[Leo[_2_]]

Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition
(running on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking
for other options.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Leo

"Leo" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition (running
on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking for
other options.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Leo

I think the marantz 671 fits that des ription
I just got one a month ago and am still working my way around it
george

[Arny Krueger]

"Leo" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a

- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition (running
on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking for
other options.

Any suggestions?

Easy - the M-Audio Microtrack. It connects to Windows and Mac PCs as a
regular disk storage device. Browse the disk and drag and drop the .wav
and/or MP3 files as you wish.

I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to address
some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have and use).
Issues addressed include the original Microtrack's slightly low phantom
power voltage, slightly limited range of preamp gain, and recordings that
create .wav files larger than 2 GB.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...kII-focus.html

http://www.m-audio.com/images/global...ck_UG_EN01.pdf

As far as capacity goes, they say the Microtrack will hold 100 minutes of
16/44 uncompressed on a 1 GB CF card. That fits with my experience. It
records at up to 16/96 or 24/88, using proportionally more space per
minute. It handles up to 8 GB CF cards, for a total recording time of 4:30
at 24/88.

At your desired 24/44 the Microtrack's capacity is about 4:30 on the more
common 4 GB CF card.

The Microtrack uses an internal lithium cell for portable recording, accepts
USB power from the provided wall wart, or will work with other external
USB-cord connected power source such as those used with USB-compatible cell
phones.

[andrejs eigus]

dear Leo,

below is a link with useful information about various current solid state
recorders and their common characteristics:

http://www.avisoft.com/tutorial_field_recording.htm

as you can see, the Tascam HD-P2 is at #2 after Sound Devices 7xxx series
recorders. the usual retail price for the Tascam HD-P2 is around $1000 but
i am sure you may find a better price.

the good:

- good quality preamps on XLR inputs (low noise floor: EIN: -125 dBu,
sens.: -40 dBu @ 44khz/16-bit/max gain/150 ohm termination); see
http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf for comparisons
- supports 48V phantom power to feed condenser microphones on both XLR
inputs
- supports sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 174.4, 192
- bit-depth: 16 and 24
- supports mono mode (left channel only, right channel only or sum)
- accepts compact flash or microdisk cards (i am using 8GB A-DATA CF since
spring, 2007)
- firewire interface for data transfer to/from PC
- timecode support (incoming timecode only for sync-to-camera)
- has both analog and digital I/O
- features LCD screen with peak meters and other valuable information
- light-weighted and easy to operate

the bad:

- runs on AA batteries (not very reliable, as shaking the unit may cause
batteries within the battery compartment to accidently disconnect,
therefore, along with rechargeables, i also use the external power supply
Tekkeon MP3300)
- there are important buttons at the top panel - not very easy to operate if
you carry it within the bag
- plastic case (though i find it rather reliable)

i have it, i like it and i recommend it! i did many recording jobs with it
and i think it's worth the price.

-andrejs

"Leo" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition (running
on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking for
other options.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Leo

[andrejs eigus]

as you can see, the Tascam HD-P2 is at #2 after Sound Devices 7xxx series
recorders. the usual retail price for the Tascam HD-P2 is around $1000
but i am sure you may find a better price.

#2 i meant in terms of the noise-floor tests:

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf

[Chip Borton]

"Leo" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition (running
on XP not Mac)



I have the HD-P2 from Tascam and like it very much.
http://www.tascam.com/details;8,11,52.html

[[email protected]]

On Oct 17, 9:00 am, "andrejs eigus" wrote:
as you can see, the Tascam HD-P2 is at #2 after Sound Devices 7xxx series
recorders. the usual retail price for the Tascam HD-P2 is around $1000
but i am sure you may find a better price.

#2 i meant in terms of the noise-floor tests:

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf

No recorder in that price range has analog audio electronics and
convertors that make recoding at 96k worthwhile.
The Tascam HDP2 has worked very well for me on countless video shoots,
but we run it at 16/48. To get any real benefit from portable 24/96
recording you need to move up to something like a Sound Devices 702.
The handheld recorders you mention are even lower fi than the Tascam
P2. If you want to use something like a Microtrack, save your storage
space and record at 16 or 24 bit 44.1 or 48k, band do record in full-
bandwidth wav files not MP3.

Philip Perkins

[rboy]

On Oct 17, 11:45 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to address
some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have and use).


Arny, can you comment for a second on the quality of the recordings
you get from the Microtrack? Have you done much with external mics?
Aside from the phantom, issue I'm trying to find out if it's worth
pursuing for something that's not just suitable for rehearsal
recordings. Was talking to someone who said not to go for the Zoom
H2 for external mic use, that it doesn't do them justice (though he's
not returning it because he loves it for non-critical stuff.)

Obviously it is what it is, but, given that, what's the audio
pleasure rating? If you put it among your other mics during a
concert does it at least give you a pleasing recording?

Thanks.

rboy

[andrejs eigus]

as you can see, the Tascam HD-P2 is at #2 after Sound Devices 7xxx
series
recorders. the usual retail price for the Tascam HD-P2 is around $1000
but i am sure you may find a better price.

#2 i meant in terms of the noise-floor tests:

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf

No recorder in that price range has analog audio electronics and
convertors that make recoding at 96k worthwhile.

i disagree. my opinion is that it is worth recording at 96/24 using hd-p2.

The Tascam HDP2 has worked very well for me on countless video shoots,
but we run it at 16/48. To get any real benefit from portable 24/96
recording you need to move up to something like a Sound Devices 702.

what is your assumption based upon? any measurements have been made?

indeed, i do use the Grace Lunatec V3 with the HDP2 now, but only because i
strive for even more fidelity. i have worked with the HDP2 before and it
gave me excellent results precisely at 96/24, with its built in mic preamps.
do you want me to make I/O signal round-up trip comparison tests ? Sound
Devices 702 is certainly a superior machine, it is better built, and it has
a built-in hard drive, but in terms of recorded audio quality at higher
sample rates it is NOT that much of a step up, in my humble opinion. i
really think these two machines are comparable.

The handheld recorders you mention are even lower fi than the Tascam
P2. If you want to use something like a Microtrack, save your storage
space and record at 16 or 24 bit 44.1 or 48k, band do record in full-
bandwidth wav files not MP3.

i don't want to use a Microtrack and i currently do not see why i shold be
recording at 16/44, but i suspect you are talking to the original poster.

-andrejs

[Leo[_2_]]

wrote:
"Leo" wrote in message
...

Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition (running
on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking for
other options.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Leo


I think the marantz 671 fits that des ription
I just got one a month ago and am still working my way around it
george



I probably also throw into the mix that this is for a fixed installation
so needs to be a rackmount unit not a portable device
Leo

[Arny Krueger]

"rboy" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Oct 17, 11:45 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to
address
some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have and use).

Arny, can you comment for a second on the quality of the recordings
you get from the Microtrack?

I think they are just fine. My business partner who I talked into buying one
thinks his Microtrack recordings are just fine. There are some RAP regulars
who are very pleased with theirs, among them being this:

http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/piano.html

Have you done much with external mics?

I've only recorded with external mics. Some with an external mic preamp,
some with the internal mic preamps. The reason I used external mic preamps
is that I sometimes use the Microtrack as a safety recorder, where the
primary recorder is a CD recorder because extremely rapid delivery of
recorded media is required.

Aside from the phantom, issue I'm trying to find out if it's worth
pursuing for something that's not just suitable for rehearsal
recordings.

IME, the Microtrack is suitable for just about any kind of recording as long
as 2 channels suffices.

Was talking to someone who said not to go for the Zoom
H2 for external mic use, that it doesn't do them justice (though he's
not returning it because he loves it for non-critical stuff.)

Obviously it is what it is, but, given that, what's the audio
pleasure rating? If you put it among your other mics during a
concert does it at least give you a pleasing recording?

More than pleasing - accurate and as good as other alternatives including CD
recorder and DAW.

"rboy" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 17, 11:45 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to
address
some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have and use).


Arny, can you comment for a second on the quality of the recordings
you get from the Microtrack?

asking arnii for audio advice is about equal to asking your gardener to fly
the space shuttle
your better off with no advice that the garbage arnii puts out
george

[hank alrich]

Leo wrote:

Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of hi-res
digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced recorder for
recording general stereo programme material. Minimum resolution
44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition
(running on XP not Mac)

There's a Fostex CD recorder which can record 44.1k/24-bit but can only
store 44 minutes of audio at this rate which is no good so I'm looking
for other options.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Leo

That is high reolustion to you? the Korg MR series recorders do not
offer removable media, but they do offer high resolution, in spec terms,
and reports are that they sound extremely good.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 17, 9:32 am, Leo wrote:

My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition
(running on XP not Mac)

2 hours at 24/96 on removable media (4 GB) is not quite leading edge
technology but it's just starting to come down to a reasonable price
($50 or so), and not all flash memory recorders are capable of using 8
GB memory cards yet. I like the idea of a hard drive. Those two-hour
shows are always about ten minutes longer than the memory card you
have installed.

If you can get over the removable media thing and don't mind mini
jacks and no phantom power, I'd recommend the Korg MR-1. It has a
built-in 20 GB hard drive, a USB port for easy transfer to a computer,
and it records in a wide range of formats from 120 kbps MP3 up to 2.8
MHz DSD. I reviewed in Pro Audio Review August 2007:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0035/t.8221.html

I liked it a lot. The more "pro" version with XLR connectors, the
MR-1000, is about $1500 on the street, which is a bit more than I was
willing to spend on a portable recorder, but I was awfully tempted by
the MR-1. The mini jacks were really my only hangup, but for me that's
a big hangup.

[andrejs eigus]

2 hours at 24/96 on removable media (4 GB) is not quite leading edge
technology but it's just starting to come down to a reasonable price
($50 or so), and not all flash memory recorders are capable of using 8
GB memory cards yet. I like the idea of a hard drive. Those two-hour
shows are always about ten minutes longer than the memory card you
have installed.

A-DATA CF 16GB for $120:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820211170

i am using the 8GB version with HD-P2 and it works rock solid as of spring,
2007. i will wait until 16GB drops even further and, perhaps, replace the
existing card with it. i find 8GB, however, to be quite a reasonable amount
of space to keep recorded material.

hard drives are less reliable, have moving parts and produce noise...

If you can get over the removable media thing and don't mind mini
jacks and no phantom power, I'd recommend the Korg MR-1. It has a
built-in 20 GB hard drive, a USB port for easy transfer to a computer,
and it records in a wide range of formats from 120 kbps MP3 up to 2.8
MHz DSD. I reviewed in Pro Audio Review August 2007:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0035/t.8221.html

there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD - see this post by SOS editor Hugh
Robjohns:

http://tinyurl.com/ythxjf

-andrejs

[Leo[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On Oct 17, 9:32 am, Leo wrote:


My key criteria a
- Price - around £500 / $1000
- Uses removable media which can store at least 2 hrs at the above
resolutions
- PC connectivity to allow for easy import of audio into Audition
(running on XP not Mac)


2 hours at 24/96 on removable media (4 GB) is not quite leading edge
technology but it's just starting to come down to a reasonable price
($50 or so), and not all flash memory recorders are capable of using 8
GB memory cards yet. I like the idea of a hard drive. Those two-hour
shows are always about ten minutes longer than the memory card you
have installed.

If you can get over the removable media thing and don't mind mini
jacks and no phantom power, I'd recommend the Korg MR-1. It has a
built-in 20 GB hard drive, a USB port for easy transfer to a computer,
and it records in a wide range of formats from 120 kbps MP3 up to 2.8
MHz DSD. I reviewed in Pro Audio Review August 2007:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0035/t.8221.html

You're right, the removable media requirement might not be deal-breaker
if there was a damn good hard drive recorder which could do everything I
want.

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 17, 5:25 pm, "andrejs eigus" wrote:

A-DATA CF 16GB for $120:

Will your recorder take a 16GB card? Most of these are just catching
up with 8 GB cards. I find that to be quite expensive since I've been
buying 120 to 160 GB hard drives for about $30, brand new. A $120
memory card is only considered "removable media" by those with big
budgets. It's really fixed media and the recorder costs $120 more than
you think it does. It may be physically removable, but most people
don't have a stack of memory cards on the shelf. If you can load it on
to your computer faster with a card reader than through the USB or
Firewire port, you take it out, but you put it right back in.

i will wait until 16GB drops even further and, perhaps, replace the
existing card with it. i find 8GB, however, to be quite a reasonable amount
of space to keep recorded material.

It depends on what you're doing. I often record at weekend long (or
sometimes week long) festivals where I'm also mixing the live sound. I
appreciate the convenience of not having to change media during the
work day, and not having to dump it off on a computer at the end of
the day when all I want is dinner, a glass of wine and to soak in the
hot tub. If you're recording 2-hour shows a couple of times a month,
or production audio that you're going to use as soon as you get home
with the recording, a 2-hour capacity is probably OK.

hard drives are less reliable, have moving parts and produce noise...

I can't deny that they have moving parts, however I have never had a
problem with noise or reliability. Nothing lasts forever, and flash
memory has a finite number of write/read cycles. We don't know what
that is in terms of recording projects yet. I don't know any recording
engineers who have "used up" a card, but I do know some photographers
who have.

there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD

I won't argue with the numbers, but I will tell you that subjectively,
the DSD mode sounds better than 96 kHz PCM on the Korg MR-1. Both are
extremely quiet. Because of the gentle filter on the DSD output, the
high frequency response is actually flatter further out on PCM than in
the DSD mode, but either extends further than my ability to reproduce
it. And if you want a higher streaming rate, the MR-1000 does it at
twice the rate of the MR-1.

I wouldn't use DSD, though, as a routine thing. You really can't do
very much with it. You can't make a disk that plays in the car, or
even on the DVD player in the living room that plays SACDs, at least
not without a pretty expensive authoring system. Korg sells it as a
"future proof" recording system, and they provide a program to convert
it to any reasonable format. Some say that an MR-1 DSD recording
converted to 24/96 sounds better than a direct 24/96 PCM recording on
the same recorder, but you couldn't convince me of that. I'm not a
golden ear. If you insist, the Korg will go up to 192 khz sample rate.

Many of my recordings go into an archive and may never be played, or
might be played for the first time 10 or 15 years after they're made.
CDs (16-bit 44.1 kHz) will probably still be playable in the future.
Will anyone know what DSF, DSDFF, and WSD files are years from now? At
some point you have to cut the audiophile crap and be practical if
you're going to be a working professional.

I can't believe that I've been working with a Nomad Jukebox 3 as my
field recorder for about five years now, but I still haven't found
anything that I can justify as a replacement (yes, money is an object).

[Geoff]

rboy wrote:
On Oct 17, 11:45 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to
address some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have
and use).


Arny, can you comment for a second on the quality of the recordings
you get from the Microtrack? Have you done much with external mics?
Aside from the phantom, issue I'm trying to find out if it's worth
pursuing for something that's not just suitable for rehearsal
recordings. Was talking to someone who said not to go for the Zoom
H2 for external mic use, that it doesn't do them justice (though he's
not returning it because he loves it for non-critical stuff.)

I have had no problems or revealed no significant flaws using th H2 with
external mics ...

geoff

[Arny Krueger]

"andrejs eigus" wrote in message
...

there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD -

That's not speculation, it is fact. DSD makes major compromises in dynamic
range above 20 KHz. Standard PCM does not. However the audible significance
of this is nil.

see this post by SOS editor Hugh Robjohns:

http://tinyurl.com/ythxjf

He has the basic facts about DSD right. I don't know about some of his
conclusions.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 17, 9:00 am, "andrejs eigus" wrote:
as you can see, the Tascam HD-P2 is at #2 after Sound Devices 7xxx series
recorders. the usual retail price for the Tascam HD-P2 is around $1000
but i am sure you may find a better price.

#2 i meant in terms of the noise-floor tests:

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf

test

[andrejs eigus]

A-DATA CF 16GB for $120:

Will your recorder take a 16GB card? Most of these are just catching
up with 8 GB cards.

this i don't know yet. i will write to Tascam and ask them before i get it,
of course. theoretically, it shouldn't make a difference..

I find that to be quite expensive since I've been
buying 120 to 160 GB hard drives for about $30, brand new. A $120
memory card is only considered "removable media" by those with big
budgets. It's really fixed media and the recorder costs $120 more than
you think it does. It may be physically removable, but most people
don't have a stack of memory cards on the shelf. If you can load it on
to your computer faster with a card reader than through the USB or
Firewire port, you take it out, but you put it right back in.

i consider CF being a fixed media too, as i rarely pull it out of the
recorder, since the firewire connection is available, and also because i'm
afraid this process would eventually result in wear and tear of the card
socket.

i will wait until 16GB drops even further and, perhaps, replace the
existing card with it. i find 8GB, however, to be quite a reasonable
amount
of space to keep recorded material.

It depends on what you're doing. I often record at weekend long (or
sometimes week long) festivals where I'm also mixing the live sound. I
appreciate the convenience of not having to change media during the
work day, and not having to dump it off on a computer at the end of
the day when all I want is dinner, a glass of wine and to soak in the
hot tub.

but having a dinner and transferring files from the CF card to your computer
are not mutually exclusive. i mean, you can leave the copying process in
the background while having a dinner and/or a glass of wine. i find,
however, that with my laptop PC the firewire connection of the HD-P2 is a
bit on the slow side - i get only about 3 MB/s read speed, which isn't all
that really fast... i believe this has something to do with the 4-pin 1394
port on my laptop, as only 6-pin interface will provide enough power for
better transfer speed. i have encountered this same situation with some
external 2.5" HDD USB drives, as higher voltage is required for better
transfer speed. unless a USB power-cable is supplied and supported by such
a drive, the transfer speed remains rather slow. once i also connect a USB
power-cable, in addition to USB data cable, the transfer speed increases
dramatically. the new 2.5" Lacie drives seem to have power sharing cable
included in the package.

If you're recording 2-hour shows a couple of times a month,
or production audio that you're going to use as soon as you get home
with the recording, a 2-hour capacity is probably OK.

8 GB is not 2 hours but rather 4.1 hours @ at 24/96, and 8.2 hours at 24/48.
i was thinking a CF card with 16 GB capacity would double the max recording
time.

Many of my recordings go into an archive and may never be played, or
might be played for the first time 10 or 15 years after they're made.
CDs (16-bit 44.1 kHz) will probably still be playable in the future.
Will anyone know what DSF, DSDFF, and WSD files are years from now? At
some point you have to cut the audiophile crap and be practical if
you're going to be a working professional.

agreed.

I can't believe that I've been working with a Nomad Jukebox 3 as my
field recorder for about five years now, but I still haven't found
anything that I can justify as a replacement (yes, money is an object).

:-)

but "life outruns dream"!

-andrejs

[Paul Stamler]

"andrejs eigus" wrote in message
...
If you can get over the removable media thing and don't mind mini
jacks and no phantom power, I'd recommend the Korg MR-1. It has a
built-in 20 GB hard drive, a USB port for easy transfer to a computer,
and it records in a wide range of formats from 120 kbps MP3 up to 2.8
MHz DSD. I reviewed in Pro Audio Review August 2007:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0035/t.8221.html

there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD - see this post by SOS editor Hugh
Robjohns:

http://tinyurl.com/ythxjf

The ear can't hear as high as that;
Still it ought to please any passing bat...

Seriously, the 2.8MHz DSD ought to be plenty good enough for anything it's
likely to be used for. And it has the advantage that you can convert it to
damned near any format you like, so you could get a 48kHz or 96kHz file for
video and a 44.1kHz file for CD use with only one conversion (decimation)
per format. If you start with 24/96 you have to sample-rate convert to get
to 44.1kHz.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 18, 1:04 am, "andrejs eigus" wrote:

Will your recorder take a 16GB card?
this i don't know yet. i will write to Tascam and ask them before i get it,
of course. theoretically, it shouldn't make a difference..

Theoretically, but a lot of things that haven't been invented yet
weren't anticipated in the design. I know that a recent firmware
update to the Roland R-09 recorder was issued that allowed it to
accommodate 8GB memory cards. Previously the limit was 4 GB. And I
believe the Zoom H4 recorder still maxes out at 2 GB, though I think
the H2, a newer model, can accommodate a 4 GB card.

The applications for memory cards are growing faster than the people
who write the code that talks to the card can keep up. Originally they
were designed for still cameras and grew in size as camera resolution
increased. Cameras are still what's driving the market, not audio
recorders, but now they take movies, so that eats up a lot of space
fast, which is what prompted the 8 and 16 and who-knows-when-32 GB
cards to come to market.

i consider CF being a fixed media too, as i rarely pull it out of the
recorder, since the firewire connection is available, and also because i'm
afraid this process would eventually result in wear and tear of the card
socket.

It can, and does.

but having a dinner and transferring files from the CF card to your computer
are not mutually exclusive. i mean, you can leave the copying process in
the background while having a dinner and/or a glass of wine. i find,
however, that with my laptop PC the firewire connection of the HD-P2 is a
bit on the slow side - i get only about 3 MB/s read speed, which isn't all
that really fast...

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical. If I don't check the backup thoroughly
(and I mean listen to it in several places, not just take confidence
that I didn't get an error message and the file is there) and erase
the memory card, I may have lost my entire day's work. I'd rather
trust my first generation to last until I get home and do backups
there. Also, if I have a laptop computer in the hotel room, chances
are I'll go on line with it, and who knows what evils lurk . . . And
if it takes a couple of hours to transfer the data from the memory
card to the computer's hard drive, then I want to make CD or DVD
backups, that's another step and more time. Argue all you want and
talk about what YOU do. I just don't want to work that way. I prefer
to put my trust in a dedicated hard drive.

i believe this has something to do with the 4-pin 1394
port on my laptop, as only 6-pin interface will provide enough power for
better transfer speed. i have encountered this same situation with some
external 2.5" HDD USB drives, as higher voltage is required for better
transfer speed.

I've always used the external power supply when transferring files
from an external device to a computer. I don't have any of those plug-
and-play little drives, just some full sized drives in cases that have
a power supply input. And when connecting a recorder to the computer,
I always externally power the recorder.

8 GB is not 2 hours but rather 4.1 hours @ at 24/96, and 8.2 hours at 24/48.

Yes, I can do the arithmetic. But not all recorders accommodate 8 GB
cards, and suppose I'm recording for 9 hours without a break? When I
started using a recorder that had 20 or more hours of storage, I've
got into the habit of leaving the recorder running all day. When I'm
doing the PA mix (and usually the monitor mix as well) plus jumping
down from the mix position to help set up the next act on stage, if
I've stopped the recorder at the end of the last set, sometimes I'm
distracted enough to forget to start the recorder again until after a
song or two.

Besides, sometimes the announcer's talk between sets is valuable to
someone listening to the recording years later. He or she may provide
some information about the group (like personnel, for example, or
instruments) that isn't otherwise documented.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 17, 5:25 pm, "andrejs eigus" wrote:

A-DATA CF 16GB for $120:

Will your recorder take a 16GB card? Most of these are just catching
up with 8 GB cards.

In fact, 8 GB is relatively huge as long as you don't confuse it with an
archive.

I find that to be quite expensive since I've been
buying 120 to 160 GB hard drives for about $30, brand new.

Yeah, but powering them and carrying them and their power sources around can
be a hassle.

A $120
memory card is only considered "removable media" by those with big
budgets.

I've been keeping my Microtrack fed with a few 2 GB cards I picked up at
Micro Center for less than $20 each. I have a 4 GB card, too.

It's really fixed media and the recorder costs $120 more than
you think it does.

I would say that you're arguing from the extremes, not actual practice. I
have 5 CF cards totalling over 10 GB that all together didn't cost me $120.
That's removable media!

It may be physically removable, but most people
don't have a stack of memory cards on the shelf.

I usually carry mine in my Microtrack box.

If you can load it on
to your computer faster with a card reader than through the USB or
Firewire port, you take it out, but you put it right back in.

The file transfer speed is often limited by the speed of the CF card itself.
So the exact means you use for the transfer can be moot. I admit it, I
start a lot of file transfers and multitask doing something else for a
while. A few posts on RAP and its all done! ;-)

i will wait until 16GB drops even further and, perhaps, replace the
existing card with it. i find 8GB, however, to be quite a reasonable
amount
of space to keep recorded material.

For me 4 GB is a lot for 2 channels.

It depends on what you're doing. I often record at weekend long (or
sometimes week long) festivals where I'm also mixing the live sound.

Sounds familiar. The good news about festivals is that there are often a lot
of breaks. I generally switch out cards when they are less than 1/2 full so
that if I miss a switch, I'm not hung out to dry.

I appreciate the convenience of not having to change media during the
work day, and not having to dump it off on a computer at the end of
the day when all I want is dinner, a glass of wine and to soak in the
hot tub.

Hence removable media.

If you're recording 2-hour shows a couple of times a month,
or production audio that you're going to use as soon as you get home
with the recording, a 2-hour capacity is probably OK.

I also admit that a lot of my applications for the Microtrack are as safety
machine. We've found that safety recordings at 192 Kb keep all the customers
fooled all the time. At 192, a 2 GB card wants to last forever.

hard drives are less reliable, have moving parts and produce noise...

They are also big and heavy and relatively fragile. IME the most common
shock-related failure of portable digital recorders and players with
removable media is either the cables, batteries or the removable media
slipping out of the device! That takes a lot of hard knocking about!

I can't deny that they have moving parts, however I have never had a
problem with noise or reliability. Nothing lasts forever, and flash
memory has a finite number of write/read cycles. We don't know what
that is in terms of recording projects yet.

Many of us know what it isn't, and that is any time soon.

I don't know any recording
engineers who have "used up" a card, but I do know some photographers
who have.

IME hard drives are among the least reliable items around. They can easily
fail right after install, and they can easily fail on the shelf.


there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to
compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD

I won't argue with the numbers, but I will tell you that subjectively,
the DSD mode sounds better than 96 kHz PCM on the Korg MR-1.

I'll remain unconvinced until I see the results of a DBT. Maybe Korg's
format conversion software has some egregious flaw. There's no logical
reason for DSD to sound any different than the PCM we usually compare it too
except under rare and obscure conditions.

Both are
extremely quiet. Because of the gentle filter on the DSD output, the
high frequency response is actually flatter further out on PCM than in
the DSD mode, but either extends further than my ability to reproduce
it.

That, and record it, or hear it. Just about every mic I've ever used other
than the small omni measurement mics take a big dive somewhere between 8 KHz
and 20 KHz, particularly off-axis.

Many of my recordings go into an archive and may never be played, or
might be played for the first time 10 or 15 years after they're made.
CDs (16-bit 44.1 kHz) will probably still be playable in the future.

Furthermore, there's even more evidence that 16/44 is all that we need for
music:

"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio
Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007.

I can't believe that I've been working with a Nomad Jukebox 3 as my
field recorder for about five years now, but I still haven't found
anything that I can justify as a replacement (yes, money is an object).

I used up the line input jack on mine. :-(

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 18, 1:04 am, "andrejs eigus" wrote:

but having a dinner and transferring files from the CF card to your
computer
are not mutually exclusive. i mean, you can leave the copying process in
the background while having a dinner and/or a glass of wine. i find,
however, that with my laptop PC the firewire connection of the HD-P2 is a
bit on the slow side - i get only about 3 MB/s read speed, which isn't
all
that really fast...

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical.

That's irrelevant in this case because the unattended operation can be
repeated as needed, if it fails.

If I don't check the backup thoroughly
(and I mean listen to it in several places, not just take confidence
that I didn't get an error message and the file is there) and erase
the memory card, I may have lost my entire day's work.

That's why removable media is so cool.

[Arny Krueger]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"andrejs eigus" wrote in message
...

If you can get over the removable media thing and don't mind mini
jacks and no phantom power, I'd recommend the Korg MR-1.

To me that's like saying "If you don't mind castration and
disembowelment..." ;-)

I've already scrapped one field recorder due to a minijack on the input,
and suffered with a device with no phantom power for three long years.

It has a
built-in 20 GB hard drive, a USB port for easy transfer to a computer,
and it records in a wide range of formats from 120 kbps MP3 up to 2.8
MHz DSD. I reviewed in Pro Audio Review August 2007:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0035/t.8221.html

there's a speculation that 2.8 Mhz DSD isn't enough in order to
compensate
signal to noise ratio with 1-bit technology, and that the PCM 24/96 has a
better S/N ratio at 40khz than DSD - see this post by SOS editor Hugh
Robjohns:

http://tinyurl.com/ythxjf

The ear can't hear as high as that;
Still it ought to please any passing bat...

Agreed.

Seriously, the 2.8MHz DSD ought to be plenty good enough for anything it's
likely to be used for. And it has the advantage that you can convert it to
damned near any format you like, so you could get a 48kHz or 96kHz file
for
video and a 44.1kHz file for CD use with only one conversion (decimation)
per format. If you start with 24/96 you have to sample-rate convert to get
to 44.1kHz.

Those of us who have been using Audition/CEP all these years have been
enjoying sonically transparent format conversions for at least half a
decade.

24/96 is a superset format for DSD as far as dynamic range above 20 KHz
goes, but it really doesn't matter because of the more severe limitations of
real world recording, playback and listening.

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 18, 7:59 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical.

That's irrelevant in this case because the unattended operation can be
repeated as needed, if it fails.

But you have to know that it's failed before you know to repeat it.
And if it fails again and I don't have a pocket full of memory, I have
to make a decision - do I reformat this card that I haven't backed up
and lose a day's work, or do I leave it in hopes of salvaging it (or
backing it up) later, and not record today? Or find a K-Mart and buy
another memory card?

That's why removable media is so cool.

Only if you have enough of it to replace it with fresh media. Digital
media has made us think differently about media cost. We used to
budget for about 30 7" reels of 1/4" tape per stage for at weekend
festival. Then we budgeted for a dozen or so DATs. At the end of the
festival, those tapes would go on the shelf. Today, people think that
digital storage media just comes with the territory, so there's little
or no budget for it or even look at it. So they wouldn't think about
putting memory cards on the shelf, and they don't always think about
how to get from the memory card to a better long term storage medium.

This is just one of those things that tends to fall into the cracks so
it's up to us workers to take care of it. At the end of the day, there
was someone who went around to the stages, collected the day's tapes
and logs (if any), boxed them up, and the next morning, bring out
another box of tape for the next day's recordings. But today, they
don't come around to collect memory cards, sit in their hotel rooms
and back them up, then distribute the memory cards the next morning.

It's not a technical problem, it's an organization problem. But it's
still a problem. That's why they still try to find as many DAT
recorders as they can round up for these things.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 18, 7:59 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical.

That's irrelevant in this case because the unattended operation can be
repeated as needed, if it fails.

But you have to know that it's failed before you know to repeat it.

IME failures are hard to miss. The usual failure is that the transfer
doesn't start properly.

And if it fails again and I don't have a pocket full of memory, I have
to make a decision - do I reformat this card that I haven't backed up
and lose a day's work, or do I leave it in hopes of salvaging it (or
backing it up) later, and not record today? Or find a K-Mart and buy
another memory card?

The solution to that is to walk up to the job prepared for both human and
technical failures. See my comments about carrying more than twice as much
storage as the job takes as planned.

That's why removable media is so cool.

Only if you have enough of it to replace it with fresh media.

Let's look at the leading alternative - fixed media that you can't replace
in the field. Now is that scary or what?

Last time I looked, both KMart and Walgreens were kinda short on replacement
hard drives. ;-)

Digital
media has made us think differently about media cost. We used to
budget for about 30 7" reels of 1/4" tape per stage for at weekend
festival. Then we budgeted for a dozen or so DATs. At the end of the
festival, those tapes would go on the shelf. Today, people think that
digital storage media just comes with the territory, so there's little
or no budget for it or even look at it. So they wouldn't think about
putting memory cards on the shelf, and they don't always think about
how to get from the memory card to a better long term storage medium.

Poor planning can really be a PITA, no? ;-)

This is just one of those things that tends to fall into the cracks so
it's up to us workers to take care of it.

Exactly.

At the end of the day, there
was someone who went around to the stages, collected the day's tapes
and logs (if any), boxed them up, and the next morning, bring out
another box of tape for the next day's recordings. But today, they
don't come around to collect memory cards, sit in their hotel rooms
and back them up, then distribute the memory cards the next morning.

The festivals I work have kids that run the burned CDs back to the office. I
walk in the door with enough CF to do the whole festival twice. I back the
CF to hard drive before the next festival comes around which is a little as
a day or two away.

It's not a technical problem, it's an organization problem.

Exactly. And if you stake your life on anybody's organization but your own,
IME you're taking a big risk.

But it's still a problem. That's why they still try to find as many DAT
recorders as they can round up for these things.

Sounds very ugly to me. Everybody I know who used to use DAT has gotten out
of it in the past year, if not before.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Only if you have enough of it to replace it with fresh media. Digital
media has made us think differently about media cost. We used to
budget for about 30 7" reels of 1/4" tape per stage for at weekend
festival. Then we budgeted for a dozen or so DATs. At the end of the
festival, those tapes would go on the shelf. Today, people think that
digital storage media just comes with the territory, so there's little
or no budget for it or even look at it. So they wouldn't think about
putting memory cards on the shelf, and they don't always think about
how to get from the memory card to a better long term storage medium.

And this, in short, is why I am still using DTRS and DAT tape, in spite
of them both being kind of flaky and the whole helical scan concept being
a lousy one.

There's just no better alternative for applications where you record a lot
and put it on the shelf for a long time. Oh, except analogue tape. I wind
up using that at festivals too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[rboy]

Arny, thanks for the very informative response. I think I hear the
sound of a wallet opening. : )

rboy





On Oct 17, 4:15 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"rboy" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Oct 17, 11:45 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
I see that they just came out with the Microtrack II that seems to
address
some non-critical issues with the first model (which I have and use).
Arny, can you comment for a second on the quality of the recordings
you get from the Microtrack?

I think they are just fine. My business partner who I talked into buying one
thinks his Microtrack recordings are just fine. There are some RAP regulars
who are very pleased with theirs, among them being this:

http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/piano.html

Have you done much with external mics?

I've only recorded with external mics. Some with an external mic preamp,
some with the internal mic preamps. The reason I used external mic preamps
is that I sometimes use the Microtrack as a safety recorder, where the
primary recorder is a CD recorder because extremely rapid delivery of
recorded media is required.

Aside from the phantom, issue I'm trying to find out if it's worth
pursuing for something that's not just suitable for rehearsal
recordings.

IME, the Microtrack is suitable for just about any kind of recording as long
as 2 channels suffices.

Was talking to someone who said not to go for the Zoom
H2 for external mic use, that it doesn't do them justice (though he's
not returning it because he loves it for non-critical stuff.)
Obviously it is what it is, but, given that, what's the audio
pleasure rating? If you put it among your other mics during a
concert does it at least give you a pleasing recording?

More than pleasing - accurate and as good as other alternatives including CD
recorder and DAW.

[hank alrich]

wrote:

No recorder in that price range has analog audio electronics and
convertors that make recoding at 96k worthwhile.

Terry Manning is mixing the new Widespread Panic album to a Korg MR1000,
and he is pretty serious about quality, and has available many other
high quality options. He thinks it is delivering outstanding audio
quality. This is via the line inputs, coming from a console output, the
console being fed by a PT rig that is being used primarily as a
recording and playback "machine".

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[andrejs eigus]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Cameras are still what's driving the market, not audio
recorders, but now they take movies, so that eats up a lot of space
fast, which is what prompted the 8 and 16 and who-knows-when-32 GB
cards to come to market.

soon enough, as it seems:

http://gadgets.fosfor.se/64-gb-compa...-from-samsung/

Argue all you want and talk about what YOU do. I just don't want to work
that way. I prefer
to put my trust in a dedicated hard drive.

i don't argue: there are different strokes for different folks. i thought
we were simply discussing our preferable storage media formats for field
recording work and expressing our opinions. i can also see that your
application is different from my application, as i do not record in the
festivals.

I've always used the external power supply when transferring files
from an external device to a computer. I don't have any of those plug-
and-play little drives, just some full sized drives in cases that have
a power supply input. And when connecting a recorder to the computer,
I always externally power the recorder.

this is a matter of choice.

be well,

-andrejs

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Leo wrote:

Hi all,

I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of
hi-res digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced
recorder for recording general stereo programme material. Minimum
resolution 44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.

Fostex FR2.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich wrote:
wrote:

No recorder in that price range has analog audio electronics and
convertors that make recoding at 96k worthwhile.

Terry Manning is mixing the new Widespread Panic album to a Korg MR1000,
and he is pretty serious about quality, and has available many other
high quality options. He thinks it is delivering outstanding audio
quality. This is via the line inputs, coming from a console output, the
console being fed by a PT rig that is being used primarily as a
recording and playback "machine".

He's going to have more issues with the D/A converters on the PT box
than anything else.

Is he using the DSD format on the Korg or PCM? I worry about the whole
transcoding process, since eventually I assume he needs to come out with
a 44.1/16 disc at the end.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tobiah]

believe the Zoom H4 recorder still maxes out at 2 GB, though I think
the H2, a newer model, can accommodate a 4 GB card.

I saw something about using a 4 gig card with the H2, so I bought one.
I can record to the card, but it then processes for about 5 minutes before
letting me go back to the menu. I also can not format the 4gig in the unit.
I did upgrade to the latest firmware, but I wasn't able to do it from the
4gig card, and things didn't change afterward.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Leo[_2_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:
Leo wrote:


Hi all,


I'm interested to get people's experiences and recommendations of
hi-res digital recorders. I'm in the market for a modestly priced
recorder for recording general stereo programme material. Minimum
resolution 44.1/24-bit but ideally 96k/24-bit.


Fostex FR2.



Here's what I'm looking at, at the moment:
Fostex CR500 - CD Recorder - can recorder at 24/96 but major capacity
issues. A 90 min CD at 24/44.1 holds about 50 mins. Even if it could
hold an hour I'd have been happy.

Tascam DV-RA1000 - pricey animal but can record all the way up to 24/192
on DVD+RW. You can't play them on a regular DVD player but honestly I
doubt I ever would.

Comments?

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical.

That's irrelevant in this case because the unattended operation can be
repeated as needed, if it fails.

That only works where there isn't a deadline, which is one of the points
that distinguishes hobby and professional practice.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Arny Krueger]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

I don't trust computers enough to leave then completely unattended
when the result is critical.

That's irrelevant in this case because the unattended operation can be
repeated as needed, if it fails.

That only works where there isn't a deadline, which is one of the points
that distinguishes hobby and professional practice.

Right - professionals schedule their time so that jobs can be completed on
schedule, even when everything doesn't go right the first time.

[Mike Rivers]

On Oct 18, 7:19 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Right - professionals schedule their time so that jobs can be completed on
schedule, even when everything doesn't go right the first time.

Professionals often have to work to other peoples' schedules. And they
need sleep, too. And beer, and hot tubs.

Since none of the recorders we've been discussing (except for Scott
who still uses tape) uses media that can be practically put directly
on the shelf even though it can be physically removed from the
recorder, it has to be transferred to some other medium eventually for
storage. It's my preference to do that when I'm not under pressure
with real time tasks.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 18, 7:19 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Right - professionals schedule their time so that jobs can be completed
on
schedule, even when everything doesn't go right the first time.

Professionals often have to work to other peoples' schedules. And they
need sleep, too. And beer, and hot tubs.

Given the actual amount of time required, this is a tempest in a teapot.

Since none of the recorders we've been discussing (except for Scott
who still uses tape) uses media that can be practically put directly
on the shelf even though it can be physically removed from the
recorder,

Huh?

I have a number of pieces of CF sitting on a shelf in my store room.

it has to be transferred to some other medium eventually for storage.

It may be preferable to offload CF to other media this week, because of the
relative economics. However, the cost of CF has been falling at the usual
rapid speed for solid state memory, or faster. For example late this spring
I paidover $40 for a 4GB CF card. Today, I can get 4 GB for more like $30.

The reason why I offload the files I record on CF is to edit them with a
PC. This has nothing to do with backup, even though a backup function is
accomplished at the same time.

It's my preference to do that when I'm not under pressure with real time
tasks.

Scheduling that time is no biggie because it is not a lot of time. The
operation need not be attended except at the start, and sometime after the
finish. Probability of success of a copy run that starts sucessfully is
extremely high.

There are few random effects - if you've ever started a successful copy with
a given set of equipment, it will work the next time. CF is way, way more
reliable than analog tape or DAT. DAT in particular could be a bit of a
crap shoot, especially for a long recording. Besides, I don't think there
were such things as 4 or 8 hour recordings on standard audio DAT tape.

We're not talking about copying or loading analog tapes or DAT tapes which
is usually done in real time. Actual obseved speed for copying off CF has
been something like 1/20 of recorded time with slow CF, faster with fast CF.
IOW I think I've been copying 1 hour's worth of 16/44 recordings in 3
minutes or less.