[Phil Allison]

** See ABSE for latest " mystery pic ".

Tell us what it is, if you can.




........ Phil

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...



** See ABSE for latest " mystery pic ".

Tell us what it is, if you can.

**A Quad ESL stator, manufactured by Otto Major?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"

** See ABSE for latest " mystery pic ".

Tell us what it is, if you can.

**A Quad ESL stator, manufactured by Otto Major?


** You are not Pat Turner.

I can tell very easily as the real Pat has anode caps growing out of his
scull.


However, you are warm.

Mr Major is not involved.

And what about that mesh ??



........ Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"

** See ABSE for latest " mystery pic ".

Tell us what it is, if you can.

**A Quad ESL stator, manufactured by Otto Major?

** You are not Pat Turner.

I can tell very easily as the real Pat has anode caps growing out of his
scull.

However, you are warm.

Mr Major is not involved.

And what about that mesh ??

....... Phil

I can't receive the abse posts like others can so I dunno what
there is to look at.
I get a feeling I may not be missing out on very much.

I did perhaps wonder if you thought perhaps I was taking some advice
from Otto
about ESL construction, because of the difficulties I have had with ERA
ESL-3B kits.

But no, its about 8 years since I last saw Otto.

There is however another guy in Sydney who is probably unknown to any of
you,
which would be merciful, and he has supplied me with the knowledge and
some materials
for membrane and ES coating which should allow me to make far better
panels
than ERA ever intended their kits to be.

I will have to wind some decent transformers, and thus far
it seems wise to not copy either Quad ESL57, or 63,
but to use a dedicated bass panel tranny, with high leakage L and low
Csh,
and adjustable primary windings for variable ratios,
and then wind another tranny for the mid/treble panels
with about 1/10 of the turns of the bass, so LL and Csh can both be
minimized
easily. The HF tranny can be driven with cap in front to prevent it
loading an amp
adversely.

Thus I should be able to get far better performance than the ERA
trannys,
and give a recipe for everyone else to follow.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"

** See ABSE for latest " mystery pic ".

Tell us what it is, if you can.

**A Quad ESL stator, manufactured by Otto Major?

** You are not Pat Turner.

I can tell very easily as the real Pat has anode caps growing out of his
scull.

However, you are warm.

Mr Major is not involved.

And what about that mesh ??

....... Phil

The mystery pic shown is an ESL63 panel detail taken from the
website at
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html

Phil was telling me the ESL63 panels rely on a fine nylon mesh applied
to
one stator to damp the panel and stop resonances.

Its very difficult to see exactly what sort of nylon mesh was used and
how it is applied
from the image reproduced at abse, and you'd have to see a speaker to
really know,
and I have never seen one pulled apart.

Patrick Turner.

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"

The mystery pic shown is an ESL63 panel detail taken from the
website at
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html


** WRONG pic - you clot.

The extreme close up I posted on Monday ( June 12) was taken by me of a
panel I have here.

See it here, second row, on the right.

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...lectronic.html

The holes are 1.7mm dia.

See the darn mesh now ?



........ Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil was telling me the ESL63 panels rely on a fine nylon mesh applied
to
one stator to damp the panel and stop resonances.

Its very difficult to see exactly what sort of nylon mesh was used and
how it is applied
from the image reproduced at abse, and you'd have to see a speaker to
really know,
and I have never seen one pulled apart.

Patrick Turner.

From the same site it says

"" Note the nylon damping material which is on the rear panel but not on
the front. The damping material is like the sheer nylon used for
stockings and is glued to the stator panel.""

This might be easy to source and apply.

Patrick Turner.

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"

"" Note the nylon damping material which is on the rear panel but not on
the front. The damping material is like the sheer nylon used for
stockings and is glued to the stator panel.""

This might be easy to source and apply.


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.




....... Phil

[Alan Rutlidge]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"

"" Note the nylon damping material which is on the rear panel but not on
the front. The damping material is like the sheer nylon used for
stockings and is glued to the stator panel.""

This might be easy to source and apply.


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.




...... Phil



Lovely carpet in the full view shot - NOT!
Probably that "beautifully cheap and nasty" stuff one finds in down and out
rental bed-sits. :P
Don't ya just love the pink and pale yellow stripes? Where's my bucket?

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/cgi/c...1748239.86.jpg

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

The mystery pic shown is an ESL63 panel detail taken from the
website at
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html


** WRONG pic - you clot.

The extreme close up I posted on Monday ( June 12) was taken by me of a
panel I have here.

See it here, second row, on the right.

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...lectronic.html

The holes are 1.7mm dia.

See the darn mesh now ?

I cannot see the mesh.

The photo you say you took is EXACTLY the same as from the source I
quoted at

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html

The carpet on which the ESL panel rests is indentical, positions
identical, and there
is a terminal in the same position.

Perhaps www.intergracoustics.com got the picture from you?

Anyway, the mesh is like pantyhose material.

Patrick Turner.




....... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

"" Note the nylon damping material which is on the rear panel but not on
the front. The damping material is like the sheer nylon used for
stockings and is glued to the stator panel.""

This might be easy to source and apply.


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.

I have not seen what it is actually like myself, so I don't really know.
But a source I quoted said it was very like stocking or pantyhose in two
different paragraphs.

BS is everywhere on the Net, that we do know, and that we can believe.

But the photo you posted eventually showed up on my comindico.com.au
server
before it expired, and I couldn't see any kind of damping mesh at all;
just the rear or front of an ESL panel.

Apparently, from my learned freind in Sydney, the kind of material
isn't critical, and can be felt, or some other materail as long as it
damps the severe LF resonances ESL panels exhibit which
marred my initial tests of an ERA panel.
Quad would have used what was cheap, effective, long lasting,
and easy to glue on by production workers.

Patrick Turner.





...... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"


The mystery pic shown is an ESL63 panel detail taken from the
website at
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html


** WRONG pic - you clot.

The extreme close up I posted on Monday ( June 12) was taken by me of a
panel I have here.

See it here, second row, on the right.

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...lectronic.html

The holes are 1.7mm dia.

See the darn mesh now ?

I cannot see the mesh.


** YOU are looking at the WRONG pic.

BLOODY IMBECILE !!!

Second row, on the far right.

Looks like black circles on a green background.



...... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.


I have not seen what it is actually like myself, so I don't really know.
But a source I quoted said it was very like stocking or pantyhose in two
different paragraphs.


** Not it did not.

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...lectronic.html

My pic in in the second row down, on the far right.

It is an extreme close up.

Shows only 1 sq cm of the panel and reveals what in down the holes.



........ Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:



** See:

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...lectronic.html

My pic is in the second row down, on the far right.

It is an extreme close up.

Shows only 1 sq cm of the panel and reveals what is down the holes.

OK, I now see YOUR close up this when I go to replayer.

Before, only ONE photo appeared at
ABSE which I could see via my ISP, and it was the same pic
as at a source I quoted, and as I thought only 1 pic was posted as a
mystery pic,
I was not looking for a second one.

Your photo DOES show the fine mesh behind the 1.7mm stator holes,
and looks like a fine square weave material, maybe 0.1mm between
threads,
and traces of glue spread, thus the air flow is restricted through the
rear stator holes,
which will occur at LF resonances when the membrane becomes very
sensitive
with regard to movement vs input voltage.
I guess they cover the stator with glue, but the holes are free of glue,
then they
lay the fine nylon gauze material down over the lot, probably with a jig
to prevent the
gauze moving much and dragging glue to obstruct stator holes.
HF would pass through with very little attenuation.

I though about doing something very similar with material to the
speakers I am building,
and may proceed, but I have to coat the whole of the rear of the stator
panel with a suitable adhesive then
evenly press it down without smearing or spreading out the glue...some
expertise with each technique is needed.

The QuadESL63 acoustic damping methode reminds me of the "aperiodic"
loading used in dynamic
speakers where a number of cloth layers are stretched across a port in a
bass speaker
to damp resonant behaviour, so the box is acts somewhat between a ported
and closed condition.

I have a shirtload of other work before i can return to the building of
my own versions of home made ESL, using just a few parts which were
supplied by ER Audio.
I have a new membrane material and I have a new coating material which
gives gigaohms,
not just megohms of resistance,
so the membranes should not arc to stators, and will more likely act
with constant charge, not
constant voltage, which can give drift in charge density under dynamic
conditions.
I measured the resistance of the ER Audio coating and found it MUCH
lower than the coating
provided to me for my panels. Its a secret, so don't ask me what's in
it.
In the damp rainly Sydney weather the ER Audio coating could easily be
wiped off the membrane.
Maybe its detergent based; I have no idea exactly what's in it, but it
ain't like original Quad
coating which was/is/remains good.

I also want to make the midrange units a smaller length than 1.2M, maybe
only 450 long,
with closer stator spacing than the ERA panels, and also have a small
tweeter
of only a maybe 100mm long. I don't see much need to have such a long
line of tweeter,
and I think a more nearly point source ESL tweeter will give a better
treble response.

From what I heard at my Sydney friend's house, there is NO need to have
the mid/treble panels
located in the centre of a bass panel like ESL57. Its fine to have
a pass panel 1.2M high x 0.6M wide, divided into 5 strips of around
100mm wide each.
The mid and treble units can be on the inside edge of the bass panels,
and mirror pattern for L and R.

If one sits at 3.5M away from a treble strip that is 1.2M long, then
there are considerable
differences in the arrival times for different F, depending on
wavelengths,
very much like what you'd get if you have a line array of dynamics where
supposedly a single vertical wave front arrives.

My own tests of the ER Audio panel revealed a considerable beaminess
with treble,
and mid/treble varied a lot between say 1.5M above FL and 0.8M which is
about the
seated-in-lounge height.

Patrick Turner.












....... Phil

[Sander deWaal]

Patrick Turner said:


The mystery pic shown is an ESL63 panel detail taken from the
website at
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M...ey_you/63.html

Phil was telling me the ESL63 panels rely on a fine nylon mesh applied
to
one stator to damp the panel and stop resonances.

Its very difficult to see exactly what sort of nylon mesh was used and
how it is applied
from the image reproduced at abse, and you'd have to see a speaker to
really know,
and I have never seen one pulled apart.


Offtopic: are you familiar with the 63QA on Manfred's site?
http://www.quad-musik.de/html/us.html

I've heard them recently.
Best friggin' Quad ESL I've ever heard.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Phil Allison]

"Sander deWaal"

Offtopic: are you familiar with the 63QA on Manfred's site?
http://www.quad-musik.de/html/us.html

I've heard them recently.
Best friggin' Quad ESL I've ever heard.


** Even the page says they perform just the same as standard ESL63s.

A nice pair of which I have in the lounge right now - running from a STB
and DVD player and driven by the astonishing Quad 306 amp.

Makes the new " Doctor Who" really worth watching.



....... Phil

[Sander deWaal]

"Phil Allison" said:


"Sander deWaal"

http://www.quad-musik.de/html/us.html

I've heard them recently.
Best friggin' Quad ESL I've ever heard.


** Even the page says they perform just the same as standard ESL63s.


Manfred's a modest person.
*I* think they're the 63s that Quad *should* have built.

A very coherent loudspeaker system.

And I know the sound of stock 63s as well.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[[email protected]]

On Jun 14, 7:36 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

** See:

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...matics.electro...

My pic is in the second row down, on the far right.

It is an extreme close up.

Shows only 1 sq cm of the panel and reveals what is down the holes.

OK, I now see YOUR close up this when I go to replayer.

Before, only ONE photo appeared at
ABSE which I could see via my ISP, and it was the same pic
as at a source I quoted, and as I thought only 1 pic was posted as a
mystery pic,
I was not looking for a second one.

Your photo DOES show the fine mesh behind the 1.7mm stator holes,
and looks like a fine square weave material, maybe 0.1mm between
threads,
and traces of glue spread, thus the air flow is restricted through the
rear stator holes,
which will occur at LF resonances when the membrane becomes very
sensitive
with regard to movement vs input voltage.
I guess they cover the stator with glue, but the holes are free of glue,
then they
lay the fine nylon gauze material down over the lot, probably with a jig
to prevent the
gauze moving much and dragging glue to obstruct stator holes.
HF would pass through with very little attenuation.

I though about doing something very similar with material to the
speakers I am building,
and may proceed, but I have to coat the whole of the rear of the stator
panel with a suitable adhesive then
evenly press it down without smearing or spreading out the glue...some
expertise with each technique is needed.

The QuadESL63 acoustic damping methode reminds me of the "aperiodic"
loading used in dynamic
speakers where a number of cloth layers are stretched across a port in a
bass speaker
to damp resonant behaviour, so the box is acts somewhat between a ported
and closed condition.

I have a shirtload of other work before i can return to the building of
my own versions of home made ESL, using just a few parts which were
supplied by ER Audio.
I have a new membrane material and I have a new coating material which
gives gigaohms,
not just megohms of resistance,
so the membranes should not arc to stators, and will more likely act
with constant charge, not
constant voltage, which can give drift in charge density under dynamic
conditions.
I measured the resistance of the ER Audio coating and found it MUCH
lower than the coating
provided to me for my panels. Its a secret, so don't ask me what's in
it.
In the damp rainly Sydney weather the ER Audio coating could easily be
wiped off the membrane.
Maybe its detergent based; I have no idea exactly what's in it, but it
ain't like original Quad
coating which was/is/remains good.

I also want to make the midrange units a smaller length than 1.2M, maybe
only 450 long,
with closer stator spacing than the ERA panels, and also have a small
tweeter
of only a maybe 100mm long. I don't see much need to have such a long
line of tweeter,
and I think a more nearly point source ESL tweeter will give a better
treble response.

From what I heard at my Sydney friend's house, there is NO need to have
the mid/treble panels
located in the centre of a bass panel like ESL57. Its fine to have
a pass panel 1.2M high x 0.6M wide, divided into 5 strips of around
100mm wide each.
The mid and treble units can be on the inside edge of the bass panels,
and mirror pattern for L and R.

If one sits at 3.5M away from a treble strip that is 1.2M long, then
there are considerable
differences in the arrival times for different F, depending on
wavelengths,
very much like what you'd get if you have a line array of dynamics where
supposedly a single vertical wave front arrives.

My own tests of the ER Audio panel revealed a considerable beaminess
with treble,
and mid/treble varied a lot between say 1.5M above FL and 0.8M which is
about the
seated-in-lounge height.

Patrick Turner.



....... Phil

Hi

The nylon that is used in the ESL63 looks very much like the nylon
they use for silk screening. Check an art supply store. In Canada the
local art store sells it by the foot in a 6 ft width. I haven't tried
this myself I just happened to see it while shopping and made a
mental note to try some when I start rebuilding my ESL63s.
Andrew

[Phil Allison]

"Sander de****** "

http://www.quad-musik.de/html/us.html

I've heard them recently.
Best friggin' Quad ESL I've ever heard.


** Even the page says they perform just the same as standard ESL63s.


Manfred's a modest person.


** So nothing like the pathetic, posturing, pompous ass you are ??

**** off - de****** .




........ Phil

[Patrick Turner]

wrote:

On Jun 14, 7:36 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

** See:

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...matics.electro...

My pic is in the second row down, on the far right.

It is an extreme close up.

Shows only 1 sq cm of the panel and reveals what is down the holes.

OK, I now see YOUR close up this when I go to replayer.

Before, only ONE photo appeared at
ABSE which I could see via my ISP, and it was the same pic
as at a source I quoted, and as I thought only 1 pic was posted as a
mystery pic,
I was not looking for a second one.

Your photo DOES show the fine mesh behind the 1.7mm stator holes,
and looks like a fine square weave material, maybe 0.1mm between
threads,
and traces of glue spread, thus the air flow is restricted through the
rear stator holes,
which will occur at LF resonances when the membrane becomes very
sensitive
with regard to movement vs input voltage.
I guess they cover the stator with glue, but the holes are free of glue,
then they
lay the fine nylon gauze material down over the lot, probably with a jig
to prevent the
gauze moving much and dragging glue to obstruct stator holes.
HF would pass through with very little attenuation.

I though about doing something very similar with material to the
speakers I am building,
and may proceed, but I have to coat the whole of the rear of the stator
panel with a suitable adhesive then
evenly press it down without smearing or spreading out the glue...some
expertise with each technique is needed.

The QuadESL63 acoustic damping methode reminds me of the "aperiodic"
loading used in dynamic
speakers where a number of cloth layers are stretched across a port in a
bass speaker
to damp resonant behaviour, so the box is acts somewhat between a ported
and closed condition.

I have a shirtload of other work before i can return to the building of
my own versions of home made ESL, using just a few parts which were
supplied by ER Audio.
I have a new membrane material and I have a new coating material which
gives gigaohms,
not just megohms of resistance,
so the membranes should not arc to stators, and will more likely act
with constant charge, not
constant voltage, which can give drift in charge density under dynamic
conditions.
I measured the resistance of the ER Audio coating and found it MUCH
lower than the coating
provided to me for my panels. Its a secret, so don't ask me what's in
it.
In the damp rainly Sydney weather the ER Audio coating could easily be
wiped off the membrane.
Maybe its detergent based; I have no idea exactly what's in it, but it
ain't like original Quad
coating which was/is/remains good.

I also want to make the midrange units a smaller length than 1.2M, maybe
only 450 long,
with closer stator spacing than the ERA panels, and also have a small
tweeter
of only a maybe 100mm long. I don't see much need to have such a long
line of tweeter,
and I think a more nearly point source ESL tweeter will give a better
treble response.

From what I heard at my Sydney friend's house, there is NO need to have
the mid/treble panels
located in the centre of a bass panel like ESL57. Its fine to have
a pass panel 1.2M high x 0.6M wide, divided into 5 strips of around
100mm wide each.
The mid and treble units can be on the inside edge of the bass panels,
and mirror pattern for L and R.

If one sits at 3.5M away from a treble strip that is 1.2M long, then
there are considerable
differences in the arrival times for different F, depending on
wavelengths,
very much like what you'd get if you have a line array of dynamics where
supposedly a single vertical wave front arrives.

My own tests of the ER Audio panel revealed a considerable beaminess
with treble,
and mid/treble varied a lot between say 1.5M above FL and 0.8M which is
about the
seated-in-lounge height.

Patrick Turner.



....... Phil

Hi

The nylon that is used in the ESL63 looks very much like the nylon
they use for silk screening. Check an art supply store. In Canada the
local art store sells it by the foot in a 6 ft width. I haven't tried
this myself I just happened to see it while shopping and made a
mental note to try some when I start rebuilding my ESL63s.
Andrew

Thanks Andrew, probably you are right, because pantyhose material would
not last indefinately...

Patrick Turner.

[-=Spudley=-]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.


SHADE MESH?

snip

[Ian Mitchell]

"-=Spudley=-" wrote in message
...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.


SHADE MESH?

snip


Fly Screen?

[Patrick Turner]

Ian Mitchell wrote:

"-=Spudley=-" wrote in message
...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"


** See MY pic - you clot.

It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.


SHADE MESH?

snip


Fly Screen?

Nylon fly screen glued on the INSIDE of the metal stator plates
if used on ESL is good practice to prvent the membrane travelling
all the way over toward the stator plate.

But the really fine nylon cloth is needed for the damping, on the
outside of the stator.
Probably, it could be placed on the inside though.

Patrick Turner.

[Alan Rutlidge]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Thanks Andrew, probably you are right, because pantyhose material would
not last indefinately...

Patrick Turner.

Yeah, especially if Phil had been wearing them. :P

[roughplanet]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Patrick Turner"

"" Note the nylon damping material which is on the rear panel but not on
the front. The damping material is like the sheer nylon used for
stockings and is glued to the stator panel.""

This might be easy to source and apply.

** See MY pic - you clot.
It definitely ain't nylon stocking material.

Nope, Philthy gave up wearing nylon pantyhose after one of his associates
tried to strangle him with it in a moment of hightened frenzy. Much harder
to do with leather long johns :-).

ruff