the OP needs a DI box like a fish needs a bicycle.


I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug wired
to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.


Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standard DI box.


** Pure idiocy.

The two 1/4 jacks on the input of a DI are wired in parallel - which allows an instrument feeding a DI to continue on to an amplifier etc.


If the keyboard puts out stereo and you really want to be 100000% sure
it will work the first time....wire 1000 Ohms in series with each mono
1/4" plugs, but it will "probably work without that.


** You can bet the HP signal is stereo and it will NOT work with a DI.


( rest of this pile of drivel snipped)



..... Phil

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.

"The headphone output is *not* balanced."

Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.

I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

Like these:

http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/

https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61




Possibly many of the claimed benefits are somewhat inflated by the
marketing department, and many audible differences are often
psychologically-suggestive rather than real, "bright ringing
characteristics" and suchlike ...

Though I find Canare good - I have a bunch - I would not get fixated on
the brand (apart from having the reel that you do have !) there are many
(most ?) other cable brands that are fine. And some that aren't, usually
for physical-handling and durability issues.

ather than

geoff

[Trevor]

On 8/02/2018 12:11 PM, Geoff wrote:
On 8/02/2018 1:20 PM, Trevor wrote:
On 8/02/2018 6:17 AM, geoff wrote:
On 8/02/2018 3:35 AM, wrote:

None of the options on your diagrams show the key piece....Â* A DI BOX.

I'd use a standard "insert cable" which is a stereo 1/4 inch plug
wired to 2 mono 1/4" plugs.

Connect the stereo plug to the keyboard.
Connect the two mono plugs to the 2 jacks of a standardÂ* DI box.

Connect the DI box to your mixer via a standard XLR mic cable.

But ... a keyboard L+R more commonly used on a single stereo input
channel.

Unless you want the keyboard at a distance from the mixer, then you
need a DI or 2. If not, don't use XLR channels. Simple.

Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
channels.

Any (commonly) desks with a stereo channel with two XLR ins ?

Just use 2 XLR inputs, one panned left, and one panned right. Not that
hard to push 2 faders instead of one. Most of us do it all the time!
If you don't need stereo, or you run out of mixer channels, just use
one XLR in.

.... and match on each channel strip gain, EQ, Aux/Monitor, insert
device, etc settings pretty closely.


Yep, can't say I've ever had a problem just setting the knobs the same
on both channels. But if it's too hard, just use mono. And if you don't
need balanced, DON'T use XLR's in the first place!

Trevor.

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Geoff wrote:

-------------

From the OP:

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61



Possibly many of the claimed benefits are somewhat inflated by the
marketing department, and many audible differences are often
psychologically-suggestive rather than real, "bright ringing
characteristics" and suchlike ...


** That is probably one characteristic that is quite real.

Canare GS-6 is a low noise & low capacitance guitar cable, so is optimised to work with unbalanced HIGH impedance pickups as fitted to most guitars.

The inductance of guitar PU resonates with the cable capacitance to produce a very audible peak in the upper treble range - and the less the capacitance the higher the peak frequency.


Though I find Canare good - I have a bunch - I would not get fixated on
the brand (apart from having the reel that you do have !) there are many
(most ?) other cable brands that are fine. And some that aren't, usually
for physical-handling and durability issues.


** Yep, the Canare uses thicker than usual conductors ( so is OK used as speaker to amp lead) and is very tough.

Some guitar cables, though having low noise and capacitance, are too stretchy causing the centre conductor to break internally the first time they get a hard yank.


..... Phil

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

On 08-02-2018 02:09, Geoff wrote:

Unless one wants to get 'clever' and be able to pan more exotically,
though other settings will need to be duplicated on the two input
channels.

Modifying a DI box to have reduced channel separation comes to mind as
constituting "something clever".

That's what I meant about wanting to do something 'clever'.

Kind of depends on the purpose. If for recording, especially into a DAW,
then certainly record in stereo, preferably to one stereo track. Then
any channel splitting and tricky panning can be easily done afterwards.

If for live performance, then I'd go the Mono route. Unless happy to
have a keyboard spanning the whole sound-stage. Alternative is the
fiddly effort required to pan across just a specific narrower spread,
using two mixer channels.

Narrower stereo could be very useful because it allows the keyboards
internal reverb to perceptually fill the room.

However a keyboard with a TRS output only likely will not have a mono
output or doscrete channels option available. With separate L and R out
jacks there is usually L/Mono and R, with the summed Mono function of
the L jack being internally defeated (to give discrete L and R) when the
R jack is inserted.

geoff

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
pickup from electromagnetic fields.

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
into mic inputs on the mixer.

For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
cable here) between the direct box and mixer.

I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
headphone output is a mini jack.

https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61

You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.




--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[sTeeVee]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:09:33 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Linda Masterson wrote:
Anybody have a suggestion on the *best* way to wire a consumer grade
keyboard with only a balanced stereo headphone output to mixer?

It's not balanced. It's a TRS jack, but it's not balanced.

Balanced stereo jack TRS to *TWO* unbalanced jacks TS using Canare star
quad L-4E6S. Before you denigrate me for wanting to do this please
understand most of the sample sounds are much better than all of my 2-3
thousand dollar keyboards from yesteryear and I will be using
Switchcraft connectors ;-)

That's fine. I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
your connection is not balanced.

If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I would also suggest tying the two outputs together with nominal buildout resistors - perhaps 600 ohms or so. This will help cut down on intermodulation distortion, to the extent that it would manifest, depending upon the output impedence of the device. This, however may not be knowable without disassembly and direct observation. Therefore, erring on the side of caution and use the resistors might be the way to go. You can easily build this tiny network into the connector plug on the far side (away from the instrument) esp. if you are using a switchcraft 280 or similar TS connector with a sturdy metal handle. A touch of shrink tubing will also help in your assembly. DON'T use the internal cable clamp over the resistor however! Good luck!

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 8:17:09 AM UTC-5, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
pickup from electromagnetic fields.

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
into mic inputs on the mixer.

For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
cable here) between the direct box and mixer.

I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
headphone output is a mini jack.

https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61

You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.


That's what I'm thinkin'. I use one of these between my Mac headphone output and my Digidesign DIGI 003R aux input. It cleaned up a lot of the noise.
https://bhpho.to/2EafbDz

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson wrote:
I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

Lift pin 1 on the XLR ends. Does the noise go away? You can use a
ground lift adaptor or you can modify the cable.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

The reason why people use DI boxes on stage is that they contain
transformers that allow you to break ground connections with impunity.
You don't get QUITE as good an ability to do this just with an XLR input
that is electronically balanced, but it's not too bad.

It would help if you could show us what the actual wiring inside those
cables was.

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

Why not the DI?

If you want some cheap RG-174, give me an address and I'll send you a few
feet. It costs me pennies.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
pickup from electromagnetic fields.

BUT... only with balanced connections and only if properly wired.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/7/2018 6:09 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
--scott


Thanks!

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 5:17 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/7/2018 9:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up
years ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR
but have noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was
cranked up and no preamp gain was used.


There are many reasons why you could have hum, but star quad cable isn't
one. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe Scott or someone already
mentioned this. Star quad cable, when used as designed, helps to reduce
pickup from electromagnetic fields.

May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
I have *zero* hum.

However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if
possible and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes
this cable is all I have and I have a bunch of it.

You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet. A direct box
gives you a balanced MIC level signal. You'd use one if you were going
into mic inputs on the mixer.

Thanks!

For a long cable run, using a short cable to connect the keyboard to a
direct box and then mic cables (you could use your lots of star quad
cable here) between the direct box and mixer.

I'd recommend an off-the-shelf solution. Buy what's commonly known in
the PA business as an Insert cable. It's a 1/4" TRS ("stereo") plug on
one end and two 1/4" TS ("unbalanced") plugs on the other end, wired
with one TS plug wired to the tip and the other wired to the ring of the
TRS plug. Here's a link to Swee****er's Insert Cable web page. There's
even one with a mini stereo phone plug on one end if your keyboard's
headphone output is a mini jack.

https://www.swee****er.com/c780--Insert_Y_Cables

Yes, in my second post in this thread I showed two links to insert
cables that I have tried with no hum when cranked. I wanted to use my
left over star quad cable which I have a lot of to build a cable.

I have a brand new TRS Switchcraft connector and two Switchcraft TS
which I am trying to find a new home for using my star quad cable for
the Yamaha keyboard output which has a 1/4" stereo out only; consumer
grade keyboard but with good sampled sounds.

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61

You really don't need any high-falootin' cable. If you have a hum
problem with plain old cable, properly wired, you don't have a cable
problem, you have a ground problem. Maybe a transformer (direct box)
will alleviate it, or your keyboard or mixer may have a problem, either
something broken or a design problem straight from the manufacturer.

I wired all of my my *instrument cable* with mostly short runs as well
using star quad cable and that was done in the day. Canare did not sell
instrument cable IIRC at that time. Sure I could have used other cable
but like I said I bought a ton of this cable to begin with and am still
using it and it is not in every color of the rainbow which they make and
mine are all black except for these two blue Canare custom cables which
are both humming. Continuity tester checks out fine but having 1/4" inch
on both ends solves my hum problem because I checked with (brand) insert
cables.

Questions:

How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
actually understood? ;-)

Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 1:21 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Linda Masterson wrote:
I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

Lift pin 1 on the XLR ends. Does the noise go away? You can use a
ground lift adaptor or you can modify the cable.

I already cut the 1/4 inch TRS connector off of both cables. :-(
I need to build another balanced cable and need the ends.

I just bought one from Markertek for the wiring job in question and I
have a bunch of TS in my possession.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

The reason why people use DI boxes on stage is that they contain
transformers that allow you to break ground connections with impunity.
You don't get QUITE as good an ability to do this just with an XLR input
that is electronically balanced, but it's not too bad.

It would help if you could show us what the actual wiring inside those
cables was.

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

Why not the DI?

I would prefer no DIs in the studio and good ones can get expensive plus
it becomes an eyesore in my situation but thanks for asking Mike and
others just the same. :-)

If you want some cheap RG-174, give me an address and I'll send you a few
feet. It costs me pennies.
--scott

Thanks a bunch but I can afford that cable. :-)

[Mike Rivers]

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:47:19 UTC-5, Linda Masterson wrote:

How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
actually understood? ;-)

Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield..

If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.

But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.

On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.

If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:

Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.

This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.

Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.

Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.

If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.

[Linda Masterson[_2_]]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:09:33 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:


I wouldn't bother with Star Quad, I'd just use single
conductor shielded cable, since you're not going very far anyway, and
your connection is not balanced.

If you have to use the Star Quad because that's all you have on hand, I
would use the two whites for ground, the two blues for signal, and
tie the shield to ground on the source end but leave the shield floating
on the destination end. (This might mean putting some heatshrink over
the shield and them clamping over the heatshrink for Switchcraft XLRs.)
--scott

News server down posting via Google.

How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".

[Linda Masterson[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 3:43:05 PM UTC-8, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:47:19 UTC-5, Linda Masterson wrote:

How would you wire this star quad cable like Scott alluded to which I
actually understood? ;-)

Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield.

If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.

But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.

On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.

If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:

Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.

This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.

Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.

Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.

If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.


Very well said Mike and I understood all of it. Thank you for your precious time and to all of you who have contributed to this thread.

Tomorrow I will fire up my Weller ;-)

[Scott Dorsey]

Linda Masterson wrote:

How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".

Tip on the TRS to center conductor of wire 1 to tip of TS #1.
Ring on the TRS to center conductor of wire 2 to tip of TS #1.
Sleeve on the TRS to both shields to sleeves of both TS #1 and TS #2.

BUT..... your hum problem is almost certainly caused by a ground loop and
will continue no matter how it's wired, unless you can find a way to lift
the ground connections between the instrument and the console. A DI can
make this foolproof but you can likely do it using your existing cable
with pin 1 lifted on the XLR ends so the ground floats.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Linda Masterson]

Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.

Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I was told you can even dictate into Google docs with mic and then copy
and paste.

Ta da! It works with a tad bit of editing. ;-)

[Trevor]

On 9/02/2018 12:17 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
You absolutely don't need a direct box (two for stereo) to connect a
headphone output to a line level input unless you're running a
particularly long cable, like more than about 50 feet.

Interesting figure you've chosen. Personally I'd never run that far
without going balanced. But then I'd always go balanced in any live PA
setup anyway. Frankly I can't even imagine bothering to make a 50 foot
unbalanced cable myself, even if it worked. Perhaps I could use XLR to
phone plug adapters if I was really desperate I guess.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

On 9/02/2018 1:11 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
That's what I'm thinkin'. I use one of these between my Mac headphone
output and my Digidesign DIGI 003R aux input. It cleaned up a lot of
the noise. https://bhpho.to/2EafbDz


Yep these things are great for getting rid of ground loops. Have you
compared it to the much cheaper Behrenger version? There are much dearer
ones with really good transformers of course, but that doesn't look like
it would be one.

Trevor.

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 4:18 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Linda Masterson wrote:

How would I wire this with a single conductor? Remember I am wanting to split the signal into two 1/4" TS connectors for stereo. Headphone out to two TS 1/4".

Tip on the TRS to center conductor of wire 1 to tip of TS #1.
Ring on the TRS to center conductor of wire 2 to tip of TS #1.
Sleeve on the TRS to both shields to sleeves of both TS #1 and TS #2.

BUT..... your hum problem is almost certainly caused by a ground loop and
will continue no matter how it's wired, unless you can find a way to lift
the ground connections between the instrument and the console. A DI can
make this foolproof but you can likely do it using your existing cable
with pin 1 lifted on the XLR ends so the ground floats.
--scott


Thanks Scott and very interesting. Please remember I am cranking the
gain and being ultra particular about noise which sounds like hum.

The Livewire interconnect cable helped considerably and was acceptable
to my ears but i was hoping to return it because it is too short and it
was the longest Guitar Center had for this situation.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Livewire...1-4-TS-Male.gc

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 4:44 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:

A lot of digital pianos do not have a ground at all.
They are either powered by a wall wart or a 2 pin mains connector.

Yes, this Yamaha has an inline wall wart switching adapter.

The wall warts are often SMPS, which can inject all kinds of hash,
which can be interpreted as "hum" to the consumer.

Are you calling me a consumer? :-)

If you simply lift the ground on an ungrounded instrument output you
will get nothing.

Okay.

You need to transformer isolate it's own "ground" and its signal.

I think i am good to go but thanks for further clarification.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/8/2018 7:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.

Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I had time to reply to your post and Eternal September was down, so I
went to Google. I'll warn you that there some people around here who
will either ignore posts that go through Google Groups or will just
insult the poster.

Mostly these days, when you see a reply to a 15 year old thread, it's
from someone who just discovered rec.audio.pro through Google Groups.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Linda Masterson]

On 2/8/2018 5:26 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/8/2018 7:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.

Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I had time to reply to your post and Eternal September was down, so I
went to Google. I'll warn you that there some people around here who
will either ignore posts that go through Google Groups or will just
insult the poster.

Mostly these days, when you see a reply to a 15 year old thread, it's
from someone who just discovered rec.audio.pro through Google Groups.


Who is the moderator? Kidding!

Thanks

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------


May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
I have *zero* hum.


** You might as well have told us your studio is painted green and has zero hum.

However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.


** Guitar amps and consumer keyboards are rarely totally hum free devices.

With multiple earths and HP sockets in uses, some hum is a certainty.



Yes, in my second post in this thread I showed two links to insert
cables that I have tried with no hum when cranked. I wanted to use my
left over star quad cable which I have a lot of to build a cable.


** That last fact IS coming across.




..... Phil

[geoff]

On 8/02/2018 3:06 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Thanks guys, the *collective* here in this NG is awesome and the best in
the world but you all knew that and much better than calling Canare or
Markertek although I weighed their advice as well.

"The headphone output is *not* balanced."

Thank you Geoff, Phil and Scott for pointing this out. My bad.

I appreciate *everyone's* suggestions and I am wanting two line inputs
into the mixer for panning when this configuration is needed.

I have two custom made Canare star quad L-4E6S that I had made up years
ago at different lengths, 1/4 "stereo" ;-) male jack to two XLR but have
noticeable hum which was unacceptable although the gain was cranked up
and no preamp gain was used.

I went 1/4" with inferior cable for grins and will be returning, but the
hum is much less noticeable when again cranking up the gain.

Like these:

http://livewire-usa.com/sy9tq/

https://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/IPBQ2Q5

I would like to avoid the direct box suggestion at all cost if possible
and was hoping to avoid this and as Scott brought up, yes this cable is
all I have and I have a bunch of it.

I would however like to get my hands on some of this.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=61




Linda , this Canare star-quad thing is a distraction and should be
ignored as a totally inappropriate solution for the problem at hand.

Unless you have, or will in the future have a need for extra-low noise
microphone cables, I suggest you sell what you have left on your roll to
fund this new adventure.

Also, did I miss somewhere what length of cable you need for your
keyboard purpose ? And if the Livewire cable too short, back to the make
up your own, either with:

- A 2 core screened cable fanned-out to single-core cable and mono jacks
at far end.

- Two separate single-core cables from the TRS (bulky at the TRS end) to
mono jacks at the far end.

- Better still, but maybe still a squeeze at the TRS end, a cable with
two screened single-core cables in one overall jacket or somehow
mooulded together, each internal screened cable fanned out at the
destination end.

PSU noise of hums possibly exacerbated by grounding issues may be
reduced by powering off a common power distribution strip. Or the
extreme solution being the passive transformer-coupled DI thang.

And we are all 'consumers' in our own ways ;- )

geoff

[Phil Allison[_4_]]

Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------

Gareth Magennis wrote:

A lot of digital pianos do not have a ground at all.
They are either powered by a wall wart or a 2 pin mains connector.

Yes, this Yamaha has an inline wall wart switching adapter.


** That adds to the liklihood that your keyboard is a hum source.

Using the HP jack makes it a near certainty.




If you simply lift the ground on an ungrounded instrument output you
will get nothing.

Okay.


** ??????



..... Phil