Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

I found a used Audio Research D130 power amp for my Audio Research LS3b
line-stage, and I'm looking forward to some serious tunage. One of the
features of these two components is that they're designed for a balanced
(XLR) connection between the preamp and the power amp. It makes sense
to me that this might be the best way of connecting these particular
components, since they were designed to be put together this way.

So I'm looking for recommendations. I don't have a lot of money to throw
around on wire, and I'm pretty skeptical about cable claims. And a lot
of the balanced interconnects are already half what I paid for the preamp.
A friend recommended Nordost, and I'm considering their Black Knight
interconnect. I'm wondering what to make of their claims. They give the
capacitance (8.6pF/ft), inductance (0.13uH/ft), and propagation speed
(91% speed of light). How significant are these figures, and how good
are these values?

They also claim that lack of shielding is a feature (less capacitance),
and not a problem:

----
The use of flat cable geometry coupled with very precise conductor
spacing alleviates the need for conventional shielding. In addition, the
use of extruded Teflon provides better shielding than conventional
insulation techniques. Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding
increases the capitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when
applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is
increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all
of the musical information.
----

This surprises me. I would think that shielding would be important in
back of my audio cabinet, where these guys would be hanging out with
all the other interconnects, speaker cables, TV coax, and power cords.

Thanks,

David Finton

Yes, there are good XLR cables which cost under US$100 for a 3ft pair.

Advantages of balanced cables over the unbalanced cables are two (mainly):

1. The circuit inside the component is better;
2. Balanced cables can handle noise far better than unbalanced cables,
especially in high frequency.

As far as the characteristic concern, I don't think the inductance is
really that much of matter, capacitance indeed is important, and 8.6pF/ft
seems like a reasonable value.

Shielding? Shielding is for EMI and RFI prevention, and because balanced
cables and circuit already can handle the noise pretty well, that would be
nice to have a shield, but you won't be able to tell the difference if
there is not.

And a lot of company who make balanced cable will twist the wire to cancel
the effect, but at the same time will increase the value of capacitance.

Email me if you want some XLR cable suggestion.

Lawrence Leung

Congratulations on the D130 purchase. Should serve you well.

You can save a lot of $$ by buying good quality Belden or Cardas balanced
line/mic cables from a pro audio supply house. Balanced cables are a lot
less idiosyncratic than single end, and these should work very well. I have
used them with my pro gear in years past.

"David Finton" wrote in message
news:heq%b.418273$na.808553@attbi_s04...
Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

I found a used Audio Research D130 power amp for my Audio Research LS3b
line-stage, and I'm looking forward to some serious tunage. One of the
features of these two components is that they're designed for a balanced
(XLR) connection between the preamp and the power amp. It makes sense
to me that this might be the best way of connecting these particular
components, since they were designed to be put together this way.

So I'm looking for recommendations. I don't have a lot of money to throw
around on wire, and I'm pretty skeptical about cable claims. And a lot
of the balanced interconnects are already half what I paid for the preamp.
A friend recommended Nordost, and I'm considering their Black Knight
interconnect. I'm wondering what to make of their claims. They give the
capacitance (8.6pF/ft), inductance (0.13uH/ft), and propagation speed
(91% speed of light). How significant are these figures, and how good
are these values?

They also claim that lack of shielding is a feature (less capacitance),
and not a problem:

----
The use of flat cable geometry coupled with very precise conductor
spacing alleviates the need for conventional shielding. In addition, the
use of extruded Teflon provides better shielding than conventional
insulation techniques. Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding
increases the capitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when
applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is
increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all
of the musical information.
----

This surprises me. I would think that shielding would be important in
back of my audio cabinet, where these guys would be hanging out with
all the other interconnects, speaker cables, TV coax, and power cords.

Thanks,

David Finton

David Finton wrote:
Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

I found a used Audio Research D130 power amp for my Audio Research LS3b
line-stage, and I'm looking forward to some serious tunage. One of the
features of these two components is that they're designed for a balanced
(XLR) connection between the preamp and the power amp. It makes sense
to me that this might be the best way of connecting these particular
components, since they were designed to be put together this way.

So I'm looking for recommendations. I don't have a lot of money to throw
around on wire, and I'm pretty skeptical about cable claims. And a lot
of the balanced interconnects are already half what I paid for the preamp.
A friend recommended Nordost, and I'm considering their Black Knight
interconnect. I'm wondering what to make of their claims. They give the
capacitance (8.6pF/ft), inductance (0.13uH/ft), and propagation speed
(91% speed of light). How significant are these figures, and how good
are these values?

The numbers are totally insignificant. Take the 8.6pF/ft, for instance.
Assume that your source has a 200 ohm output resistance. That and 10 ft.
of the 8.6pF/ft cable will give you a 3 dB roll-off at 9.3 Megahertz!
You can easily have more than 10 times that capacitance and still not
change the response at 20 KHz at all. Similarly, the 0.13uH/ft value is
irrelevant. A 10 ft length will give 1.3uH, which has an impedance of
0.16 ohm at 20 KHz, totally insignificant compared to the source
impedance. Needless to say, the speed of 91% of light is simply another
attempt to make the specs look good.


They also claim that lack of shielding is a feature (less capacitance),
and not a problem:

----
The use of flat cable geometry coupled with very precise conductor
spacing alleviates the need for conventional shielding. In addition, the
use of extruded Teflon provides better shielding than conventional
insulation techniques. Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding
increases the capitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when
applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is
increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all
of the musical information.
----

This surprises me. I would think that shielding would be important in
back of my audio cabinet, where these guys would be hanging out with
all the other interconnects, speaker cables, TV coax, and power cords.


I would rather have shielding than trying to get the really low
capacitance figures. For one thing, the power amp probably dominates the
total capacitance anyway. For another, the balanced scheme gives
superior common-mode rejection (rejection of signal common to both
leads), but the rejection is only as good as the implementation in the
power amp, and such rejection usually falls off rapidly as the frequency
of the interference is increased.

See if your local music instrument stores have the cable lengths you
need; those probably will give you the best performance. Or see if Radio
Shack carries them.

Thanks,

David Finton

"David Finton" wrote in message
news:heq%b.418273$na.808553@attbi_s04...
Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??


Go to a local pro audio supplier and buy them there. If they're good enough
for 100' microphone runs, they're good enough for your interconnects.

Bill Balmer

You can buy excellent Swiss-made Neutrik gold plated male and female
balanced XLR connectors for about four dollars each, and it's a very simple
job to solder these to quite inexpensive, but high grade, shielded two
conductor, Belden cable.

Why pay someone else to build balanced cables for you, when it's such a
simple job for you to do yourself, and not only do you save a lot of money,
but you might truly enjoy it.

David Finton wrote:
They give the
capacitance (8.6pF/ft), inductance (0.13uH/ft), and propagation speed
(91% speed of light). How significant are these figures, and how good
are these values?

Let's look at what the speed of light thing means in the audio context.
Let's assume that you have two cables, one has a propogation speed of
light, and the other one only half of that. Say the cables are 10 feet
long. One cable will take 10 nanoseconds less to reach the destination
(in this case, the power amp I assume). What does 10 ns mean?

Speed of sound is 340 meters/sec. In 10 ns, sound travels a distance of
3.4 microns. In other words, the effect of a 10 ns shorter propagation
delay can be corrected for by moving one's ears 3.4 microns closer to
the speaker. BTW, a single human hair has a thickness of about 50 microns.

When you see specs like these in an audio cable, you know that they are
put in there for one reason: to create an illusion of superiority.

I'm surprised too as one of the reasons for using a balanced cable is
to eliminate outside interference as is the reason for adequate
shielding. You may find a local shop that makes them up in 1M to 2M
lengths. I sell them here in such short lengths with various quality
cabling. The best budget stuff comes six foot lengths, so it is a bit
long for some applications but really doesn't hurt anything from
preamp to amp. Another good reason other than reduction of outside
noise for using balanced cables is the quality of the connection.
Balanced cables typically have better contact than RCA cables and are
also usually locking so they don't get loosened accidentally, but
won't break the equipment like some locking (or "turbine" death grip
styles) of RCAs. Much gear that accepts balanced cables is not really
fully balanced and the use causes as much internal noise from the
conversion stages as any noise rejected. In that case a good SE
connection is actually best. You will notice different gain specs on
many amplifiers with the use of balanced vs single-ended connections
to make the point of more circuitry being implemented vs less. The
only way to tell for sure is to connect both types of the same cable
material and listen. I doubt that you will notice any differences
either way unless there is a big amplifier gain issue there. I have
had fully balanced systems and single-ended systems and some did sound
better one way or the other, while some were more immune to that. I am
using Bryston separates now and even though they have balanced
connections available, I'm too lazy to dig-out a few sets and change
them all for comparison with this rig at the moment. Too many other
fish to fry. It sounds great; what's not to like?!
- Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"David Finton" wrote in message
news:heq%b.418273$na.808553@attbi_s04...
Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

I found a used Audio Research D130 power amp for my Audio Research
LS3b
line-stage, and I'm looking forward to some serious tunage. One of
the
features of these two components is that they're designed for a
balanced
(XLR) connection between the preamp and the power amp. It makes
sense
to me that this might be the best way of connecting these particular
components, since they were designed to be put together this way.

So I'm looking for recommendations. I don't have a lot of money to
throw
around on wire, and I'm pretty skeptical about cable claims. And a
lot
of the balanced interconnects are already half what I paid for the
preamp.
A friend recommended Nordost, and I'm considering their Black Knight
interconnect. I'm wondering what to make of their claims. They
give the
capacitance (8.6pF/ft), inductance (0.13uH/ft), and propagation
speed
(91% speed of light). How significant are these figures, and how
good
are these values?

They also claim that lack of shielding is a feature (less
capacitance),
and not a problem:

----
The use of flat cable geometry coupled with very precise conductor
spacing alleviates the need for conventional shielding. In addition,
the
use of extruded Teflon provides better shielding than conventional
insulation techniques. Nordost cables are not shielded because
shielding
increases the capitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when
applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable
is
increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear
all
of the musical information.
----

This surprises me. I would think that shielding would be important
in
back of my audio cabinet, where these guys would be hanging out with
all the other interconnects, speaker cables, TV coax, and power
cords.

Thanks,

David Finton

"Peter" wrote in
news:6rz%b.131990$uV3.649881@attbi_s51:

You can buy excellent Swiss-made Neutrik gold plated male and female
balanced XLR connectors for about four dollars each, and it's a very
simple job to solder these to quite inexpensive, but high grade,
shielded two conductor, Belden cable.

Why pay someone else to build balanced cables for you, when it's such
a simple job for you to do yourself, and not only do you save a lot of
money, but you might truly enjoy it.


Something I have to say...

I love to make steaks myself, and my family and friends all said they
taste better than a lot of high dollar steak house, and ask me how to do
it? I said it is simple and taught them how to do it, it just happened
that none of them can reproduce the same (or even close) taste as mine. I
believe I have to keep making steaks for them...

What I try to say it: something you might see very simple job and
enjoyable hobby might be someone else burden. I do know a few friends
don't know how to use solder iron and affraid to use them.

Yes, building XLR cables are easy... for some of us, but remember not all
of us. As a matter of fact, if you just want to make a couple XLR cables,
then the cost is pretty high:

1. Good soldering iron cost about at least $30
2. Good Silver solder cost about $40
3. XLR connects cost as you said about $16
4. Wire? I don't know, Belden cable normally cost at least $1.5 per foot,
some for six foot cost about $9
5. If you want some sleeving and heat shrink, then you want to buy a heat
gun cost about $35 and sleeving and heat shrink cost about another $10

Total: $30+40+16+9+35+10 = $140.00

That is for someone who want to start this hobby, but if you just want
two XLR cables, do you think that is a good price? Not even mention that
if you 're first timer, then you probably need double the parts in case
you screw up the first one. And the time you are going to on it and
everything, your cost will jump up to $250.00, I belive you can even get
one of those exotic silver cables for that price...

So, if want to have another hobby, that is OK, it is not that hard, not
as hard as somebody make new resolution: "I want to learn how to use
computer this year"!

But if just want a couple cables, just buy them...

Lawrence Leung

"Uptown Audio" wrote in
:

styles) of RCAs. Much gear that accepts balanced cables is not really
fully balanced and the use causes as much internal noise from the
conversion stages as any noise rejected. In that case a good SE
connection is actually best. You will notice different gain specs on
many amplifiers with the use of balanced vs single-ended connections
to make the point of more circuitry being implemented vs less. The
only way to tell for sure is to connect both types of the same cable
material and listen. I doubt that you will notice any differences
either way unless there is a big amplifier gain issue there. I have

There is a contradiction of your statement, if the component circuitry is
not a balanced one, you won't be able to hear the difference anyway. But if
there is a balance circuitry inside, and sure you will tell the difference.
And I doubt that too many gear(s) that accept balanced cables (assume they
will say balance input/output) does not really has the balance circuitry,
that considered as fraud and can get sue for that!

David Finton wrote:

Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

The following outfit (Hotwired Cables) has in my experience
done a nice and reasonably priced job. They fabricate their
cables from Mogami mic cable and Neutrik connectors. You
might take a look at their site and see what you think.

http://stores.ebay.com/id=36766224

It's not too much more money than soldering them yourself, and
a lot less trouble.

Mike Prager
North Carolina, USA

You can get sued for anything in the US, but you have to pay the bill
when you lose. There are plenty of components that have "balanced
inputs", etc but are not fully balanced amplifiers. That is why you
see "fully balanced", and "true balanced", etc used in descriptions.
That is also why the law is "buyer beware and not "manufacturer
beware" (unless you make a product that has a Bose "technology" in it
of course!). Different people hear different things. To say that one
would definately hear the difference is a bit optimistic. I have heard
gear that had balanced circuitry, but sounded better SE as the
amplifiers were not fully balanced all the way through. It is common
practice to have balanced inputs and then convert to SE and then back
again, just as you would with a A/D and D/A device. Nothing illegal
there. Really the only time that I have been able to appreciate a
balanced system is when it was balanced all the way through from DAC
to power amp. That's not theory, just practice.
- Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Lawrence Leung" wrote in message
...
"Uptown Audio" wrote in
:

styles) of RCAs. Much gear that accepts balanced cables is not
really
fully balanced and the use causes as much internal noise from the
conversion stages as any noise rejected. In that case a good SE
connection is actually best. You will notice different gain specs
on
many amplifiers with the use of balanced vs single-ended
connections
to make the point of more circuitry being implemented vs less. The
only way to tell for sure is to connect both types of the same
cable
material and listen. I doubt that you will notice any differences
either way unless there is a big amplifier gain issue there. I
have

There is a contradiction of your statement, if the component
circuitry is
not a balanced one, you won't be able to hear the difference anyway.
But if
there is a balance circuitry inside, and sure you will tell the
difference.
And I doubt that too many gear(s) that accept balanced cables
(assume they
will say balance input/output) does not really has the balance
circuitry,
that considered as fraud and can get sue for that!

Well said and not only that but you forgot the cost to get them to you
or tax or the time invested or the gas money or (D) all of the above.
Then worse yet is like the steak, any idiot can say "I can make those
myself" but then after you add-up the true total costs and see what
you end up with as a finished product, it does not sound so heroic.
Many people think, "yeah, I'll just solder them together and they will
be as good as anyones", but few realize that soldering is an art and
takes a lot of practice to get good at much less great. When you buy
professionally made cables, you get (99% of the time) perfectly
soldered connections. A bad solder joint can ruin your sound and in
the worst of cases, your day or even your speakers (ever heard a
300wpc amp work on a pair of speakers with a dead short as an input?
cool - impulse testing...). So for the $100 that some shop may want
for a pair of decent cables, yes you may just get a bargain. Obviously
if you have the tools and run a shop where you have to order-in
supplies all the time and have the skill to make decent stuff (we have
all the above and still order completed cables) then you can make the
cheap if you use cheap components and don't count labor. Ah yes,
labor - that's why we don't do too much of it here either and why I
haven't gotten 'em even into my own system yet (and I'm the most
affordable guy I know!). We were just musing on another forum about
how on most newsgroups these days there are always those lurking and
waiting to pounce and attack you for about anything. Even moderated
forums suffer that which makes both posting and reading tiresome for
most. If you say you like a particular high-end brand; you get jumped.
If you say you like a particular budget product; you get jumped. If
you just try and be helpful;... you get the idea. No matter what you
decide to do to arrive at your own cables, you are the one who has to
use them, no one else's opinion matters at any fraction of the speed
of light. So buy your solder and practice 'till 4AM each night for a
week or buy your cables. No one here will be effected but you.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Lawrence Leung" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
news:6rz%b.131990$uV3.649881@attbi_s51:

You can buy excellent Swiss-made Neutrik gold plated male and
female
balanced XLR connectors for about four dollars each, and it's a
very
simple job to solder these to quite inexpensive, but high grade,
shielded two conductor, Belden cable.

Why pay someone else to build balanced cables for you, when it's
such
a simple job for you to do yourself, and not only do you save a
lot of
money, but you might truly enjoy it.


Something I have to say...

I love to make steaks myself, and my family and friends all said
they
taste better than a lot of high dollar steak house, and ask me how
to do
it? I said it is simple and taught them how to do it, it just
happened
that none of them can reproduce the same (or even close) taste as
mine. I
believe I have to keep making steaks for them...

What I try to say it: something you might see very simple job and
enjoyable hobby might be someone else burden. I do know a few
friends
don't know how to use solder iron and affraid to use them.

Yes, building XLR cables are easy... for some of us, but remember
not all
of us. As a matter of fact, if you just want to make a couple XLR
cables,
then the cost is pretty high:

1. Good soldering iron cost about at least $30
2. Good Silver solder cost about $40
3. XLR connects cost as you said about $16
4. Wire? I don't know, Belden cable normally cost at least $1.5 per
foot,
some for six foot cost about $9
5. If you want some sleeving and heat shrink, then you want to buy a
heat
gun cost about $35 and sleeving and heat shrink cost about another
$10

Total: $30+40+16+9+35+10 = $140.00

That is for someone who want to start this hobby, but if you just
want
two XLR cables, do you think that is a good price? Not even mention
that
if you 're first timer, then you probably need double the parts in
case
you screw up the first one. And the time you are going to on it and
everything, your cost will jump up to $250.00, I belive you can even
get
one of those exotic silver cables for that price...

So, if want to have another hobby, that is OK, it is not that hard,
not
as hard as somebody make new resolution: "I want to learn how to use
computer this year"!

But if just want a couple cables, just buy them...

Lawrence Leung

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Well said and not only that but you forgot the cost to get them to you
or tax or the time invested or the gas money or (D) all of the above.
Then worse yet is like the steak, any idiot can say "I can make those
myself" but then after you add-up the true total costs and see what
you end up with as a finished product, it does not sound so heroic.
Many people think, "yeah, I'll just solder them together and they will
be as good as anyones", but few realize that soldering is an art and
takes a lot of practice to get good at much less great. When you buy
professionally made cables, you get (99% of the time) perfectly
soldered connections. A bad solder joint can ruin your sound and in
the worst of cases, your day or even your speakers (ever heard a
300wpc amp work on a pair of speakers with a dead short as an input?
cool - impulse testing...). So for the $100 that some shop may want
for a pair of decent cables, yes you may just get a bargain. Obviously
if you have the tools and run a shop where you have to order-in
supplies all the time and have the skill to make decent stuff (we have
all the above and still order completed cables) then you can make the
cheap if you use cheap components and don't count labor. Ah yes,
labor - that's why we don't do too much of it here either and why I
haven't gotten 'em even into my own system yet (and I'm the most
affordable guy I know!). We were just musing on another forum about
how on most newsgroups these days there are always those lurking and
waiting to pounce and attack you for about anything. Even moderated
forums suffer that which makes both posting and reading tiresome for
most. If you say you like a particular high-end brand; you get jumped.
If you say you like a particular budget product; you get jumped. If
you just try and be helpful;... you get the idea. No matter what you
decide to do to arrive at your own cables, you are the one who has to
use them, no one else's opinion matters at any fraction of the speed
of light. So buy your solder and practice 'till 4AM each night for a
week or buy your cables. No one here will be effected but you.
-Bill

I had the tweeter ribbons on a pair Tympanis replaced several years ago in
home, by a technician from a highly regarded Magnepan dealer. About a year
ago one of the channels in my system went sour. I must have spent half a day
trying to source the problem. The last place I looked was the solder
contacts of the ribbon. Broken of course, and the soldering done by a
professional who does this almost each and every day. He might also have
been up till 4AM the prior evening, but definitely not practicing soldering
skills.

Lawrence Leung wrote in
:

"Uptown Audio" wrote in
:

styles) of RCAs. Much gear that accepts balanced cables is not really
fully balanced and the use causes as much internal noise from the
conversion stages as any noise rejected. In that case a good SE
connection is actually best. You will notice different gain specs on
many amplifiers with the use of balanced vs single-ended connections
to make the point of more circuitry being implemented vs less. The
only way to tell for sure is to connect both types of the same cable
material and listen. I doubt that you will notice any differences
either way unless there is a big amplifier gain issue there. I have

There is a contradiction of your statement, if the component circuitry
is not a balanced one, you won't be able to hear the difference
anyway. But if there is a balance circuitry inside, and sure you will
tell the difference. And I doubt that too many gear(s) that accept
balanced cables (assume they will say balance input/output) does not
really has the balance circuitry, that considered as fraud and can get
sue for that!

I'm curious what is meant by 'balanced' in the context of consumer audio
equipment. Is it differential output and differential input, or is it
just a pretty connector that's there to hype the product, or is it
something in between. The cable/connector by themselves doesn't make it
a balanced circuit or a balanced transmission line.

Here are some possible amplifier configurations. If you can't see them,
use a fixed pitch font on your reader. The thingies are connectors,
the 'V' is a ground connection. A 'o' on a signal means inversion.

_____ cable _____
| |------------| |
| PRE |o----------o| POW |
|_____| |_____|
| |
|------------------|
V V
A. This is the ideal setup - differential output and
differential input. Very good common mode rejection,
truly balanced.

_____ _____
| |------------| |
| PRE | +--------o| POW |
|_____| | |_____|
| | |
|-----+------------|
V V
B. Not bad - single-ended output and differential input.
Not truly balanced but still has good gommon mode
rejection.

_____ _____
| |------------| |
| PRE | +------+ | POW |
|_____| | | |_____|
| | | |
|-----+------+-----|
V V
C. Might as well not bother. SE output and
SE input.

Which of the above are we talking about? The whole reason for using a
balanced distribution scheme is to get rid of common mode noise (i.e.,
hum). It won't improve the signal in any other way.

It's easy enough to do a differential input circuit, and it wouldn't
surprise me if some high end equipment has differential intputs. An op
amp or a pair of transistors, or if you're really feeling silly, a twin
triode will do the job. I'm inclined to believe that example B is the
more common 'balanced' output, though.

-- J

In an earlier post, I wrote:

Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

I just found Signal Cable's "Premium XLR - Version 2" for $49 for a two
foot pair. Any comments on these? Blurbage from signalcable follows.

Thanks!

David Finton

http://signalcable.com/analogxlr.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cable-

New Version2 with improved bass performance!

A true balanced design that is extremely quiet and detailed, a preferred
interconnect cable if your equipments support balanced connections. Each
twisted conductor is consist of 30 strands of high purity for a total
of 22Awg.

DC resistance/1000' 18 Ohms
DC res. of shield 1000' 4 Ohms
Nom. Capacitance pf/1KHz K0=23, K1=3.4

Electrostatic Noise 50mV Max.
Electromagnetic Noise 0.15mV Max.

The Connectors-

High quality Neutrik XLR connectors with gold plated contacts. A
standard in high-end audio industry.

Termination-

Professionally Hand Terminated using WBT Silver solders.
-----

On 28 Feb 2004 19:21:17 GMT, "Uptown Audio"
wrote:

snip cautionary tale of the true cost of DIY cables

No matter what you
decide to do to arrive at your own cables, you are the one who has to
use them, no one else's opinion matters at any fraction of the speed
of light. So buy your solder and practice 'till 4AM each night for a
week or buy your cables. No one here will be effected but you.

While all the above is true, it's worth remembering that once you have
your soldering station and your silver-loaded solder, and once you've
built up your soldering skills (it's not all that hard in reality -
even MIL-spec training with HP at at China Lake only takes two weeks),
then you can buy 100 metres of studio grade microphone cable, 100
metres of 12AWG 'zipcord', a bag or two of Deltron or Neutrik
connectors, and make all the precision interconnects and speaker
cables you'll ever need. They'll be as good as anyhting you can buy,
and made to the exact length you need every time.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:_hq0c.424479$I06.4728401@attbi_s01...

then you can buy 100 metres of studio grade microphone cable, 100
metres of 12AWG 'zipcord', a bag or two of Deltron or Neutrik
connectors, and make all the precision interconnects and speaker
cables you'll ever need. They'll be as good as anyhting you can buy,
and made to the exact length you need every time.

Throw in a 500' spool of TechFlex nylon sleeve & several feet of
heatshrink tubing with your name/logo on it, and you can sell these
for upwards of $100/foot, just like the big guys do!

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message news:yK50c.79648$4o.103084@attbi_s52...
There are plenty of components that have "balanced
inputs", etc but are not fully balanced amplifiers. That is why you
see "fully balanced", and "true balanced", etc used in descriptions.
[snip]
I have heard
gear that had balanced circuitry, but sounded better SE as the
amplifiers were not fully balanced all the way through. It is common
practice to have balanced inputs and then convert to SE and then back
again, just as you would with a A/D and D/A device.

The idea of "true balanced" or "fully balanced" equipment (actually
better termed differential) being necessary to appreciate the value of
balanced interconnections is just one of those audiophile myths that
seem to endure. The entire point of balanced interconnection is to
cancel common-mode noise induced on both conductors as near the input
of the component as possible. Once common-mode noise makes it inside
the component, it is very difficult to get rid of it, and it can be
easily converted to differential mode noise and cause more problems.
True balanced components that try to maintain separate amplification
paths for each balanced phase are a waste of money if they don't do
the balanced cancellation at some point, because they'll just amplify
and pass along any common-mode noise riding on the signal. There are
valid reasons for having a differential amplification topology, but
exploiting balanced interconnections isn't one of them.

A useful side effect of balanced interconnection is that they can be
immune from ground loops, because unlike RCA single-ended
interconnection, they separate the function of signal ground from
chassis ground (assuming no pin-1 problems in the interconnected
components). This, to me, is the most valuable reason to use balanced
interconnections, especially in today's fairly complicated
multichannel/HT systems with multiple boxes and the resultant
goobledygook of grounding topologies.

As for shielding degrading a balanced interconnection's ability to
reduce CM noise, this isn't anything new. When Belden came out with
MediaTwist many years ago, they found that shielding degraded the
matching of the cables, because of asymmetrical parisitic effects.
MediaTwist maintains a very precise geometry through bonding of the
two conductors --- I wouldn't be suprised if the cable under
discussion was just repackaged MediaTwist.

Of course, this assumes that your balanced I/O is up to the
capabilities of the cable --- balanced cancellation of CM noise is
directly proportional to how balanced the input common mode impedances
are. If you have messed up balanced inputs or outputs that aren't
very well designed, a fancy cable isn't going to do much for you, as
something that's already the least of your problems becomes even less
significant.

--Andre

"David Finton" wrote in message
news:ahq0c.9345$PR3.169093@attbi_s03...
In an earlier post, I wrote:

Are there any good balanced (XLR) interconnects for under $100??

Markertek (www.markertek.com) has XLR balanced cables in male to male, male
to female and female to female configurations (please not jokes about
constitutional amendments) for $12.95 per 3 foot cable or $25.90 a pair.
This is the stuff used in studios all over the world.