[Dave]

Hi all;

I am recording a performance tomorrow (audio and video). I am working with
the setup in my house tonight to get things connected right. Here's what I
was planning on doing:

Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced line outs to a
Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine, no problems.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the Firebox
mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it out to
the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect it this
way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume this is
because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on the camera
is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other
way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and it works
okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy (more so than
the Fireboxes).

Any help would be appreciated.

[nebulax]

On Sep 28, 11:31 pm, "Dave" wrote:
Hi all;

I am recording a performance tomorrow (audio and video). I am working with
the setup in my house tonight to get things connected right. Here's what I
was planning on doing:

Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced line outs to a
Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine, no problems.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the Firebox
mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it out to
the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect it this
way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume this is
because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on the camera
is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other
way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and it works
okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy (more so than
the Fireboxes).

Any help would be appreciated.


Could you just use a split output off the pair of Rodes, and feed that
into your camera?

-Neb

[Paul Stamler]

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced line outs to a
Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine, no problems.

Nitpicking: The NT5s are cardioid last I checked, as they'd certainly better
be if they're going into an ORTF arrangement.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the
Firebox
mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it out to
the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect it this
way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume this is
because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on the camera
is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other
way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and it works
okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy (more so than
the Fireboxes).

Buy or rent a couple of decent quality DI boxes and connect the outputs of
the Firebox to their inputs; connect their outputs to the camera's mic
inputs.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"nebulax" wrote in message
oups.com...

Could you just use a split output off the pair of Rodes, and feed that
into your camera?

With a stereo mic splitter, yeah, but it'd need its own phantom supply.
Easier to use a DI.

Peace,
Paul

[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:12:23 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

Could you just use a split output off the pair of Rodes, and feed that
into your camera?

With a stereo mic splitter, yeah, but it'd need its own phantom supply.
Easier to use a DI.

That's why I often use a NT4 for video. 2 NT5s is one unit, with an
internal battery powering option.

[Scott Dorsey]

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the Firebox
mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it out to
the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect it this
way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume this is
because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on the camera
is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other
way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and it works
okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy (more so than
the Fireboxes).

Welcome to the marvelous world of crappy consumer video gear! Radio Shack
will sell you a padded cable that will allow you to put line level unbalanced
signal in and get "video mike" level out. You will also want an audio isolation
transformer to keep the polluted video camera grounds from getting into your
recording gear. Of course there's stil nothing you can do to keep that awful
AGC from pumping away.

You may find double system is the way to go. Record a guide track on the
camera and synch in post.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Dave]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote in message
...
Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced line outs to a
Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine, no problems.

Nitpicking: The NT5s are cardioid last I checked, as they'd certainly
better
be if they're going into an ORTF arrangement.

I have the NT45O Omni capsules on them. After doing some reading I will
switch them back to cardioid.


Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the
Firebox
mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it out to
the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect it this
way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume this is
because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on the
camera
is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other
way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and it works
okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy (more so
than
the Fireboxes).

Buy or rent a couple of decent quality DI boxes and connect the outputs of
the Firebox to their inputs; connect their outputs to the camera's mic
inputs.

I'll give it a try. Thanks!



Peace,
Paul

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave" wrote ...
I am recording a performance tomorrow (audio and video).
I am working with the setup in my house tonight to get things
connected right. Here's what I was planning on doing:

Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced
line outs to a Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works
fine, no problems.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it
to the Firebox mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the
signal, then send it out to the video camera via the MIC input
on the camera.

WHAT camera? What kind of mic input does it have?
Stereo 3.5mm mini-phone? XLR?
Does it have AGC? Can you turn it off?
If you are recording a decent track elsewhere,
what kind of audio do you expect from the
camcorder?

Why a separate mic for video anyway?

When I connect it this way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the
video recording. I assume this is because the Firebox outputs
are line level and the mic input on the camera is mic level. Is
there any way I can do this? I have tried it the other way
around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus)
and it works okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously
very crappy (more so than the Fireboxes).

WHY are you recording audio on the camera?
If you are going to do any kind of editing, take the good
audio recording and substitute it for the lousy one that
you will get from the camcorder (regardless of how you
connect anything).

Assuming you have a typical small-potatoes camcorder with
a 3.5mm mini-phone mic input, the standard way of
interfacing with "normal" audio equipment is to use an
adapter box such as any of the models made by Beachtek
www.beachtek.com and others.

Or just run the AT825 directly into the camcorder. If the
mic preamps in the (unidentified) camcorder are as bad
as most, dunno why any heroic measures are even worth
the effort?

[Dave]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote ...
I am recording a performance tomorrow (audio and video). I am working
with the setup in my house tonight to get things connected right. Here's
what I was planning on doing:

Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced
line outs to a Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine,
no problems.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it
to the Firebox mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then
send it out to the video camera via the MIC input
on the camera.

WHAT camera?

Panasonic PVGS65
What kind of mic input does it have?

Stereo 3.5mm mini-phone?
Yes
XLR? - No. Unfortunately
Does it have AGC? Can you turn it off?
Yes, I don't think so.
If you are recording a decent track elsewhere,
what kind of audio do you expect from the
camcorder?
I am not too versed in syncing audio/video so I was hoping to get a
"somewhat useable" audio track on the videotape incase I can't get the audio
synced to the video.

Why a separate mic for video anyway?

When I connect it this way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video
recording. I assume this is because the Firebox outputs are line level
and the mic input on the camera is mic level. Is there any way I can do
this? I have tried it the other way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera
Line Out - Presonus)
and it works okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy
(more so than the Fireboxes).

WHY are you recording audio on the camera?
If you are going to do any kind of editing, take the good
audio recording and substitute it for the lousy one that
you will get from the camcorder (regardless of how you
connect anything).

Assuming you have a typical small-potatoes camcorder with
a 3.5mm mini-phone mic input, the standard way of
interfacing with "normal" audio equipment is to use an
adapter box such as any of the models made by Beachtek
www.beachtek.com and others.

Or just run the AT825 directly into the camcorder. If the
mic preamps in the (unidentified) camcorder are as bad as most, dunno why
any heroic measures are even worth the effort?

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave" wrote ...
Does it have AGC? Can you turn it off?
Yes, I don't think so.

With AGC, you will not get a very good track for music
no matter what you are feeding it with. Plug the AT825
directly into the camcorder and get on with your life.

I am not too versed in syncing audio/video so I was hoping
to get a "somewhat useable" audio track on the videotape
incase I can't get the audio synced to the video.

You didn't say what the "performance" is. Drama?
Popular (short-form) music? Classical (long-form)
music? etc. etc.

Syncing separate audio with video is not that difficult these
days using common video editing applications for PC or Mac.
The worst-case is classical (long-form) music. But even there,
with creative edit points you can "slip" the video back into
sync with the good audio track without too much dificulty.
Especially if you have something to "cover" the edit points
like some "B-roll" footage such as audience reaction shots
or a wide "cover shot" from another camcorder.

[Dave]

Hi Richard;

I will do that then see if I can take the other audio track (the Rode NT5s)
and sync it after. Hopefully I can get it to work, if not I can live with
the AT825 going directly into the recorder.

It's a live band doing an acoustic then two electric sets.

Thanks for your help!

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote ...
Does it have AGC? Can you turn it off?
Yes, I don't think so.

With AGC, you will not get a very good track for music
no matter what you are feeding it with. Plug the AT825
directly into the camcorder and get on with your life.

I am not too versed in syncing audio/video so I was hoping
to get a "somewhat useable" audio track on the videotape incase I can't
get the audio synced to the video.

You didn't say what the "performance" is. Drama?
Popular (short-form) music? Classical (long-form)
music? etc. etc.
Syncing separate audio with video is not that difficult these days using
common video editing applications for PC or Mac.
The worst-case is classical (long-form) music. But even there,
with creative edit points you can "slip" the video back into
sync with the good audio track without too much dificulty.
Especially if you have something to "cover" the edit points
like some "B-roll" footage such as audience reaction shots
or a wide "cover shot" from another camcorder.

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave" wrote ...
I will do that then see if I can take the other audio track (the Rode
NT5s) and sync it after. Hopefully I can get it to work, if not I can
live with the AT825 going directly into the recorder.

It's a live band doing an acoustic then two electric sets.

Then chances are that the audio and video will stay in
sync through the set without any heroic measures.

[Dave]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote ...
I will do that then see if I can take the other audio track (the Rode
NT5s) and sync it after. Hopefully I can get it to work, if not I can
live with the AT825 going directly into the recorder.

It's a live band doing an acoustic then two electric sets.

Then chances are that the audio and video will stay in
sync through the set without any heroic measures.
Can I call you if it doesn't?? Hehehehehe......

Cheers.

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote in ...
Then chances are that the audio and video will stay in
sync through the set without any heroic measures.

Can I call you if it doesn't?? Hehehehehe......

Syncing separate sound to video of music performances
is discussed regularly over on news:rec.video.desktop
People do it all the time and it isn't difficult with modern
equipment and computer applications.

[Arny Krueger]

"Dave" wrote in message

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote ...
I will do that then see if I can take the other audio
track (the Rode NT5s) and sync it after. Hopefully I
can get it to work, if not I can live with the AT825
going directly into the recorder. It's a live band doing an acoustic
then two electric
sets.

Then chances are that the audio and video will stay in
sync through the set without any heroic measures.

Can I call you if it doesn't?? Hehehehehe......

Richard isn't pulling your leg - resynching sound and video is just one of
those things that you learn to do. With modern editors you just enlarge the
time scale until you can nudge the timing one frame at a time. The tricky
part such as it is, will be finding a sound and an image that clearly
establish a sync point and can be used as a guide.

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Dave" wrote
"Richard Crowley" wrote
"Dave" wrote ...
I will do that then see if I can take the other audio
track (the Rode NT5s) and sync it after. Hopefully I
can get it to work, if not I can live with the AT825
going directly into the recorder. It's a live band doing an acoustic
then two electric
sets.

Then chances are that the audio and video will stay in
sync through the set without any heroic measures.

Can I call you if it doesn't?? Hehehehehe......

Richard isn't pulling your leg - resynching sound and video is just one of
those things that you learn to do. With modern editors you just enlarge the
time scale until you can nudge the timing one frame at a time. The tricky
part such as it is, will be finding a sound and an image that clearly
establish a sync point and can be used as a guide.

Watching TV these days illustrates that no-one ever bothers doing that though.
Lip sync is a long-lost 'art'. I'd say you're lucky to see it as close as only
one frame out.

Graham

[Richard Crowley]

"Eeyore" wrote ...
Watching TV these days illustrates that no-one ever bothers doing that
though.
Lip sync is a long-lost 'art'. I'd say you're lucky to see it as close
as only
one frame out.

It is likely an artifact of the distribution mechanism(s)
rather than sloppy production. Note the several products
available in the broadcast market to delay the audio or video
data to re-establish lip-sync. Clearly not enough broadcasters
are using these things.

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Eeyore" wrote ...
Watching TV these days illustrates that no-one ever
bothers doing that though.
Lip sync is a long-lost 'art'. I'd say you're lucky to
see it as close as only
one frame out.

It is likely an artifact of the distribution mechanism(s)
rather than sloppy production. Note the several products
available in the broadcast market to delay the audio or
video data to re-establish lip-sync. Clearly not enough
broadcasters are using these things.

They even exist as consumer products:

http://www.felston.com/

[Paul Stamler]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

Richard isn't pulling your leg - resynching sound and video is just one of
those things that you learn to do. With modern editors you just enlarge
the
time scale until you can nudge the timing one frame at a time. The tricky
part such as it is, will be finding a sound and an image that clearly
establish a sync point and can be used as a guide.

Here's a hint: shoot a bunch of "B-roll" -- audience shots, etc. -- which
you can use to cover up spots where you're re-synching the video.

Peace,
Paul

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:03:02 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

Watching TV these days illustrates that no-one ever bothers doing that though.
Lip sync is a long-lost 'art'. I'd say you're lucky to see it as close as only
one frame out.

In America it varies between something (that might possibly be
convincing if I were to actually see it, but I don't; I only
ever see one commercial TV show, but never miss *it*... whatever...)

And the amazingly convincingly realistic sound of _Survivor_ on CBS
Thursdays here in the boonies.

Contestants run around in progressively less clothing in seemingly
tropical settings, athletic competitions, etc., matched pretty
dramatically seamlessly with night-vision views of Machievellian
dramatic plotting.

Never willst thou hear the slightest artificiality of sound (all,
presumably, outdoors) or see the slightest of boom mics in camera. No
visible lighting artifacts, either. I'd bet large that no lighting is
used (not including the hokey "Council" lighting, etc.), but I'm a
lighting amateur (only stage experience) so could be fooled.

The seemlessness of the camera work is somehow less technically
striking to me than the sound. Done some of both; pix can be several
angles; sound is usually only one right take for a gig even remotely
like this.

Let us call this ART! Or, at least, 'art', if the technology is so
transparent. A famous SciFi quotation about the borderline between
technology and magic struggles to come to mind.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Richard Crowley]

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
In America it varies between something (that might possibly be
convincing if I were to actually see it, but I don't; I only
ever see one commercial TV show, but never miss *it*... whatever...)

And the amazingly convincingly realistic sound of _Survivor_ on CBS
Thursdays here in the boonies.
......
Never willst thou hear the slightest artificiality of sound (all,
presumably, outdoors) or see the slightest of boom mics in camera.

Doing sound for those "reality" shows is a regular topic
over on news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound

If it is *real* "reality" you want, let's turn the camera around
and get a shot of the poor sound guy with half a dozen (or
more) wireless receivers, a 12-channel mixer, and a multi-
track hard-drive recorder hanging from a strap around his
aching neck.

I'll admint that I don't see why people even watch any of
those "reality" shows at all.

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:03:02 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

Richard isn't pulling your leg - resynching sound and video is just one of
those things that you learn to do. With modern editors you just enlarge the
time scale until you can nudge the timing one frame at a time. The tricky
part such as it is, will be finding a sound and an image that clearly
establish a sync point and can be used as a guide.

Watching TV these days illustrates that no-one ever bothers doing that though.
Lip sync is a long-lost 'art'. I'd say you're lucky to see it as close as only
one frame out.

I think the producers get it right. Funny things happen in
distribution.

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote ...
In America it varies between something (that might
possibly be convincing if I were to actually see it, but
I don't; I only ever see one commercial TV show, but never miss *it*...
whatever...) And the amazingly convincingly realistic sound of
_Survivor_ on CBS Thursdays here in the boonies.
.....
Never willst thou hear the slightest artificiality of
sound (all, presumably, outdoors) or see the slightest
of boom mics in camera.

Doing sound for those "reality" shows is a regular topic
over on news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound

Thanks for the tip!

[Krazy Kanuck]

Dave, you'll find it quite easy to sync the audio to the video in your video
editing software....look for visual clues in the video track like the
drummer click-counting in a tune or just look at the waveforms on each of
the audio tracks to align them....
Len

--
.....Order the "Accordion Evolution" documentary of the Las Vegas
International Accordion Convention from my website:
http://users.accesscomm.ca/limbery/
....Del Sur Al Norte...Regina Sk. Canada Latin and South American Folk dance
band:
www.DelSurAlNorte.info
"Dave" wrote in message
...
Hi Richard;

I will do that then see if I can take the other audio track (the Rode
NT5s) and sync it after. Hopefully I can get it to work, if not I can
live with the AT825 going directly into the recorder.

It's a live band doing an acoustic then two electric sets.

Thanks for your help!

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote ...
Does it have AGC? Can you turn it off?
Yes, I don't think so.

With AGC, you will not get a very good track for music
no matter what you are feeding it with. Plug the AT825
directly into the camcorder and get on with your life.

I am not too versed in syncing audio/video so I was hoping
to get a "somewhat useable" audio track on the videotape incase I can't
get the audio synced to the video.

You didn't say what the "performance" is. Drama?
Popular (short-form) music? Classical (long-form)
music? etc. etc.
Syncing separate audio with video is not that difficult these days using
common video editing applications for PC or Mac.
The worst-case is classical (long-form) music. But even there,
with creative edit points you can "slip" the video back into
sync with the good audio track without too much dificulty.
Especially if you have something to "cover" the edit points
like some "B-roll" footage such as audience reaction shots
or a wide "cover shot" from another camcorder.

[Dave]

Hey;

It went pretty good last night. Thanks for all your advice everyone! Just
listening in to the audio there's lots of crowd noise but more of the band
than anything. Hopefully the video turned out, I'll get to that tonight.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Hi all;

I am recording a performance tomorrow (audio and video). I am working
with the setup in my house tonight to get things connected right. Here's
what I was planning on doing:

Audio:
Rode NT5s (omni's, ORTF) into an M-Audio DMP3 - balanced line outs to a
Presonus Firebox balanced line input. This works fine, no problems.

Video:
I was hoping to use an AT825 for this purpose and connect it to the
Firebox mic preamps, take a recording in 24/96 of the signal, then send it
out to the video camera via the MIC input on the camera. When I connect
it this way I get fuzz and hiss + sound on the video recording. I assume
this is because the Firebox outputs are line level and the mic input on
the camera is mic level. Is there any way I can do this? I have tried it
the other way around (AT825 - Camera - Camera Line Out - Presonus) and
it works okay but the preamps in the camera are obviously very crappy
(more so than the Fireboxes).

Any help would be appreciated.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:03:18 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

And the amazingly convincingly realistic sound of _Survivor_ on CBS
Thursdays here in the boonies.
.....
Never willst thou hear the slightest artificiality of sound (all,
presumably, outdoors) or see the slightest of boom mics in camera.

Doing sound for those "reality" shows is a regular topic
over on news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound

Thanks; I'll check it out!

If it is *real* "reality" you want, let's turn the camera around
and get a shot of the poor sound guy with half a dozen (or
more) wireless receivers, a 12-channel mixer, and a multi-
track hard-drive recorder hanging from a strap around his
aching neck.

Now *that* would be worth seeing. The 90% of the iceberg
that lies out of sight would be television for an adult
audience, though, so won't happen. Maybe a "making of" DVD?
I'd certainly spring for one.

I'll admit that I don't see why people even watch any of
those "reality" shows at all.

Don't know about any others, but _Survivor_ is a cross
between a study in Game Theory and a perfectly blank mind
as preached by the great Yoda. Or something.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck