I was in a local music store the other day and noticed they had one of
those Carillon computers in the keyboard department.

For those that don't recall, these are the low noise rackmount units
that were/are heavily advertised in mags and are distributed by Wave
Distribution.

There was some other background noise going on in the room (some
keyboard amps hissing, other computers) but I stuck my head right up
to the Carillon chassis and heard nothing, I mean it was dead quiet.

Oh yeah it was turned on g

Seems like it would be a more viable solution to the PC DAW noise
issue than buying one of those $1000 insulated boxes to put your DAW
in.

If you want quiet, I'd check one of these out, but I have no idea
about the performance of the machines, but given the other stuff that
Gil distributes, I suspect these things are pretty decent.

Analogeezer

Geezer,

Seems like it would be a more viable solution to the PC DAW noise issue
than buying one of those $1000 insulated boxes to put your DAW in.

Yes, but don't discount Dell, who makes very quiet computers for a more
reasonable price. My previous and current Dells were/are quiet enough that
I've never needed a sound proof box, and I record soft acoustic instruments
in the same room with no problem.

Just another angle on this.

--Ethan

In article writes:

I was in a local music store the other day and noticed they had one of
those Carillon computers in the keyboard department.

There was some other background noise going on in the room (some
keyboard amps hissing, other computers) but I stuck my head right up
to the Carillon chassis and heard nothing, I mean it was dead quiet.

Oh yeah it was turned on g

Seems like it would be a more viable solution to the PC DAW noise
issue than buying one of those $1000 insulated boxes to put your DAW
in.

They do a good job, and they sell enough computers so that they can
buy components in bulk and don't have to worry about things not
working together because they have a different combination of
motherboard and graphic board chip sets in every system they assemble.

There are apparently enough people willing to pay 50% more for a
computer (100% more if you compare it to a typical tower case
configuration) and let someone else build it so that they can stay in
business. But your typical user "knows" enough about computers that he
can assemble his own for half the price, and does. Many get it right
the first or second time. Others fight it for months.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1057511655k@trad
In article "Ethan Winer" ethan
at ethanwiner dot com writes:

Yes, but don't discount Dell, who makes very quiet computers for a
more reasonable price. My previous and current Dells were/are quiet
enough that I've never needed a sound proof box, and I record soft
acoustic instruments in the same room with no problem.

I have a couple of year old Dell desktop that I use for general
purpose work and I'm impressed with how quiet it is.

Speaking as one who builds and sells competitive computers, let me add that
I wish I had reasonable access to some of the parts that Dell uses to make
their computers quiet.

I'd consider
using it, or one like it, in the studio. I however keep hearing things
about Dell (and admittedly about every other "appliance store"
computer when the subject comes up) regarding the use of certain
proprietary parts,

IME much less so than Compaq, HP or IBM.

that they don't like disk drives that don't come from Dell (how do they
KNOW?),

I've never seen that, and I've upgraded many a hard drive in a Dell.


that the case doesn't lend itself to
mounting multiple removable media drives,

They make lots of different cases and if a person can't figure this out from
pictures, they shouldn't be fooling with the guts of a computer.

that even when disabled in the CMOS setup the sound card gets in the way
(how do they do THAT?),

Again I've never seen that, but doing it would be way to easy, I believe its
called "a mistake".

and so on.

Some people like to badmouth their competition. If its deserved, that's one
thing, but many of the complaints I hear may reflect on the technical
expertise of the people who make them. If one of my customers wants a brand
name computer Dell is one of the two national brands that I mention. I've
had minimal problems working on Dells down the road.

I trust you've had better luck than the people who may or may not have
tried to use a Dell as a recording computer but who are suspicious of
anything that they don't assemble themselves after months of Internet
research yielding great results with now-obsolete components.

Some people seem to reserve the right to live with their own mistakes. Plan
"B" - have a computer from someone who knows what they are doing ('cause
that's what they do) and have minimal mistakes to live with.

"Analogeezer" wrote in message
om...
I was in a local music store the other day and noticed they had one of
those Carillon computers in the keyboard department.

Saw a whole bunch of them at SMPTE in Sydney the other day. The case adds
about $1000 AU to the cost of a machine, and they only sell them as whole
systems. I just want to buy the case.

Pat.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1057511655k@trad

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan
at ethanwiner dot com writes:


Yes, but don't discount Dell, who makes very quiet computers for a
more reasonable price. My previous and current Dells were/are quiet
enough that I've never needed a sound proof box, and I record soft
acoustic instruments in the same room with no problem.

I have a couple of year old Dell desktop that I use for general
purpose work and I'm impressed with how quiet it is.


Speaking as one who builds and sells competitive computers, let me add that
I wish I had reasonable access to some of the parts that Dell uses to make
their computers quiet.

Agreed! They have nice ducting for their CPUs which obviates the need
for a heatsink fan (and its attendant turbulence from the intersecting
airflows inside your case.)


I however keep hearing things
about Dell (and admittedly about every other "appliance store"
computer when the subject comes up) regarding the use of certain
proprietary parts,


IME much less so than Compaq, HP or IBM.

Same experience here.



that they don't like disk drives that don't come from Dell (how do they
KNOW?),

I've never seen that, and I've upgraded many a hard drive in a Dell.

Its possible they had some of the same BIOS hackery in their SCSI array
drives which prevented Compaq's RAID controllers from recognizing third
party hard disks.



that even when disabled in the CMOS setup the sound card gets in the way
(how do they do THAT?),

Again I've never seen that, but doing it would be way to easy, I believe its
called "a mistake".

I have some complaints about their IRQ routing options (or lack thereof)
but I have those complaints about many motherboard manufacturers.



Can I build comparable machines for less money? Of course. But some
people want a national brand with in-house financing and for them I
usually recommend Dell, at least for desktops.

I'm really liking the recent IBM X-series servers, though...

"Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
Geezer,

Seems like it would be a more viable solution to the PC DAW noise issue
than buying one of those $1000 insulated boxes to put your DAW in.

Yes, but don't discount Dell, who makes very quiet computers for a more
reasonable price. My previous and current Dells were/are quiet enough that
I've never needed a sound proof box, and I record soft acoustic
instruments
in the same room with no problem.

Ethan, did your Dell get noisier over time? I had a real leaf blower before
so when I got the Dell (which has just been a few weeks) it appeared almost
silent but I'm pretty sure it's louder now (and not my imagination). The
heat in the room hasn't changed so I don't think it's increased fan noise.
All machinery gets louder usually as it ages but not this quick.

Mike,

certain proprietary parts

What Arny said. I've had two Dells personally, and lots of experience with
many Dells owned by friends that I've configured, optimized, etc. They are
quiet, solid, and easy to work on and upgrade. I've installed new hard
drives, replaced video cards, added memory and peripherals - you name it.

Both times I bought a Dell I was going to build my own, but decided it just
wasn't worth the hassle and risk to save a few hundred dollars. By "risk" I
mean, if you build your own computer and something is incompatible or the
performance is poor, who are you going to yell at? And compared to a
computer from an audio specialist, a Dell is much less expensive. Of course,
you have to know what you're doing to set up any computer properly. Which is
why the audio specialists can charge what they do, for folks that can't be
bothered.

--Ethan

Ricky,

did your Dell get noisier over time?

No, but I think I know what you're referring to. Many computers have
variable speed fans that speed up and slow down slightly as needed. When I
turn on my Dell in the morning it is very quiet, but after a few hours as
the inside warms up the fan has to go faster to maintain a low temperature.
Depending on the room temperature it sometimes stays that way or slows down
again.

--Ethan

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com writes:

What Arny said. I've had two Dells personally, and lots of experience with
many Dells owned by friends that I've configured, optimized, etc. They are
quiet, solid, and easy to work on and upgrade.

Both times I bought a Dell I was going to build my own, but decided it just
wasn't worth the hassle and risk to save a few hundred dollars.

That's why I bought a Dell when I needed another "office" computer.
Actually I bought the last year's model or so from a used computer
store, and got a fully working computer complete with Windows 2000
installation disks for less than I'd spend building one (admittedly
twice as fast, but who needs that for word processing?) from parts.

The guy at the store lectured me on the difference between the Dell
"classes", Optiplex and the other one, and assured me that it was
worth the extra $100 to get the Optiplex because it used higher
quality parts and he's had zero returns on that model while a few of
the others have come back and needed new power supplies. So I guess
there's Dell and then there's Dell. Good to hear that there aren't any
built-in roadblocks however.

By "risk" I
mean, if you build your own computer and something is incompatible or the
performance is poor, who are you going to yell at?

Exactly. On the other hand, if you add an audio I/O card to a brand
name computer and find that it doesn't work due to an incompatability
with something (which you haven't determined yet), you probably won't
get much support from the computer manufacturer. And the sound card
manufacturer may well tell you "Oh, a lot of users have had probelems
with that computer." Of course you should have checked that out
before hand, but few people have the foresight.

Of course,
you have to know what you're doing to set up any computer properly. Which is
why the audio specialists can charge what they do, for folks that can't be
bothered.

No doubt secrets of the Divine Yo-Yo Brotherhood. I've seen and read
dozens of articles and web sites on setting up your computer for audio
and still I've never done anything that's made a difference, but then
I have only a simple system and after learning how to force IRQs so
the plug-and-play wouldn't mess with my Music Quest MIDI card,
everything has worked as well as it needs to work. So I'm knocking on
wood and resisting replacing the computer because I know everything
will be different.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com writes:

did your Dell get noisier over time?

Many computers have
variable speed fans that speed up and slow down slightly as needed. When I
turn on my Dell in the morning it is very quiet, but after a few hours as
the inside warms up the fan has to go faster to maintain a low temperature.

I discovered (after living with it for over a year) that the power
supply fan in the Mackie hard disk recorder did that. I was beginning
ot think I was imagining how quiet it was when, coming back into the
studio from a break after working for a few hours, I would swear that
the recorder was noisier than I remembered.

I bypassed the thermostatic control, then slowed the fan down so that,
when running at a constant speed, it still kept the exhaust air at a
sensible and (apparently safe) temperature. It hasn't burned up in six
months or so. Now it's very slightly noisier when I first turn it on,
but still very quiet, and it doesn't change throughout the day. All in
all a better working environment, I think. I got it down to the point
where the disk drive was noisier than the fans, and now they're making
quieter disk drives. Based on experience using them as removable
drives in the Mackie, I'm going to replace the internal drive with a
Maxtor Diamondmax. That should shut it up real good.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

So I guess
there's Dell and then there's Dell. Good to hear that there aren't any
built-in roadblocks however.

Dell power supplies and mobo's are reverse wired so that if your PSU dies
and you need another one, you need to buy one from Dell or else you'll short
out your mobo.

Regards,

DJ

Mike Rivers wrote in message
news:znr1057594435k@trad...

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at
ethanwiner dot com writes:

What Arny said. I've had two Dells personally, and lots of experience
with
many Dells owned by friends that I've configured, optimized, etc. They
are
quiet, solid, and easy to work on and upgrade.

Both times I bought a Dell I was going to build my own, but decided it
just
wasn't worth the hassle and risk to save a few hundred dollars.

That's why I bought a Dell when I needed another "office" computer.
Actually I bought the last year's model or so from a used computer
store, and got a fully working computer complete with Windows 2000
installation disks for less than I'd spend building one (admittedly
twice as fast, but who needs that for word processing?) from parts.

The guy at the store lectured me on the difference between the Dell
"classes", Optiplex and the other one, and assured me that it was
worth the extra $100 to get the Optiplex because it used higher
quality parts and he's had zero returns on that model while a few of
the others have come back and needed new power supplies. So I guess
there's Dell and then there's Dell. Good to hear that there aren't any
built-in roadblocks however.

By "risk" I
mean, if you build your own computer and something is incompatible or
the
performance is poor, who are you going to yell at?

Exactly. On the other hand, if you add an audio I/O card to a brand
name computer and find that it doesn't work due to an incompatability
with something (which you haven't determined yet), you probably won't
get much support from the computer manufacturer. And the sound card
manufacturer may well tell you "Oh, a lot of users have had probelems
with that computer." Of course you should have checked that out
before hand, but few people have the foresight.

Of course,
you have to know what you're doing to set up any computer properly.
Which is
why the audio specialists can charge what they do, for folks that can't
be
bothered.

No doubt secrets of the Divine Yo-Yo Brotherhood. I've seen and read
dozens of articles and web sites on setting up your computer for audio
and still I've never done anything that's made a difference, but then
I have only a simple system and after learning how to force IRQs so
the plug-and-play wouldn't mess with my Music Quest MIDI card,
everything has worked as well as it needs to work. So I'm knocking on
wood and resisting replacing the computer because I know everything
will be different.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"DJ" wrote in message
...
So I guess
there's Dell and then there's Dell. Good to hear that there aren't any
built-in roadblocks however.

Dell power supplies and mobo's are reverse wired so that if your PSU dies
and you need another one, you need to buy one from Dell or else you'll
short
out your mobo.

I'm not sure if they're "reverse wired" but I don't think it was done as a
way to force you to buy from Dell (and that may not have been what you
intended to infer). All other parts in their computers are pretty much off
the shelf replaceable. I think it has to do with special features they offer
on their computers (all kinds of neat things like a "traffic light" on the
back of the computer for diagnosis). http://www.pcpowercooling.com/ sells
PS's compatible with Dell and there's also a converter for about $5 (but I
don't have the site) that will allow any PS to work with a Dell.

"DJ" wrote in message
...

So I guess
there's Dell and then there's Dell. Good to hear that there aren't any
built-in roadblocks however.

Dell power supplies and mobo's are reverse wired so that if your PSU dies
and you need another one, you need to buy one from Dell or else you'll
short
out your mobo.

That's quite a tale, and clearly not the global truth. I've replaced
numerous Dell power supplies with generics, and I've even built a few shop
beaters (used for testing parts and copying drives) with scrapped-out Dell
power supplies and standard motherboards.

A number of years ago it was pretty common to see odd power supplies, but
most of the machines built in the last 3-5 years I've seen have had standard
connectors. I can recall no exceptions among machines built in the last 3
years.

IME the worst perps of odd power supplies were IBM and Compaq. IME Dell and
Gateway always stuck very close to the standards. I can't say that there
weren't some oddballs because obviously I haven't seen everything.

I've recently done both power supply replacements and motherboard
replacements Dells, Gateways, on even some fairly ordinary Compaqs. Needless
to say, if there were PS connector problems I'd have had a lot more work to
do!

The area where standards are still missing relate to connectors for the
front panel - lights, buttons, and ports. I've got some tricks for handling
those situations, and can deliver a perfectly functional and stock-appearing
upgraded box for a reasonable price.

Mike,

I bypassed the thermostatic control, then slowed the fan down

Great hack!

--Ethan

I bypassed the thermostatic control, then slowed the fan down

Great hack!

Then again, I'm convinced that one of the main factors in my music
computer working reliably (while others report problems) is mine
having installed extra cooling, running full at blast. Fan noise is
noticeable in a quite studio, but not a practical problem into the
microphone.

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com writes:

When I bought both Dells I told the salesperson what I was using it for, and
that it had to work with my audio cards or I'd return it. That's more what I
meant by avoiding "risk" because they HAVE to take it back if you don't like
it.

Dell seems to be perfecly willing to take things back. When I got my
Dell laptop (the one I can't find a suitable case for), tried to
enable Internet connection sharing, and couldn't get it to work, Dell
was happy to take it back. In fact, when I called Customer Service
after getting no satisfaction from Dell's tech support, the person had
already pushed the "return" button before we finished our discussion.
I had a return authorization and prepaid airbill on my doorstep the
next morning. Then she offered me a router (free) which I cheerfully
accepted (and I'm using) even though I was sure it wouldn't solve my
problem (which it didn't). I finally found out from Microsoft that the
reason why it didn't work is that I was using AOL and they didn't
include the hooks for it.

But the point is that Dell will indeed cheerfully take a return.
However, my preference is to walk into a store, discuss my
requirements with a knowledgable person, and walk out with something
that will do the job right without having to fool with it too much, or
discover on my own after a week's worth of experimentation and
research, that it won't work and then return it. While I can't walk
into a store and buy a Carillion computer, at least if I tell them
what software and hardware I intend to use with it, they will make
sure it works (even if I have to send them the software and hardware
to install). At this point, and for the forseeable future, all I'm
talking about is a Lynx L22 card and a USB MIDI interface, so that's
pretty easy. It'll probably work right off the bat in just about any
off-the-shelf computer.

I've always done all the standard Win 98 - Win XP
optimizations, and that's always made a HUGE difference in track count and
eliminating dropouts.

I do some of them just as a matter of course (maybe because I've read
the articles) and since I don't record or play more than 2 tracks, it
doesn't have to be very optimized, it just has to work.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com writes:

I bypassed the thermostatic control, then slowed the fan down
Great hack!

I'd write an article about this sort of stuff but I figure that the
magazine would be bombarded with letters from computer manufacturers
about voiding the warranty, not advisable because users don't have the
facilities to make measurements to know if their systems are in the
danger zone, they know better than we do, and so on. So better to just
let it be an "I read on the Internet" kind of thing for those who are
willing to take the risk. But plenty of overclockers take similar
risks, and they even have their magazines.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1057684113k@trad...

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at
ethanwiner dot com writes:

I bypassed the thermostatic control, then slowed the fan down
Great hack!

Ethan, how did you do this?

Ricky,

Ethan, how did you do this?

I didn't do it, Mike did.

--Ethan

In article "Ethan Winer" ethan at ethanwiner dot com writes:

Ethan, how did you do this?
I didn't do it, Mike did.

Did not!

We're talking about bypassing the fan's temperature sensor and slowing
down the fan? Well, you find the temperature sensor, find where it
connects to the fan, and wire across it. As far as slowing down the
fan, the safest way to do this is to put a Zener diode in series with
the motor. I used a 5.1 V Zener which left about 7 volts for the fan
to run on. This is better than using a resistor since you'll always
have 7 volts going to the fan regardless of how much current the fan
draws - the voltage won't drop when the oil in the fan gums up,
slowing it down further.

I'm reluctant to say more about it because if you can't figure it out
for yourself, you probably shouldn't risk your computer modifying it
this way.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Mike Rivers wrote:

I'm reluctant to say more about it because if you can't figure it out
for yourself, you probably shouldn't risk your computer modifying it
this way.

I suggest you immediately sell your house and move to an undisclosed
location.

--
ha

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1057781823k@trad
In article "Ethan Winer" ethan
at ethanwiner dot com writes:

Ethan, how did you do this?
I didn't do it, Mike did.

Did not!

We're talking about bypassing the fan's temperature sensor and slowing
down the fan? Well, you find the temperature sensor, find where it
connects to the fan, and wire across it. As far as slowing down the
fan, the safest way to do this is to put a Zener diode in series with
the motor. I used a 5.1 V Zener which left about 7 volts for the fan
to run on. This is better than using a resistor since you'll always
have 7 volts going to the fan regardless of how much current the fan
draws - the voltage won't drop when the oil in the fan gums up,
slowing it down further.

Agreed.

Even simpler is connecting the fan between +12 and +5, yielding 7 volts with
zero parts.

Arny,

Even simpler is connecting the fan between +12 and +5, yielding 7 volts
with zero parts.

You continue to amaze me with your talent and cleverness.

--Ethan

In article writes:

Even simpler is connecting the fan between +12 and +5, yielding 7 volts with
zero parts.

Probalby simpler, and definitely equivalent electrically, but it means
that you have to go beyond the existing wiring. You can just cut one
of the two wires going to the fan and solder in a Zener. If it doesn't
work (doesn't drop all the voltage you intend), you just need to
reverse the Zener. It doesn't even matter which wire you cut to insert
it.

If you want to connect the fan between the +12 and +5 volt supplies in
the cleanest manner, you'd need to locate a vacant disk drive power
connector and obtain a mating plug, then identify the 5V and 12V
leads, cut off the others to prevent them from going astray, remove
the existing fan power connector, and rewire the fan to your new
connector. Be sure that the fan runs in the correct direction before
buttoning things up.

There are other ways of doing this that are more complicated. And of
course you're limited to running the fan at 7V (which, surprisingly,
seems to be a good choice in most cases). If it turns out that you can
run your fan a little slower, or you need to run it a bit faster to
get sufficient cooling, you can just select a different Zener voltage.

Probably the best thing, though, is to buy one of those accessory fan
speed adjusters that plug in line with the existing fan power
connector. At least then if you burn up your computer, you can blame
someone else.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1057851731k@trad
In article
writes:
Well, for nuttin', you can't expect for a full range of adjustment. If you
want to spend money, you get a Zalman Fan Mate
http://www.jacoltech.com/zafanma1adfa.html .

Well that sounds like something I could handle. Does anyone know if this
will work (and interface easily) with a Dell Dimension?

Even simpler is connecting the fan between +12 and +5, yielding 7 volts with
zero parts.


Be aware that there are still some 12v fans that won't always start
with 7 volts. Although I usually use +5 and +12 leads for the power
supply and cpu fans, I recently destroyed a PIII 750 when the fan just
failed to start after running reliably for over a year. Back on 12
volts it spun fine.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

In article writes:

Although I usually use +5 and +12 leads for the power
supply and cpu fans, I recently destroyed a PIII 750 when the fan just
failed to start after running reliably for over a year. Back on 12
volts it spun fine.

This is a sign that the fan has finally become gummed up and should be
replaced. Had you used a resistor to drop the voltage rather than
providing it with a solid 7V at higher than normal current, it may not
have run as long as it did before stopping.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"Frank Vuotto" wrote in message


Even simpler is connecting the fan between +12 and +5, yielding 7
volts with zero parts.

Be aware that there are still some 12v fans that won't always start
with 7 volts.

Of course. That's why they call them "12 volt fans".

;-)

Although I usually use +5 and +12 leads for the power
supply and cpu fans, I recently destroyed a PIII 750 when the fan just
failed to start after running reliably for over a year.

One takes risks, one occasionally looses...

Back on 12 volts it spun fine.

OK, but the fact that it once started at 7 volts and then stopped doing so
was evidence that it was degrading appreciably.

There are a couple of solutions. The best is to have something that
automatically monitors chip temperatures and makes a fuss when things are
going awry. Another (circumvention) would be to have a start up circuit
that provides the full 12 volts for a second or two at start up to kick
sticky fans loose. I could see doing this with a Zalmann Fan Mate-type
device by simply paralleling it with a big electrolytic capacitor from input
to output.