[nebulax]

"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA! What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml

[CB]

"nebulax" wrote in message
...
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
.. .
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
. ..
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

What it comes down to is the RIGHT ( not 'priviledge' ) of
self defense. Our entire legal system is founded on the concept of
'protection of the rights of the innocent', even when they have the
undesired effect of protecting the rights of the guilty. Our entire
legal system is based on the concept of 'better that 10 guilty men go
free than that one innocent man goes to jail'. The same applies to
self-defense - it is not acceptable for even one person to be stripped
of their RIGHT to self-defense, regardless of whether there are
criminals in society who find in that a way to twist it to their
advantage.

The way to control crime is to control criminals, not
law-abiding people. It's a lot tougher task, granted, because
law-abiding people are amenable to obeying the law ( duh ), while
criminals routinely break it.




--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
wrote:

dw:
I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year.

You'd think Britain would be depopulated by now.

Just what RAO needs, a gun thread.

Stephen

[Mitchell Holman]

"nebulax" wrote in
:

"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/.../main2698141.s
html



"You would get a far better understanding if you
approached us as if you were approaching one of the
great religions of the world."

NRA Vice President Warren Cassidy (Time,1/29/90, p.16)

[Mitchell Holman]

wrote in
:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
.. .
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the
NRA! What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...ico/main269814
1.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will
have to carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

What it comes down to is the RIGHT ( not 'priviledge' ) of
self defense. Our entire legal system is founded on the concept of
'protection of the rights of the innocent', even when they have the
undesired effect of protecting the rights of the guilty. Our entire
legal system is based on the concept of 'better that 10 guilty men go
free than that one innocent man goes to jail'. The same applies to
self-defense - it is not acceptable for even one person to be stripped
of their RIGHT to self-defense, regardless of whether there are
criminals in society who find in that a way to twist it to their
advantage.


So Cho was just exercising his "right to self defense"
when he walked on to campus with all those guns?

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Apr 20, 7:10 am, dave weil wrote:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

Just think how crime would drop if we could carry grenades and RPGs.

[Bert Hyman]

(dave weil) wrote in
:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties
prevented crime.

Vigilantes? Self-defense is now vigilantism?

Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and something
like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if it
really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

Handful?

"The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2
are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that
rely on Rs' firsthand accounts of their own experiences
(person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first
two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there
are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs [Defensive Gun Use] of all
types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9
million of the incidents involving use of handguns."

"ARMED RESISTANCE TO CRIME: THE PREVALENCE AND NATURE OF
SELF-DEFENSE WITH A GUN" Kleck & Gertz, Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology (Northwestern) Guns and Violence Symposium, vol. 86, no.
1, 1995: 150.

"THE ILLEGITIMACY OF ONE-SIDED SPECULATION: GETTING THE DEFENSIVE GUN
USE ESTIMATE DOWN" Kleck & Gertz, Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology (Northwestern) 87 (1997): 1446.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Apr 20, 7:42 am, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article ,

wrote:

dw:

I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year.

You'd think Britain would be depopulated by now.

Just what RAO needs, a gun thread.

They're kind of fum.

They pull the rednecks out of the woodwork.

So let's Git 'er done!

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:25:18 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

Or, in the recent case here in Tennessee, a kid gets murdered by said
homeowner who has discovered that said kid was having an affair with
his wife.

It's easy to claim events that may or may not have happened because
you *think* that it's possible. That's not much of a defense.

[George M. Middius]

dave weil said:

Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per year.

Not true. The accurate estimates run between 275 per year and
-63,000,000. The larger number is negative because that's the number of
victims who weren't attacking the gun-toter. Did you know that fully 60%
of all gun-related deaths are caused or influenced by atmospheric carbon
monoxide?

[snip]

It's easy to claim events that may or may not have happened because
you *think* that it's possible. That's not much of a defense.

The gun nuts are really Darwinists, you know. Aiming a firearm is a true
survival skill.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:19:49 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr _ george
@ comcast . net wrote:



dave weil said:

Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per year.

I actually didn't say this, but that's OK.

Not true. The accurate estimates run between 275 per year and
-63,000,000. The larger number is negative because that's the number of
victims who weren't attacking the gun-toter. Did you know that fully 60%
of all gun-related deaths are caused or influenced by atmospheric carbon
monoxide?

Well, then we have to also ask how many times that guns were used in
the commission of a crime but actually wasn't used (bank robberies,
enebling break-ins by giving a burglar confidence that he or she is
being protected) and by taking a page from the same book, all of those
"unreported" millions of times that a criminal used a gun to
intimidate someone or used in the commission of a crime. Of course,
we've got vice presidents shooting people in the face as well (OK, all
of you literalists, back off, it's just an ironic comment).

Personally, I'd also like the right to interact with the public
without the hidden presence of guns, but that's just my own personal
preference.

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:13:19 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:25:18 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

Or, in the recent case here in Tennessee, a kid gets murdered by said
homeowner who has discovered that said kid was having an affair with
his wife.

Would it make any difference if he had bashed the kid's head
in with a bat ? Or slit his throat ? Murder is murder, a crime is a
crime.


It's easy to claim events that may or may not have happened because
you *think* that it's possible. That's not much of a defense.

Nor is it much of an offense, even though the anti-gunners
like to use it in both directions.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:34:51 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:19:49 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr _ george
@ comcast . net wrote:



dave weil said:

Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per year.

I actually didn't say this, but that's OK.

Not true. The accurate estimates run between 275 per year and
-63,000,000. The larger number is negative because that's the number of
victims who weren't attacking the gun-toter. Did you know that fully 60%
of all gun-related deaths are caused or influenced by atmospheric carbon
monoxide?

Well, then we have to also ask how many times that guns were used in
the commission of a crime but actually wasn't used (bank robberies,
enebling break-ins by giving a burglar confidence that he or she is
being protected) and by taking a page from the same book, all of those
"unreported" millions of times that a criminal used a gun to
intimidate someone or used in the commission of a crime. Of course,
we've got vice presidents shooting people in the face as well (OK, all
of you literalists, back off, it's just an ironic comment).

Personally, I'd also like the right to interact with the public
without the hidden presence of guns, but that's just my own personal
preference.

Then I would suggest you stay out of Da Hood, especially at
night.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:45:08 -0400,
wrote:

Or, in the recent case here in Tennessee, a kid gets murdered by said
homeowner who has discovered that said kid was having an affair with
his wife.

Would it make any difference if he had bashed the kid's head
in with a bat ? Or slit his throat ? Murder is murder, a crime is a
crime.

Well, it's certainly a lot easier to stand a few feet away from
someone with a shotgun and pull a trigger. In fact, based on what the
husband has said, the murder probably wouldn't have happened if he had
had to take a bat to the kid or "slit his throat" because it was a
snap decision that only took a little squeeze of the trigger and now
he's agonizing over this "decision" that he made.

[Jenn]

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
. ..
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...main2698141.sh
tml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:47:55 -0400,
wrote:

Personally, I'd also like the right to interact with the public
without the hidden presence of guns, but that's just my own personal
preference.

Then I would suggest you stay out of Da Hood, especially at
night.

First of all, I *live* in "Da Hood" (or close enough to it to hear
shots occasionally and to have the guy across the street from me shot
to death in the alley behind his house over an argument over home
repairs). I suspect that you're writing this from your safe surburban
home.

Second of all, I work downtown where there is plenty of crime. I often
leave work after 11pm. Well, personally, I'm just not going to live in
fear like you apparently do, nor do I think that carrying a gun would
make me feel any safer, and yes, I've had plenty of experience with
guns of all sizes.

[Jenn]

In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote:

Jenn said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)

Opps. Still....

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:07:08 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
. ..
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...main2698141.sh
tml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

You didn't do very well in math in school, did you ?

Try it again.

Hint - there are just a WEE bit more than 3,000,000 people in
this country.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[Jenn]

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:07:08 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
. ..
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...co/main2698141
.sh
tml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have
to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

You didn't do very well in math in school, did you ?

I didn't do very well at sleeping last night, nor getting up an hour
ago. ;-)

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:12:59 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:47:55 -0400,
wrote:

Personally, I'd also like the right to interact with the public
without the hidden presence of guns, but that's just my own personal
preference.

Then I would suggest you stay out of Da Hood, especially at
night.

First of all, I *live* in "Da Hood" (or close enough to it to hear
shots occasionally and to have the guy across the street from me shot
to death in the alley behind his house over an argument over home
repairs). I suspect that you're writing this from your safe surburban
home.

Safe WELL ARMED ( the two are directly related ) suburban
home.


Second of all, I work downtown where there is plenty of crime. I often
leave work after 11pm. Well, personally, I'm just not going to live in
fear like you apparently do,

No, I live in PREPAREDNESS for some things that may occur,
although I hope they don't. I also have 25 gallons of water in jugs,
in case there's a hurricane that knocks power out for a week ( at
least I can flush the crapper ) Silly ? Not when it happened the
last time, and I was the only person in the neighborhood who was NOT
seen walking into the woods with a roll of TP :-). I also keep spare
propane, and propane heaters and camp-lamps, just in case the power
goes out for a week in the winter. Silly ? I was sure glad to hvae
them a few years ago when it happened, and it was 17 degrees outside.






nor do I think that carrying a gun would
make me feel any safer, and yes, I've had plenty of experience with
guns of all sizes.

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:16:21 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote:

Jenn said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)

Opps. Still....

'Still' my ass. 30 % vs 0.3 % - bit of a difference, don'cha
think ?


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[George M. Middius]

Gunslingin' pj said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)

Opps. Still....

'Still' my ass. 30 % vs 0.3 % - bit of a difference, don'cha
think ?

You're invoking one of the most basic math concepts to defend your
spurious logic. The likelihood that your claim of 1,000,000 gun attacks
per year thwarted by pistol-packers like you is nil. It's flat-out
impossible. It's preposterous, inconceivable, and immeasurably
ludicrous.

Now you want to parse infinity by a factor of 100 to score a "debating
trade" point. Hahahaha.

BTW, you should know that the reputation of people from central Florida
is pure mud, at least on RAO.



--

http://www.cagle.com/news/VirginiaTe...tings/main.asp

[Jenn]

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:16:21 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote:

Jenn said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)

Opps. Still....

'Still' my ass. 30 % vs 0.3 % - bit of a difference, don'cha
think ?

You talk about your ass a lot.

Anyway, yes of course it's quite a difference. And it's still not
believable, IMO.

[CB]

"Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
. ..
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the
NRA! What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...ico/main269814
1.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will
have to carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

What it comes down to is the RIGHT ( not 'priviledge' ) of
self defense. Our entire legal system is founded on the concept of
'protection of the rights of the innocent', even when they have the
undesired effect of protecting the rights of the guilty. Our entire
legal system is based on the concept of 'better that 10 guilty men go
free than that one innocent man goes to jail'. The same applies to
self-defense - it is not acceptable for even one person to be stripped
of their RIGHT to self-defense, regardless of whether there are
criminals in society who find in that a way to twist it to their
advantage.


So Cho was just exercising his "right to self defense"
when he walked on to campus with all those guns?

Man you are one dumb som-bitch

The loony-ben system failed to protect society after he was found a danger
to him self, Libs run the asylum for the most part. The skoo failed their
student body for having a loony policy of protecting loons from being
expelled or even suspended.

--
CB
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary
Americans..."
--Bill Clinton


"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
--Senator Hillary Clinton 2004
Karl Marx Manifesto of the Communist Party 1848

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:12:30 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:16:21 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote:

Jenn said:

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. snip

That would be one in three Americans. Sorry, not believable.

More like 1 in 300. (Did you skip your morning caffeine dosage?)

Opps. Still....

'Still' my ass. 30 % vs 0.3 % - bit of a difference, don'cha
think ?

You talk about your ass a lot.

I want to keep you attention, something your math teacher
failed to do :-)


Anyway, yes of course it's quite a difference. And it's still not
believable, IMO.

0.3 % seems farfetched to you ?


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:21:22 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
...
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the
NRA! What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...ico/main269814
1.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will
have to carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year. Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported. There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

What it comes down to is the RIGHT ( not 'priviledge' ) of
self defense. Our entire legal system is founded on the concept of
'protection of the rights of the innocent', even when they have the
undesired effect of protecting the rights of the guilty. Our entire
legal system is based on the concept of 'better that 10 guilty men go
free than that one innocent man goes to jail'. The same applies to
self-defense - it is not acceptable for even one person to be stripped
of their RIGHT to self-defense, regardless of whether there are
criminals in society who find in that a way to twist it to their
advantage.


So Cho was just exercising his "right to self defense"
when he walked on to campus with all those guns?

Man you are one dumb som-bitch

The loony-ben system failed to protect society after he was found a danger
to him self, Libs run the asylum for the most part. The skoo failed their
student body for having a loony policy of protecting loons from being
expelled or even suspended.

And the law made an even more ludicrous error in deciding that
'only criminals are allowed to have guns on campus'.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:35:45 -0400,
wrote:

Then I would suggest you stay out of Da Hood, especially at
night.

First of all, I *live* in "Da Hood" (or close enough to it to hear
shots occasionally and to have the guy across the street from me shot
to death in the alley behind his house over an argument over home
repairs). I suspect that you're writing this from your safe surburban
home.

Safe WELL ARMED ( the two are directly related ) suburban
home.

Figures.

[dave weil]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:21:22 -0400, "CB" wrote:

CB
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary
Americans..."
--Bill Clinton

Sounds just like GW Bush/Dick Cheney to me...

[CB]

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:21:22 -0400, "CB" wrote:

CB
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary
Americans..."
--Bill Clinton

Sounds just like GW Bush/Dick Cheney to me...

It was Bill Clinton who said it. There is no 'relative comparison' when I
posted a direct quote from Thee Impeached One.

--
CB
Clinton told (Larry) King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have
more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is
incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for
stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...otu/index.html

Let's see you 'relatively' compare that quote

[CB]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 20, 7:10 am, dave weil wrote:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

Just think how crime would drop if we could carry grenades and RPGs.


We can always count on extreme comparisons. I suppose that's why pollsters
throw out the 10% opposite extremes to get an average sample.

[George M. Middius]

CB said:

Clinton told (Larry) King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have
more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is
incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for
stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...otu/index.html

Let's see you 'relatively' compare that quote

Clinton would have been smart enough to find them.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Rich Travsky]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

On Apr 20, 7:10 am, dave weil wrote:

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

Just think how crime would drop if we could carry grenades and RPGs.

Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

When phased plasma rifles are outlawd, only terminators will have phased plasma
rifles.

[.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:48:08 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:35:45 -0400,
wrote:

Then I would suggest you stay out of Da Hood, especially at
night.

First of all, I *live* in "Da Hood" (or close enough to it to hear
shots occasionally and to have the guy across the street from me shot
to death in the alley behind his house over an argument over home
repairs). I suspect that you're writing this from your safe surburban
home.

Safe WELL ARMED ( the two are directly related ) suburban
home.

Figures.

What, I should feel some kind of 'white guilt' for not living
in Da Hood ? Or for being able to defend myself ?



--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

[Joe Duffy]

In article ,
George M. Middius do not reply wrote:


CB said:

Clinton told (Larry) King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have
more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is
incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for
stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...otu/index.html

Let's see you 'relatively' compare that quote

Clinton would have been smart enough to find them.


LOL! That is the single most inane thing ever
printed about WMDs.
Clinton certainly would've been smart enough to
find the WTC bombers in 99.
Clinton's intelligence and his understanding of
"intelligence" were mutually exclusive. Somewhat
like you, I suspect.



Joe

[Trevor Wilson]

"CB" wrote in message
...

"nebulax" wrote in message
...
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have
to carry out dirt deeds!

**How's that working for ya? Let's see:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita

There's the US at #8, with 0.0279271/1,000 people. Now, where's the next
nearest Western, developed nation?

Here it is. Down at #19, with 0.00534117/1,000 people. Can the Swiss carry
concealed guns around the streets? Nope. In fact, no other Western,
developed nation allows it's people to carry concealed guns around the
streets. Only in the US. In fact, the Swiss, like all the other Western,
devloped nations have very tough, sane and homogenous gun control laws. By
an amazing coincidence, the US also has the highest (by a very considerable
margin) homicide rate, via the use of firearms, of any Western, developed
nation.


It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

**Yadda, yadda, yadda. You suck up that **** shovelled to you by the NRA.
It's working real well for you.

NOT!


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Trevor Wilson]

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:10:43 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:36:57 -0400, "CB" wrote:


"nebulax" wrote in message
.. .
"We are captives, the majority here, of the NRA. To hell with the NRA!
What
about the society? I don't get it." - Rep. Alcee L. Hastings, D-Fla

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2698141.shtml



The more guns 'LAW ABIDING CITIZENS' have the less a dirt bags will have
to
carry out dirt deeds!

It's not the gun you ass, it's the criminal mind that puts thought into
action

Yesterday, one of the major proponents of Right To Carry laws was on
CNN once again during Virginia Tech coverage claiming that people
packing guns kept the crime rate down, if teachers were allowed to be
toting handguns things like this wouldn't happen, blah, blah, blah.
His major claim was that the crime rate dropped everywhere Right To
Carry laws were instituted. So I decided to do a quick survey and it
turns out that yes, crime rates have dropped in those states. However,
crime has dropped roughly the same rate in the two states that still
don't have any concealed carry laws at this date, Illinois and
Michigan. Crime has generally been dropping since the mid-80s whether
or not concealed carry laws have been put on the books.

He also trotted out one of those occasions where vigilanties prevented
crime. Well, with 12,000 plus gun-related murders a year, and
something like 30,000 gun deaths of all kinds a year, I'm not sure if
it really matters that a handful of lives have been saved by some
amateurs lucky enough not to have killed bystanders or themselves.

'handful' my ass. Most estimates put it at over 1,000,000 per
year.

**Bull****. Those "estimates" are nothing but wild speculation. There are
somewhat less than 200 DGUs (Defensive Gun Uses) resulting in the death of
the perp each year in the US. A handful more result in injury.

Of course, they can ONLY be SWAG's because, by the nature of
the situations, 90 % + of them go unreported.

**Then how the **** can you say that 1,000,000 DGUs occur each year? The
ONLY DGUs of interest are the ones which are reported to police. Anything
else is a delusion.

There's an attempted
mugging or rape in a dark parking garage, the CCW holder shows his/her
gun, attacker runs away, CCW holder gets in car and drives off. No
shots fired, no police report, no statistics. Or Home-owner sees
someone lurking around the bushes, peering in the windows, etc, goes
outside with his/her gun and chases them off. No shots fired, no
police report, no statistics.

**Great way to get criminals off the street. NOT!


What it comes down to is the RIGHT ( not 'priviledge' ) of
self defense.

**A gun is not necessarily the best method for acheiving that. All the other
Western, developed nations allow for self defence for their citizens.
They're just not allowed to carry guns around the streets to do it. And
amazingly enough, fewer people get shot to death in the process.

Our entire legal system is founded on the concept of
'protection of the rights of the innocent', even when they have the
undesired effect of protecting the rights of the guilty. Our entire
legal system is based on the concept of 'better that 10 guilty men go
free than that one innocent man goes to jail'.

**Better tell that to the Texas legislators.

The same applies to
self-defense - it is not acceptable for even one person to be stripped
of their RIGHT to self-defense, regardless of whether there are
criminals in society who find in that a way to twist it to their
advantage.

**Where did you get the impression that any rights of self defence should be
removed?


The way to control crime is to control criminals, not
law-abiding people. It's a lot tougher task, granted, because
law-abiding people are amenable to obeying the law ( duh ), while
criminals routinely break it.

**What makes sense is this:

Allowing nutters easy access to guns is bad public policy. Vermont does
exactly this.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[George M. Middius]

The Doofster rises up to squawk in outrage.

Let's see you 'relatively' compare that quote

Clinton would have been smart enough to find them.

LOL!

You always say that, Doof, but I doubt it ever happens. Nobody who
drinks and smokes the way you do has the spirit to laugh at anything.

That is the single most inane thing ever printed about WMDs.

I wasn't talking to you, Doof, and for precisely this reason.

Are you still searching for the perfect love ode to your beloved
Krooborg? I took a shot at updating "Duke of Earl" for you. ;-)


As Doof clomps through the Hive
Nothing slows down the Doof of 'Borg
And Kroo, he be Doof's bud
And Kroo be all snot, oh bro'
Doofy gonna love Kroo
Krooger, Doofy wants you bad bad bad
'Cause he's the Doof of 'Borg


Try it out. It's only a first draft.




--

See the history of Joe Doofy's family he
http://www.geocities.com/glanbrok/RA...ry/Lineage.htm