[David Grant]

Just wanted to share an experience I had using these microphones on a jazz
trio in a medium sized recital hall in ORTF configuration.

There's a serious lack of bottom end. To my ear the balance was good at the
location where I put the mics, but the acoustic bass was nearly inaudible on
the first take. After each take I asked the bass player to turn up his amp,
until finally he refused because it was drowning out the other players from
where he stood. Re-listening at the mic location there's no way it should
have been light in the low end.

Cymbals came out beautifully, as did the upper end of the piano and the bass
slaps, but the lows and low-mids were just disappointing all around. EQ
helps but doesn't cut it.

I have to wonder if I have a bad pair.

(recorded into an RNP -- RME hammerfall)

Dave.




--
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[Gidney and Cloyd]

David Grant wrote:

... There's a serious lack of bottom end...

Being cardiods they roll off 6db/octave below 120 Hz
according to the spec sheet, which lists the freq response
at 60 cm. I imagine your pair was farther away than that.

For flat bass response, use omnis.

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:41:32 -0500, David Grant wrote
(in article ):

Just wanted to share an experience I had using these microphones on a jazz
trio in a medium sized recital hall in ORTF configuration.

There's a serious lack of bottom end. To my ear the balance was good at the
location where I put the mics, but the acoustic bass was nearly inaudible on
the first take. After each take I asked the bass player to turn up his amp,
until finally he refused because it was drowning out the other players from
where he stood. Re-listening at the mic location there's no way it should
have been light in the low end.

Cymbals came out beautifully, as did the upper end of the piano and the bass
slaps, but the lows and low-mids were just disappointing all around. EQ
helps but doesn't cut it.

I have to wonder if I have a bad pair.

(recorded into an RNP -- RME hammerfall)

Dave.

Where did you place the mic in relation to the acoustic bass? What was behind
it, what was past it?

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Scott Dorsey]

David Grant wrote:
Just wanted to share an experience I had using these microphones on a jazz
trio in a medium sized recital hall in ORTF configuration.

There's a serious lack of bottom end. To my ear the balance was good at the
location where I put the mics, but the acoustic bass was nearly inaudible on
the first take. After each take I asked the bass player to turn up his amp,
until finally he refused because it was drowning out the other players from
where he stood. Re-listening at the mic location there's no way it should
have been light in the low end.

What sort of monitoring were you using?

If you throw the recording up on a phase scope, does it look right?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David Grant]

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:41:32 -0500, David Grant wrote
(in article ):

Just wanted to share an experience I had using these microphones on a
jazz
trio in a medium sized recital hall in ORTF configuration.

There's a serious lack of bottom end. To my ear the balance was good at
the
location where I put the mics, but the acoustic bass was nearly inaudible
on
the first take. After each take I asked the bass player to turn up his
amp,
until finally he refused because it was drowning out the other players
from
where he stood. Re-listening at the mic location there's no way it should
have been light in the low end.

Cymbals came out beautifully, as did the upper end of the piano and the
bass
slaps, but the lows and low-mids were just disappointing all around. EQ
helps but doesn't cut it.

I have to wonder if I have a bad pair.

(recorded into an RNP -- RME hammerfall)

Dave.

Where did you place the mic in relation to the acoustic bass? What was
behind
it, what was past it?

Ty Ford



Bass player was dead centre in front of stereo pair, about 3.5ft away. Bass
amp was off to the right at waist height, slightly behind the bass player,
but still in clear view of the stereo pair.

What was behind the bass? nothing until the back wall of the recital hall
which was an absorbtive 2" fibreglass surface (the only absorbtion in the
whole hall). Past the bass? Microphones had line-of-sight to the bass and
the bass amp, so nothing I guess.

For a small ensemble in a recital hall that's very reverberant (not in a
good way), how does one reject room ambience without using a directional mic
(so as to avoid the bass roll-off inherent in cardioids). I don't think i
could have gotten any closer to the ensemble with the pair, as I had them -
the mics and instruments - packed in as close as was reasonably possible.

I've never used omnis, but I can't imagine they'd work well in this room
since I found only *one* spot where the ensemble didn't sound like complete
mud. The group was amazed the recording turned out as clear as it did... the
room is dubbed the "ego crusher" as it makes ensemble performers feel very
amateur (it's not bad for solo performance however)

Is a common technique to use a cardioid pair as I did, but to close-mic the
bass in addition, to fill in the low end?

Thanks,

David



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[Scott Fraser]

Is a common technique to use a cardioid pair as I did, but to close-
mic the
bass in addition, to fill in the low end?

The low end shouldn't need filling in, so something's wrong with this
picture. Cardioids at a distance are used all the time with no serious
loss of low end. It's not a generic cardioid problem. Without seeing
the setup or hearing the session, I'd say the distance between the
bass & the bass amp was giving you a lot of comb filtering. I would
have leaned toward having the bass player turn down his amp or work
entirely acoustically. This is an upright bass, right, not an
electric?

Scott Fraser

[David Grant]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:
Just wanted to share an experience I had using these microphones on a jazz
trio in a medium sized recital hall in ORTF configuration.

There's a serious lack of bottom end. To my ear the balance was good at
the
location where I put the mics, but the acoustic bass was nearly inaudible
on
the first take. After each take I asked the bass player to turn up his
amp,
until finally he refused because it was drowning out the other players
from
where he stood. Re-listening at the mic location there's no way it should
have been light in the low end.

What sort of monitoring were you using?

Regrettably, AKG K271 headphones. However, they did accurately report a lack
of bass.

If you throw the recording up on a phase scope, does it look right?

I'll have to teach myself how to use a phase scope first. Then I'll get back
to you.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[David Grant]

The low end shouldn't need filling in, so something's wrong with this
picture. Cardioids at a distance are used all the time with no serious
loss of low end. It's not a generic cardioid problem. Without seeing
the setup or hearing the session, I'd say the distance between the
bass & the bass amp was giving you a lot of comb filtering. I would
have leaned toward having the bass player turn down his amp or work
entirely acoustically. This is an upright bass, right, not an
electric?

But wouldn't such drastic comb filtering have been evident when I listened
from the mic position? Yes, it's an upright bass. I imagine having him play
entirely acoustically would need him to come right up to the mics, and then
I'm not sure how line of sight between the piano/drummer would work. I guess
it's something to try next time.

I used these same Josephsons to measure the frequency response of my new
Tannoy Precision 8D's using their ActiveAssist software today and found it
odd when the results showed almost no bottom end (-5dB @ 200Hz, -15dB @
100Hz, -35dB at 50Hz!!) which to my ears is waaay off. Something seems fishy
in my setup here....





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Steve King]

"David Grant" wrote in message
.. .

The low end shouldn't need filling in, so something's wrong with this
picture. Cardioids at a distance are used all the time with no serious
loss of low end. It's not a generic cardioid problem. Without seeing
the setup or hearing the session, I'd say the distance between the
bass & the bass amp was giving you a lot of comb filtering. I would
have leaned toward having the bass player turn down his amp or work
entirely acoustically. This is an upright bass, right, not an
electric?

But wouldn't such drastic comb filtering have been evident when I listened
from the mic position? Yes, it's an upright bass. I imagine having him
play entirely acoustically would need him to come right up to the mics,
and then I'm not sure how line of sight between the piano/drummer would
work. I guess it's something to try next time.

I used these same Josephsons to measure the frequency response of my new
Tannoy Precision 8D's using their ActiveAssist software today and found it
odd when the results showed almost no bottom end (-5dB @ 200Hz, -15dB @
100Hz, -35dB at 50Hz!!) which to my ears is waaay off. Something seems
fishy in my setup here....

Left field thought. Could you have an out of phase mic cable? Surely not,
but...

Steve King

[Scott Dorsey]

David Grant wrote:


If you throw the recording up on a phase scope, does it look right?

I'll have to teach myself how to use a phase scope first. Then I'll get back
to you.

Get a commercial recording made with the same sort of mike technique, play
it into the phase scope, then do it with your recording. Compare them.

If you are using coincident cardioids, you should see a blobby ellipse
thing centered around a diagonal line going from lower left to upper
right. If it's reversed, you have one channel out of phase. If it's a
straight line instead of a wiggling ellipse, it's a mono signal. The
more stereo content, the wider the ellipse.

If one channel has bad polarity, for example, your low end will go to hell
and the stereo image will be all wrong.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

David Grant wrote:

The low end shouldn't need filling in, so something's wrong with this
picture. Cardioids at a distance are used all the time with no serious
loss of low end. It's not a generic cardioid problem. Without seeing
the setup or hearing the session, I'd say the distance between the
bass & the bass amp was giving you a lot of comb filtering. I would
have leaned toward having the bass player turn down his amp or work
entirely acoustically. This is an upright bass, right, not an
electric?

But wouldn't such drastic comb filtering have been evident when I listened
from the mic position? Yes, it's an upright bass. I imagine having him play
entirely acoustically would need him to come right up to the mics, and then
I'm not sure how line of sight between the piano/drummer would work. I guess
it's something to try next time.

It might be. Stick a finger in one ear and see.

I used these same Josephsons to measure the frequency response of my new
Tannoy Precision 8D's using their ActiveAssist software today and found it
odd when the results showed almost no bottom end (-5dB @ 200Hz, -15dB @
100Hz, -35dB at 50Hz!!) which to my ears is waaay off. Something seems fishy
in my setup here....

Maybe it's the preamp, maybe it's the cabling. Do you get the same result
with a single microphone? If you plug headphones right into the output of
the RNP, do you hear good low end?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Feb 26, 11:34 am, "David Grant" wrote:

I used these same Josephsons to measure the frequency response of my new
Tannoy Precision 8D's using their ActiveAssist software today and found it
odd when the results showed almost no bottom end (-5dB @ 200Hz, -15dB @
100Hz, -35dB at 50Hz!!) which to my ears is waaay off. Something seems fishy
in my setup here....


Do you have a high pass filter engaged somewhere in your path? The
C-42 shouldn't be more than -2 dB from nominal at 40 Hz. Can you get
ahold of a cheap omni such as a Behringer ECM-8000 and repeat the
experiment described? If so, do you get the same results?

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

[[email protected]]

the previous replies notwithstanding, this is really not that uncommon
for many SD condensers these days. several years ago, i started out
trying to so this kind of work with a pair of neumann km184s. they
were thin as hell as an ORTF main pair at any kind of distance. they
didnt do too badly as close mics in studio applications like piano and
acoustic guitar, but they were quite unserviceable in ORTF at 5-6 feet
from a small acoustic ensemble playing live. other similar lics, like
the AT 4051s and 4041s, gefell m300s, rode nt5s, akg c391s, etc, all
yeilded simlar results. too thin, no bottom. (though, of those
mentioned, the at4051s were the best both in live situations and in
the studio.)

it wasnt until i started really spending some money on mics that i
began finding good results in ORTF setups - schoeps cmc64s were an
excellent ORTF pair, though i found them boomy when used as close mics
in the studio. DPA 4011s were generally perfect both as ORTF main
pair and in cloe mic studio applications. AKG C480/ck61s were very
similar to the DPAs - excellent both in live setups and in the
studio. i have sold my schoeps, but still love the DPAs and the
AKGs. i use them on everything. had a pair of DPA 4006s also for a
while (omni), but in the long run preferred the cardioid 4011s, which
i kept.

some cardioid SD mics are designed for mid-distance work, while others
are tweaked for close applications, though you dont see this
referenced except in the specs for very nice (ie expensive) mics such
as DPA and schoeps. at any rate, perhaps you might consider a nice
used pair of AKG C481s to replace your c42s. you can often find a
good pair for around $900-1000 - the taper crowd uses them
extensively, and they are probably the most popular mic for tapers
(take a look at the tapersection website to see some of their reviews
and user experiences, and take a look at their "yard sale" page to
find a used pair.) the c481s are probably my all time favorite mics
for acoustic instruments.

[David Grant]

wrote in message
s.com...
the previous replies notwithstanding, this is really not that uncommon
for many SD condensers these days. [snip]

some cardioid SD mics are designed for mid-distance work, while others
are tweaked for close applications, though you dont see this
referenced except in the specs for very nice (ie expensive) mics such
as DPA and schoeps.

The Studio Projects C-4's were designed by a Schoeps owner, and my
experience is that they have full, ample bass at medium distance.
Supporting your comments, guitarists who try to use them for close miking
of guitars seem to report problems with excessive bass.

I have been recording jazz in Greenwich Village with C-4's as the main
ORTF pair. Those who have heard the disks report great satisfaction with
the tonal balance of these mikes, as well as the portrayal of room
background ambience.

Bob Morein
Dresher, PA
(215) 646-4894


Thanks guys... I do have a close-mic'd solo piano recording I did a year ago
with this same gear, and the balance is great. Still trying to figure out if
something in my setup has somehow changed since then or if it's just a mic
characteristic.

Dave

David



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Scott Dorsey]

David Grant wrote:

Thanks guys... I do have a close-mic'd solo piano recording I did a year ago
with this same gear, and the balance is great. Still trying to figure out if
something in my setup has somehow changed since then or if it's just a mic
characteristic.

I don't think the mike should be THAT far down.

I am thinking cabling issues would be a big suspect. Did you try the
headphone-out-of-the-RNP?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:25:32 -0500, wrote
(in article m):

the previous replies notwithstanding, this is really not that uncommon
for many SD condensers these days. several years ago, i started out
trying to so this kind of work with a pair of neumann km184s. they
were thin as hell as an ORTF main pair at any kind of distance. they
didnt do too badly as close mics in studio applications like piano and
acoustic guitar, but they were quite unserviceable in ORTF at 5-6 feet
from a small acoustic ensemble playing live. other similar lics, like
the AT 4051s and 4041s, gefell m300s, rode nt5s, akg c391s, etc, all
yeilded simlar results. too thin, no bottom. (though, of those
mentioned, the at4051s were the best both in live situations and in
the studio.)

I don't wonder. It would have been interesting to hear what a pair of cmc641
would have sounded like.


it wasnt until i started really spending some money on mics that i
began finding good results in ORTF setups - schoeps cmc64s were an
excellent ORTF pair, though i found them boomy when used as close mics
in the studio. DPA 4011s were generally perfect both as ORTF main
pair and in cloe mic studio applications. AKG C480/ck61s were very
similar to the DPAs - excellent both in live setups and in the
studio. i have sold my schoeps, but still love the DPAs and the
AKGs. i use them on everything. had a pair of DPA 4006s also for a
while (omni), but in the long run preferred the cardioid 4011s, which
i kept.

I don't remember the difference between the 64 and 641 except the 64 were a
little too wide in my studio. That's why I went with the 641. I used them in
compromised ORTF a few weeks ago to grab stereo audio at a jazz band concert
and they worked quite well in that theater.

some cardioid SD mics are designed for mid-distance work, while others
are tweaked for close applications, though you dont see this
referenced except in the specs for very nice (ie expensive) mics such
as DPA and schoeps. at any rate, perhaps you might consider a nice
used pair of AKG C481s to replace your c42s. you can often find a
good pair for around $900-1000 - the taper crowd uses them
extensively, and they are probably the most popular mic for tapers
(take a look at the tapersection website to see some of their reviews
and user experiences, and take a look at their "yard sale" page to
find a used pair.) the c481s are probably my all time favorite mics
for acoustic instruments.


And if you do have a lot of low end response in many venues, it picks up too
much room 'Hunh" anyway.

Regards,

Ty

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[David Grant]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:

Thanks guys... I do have a close-mic'd solo piano recording I did a year
ago
with this same gear, and the balance is great. Still trying to figure out
if
something in my setup has somehow changed since then or if it's just a mic
characteristic.

I don't think the mike should be THAT far down.

It's a tricky situation... I've decided the aforementioned Tannoys aren't
performing properly in the bottom end, to my ear, for some reason (I think
the tweeter trim pots were set improperly at the factory)... needless to say
they aren't the ideal monitor I should be using to get an idea of the C-42's
response. The -35dB @ 50Hz is likely the sum of two or more issues. I've got
a lot of testing to do, including dragging equipment outside to eliminate
room boundaries from the equation. I could really use some calibrated
measuring equipment and an anechoic chamber right about now.

I am thinking cabling issues would be a big suspect. Did you try the
headphone-out-of-the-RNP?

Still haven't had time, but it's on my to-do list. Thanks for the
suggestion.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:29:52 -0500, Soundhaspriority wrote
(in article ):


wrote in message
s.com...
the previous replies notwithstanding, this is really not that uncommon
for many SD condensers these days. [snip]

some cardioid SD mics are designed for mid-distance work, while others
are tweaked for close applications, though you dont see this
referenced except in the specs for very nice (ie expensive) mics such
as DPA and schoeps.

The Studio Projects C-4's were designed by a Schoeps owner, and my
experience is that they have full, ample bass at medium distance. Supporting
your comments, guitarists who try to use them for close miking of guitars
seem to report problems with excessive bass.

I have been recording jazz in Greenwich Village with C-4's as the main ORTF
pair. Those who have heard the disks report great satisfaction with the
tonal balance of these mikes, as well as the portrayal of room background
ambience.

Bob Morein
Dresher, PA
(215) 646-4894


Bob,

With all due respect there's a big difference between being a mic owner and
being a designer and or manufacturer. Even the chinese haven't figured out
how to steal the Schoeps sound, yet.

Regards,

Ty

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU