[[email protected]]

A friend has recently moved his MS-16 into my home studio and I was
testing it out today. It seems to punch in just fine, but the
punching out is incredibly slow - even slower than the old A80 where I
used to work. Is this normal for this machine? If not, what needs
fixing?

Thanks for any info. It's greatly appreciated.

Kris Poulin
Chicago, IL

[Mike Rivers]

On Jul 13, 12:25 am, wrote:

It seems to punch in just fine, but the
punching out is incredibly slow - even slower than the old A80 where I
used to work. Is this normal for this machine?

It shouldn't be slow. What, exactly, is slow? Does it leave a long
erased gap when you drop out of Record? Is it just slow switching from
input to repro monitor? Is it the same on all channels?

Make some measurements so you can tell just how slow it really is.
Record a steady tone and punch a different tone in and out on the
track to analyze what's really happening.

If not, what needs fixing?

Your recorder. But punch timing isn't the same for all machines. If
you're used to a Studer A80, you may need to learn a different rhythm
to get tight punches on the MS16.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 13, 6:15 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:25 am, wrote:

It seems to punch in just fine, but the
punching out is incredibly slow - even slower than the old A80 where I
used to work. Is this normal for this machine?

It shouldn't be slow. What, exactly, is slow?

This reminds me of something I forgot to mention: When punching in,
there is an approximately 250 ms drop out, though, upon play back, the
punch is as tight as I could ask for. Punching out is basically the
opposite.


Does it leave a long erased gap when you drop out of Record?

It's not so much a long erased gap as it is a really quick crossfade.
Again, we're talking about 250 ms.


Is it just slow switching from input to repro monitor?

See above.


Is it the same on all channels?

It is the same - or at least very close - on all channels.


Make some measurements so you can tell just how slow it really is.
Record a steady tone and punch a different tone in and out on the
track to analyze what's really happening.

I ran two tests; one of steady tones and one of a bass player bussed
to all the tracks. Punching in from one tone to the next, seemed OK -
just a slight crossfade effect. Punching in on the bass playing
sounded like music - I was able to punch in between the notes as
desired.

Punching out yielded essentially the same result on both the tones and
bass playing; the above-mentioned 250 ms "smear" or crossfade.


If not, what needs fixing?

Your recorder. But punch timing isn't the same for all machines. If
you're used to a Studer A80, you may need to learn a different rhythm
to get tight punches on theMS16.

Yes, the recorder! Gotcha. I'd already eliminated things like the
mixing desk, the microphones, and the coffee maker!

I was asking what parts inside the machine might I look at first as
requiring adjustment or replacement. I not a proper tech, but I'd at
least like to narrow it down a bit before I get one in here. Or, if
it's simple enough, do it myself.

I hope it's just a matter of getting used to the MS16, but I'd be
surprised if it is. I haven't worked on an A80 since that studio
closed 4 years ago and, since then, it's been every variety from
MX5050 to MTR90 to A820 to JH24, etc., with very short learning curves
to manage acceptable punches.

Thanks again.

Kris Poulin
Chicago, IL

[Mike Rivers]

On Jul 14, 12:12 pm, wrote:

This reminds me of something I forgot to mention: When punching in,
there is an approximately 250 ms drop out, though, upon play back, the
punch is as tight as I could ask for. Punching out is basically the
opposite.

There has to be a ramp-up and ramp-down of the bias and erase current
so you don't record a click. I suspect that the time that you're
hearing is inherent in the machine's design. You may be able to modify
the timing of the control circuitry by changing a capacitor value to
speed that up. There was a modification like that for the Ampex
MM-1100 that I used to have.

I ran two tests; one of steady tones and one of a bass player bussed
to all the tracks. Punching in from one tone to the next, seemed OK -
just a slight crossfade effect. Punching in on the bass playing
sounded like music - I was able to punch in between the notes as
desired.

Sounds to me like it's working normally. Best policy is to make your
punches in places where they'll be audible.

I was asking what parts inside the machine might I look at first as
requiring adjustment or replacement. I not a proper tech, but I'd at
least like to narrow it down a bit before I get one in here.

You'd need a proper tech. I don't think there's anything defective,
but if your tech can locate the record timing circuitry he may be able
to speed that up by changing the value of a capacitor or resistor.

I have a Mackie HDR24/96 that does some housekeeping every time a
channel comes out of record. If you do a 24-track "rolling" punch-out,
unless it's a very short recording, there's quite a noticeable delay
before the original track starts playing again. But the acutal punch
is as accurate as your finger was on the button. Now THAT'S something
that takes getting used to. But I just have learned how to avoid it
most of the time and it doesn't bother anybody. There sure was a lot
of fussing about it when the machine first came out, though. Everybody
was concocting unrealistic demonstrations to show how bad it was.

[[email protected]]

I meant to finish off this thread a week ago, when I discovered some
info in a friend's MS-16 manual that has all of its pages. (Mine's
missing a few...)

According to the manual, this machine is actually up to spec!
Boooooo. According to the book, punch in time is 170 ms and punch out
time is 230 ms.

Like Mike said in the first place, I'll just have to get used to its
timing.





On Jul 14, 11:12 am, wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:15 am, Mike Rivers wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:25 am, wrote:

It seems to punch in just fine, but the
punching out is incredibly slow - even slower than the old A80 where I
used to work. Is this normal for this machine?

It shouldn't be slow. What, exactly, is slow?

This reminds me of something I forgot to mention: When punching in,
there is an approximately 250 ms drop out, though, upon play back, the
punch is as tight as I could ask for. Punching out is basically the
opposite.

Does it leave a long erased gap when you drop out of Record?

It's not so much a long erased gap as it is a really quick crossfade.
Again, we're talking about 250 ms.

Is it just slow switching from input to repro monitor?

See above.

Is it the same on all channels?

It is the same - or at least very close - on all channels.

Make some measurements so you can tell just how slow it really is.
Record a steady tone and punch a different tone in and out on the
track to analyze what's really happening.

I ran two tests; one of steady tones and one of a bass player bussed
to all the tracks. Punching in from one tone to the next, seemed OK -
just a slight crossfade effect. Punching in on the bass playing
sounded like music - I was able to punch in between the notes as
desired.

Punching out yielded essentially the same result on both the tones and
bass playing; the above-mentioned 250 ms "smear" or crossfade.

If not, what needs fixing?

Your recorder. But punch timing isn't the same for all machines. If
you're used to a Studer A80, you may need to learn a different rhythm
to get tight punches on theMS16.

Yes, the recorder! Gotcha. I'd already eliminated things like the
mixing desk, the microphones, and the coffee maker!

I was asking what parts inside the machine might I look at first as
requiring adjustment or replacement. I not a proper tech, but I'd at
least like to narrow it down a bit before I get one in here. Or, if
it's simple enough, do it myself.

I hope it's just a matter of getting used to theMS16, but I'd be
surprised if it is. I haven't worked on an A80 since that studio
closed 4 years ago and, since then, it's been every variety from
MX5050 to MTR90 to A820 to JH24, etc., with very short learning curves
to manage acceptable punches.

Thanks again.

Kris Poulin
Chicago, IL

[[email protected]]

Punch in time is actually 130 ms and punch out time is 270 ms.


On Jul 31, 11:13 pm, wrote:
I meant to finish off this thread a week ago, when I discovered some
info in a friend'sMS-16manual that has all of its pages. (Mine's
missing a few...)

According to the manual, this machine is actually up to spec!
Boooooo. According to the book,punchin time is 170 ms andpunchout
time is 230 ms.

Like Mike said in the first place, I'll just have to get used to its
timing.