[hawk]

Hi,

Amateur, building out my home studio. Recently shopping for lots of
cables online, mostly through the big sites: Zzounds, Swee****er,
Musicians Friend, etc.

My studio now has lots of stereo instruments: keyboard, groovebox,
computer, turntables.... I.e., these sound sources all send a stereo
audio signal out. In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get
higher quality cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making
stereo cables...?

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all. This kinda makes
sense, since mics are often mono instruments, but then I thought of
all the applications for stereo paired micing, and it seemed like it
would be obvious to have a stereo xlr cable for these applications.

So, my first question is: what gives? Is there a reason not to have
10-20' runs of bal/unbal stereo paired cables? Potentially noise
inducing...? I just can't think of a reason....

Second, assuming it's ok to run stereo paired cables, how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables? I'm just trying
to keep my studio more organized, and the paired cables really help
with that. So: tape them together (yuck)? Tie them together? I'm
imagining some kind of awsome heat-shrink wrapper I could slide over
the pairs and then turn a heat gun on to make a really slick stereo
cable. Anyone know of anything like that? And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

Any suggestions would be really helpful, and many thanks in advance.

Hawkeye Parker

[Scott Fraser]

My studio now has lots of stereo instruments: keyboard, groovebox,
computer, turntables.... I.e., these sound sources all send a stereo
audio signal out.

More likely pseudo-stereo, but that's beside the point.

In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get higher quality
cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts) cables in my
searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making stereo cables...?


And Hosa should not be considered in any environment requiring quality
nor reliability.

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all. This kinda makes
sense, since mics are often mono instruments, but then I thought of
all the applications for stereo paired micing, and it seemed like it
would be obvious to have a stereo xlr cable for these applications.

Yup, stereo cables make a lot of sense for certain applications.

So, my first question is: what gives? Is there a reason not to
have 10-20' runs of bal/unbal stereo paired cables? Potentially noise
inducing...? I just can't think of a reason....

Nope, no reason at all. Noise is no different than with mono cabling.

Second, assuming it's ok to run stereo paired cables, how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables?

You don't use 2 cables. Get 2 pair snake or multicore cable. Canare &
Mogami make pro cable in 2 pair configuration, & probably the other
major makers (Belden, Gepco, etc) do too.

I'm just trying to keep my studio more organized, and the paired
cables really help with that. So: tape them together (yuck)? Tie
them together? I'm imagining some kind of awsome heat-shrink wrapper
I could slide over the pairs and then turn a heat gun on to make a
really slick stereo cable. Anyone know of anything like that?

None of the above. You'll end up with a mess that is nowhere near as
flexible as cable with the proper number of conductors inside.

And how to best mark the left and right ends?

That one's easy. Either get a label maker & stick "Left" & "Right"
labels on each XLR, or use a color code. The industry standard is Blue
= Left, Red = Right.

Any suggestions would be really helpful, and many thanks in
advance.

Just get proper 2 pair cable & don't bother trying to get 2 individual
cables to stick together. If you don't mind soldering & want maximum
flexibility, build a number of different lengths with 5 pin XLRs on
each end, & several 5 to 3 pin XLR split outs to attach to each end of
the lengths as needed.

Scott Fraser

[hawk]

Perfect. Awesome. Thankyou!

[tmaki]

hawk wrote:
Amateur, building out my home studio. Recently shopping for lots of
cables

how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables?

Anyone know of anything like that? And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

Any suggestions would be really helpful

Belden, Gepco, West Penn all sell multi-pair cables. Gepco, Canare and
Belden (and most of the rest) all sell "star-quad" or "quad-star" cable
which is 2 pairs. Gepco has a "zip cord" 2-pr. (61801EZGF) if you don't
care for -quad. (I'm just in the middle of ordering 10,000 ft. of
several Gepco products right now, so Gepco is on my mind, but certainly
Belden, etc. are good choices. Get their catalogs.)

Choose your cable, get some connectors, warm up your soldering station
and git 'er done. Label any way you want. Clear shrink over paper works.
Lack fabricating skills? Hire it done.

It's easy. Good luck.



TM

[Paul Stamler]

And if you don't want to mess with the soldering yourself, you can get
almost anything made up for you by www.markertek.com . (Excepting Alice.)

Peace,
Paul

[Gidney N. Cloyd]

hawk wrote:

My studio now has lots of stereo instruments ...
... but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches.

....

Hosa seems to be the only big brand making stereo cables...?

Ick!

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all.

Gepco D61801EZGF or D72401EZGF dual channel zip-cord; see

http://gepco.com/products/proav_cabl...gdual_22_M.htm
http://gepco.com/products/proav_cabl...gdual_24_M.htm

They'll sell you cut lengths other than full spool.

Get red and white shrink tube to go under the strain relief of your
TRS or XLR connectors to mark right&left, although you don't need it
because on conductor has a red stripe on the jacket.

-- Mike

[Richard Crowley]

"Paul Stamler" wrote ...
And if you don't want to mess with the soldering yourself, you can get
almost anything made up for you by www.markertek.com . (Excepting Alice.)

Or www.redco.com

[Allen Corneau]

On 5/1/07 1:44 PM, in article
, "hawk"
wrote:


My studio now has lots of stereo instruments: keyboard, groovebox,
computer, turntables.... I.e., these sound sources all send a stereo
audio signal out. In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get
higher quality cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making
stereo cables...?

Belden 1504A is single cable made up of a bonded pair, each a twisted-pair
with foil shields. It's kind of stiff, so it's better used in installations,
and it splits the two pairs apart like zip wire.

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/jsp/In...defined&P3=und
efined&P4=undefined&P5=undefined&P6=undefined


all the applications for stereo paired micing, and it seemed like it
would be obvious to have a stereo xlr cable for these applications.

Most stereo mic's use 5-pin XLR's on a single dual-pair cable. 2 pins for
each +/- and a common shield. Use a break-out cable to get it back to two
XLR's.

http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...2E5&off=426 &
sort=prod


And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

When you buy your XLR's, get the colored boots., like a standard black for
left and red for right.

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...class=CONNB O
OTS&baseitem=NT%2DBSX%2DBK&search=0&off=0&showretu rn=1


Hope that helps. Good luck with your cables.


Allen
--
Allen Corneau
Mastering Engineer
Essential Sound Mastering
www.esmastering.com

[Mike Rivers]

On May 1, 2:44 pm, hawk wrote:

In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get
higher quality cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making
stereo cables...?

Unlike my 'steemed colleage, I see no reason not to use Hosa cables
for this application. While I might have some reservation about using
them in a mission critical portable setup, using them to connect
things that don't get plugged and unplugged every night is perfectly
reasonable. I've put together several systems using Hosa cables
(including the dual cables you seek) and they're still working after
many years.

The reason, however, why you don't see a lot of that type of cable is
that they're not used very often. Most people just use individual
cables and bundle them together. If one fails, you only have to
replace one, not two. There are a number of bundling systems ranging
from plastic cable ties (TyWraps) to split tubing, to spiral wrap, to
wire ducts, to this nifty but a bit expensive stuff from http://www.audioskin.net

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all.

I've seen such cables, but they're not very common. Generally people
who need them need very longs ones, like for hanging overhead mics in
a concert hall, and make their own.

Second, assuming it's ok to run stereo paired cables, how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables?

You really can't. But what you can do is bundle eight of them together
for most of the distance between (for example) your mixer and your
synths, and then break out pairs going to four synths. Or to four
effect processors. Small cable ties work fine for short bundles of
two or four.

imagining some kind of awsome heat-shrink wrapper I could slide over
the pairs and then turn a heat gun on to make a really slick stereo
cable. Anyone know of anything like that? And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

Bundling cables like that is harder than you think. It's like trying
to push a piece of rope. However, there are slick ways to mark the
ends. If you're building cables (so you don't have a connector on the
cable yet) you can use your computer to print labels, cut them out,
lay them lengthwise over the cable near the end, slip a piece of clear
heat shrink tubing over them, and shrink it down. Then put on the
connector. Or if you have cables already assembled, you can do the
same sort of thing using larger diameter heat shrink tubing over the
plug body. Brady (I thinik) makes a label printer that will print on
heat shrink tubing, too. It's pretty cool if you'll be making enough
labels to justify the cost of the printer (close to $200).

It's good that you're thinking of these things. You just need to
experiment a bit to figure out what works best for you. You can use
tape temporarily to bundle cables together, and then when you figure
out what you need you can get another material to hold the bunch
together.

[Scott Dorsey]

hawk wrote:

My studio now has lots of stereo instruments: keyboard, groovebox,
computer, turntables.... I.e., these sound sources all send a stereo
audio signal out. In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get
higher quality cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making
stereo cables...?

So use two mono cables.

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all. This kinda makes
sense, since mics are often mono instruments, but then I thought of
all the applications for stereo paired micing, and it seemed like it
would be obvious to have a stereo xlr cable for these applications.

This is called a "two channel snake" and lots of folks make them.
Markertek can set you up with one. When you're unreeling a
thousand feet of cable from the truck to the mikes, having just one
cable to unreel rather than two can be a big help.

So, my first question is: what gives? Is there a reason not to have
10-20' runs of bal/unbal stereo paired cables? Potentially noise
inducing...? I just can't think of a reason....

It costs more money, and it's less flexible.

Second, assuming it's ok to run stereo paired cables, how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables? I'm just trying
to keep my studio more organized, and the paired cables really help
with that. So: tape them together (yuck)? Tie them together? I'm
imagining some kind of awsome heat-shrink wrapper I could slide over
the pairs and then turn a heat gun on to make a really slick stereo
cable. Anyone know of anything like that? And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

No, you buy premade stereo cable. If you want siamese types, Gepco
makes an excellent "S-Video" cable that is great for stereo unbalanced
audio, and Gotham makes a balanced siamese mike cable. You order them
terminated with connectors, or raw.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Carey Carlan]

Scott Fraser wrote in
oups.com:

And how to best mark the left and right ends?

That one's easy. Either get a label maker & stick "Left" & "Right"
labels on each XLR, or use a color code. The industry standard is Blue
= Left, Red = Right.

I keep red heat shrink tubing on hand. A short length on the end of the
right cable before I solder the connector makes ID easy.

[Scott Fraser]

Unlike my 'steemed colleague, I see no reason not to use Hosa cables for this application. While I might have some reservation about using them in a mission critical portable setup, using them to connect things that don't get plugged and unplugged every night is perfectly reasonable.

Your colleague is steamed because of several (i.e. more than one)
cable failures involving Hosa products during concert performances.
Although I can't imagine any application not being mission critical in
some way, I guess there are some relaxed audio situations that don't
involve lots of paying customers. Still, even in the comfort of home I
wouldn't want any wires going belly up.

Bundling cables like that is harder than you think.

And makes them pretty stiff, too.

Scott Fraser

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Unlike my 'steemed colleage, I see no reason not to use Hosa cables
for this application. While I might have some reservation about using
them in a mission critical portable setup, using them to connect
things that don't get plugged and unplugged every night is perfectly
reasonable. I've put together several systems using Hosa cables
(including the dual cables you seek) and they're still working after
many years.

I think that whenever the choice is between Monster and HOSA I should go
with HOSA. Instead of spending everything on marketing like Monster
does, HOSA spends it where it counts, on blister pack.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[[email protected]]

On May 1, 3:17 pm, tmaki wrote:
Belden, Gepco, West Penn all sell multi-pair cables. Gepco, Canare and
Belden (and most of the rest) all sell "star-quad" or "quad-star" cable
which is 2 pairs.

the star quad is designed for eliminating rf and em in the mic cable,
it is not in it's own right stereo... though they do make stereo star
quad
and more

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obje...BAF-3048-7098-
AF9FCBEF6DC30BEF

[tmaki[_2_]]

wrote:
On May 1, 3:17 pm, tmaki wrote:
Belden, Gepco, West Penn all sell multi-pair cables. Gepco, Canare and
Belden (and most of the rest) all sell "star-quad" or "quad-star" cable
which is 2 pairs.

the star quad is designed for eliminating rf and em in the mic cable,
it is not in it's own right stereo...

Right... and the several thousand feet of it (in many various lengths)
that I've been using since 1982 has worked quite well for carrying two
channels.


TM

[Richard Crowley]

"tmaki" wrote...
wrote:
the star quad is designed for eliminating rf and em in the mic cable,
it is not in it's own right stereo...

Right... and the several thousand feet of it (in many various lengths)
that I've been using since 1982 has worked quite well for carrying two
channels.

Likewise. I wouldn't run two completely different signals
over the "two pair", but the acoustics in the live situations
where I record tend to swamp out any electronic crosstalk
between the Left and Right channels.

[Scott Fraser]

the star quad is designed for eliminating rf and em in the mic cable,
it is not in it's own right stereo...

Right... and the several thousand feet of it (in many various lengths)
that I've been using since 1982 has worked quite well for carrying two
channels.

Likewise. I wouldn't run two completely different signals
over the "two pair", but the acoustics in the live situations
where I record tend to swamp out any electronic crosstalk
between the Left and Right channels.

I used to use Canare StarQuad as a stereo pair for location recording,
but I did get some RF interference in some venues with certain mic
pairs into certain preamps. The problem was not interchannel
crosstalk. With coincident stereo miking that would not have been
particularly detectable. It was induced noise, & occurred with KM140s,
which I've heard may have problems driving very long cable into
transformerless inputs. I now only use 2 pair for stereo cables & have
not run into any noise issues.

Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

On May 2, 10:53 am, Scott Fraser wrote:

I used to use Canare StarQuad as a stereo pair for location recording,
but I did get some RF interference in some venues with certain mic
pairs into certain preamps.

It's possible that you would have had the RFI problem no matter what,
but when you use star quad cable as two twisted pairs, it no longer
functions as star quad cable for reducing RFI.

When you use the twisted (for example) white and blue wires as a pair,
you lose the reduced loop area that you have when using the two blue
wires in parallel as one conductor and the two white wires as the
other conductor.

[Tim Padrick]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
hawk wrote:

My studio now has lots of stereo instruments: keyboard, groovebox,
computer, turntables.... I.e., these sound sources all send a stereo
audio signal out. In my recent cable purchases, I was trying to get
higher quality cables, but it was hard to find stereo trs (or even ts)
cables in my searches. Hosa seems to be the only big brand making
stereo cables...?

So use two mono cables.

I also have a stereo mic setup for live, ambient recording, a Rode
NT4. Couldn't find any stereo XLR cables at all. This kinda makes
sense, since mics are often mono instruments, but then I thought of
all the applications for stereo paired micing, and it seemed like it
would be obvious to have a stereo xlr cable for these applications.

This is called a "two channel snake" and lots of folks make them.
Markertek can set you up with one. When you're unreeling a
thousand feet of cable from the truck to the mikes, having just one
cable to unreel rather than two can be a big help.

So, my first question is: what gives? Is there a reason not to have
10-20' runs of bal/unbal stereo paired cables? Potentially noise
inducing...? I just can't think of a reason....

It costs more money, and it's less flexible.

Second, assuming it's ok to run stereo paired cables, how can I
fashion a decent pair out of two individual cables? I'm just trying
to keep my studio more organized, and the paired cables really help
with that. So: tape them together (yuck)? Tie them together? I'm
imagining some kind of awsome heat-shrink wrapper I could slide over
the pairs and then turn a heat gun on to make a really slick stereo
cable. Anyone know of anything like that? And how to best mark the
left and right ends?

No, you buy premade stereo cable. If you want siamese types, Gepco
makes an excellent "S-Video" cable that is great for stereo unbalanced
audio, and Gotham makes a balanced siamese mike cable. You order them
terminated with connectors, or raw.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Gotham makes a very nice "stereo" cable. I think it's GAC2PR or something
like that.

[Scott Fraser]

It's possible that you would have had the RFI problem no matter what,

Might could be, but 'misuse' of the StarQuad seemed a reasonable
preliminary conclusion, & replacing the StarQuad with 2 pair has
appeared to alleviate the issue, although I haven't tested the
hypothesis further than this.

but when you use star quad cable as two twisted pairs, it no longer
functions as star quad cable for reducing RFI.

And should be no different than 2 pair other than lacking an
individual shield per pair. Anyway, less than stellar results
convinced me not to wire StarQuad for stereo miking purposes. It might
be great at line level & seems to work well for Toby.

Scott Fraser

[tmaki[_2_]]

Scott Fraser wrote:


And should be no different than 2 pair other than lacking an
individual shield per pair. Anyway, less than stellar results
convinced me not to wire StarQuad for stereo miking purposes. It might
be great at line level & seems to work well for Toby.

Wes Dooley gave me the recommendation in '82 when I bought my first pair
of mics from him. I've never had a problem with RFI even here in
RF-saturated southern California.

BTW Scott, next time you come to the Bowl with the trio or quartet,
we'll have all new cabling throughout. 60 new mic lines, 16 patchable
returns to stage and back to the rack, DMX and Ethernet at the board
position, upstage light positions, spot positions, and all new patch
panels on stage and backstage. Might even have a Roland digital snake
(which I nay purchase for myself.) Trying to "future-proof" things as
much as possible with what we know today. Besides, a new generation is
coming along, and after 29 years out there, I've got to think about
retiring :-)



TM