[Tommi]

Hi all,

I am currently recording drum tracks for our band, and come to the simple
conclusion that the results so far are not good. The recorded sound is ok,
but I think I am really missing something about the drumkit's microphone
placement. More accurately, overhead microphone placement.

So far I've used a spaced pair of Audio Technica 4050's as overheads, and
tried to keep them equally distant from the snare. But I also have a pair of
Shure SM81's (one has been used as a hi-hat mike so far). But, since the
room we're recording in is a typical amateur band rehearsal space -the room
is so crappy we have mostly just dampened it- I am having trouble getting a
full, "glued" sound from the whole kit. Basically we're just after a typical
modern rock sound, but finding it hard to achieve.

The close mikes sound as good as ever (SM57's mainly), but I think I am
messing up the overhead sound. We have only 8 tracks at our disposal, and it
would be nice to get both the overall sound and the cymbals from those
overheads. Maybe I should try a X-Y pair for a more coherent stereo image?

We have the following microphones at our disposal:

4 x Shure SM 57
2 x Audio Technica 4050
2 x Shure SM 81
2 x AKG D112

If you guys have any tips about how should I try to make the sound better
with these mics, it would be very much appreciated. I have also tried to
search the web but found it surprisingly hard to find detailed descriptions
about different overhead techniques. I guess the main question is, should I
place the OH's as a coherent or a non-coherent spaced pair, and should I use
the SM81's or the 4050's...

[Mike Rivers]

You can try putting the two AT4050s overhead and an SM81 about four
feet out front. That should give you a fairly coherent sound, assuming
the drummer is good and can keep the kit balanced. If not, all bets
are off.

With just three mics, you can get a good drum sound but it won't be an
in-your-face snare and gut-wrenching kick that some people expect. But
you aren't auditioning your recording skills, are you? You're
auditioning the band.

Play good music and it'll work.

[Robert Morein[_2_]]

wrote in message



With just three mics, you can get a good drum sound but it won't be an
in-your-face snare and gut-wrenching kick that some people expect. But
you aren't auditioning your recording skills, are you?

The fact is, for recording engineers like us, it's all about ME - the
"music" (or whatever else these kids call it) is irrelevant. Filling our
resumés is the all-important factor.

Bob Morein
Dresher, PA
(215) 646-4894

[Martin Harrington]

So, you're a recording engineer now, are you.
What are your credits.

Martin Harrington

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
wrote in message



With just three mics, you can get a good drum sound but it won't be an
in-your-face snare and gut-wrenching kick that some people expect. But
you aren't auditioning your recording skills, are you?

The fact is, for recording engineers like us, it's all about ME - the
"music" (or whatever else these kids call it) is irrelevant. Filling our
resumés is the all-important factor.

Bob Morein
Dresher, PA
(215) 646-4894

[Arny Krueger]

"Martin Harrington" wrote in
message
So, you're a recording engineer now, are you.
What are your credits.

Check the properties of the post you've responded to, Martin. You've just
been sucked in by the Buzzardnews stalker. Probable connection with the name
given as the author of the post: zero.

[Martin Harrington]

Oh well.....................

Martin Harrington

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Martin Harrington" wrote in
message
So, you're a recording engineer now, are you.
What are your credits.

Check the properties of the post you've responded to, Martin. You've just
been sucked in by the Buzzardnews stalker. Probable connection with the
name given as the author of the post: zero.

[Scott Dorsey]

Tommi wrote:

So far I've used a spaced pair of Audio Technica 4050's as overheads, and
tried to keep them equally distant from the snare. But I also have a pair of
Shure SM81's (one has been used as a hi-hat mike so far). But, since the
room we're recording in is a typical amateur band rehearsal space -the room
is so crappy we have mostly just dampened it- I am having trouble getting a
full, "glued" sound from the whole kit. Basically we're just after a typical
modern rock sound, but finding it hard to achieve.

I think you're going to find that what is missing is the room, and without a
good sounding room you're not going to get a good sounding drum. And I bet
a nickel you have only the high frequencies in the room damped down, so all
the midrange issues just become worse in comparison.

But even so... what happens if you pull the overheads way back, and then
move them way forward? How do the balances change?

If you walk around with a finger in one ear listening with the other, what
does it sound like? Is there a place where the room and drums are in balance?

The close mikes sound as good as ever (SM57's mainly), but I think I am
messing up the overhead sound. We have only 8 tracks at our disposal, and it
would be nice to get both the overall sound and the cymbals from those
overheads. Maybe I should try a X-Y pair for a more coherent stereo image?

The stereo image isn't your problem, the problem is going to be either
the balance between the different parts of the overhead, or the room
tone in the midrange. You _should_ be able to find a place where you can
get a good balance between the cymbals and the overall sound, but you won't
be able to without using one ear and listening around until you find that
place.

BUT, even in that place you may have hollowness issues with the room.

If you guys have any tips about how should I try to make the sound better
with these mics, it would be very much appreciated. I have also tried to
search the web but found it surprisingly hard to find detailed descriptions
about different overhead techniques. I guess the main question is, should I
place the OH's as a coherent or a non-coherent spaced pair, and should I use
the SM81's or the 4050's...

It doesn't matter. For experimental purposes you can try using one overhead
and doing it in mono. Once you get the balances in mono right, you can then
transfer it to whatever stereo miking technique you want. But if you cannot
get the balances right and you cannot get the tone right, you need to worry
about that before worrying about imaging.

The reason folks don't give descriptions about different techniques is that
basically there are only two: putting the mike in a place where it gets just
cymbals, and putting the mike in a place where it gets a good overall sound
in the kit. The actual places to put it depend completely on the kit and
the room, and you may find the right place for an "overhead" is three inches
off the floor. Only your ears will find it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sean Conolly]

"Tommi" wrote in message
ti.fi...
Hi all,

I am currently recording drum tracks for our band, and come to the simple
conclusion that the results so far are not good. The recorded sound is ok,
but I think I am really missing something about the drumkit's microphone
placement. More accurately, overhead microphone placement.

So far I've used a spaced pair of Audio Technica 4050's as overheads, and
tried to keep them equally distant from the snare. But I also have a pair
of Shure SM81's (one has been used as a hi-hat mike so far). But, since
the room we're recording in is a typical amateur band rehearsal space -the
room is so crappy we have mostly just dampened it- I am having trouble
getting a full, "glued" sound from the whole kit. Basically we're just
after a typical modern rock sound, but finding it hard to achieve.

The close mikes sound as good as ever (SM57's mainly), but I think I am
messing up the overhead sound. We have only 8 tracks at our disposal, and
it would be nice to get both the overall sound and the cymbals from those
overheads. Maybe I should try a X-Y pair for a more coherent stereo image?

We have the following microphones at our disposal:

4 x Shure SM 57
2 x Audio Technica 4050
2 x Shure SM 81
2 x AKG D112

If you guys have any tips about how should I try to make the sound better
with these mics, it would be very much appreciated. I have also tried to
search the web but found it surprisingly hard to find detailed
descriptions about different overhead techniques. I guess the main
question is, should I place the OH's as a coherent or a non-coherent
spaced pair, and should I use the SM81's or the 4050's...

Being a drummer I end up doing a lot of drum recordings, so I'll cautiously
offer up what I figured out along the way as amatuer recordist.

1. You can't fight the way the room sounds. If you have the time and means
to treat it then there's lots of info for doing so in the archives and on
the web. Otherwise you just need to figure how to work with what you have as
Scott said.

2. I believe that the phase and timing of the tracks is the big factor in
making the tracks sound like a coherent kit. I tend to use an X/Y pattern
for the overheads so the timing between them is pretty close to start with,
and then I will take the time to shift the close mic'd tracks back until
they line up with the overheads. If I don't do this I find that these tracks
sit in the front of the mix instead of blending with the kit. I want the
overheads to set the timing of the sounds and the individual tracks to
reinforce these.

3. Tonewise, I do the same thing: I spend the most time getting a good
balance from the overheads, then afterwards I'll add EQ as needed to get a
pretty good sound from the overheads alone. Then I'll blend in the other
tracks as needed to reinforce - but not overwhelm the overheads. If I have
the toms set up for old-school rock with looser heads then I use a lot more
of the close mics than I would normally.

In the end you can still hear that the kit wasn't in a good sounding room,
and my "mic locker" isn't half as good as what you have, but it sounds
pretty good overall.

Sean

[Ethan Winer]

Sean,

1. You can't fight the way the room sounds. If you have the time and means
to treat it then there's lots of info for doing so in the archives and on
the web.

Have the time and means? If someone has the "time and means" to buy musical
instruments, buy microphones and other recording gear, buy monitor speakers,
and go to the effort to set up a recording session, there is no excuse for
not dealing with the room itself.

Why the hell do so many people worry about everything EXCEPT the one thing
that matters most? :-)

--Ethan

[Sean Conolly]

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
Sean,

1. You can't fight the way the room sounds. If you have the time and
means to treat it then there's lots of info for doing so in the archives
and on the web.

Have the time and means? If someone has the "time and means" to buy
musical instruments, buy microphones and other recording gear, buy monitor
speakers, and go to the effort to set up a recording session, there is no
excuse for not dealing with the room itself.

Why the hell do so many people worry about everything EXCEPT the one thing
that matters most? :-)

Unless he has to do a session in the next day or so - I don't know what his
schedule or budget is :-)

I do believe that time and money invested in the acoustics of the recording
space is probably the best investment you can make, but...

... playing with new bass traps just ain't as much fun as playing with a new
mixer :-)

Sean

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:26:50 -0400, "Sean Conolly"
wrote:

I don't know what his
schedule or budget is :-)

Quoted just to emphasise "his".

Everything, and I do mean *everything*, is, for us Y-chromosome-
challenged(?) critters, Toys For Boys.


Ah, but what peer group is to judge our latest toys? Surely
not the believers in mass merchandising? That's *so* high
school. Then what peer group do we aspire to?
And pardon my dangling whatchamacallit,

A good quarter of posts to this newsgroup could really be
rephrased as "is this widget cool enough?"

Well, maybe not a quarter, but you know what I mean.
Everything is about toys, but what are the toys of the
big boys?


Yeah, bull****, but there it is.
Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Mikey]

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
Sean,

1. You can't fight the way the room sounds. If you have the time and
means to treat it then there's lots of info for doing so in the archives
and on the web.

Have the time and means? If someone has the "time and means" to buy
musical instruments, buy microphones and other recording gear, buy monitor
speakers, and go to the effort to set up a recording session, there is no
excuse for not dealing with the room itself.

Why the hell do so many people worry about everything EXCEPT the one thing
that matters most? :-)

--Ethan

Yeah.... the one thing that matters most... songwriting... : )

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
This sig is haiku

[[email protected]]

On 2007-09-24 said:
Have the time and means? If someone has the "time and means" to
buy musical instruments, buy microphones and other recording gear,
buy monitor speakers, and go to the effort to set up a recording
session, there is no excuse for not dealing with the room itself.
Why the hell do so many people worry about everything EXCEPT the
one thing that matters most? :-)

Yeah.... the one thing that matters most... songwriting... : )
AS BOb Ohlson used to say, and paraphrasing, but something
like this:\
Putting the lion's share of your attention and effort into
what happens on the business end of the microphone will pay
off in better product. That means write something worth
listening to in the first place g.

STill that's why it really should be that recording
engineers and facilities record and talent performs, maybe
even other folks write.

But hey, it's about buying toys to set up in your basement.
Wonk on dudes!!!




Richard webb,
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



YOu can suck out the frequency, but you can't frequency
out the suck.

[Ethan Winer]

Yeah.... the one thing that matters most... songwriting... : )

Good point Mikey. Of course, I was talking about what "gear" matters most.
One of my favorite quotes is this one from EQ magazine editor Craig
Anderton:

"No listener gives a damn what mic pre you used."

--Ethan

[Paul Stamler]

"Tommi" wrote in message
ti.fi...
We have the following microphones at our disposal:

4 x Shure SM 57
2 x Audio Technica 4050
2 x Shure SM 81
2 x AKG D112

If you guys have any tips about how should I try to make the sound better
with these mics, it would be very much appreciated. I have also tried to
search the web but found it surprisingly hard to find detailed
descriptions
about different overhead techniques. I guess the main question is, should
I
place the OH's as a coherent or a non-coherent spaced pair, and should I
use
the SM81's or the 4050's...

Try the SM81s as an XY pair, but also try them as an ORTF pair. In a lousy
room, though, probably XY will be more acceptable.

Peace,
Paul