[Jenn]

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Agreed.

[Harry Lavo]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Lots to think about here. Thanks, Jenn.

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often promulgated here that
there is poor long term auditory memory. Could such science have been
based on something other than music? My guess is it was.

For another, it suggests that musical snippets, devoid of a recognized
musical context, are one thing. Snippets that can evoke context are
another. Remember my car crash analogy?

For yet another, it confirms that musical ability/reaction are primitive and
emotional in nature, and accordingly there is a substantial difference
between the effects of "sound" and those of "music". One apparently cannot
measure the effects of music without measuring the emotions. Among other
things, this tends to support Oohashi's research work.

The findings on timbre are interesting...they support audiophile
preoccupation with same, yet coming from a very different point of origin
from a research standpoint.

And finally, the part on tension involving the anticipation of beat, tempo,
etc. is fascinating. It tends to suggest their may be something to
perceptions of "fast" versus "slow" bass, for instance. It also supports a
thesis I have held for about fifteen years that much of the appeal of jazz
is the tension between the straightforward expectations of tempo and melody,
and the variations jazzman improvise around them. One expects one thing,
then takes delight in being surprised by a variation that is different and
yet clearly related. (BTW, I did some improvised research on this that
developed some experimental support way back in 1990. But that is a story
for another time.)

Again, thanks Jenn.

Harry

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Lots to think about here. Thanks, Jenn.

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often promulgated here that
there is poor long term auditory memory. Could such science have been
based on something other than music? My guess is it was.

For another, it suggests that musical snippets, devoid of a recognized
musical context, are one thing. Snippets that can evoke context are
another. Remember my car crash analogy?

For yet another, it confirms that musical ability/reaction are primitive and
emotional in nature, and accordingly there is a substantial difference
between the effects of "sound" and those of "music". One apparently cannot
measure the effects of music without measuring the emotions. Among other
things, this tends to support Oohashi's research work.

The findings on timbre are interesting...they support audiophile
preoccupation with same, yet coming from a very different point of origin
from a research standpoint.

And finally, the part on tension involving the anticipation of beat, tempo,
etc. is fascinating. It tends to suggest their may be something to
perceptions of "fast" versus "slow" bass, for instance. It also supports a
thesis I have held for about fifteen years that much of the appeal of jazz
is the tension between the straightforward expectations of tempo and melody,
and the variations jazzman improvise around them. One expects one thing,
then takes delight in being surprised by a variation that is different and
yet clearly related. (BTW, I did some improvised research on this that
developed some experimental support way back in 1990. But that is a story
for another time.)

Again, thanks Jenn.

Harry

It is interesting. As I've mentioned, I'm involved in some research
through the University of California Press concerning how we hear and
perceive music. The team can't discuss it in public yet, but when we
get the OK, I'll do a summary here. Fun stuff!

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:44:30 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often promulgated here that
there is poor long term auditory memory. Could such science have been
based on something other than music? My guess is it was.

I do not see that this is the case, at least as revealed by the
article which is a popular one and not a scientific one. One needs to
distinguish between a precise memory independant of new stimuli and
one that is attached to a stimulus by perceptual mechanisms. The
latter is an imprecise matching that we use for quick identification
but it is not subtle. In other words, long-term auditory memory is a
gross term covering lots of different tasks.

I have ordered the book and hope to get to it and the underlying
papers soon. Drawing conclusions from the popular literature is
always dangerous.

Kal

[Jenn]

In article ,
Kalman Rubinson wrote:

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:44:30 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often promulgated here that
there is poor long term auditory memory. Could such science have been
based on something other than music? My guess is it was.

I do not see that this is the case, at least as revealed by the
article which is a popular one and not a scientific one. One needs to
distinguish between a precise memory independant of new stimuli and
one that is attached to a stimulus by perceptual mechanisms. The
latter is an imprecise matching that we use for quick identification
but it is not subtle. In other words, long-term auditory memory is a
gross term covering lots of different tasks.

I have ordered the book and hope to get to it and the underlying
papers soon. Drawing conclusions from the popular literature is
always dangerous.

Kal

Of course it is. But for this venue on this topic, it at least could
stimulate some discussion, and motivate further investigation for those
who are interested.

[Harry Lavo]

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:44:30 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often promulgated here that
there is poor long term auditory memory. Could such science have been
based on something other than music? My guess is it was.

I do not see that this is the case, at least as revealed by the
article which is a popular one and not a scientific one. One needs to
distinguish between a precise memory independant of new stimuli and
one that is attached to a stimulus by perceptual mechanisms. The
latter is an imprecise matching that we use for quick identification
but it is not subtle. In other words, long-term auditory memory is a
gross term covering lots of different tasks.

I have ordered the book and hope to get to it and the underlying
papers soon. Drawing conclusions from the popular literature is
always dangerous.

Kal


That's why I prefaced my remarks as "it seems...".

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Jenn" wrote in
message
...
An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Lots to think about here. Thanks, Jenn.

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often
promulgated here that there is poor long term auditory
memory.

This is only because yiou can't state the issue properly, Harry.

The proper statement of the issue is that there is poor long term memory for
certain subtle details.

Apparently Harry, you lack the experience or mental powers required to
compare and contrast the difference in sound quality related to the same
musician playing the same music on two different musical instruments
(relatively large), and the difference in sound quality related to the same
musician playing the same music on two different good amplifiers or two
different digital formats, given that the lesser format is 16/44 or above
(relatively subtle).

But thanks Harry for again providing more powerful evidence that we can use
to establish your lack of experience and ability to do critical thinking.

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Is it the dopamine that gives me that tingle down my spine ?

Graham

[MiNe 109]

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely. An oddity of
classical piano training is the contradictory pair of expectations that
the student in learning approach the musical text as a blank slate while
in performing conform to the tradition of how the piece goes.

Stephen

[George M. Middius]

Snottyborg's New Year resolution is apparent.

This is only because yiou can't state the issue properly, Harry.

Apparently Harry, you lack the experience or mental powers

But thanks Harry for again providing more powerful evidence that we can use
to establish your lack of experience and ability to do critical thinking.

So far this year, you've snotted on Harry and Jenn. You better hurry if
you're going to snot on the rest of the RAO regulars before the end of the
day. You wouldn't want to break your resolution so quickly, Arnii.






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Jenn]

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely.

Yes it is. I think that part of that has to do with when in life (often
early) we hear the music repeatedly and part has to do with "strange"
voicings of chords. For me, examples of the former include Moody Blues:
Go Now, and a bunch of Beatles tunes. Examples of the later for me
include several Elton John and James Taylor songs.

An oddity of
classical piano training is the contradictory pair of expectations that
the student in learning approach the musical text as a blank slate while
in performing conform to the tradition of how the piece goes.

Stephen

Indeed.

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Is it the dopamine that gives me that tingle down my spine ?

Graham

Partially. Also increased heart and respiratory rates, memories of past
events, and so forth. Good composers and performers know how to "push
our buttons": a chord voicing here, a little stretch there....

[John Atkinson]

MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,
Jenn wrote:
An interesting little piece
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

It's strange that, for example, hearing just the first note of the
Beethoven Violin Concerto allows the listener to identify it
exactly; that although there are millions of compositions,
there are no others that start with _exactly_ that sound.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely. An
oddity of classical piano training is the contradictory pair of
expectations that the student in learning approach the musical
text as a blank slate while in performing conform to the tradition
of how the piece goes.

Something to muse about on the long flight to Las Vegas
for the CES, along with the fact that efficient telephone
communication relies on totally on the effectiveness of
people's auditory memories to replace the missing
audio information.

Happy New Year Stephen and Jenn. May it be filled
with music.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Jenn]

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,
Jenn wrote:
An interesting little piece
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

It's strange that, for example, hearing just the first note of the
Beethoven Violin Concerto allows the listener to identify it
exactly; that although there are millions of compositions,
there are no others that start with _exactly_ that sound.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely. An
oddity of classical piano training is the contradictory pair of
expectations that the student in learning approach the musical
text as a blank slate while in performing conform to the tradition
of how the piece goes.

Something to muse about on the long flight to Las Vegas
for the CES,

Have fun! I was considering going this year (I've never gone) but I'm
going to NAMM in a couple of weeks (meeting up with the wonderful
Laurence Juber, among other fun things), and I want to save my $$ for
that, the Julliard Bookstore in April, and a sweet little Martin maple
back is calling my name ;-)

along with the fact that efficient telephone
communication relies on totally on the effectiveness of
people's auditory memories to replace the missing
audio information.

Happy New Year Stephen and Jenn. May it be filled
with music.

Back at you, John.

[MiNe 109]

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely.

Yes it is. I think that part of that has to do with when in life (often
early) we hear the music repeatedly and part has to do with "strange"
voicings of chords. For me, examples of the former include Moody Blues:
Go Now, and a bunch of Beatles tunes. Examples of the later for me
include several Elton John and James Taylor songs.

(Now I have "Daniel" playing in my head) "Go Now"? That one's been
hammered twice with the distortion generator!

An oddity of
classical piano training is the contradictory pair of expectations that
the student in learning approach the musical text as a blank slate while
in performing conform to the tradition of how the piece goes.

Indeed.

Sight-reading for music theater types can be interesting because they
*know* how a song goes while I'm at a relative loss interpreting the
sheet-music and making all those adjustments and assessments one does in
performing in a real space.

Stephen

[MiNe 109]

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,
Jenn wrote:
An interesting little piece
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

It's strange that, for example, hearing just the first note of the
Beethoven Violin Concerto allows the listener to identify it
exactly; that although there are millions of compositions,
there are no others that start with _exactly_ that sound.

"Thum"? The first note of the Hammerklavier sonata is another Beethoven
example, although there's a greater chance that that sound has been used
in another piece.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely. An
oddity of classical piano training is the contradictory pair of
expectations that the student in learning approach the musical
text as a blank slate while in performing conform to the tradition
of how the piece goes.

Something to muse about on the long flight to Las Vegas
for the CES, along with the fact that efficient telephone
communication relies on totally on the effectiveness of
people's auditory memories to replace the missing
audio information.

Happy New Year Stephen and Jenn. May it be filled
with music.

Likewise. Thanks for the choral recordings!

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely.

Yes it is. I think that part of that has to do with when in life (often
early) we hear the music repeatedly and part has to do with "strange"
voicings of chords. For me, examples of the former include Moody Blues:
Go Now, and a bunch of Beatles tunes. Examples of the later for me
include several Elton John and James Taylor songs.

(Now I have "Daniel" playing in my head) "Go Now"? That one's been
hammered twice with the distortion generator!

An oddity of
classical piano training is the contradictory pair of expectations that
the student in learning approach the musical text as a blank slate while
in performing conform to the tradition of how the piece goes.

Indeed.

Sight-reading for music theater types can be interesting because they
*know* how a song goes while I'm at a relative loss interpreting the
sheet-music and making all those adjustments and assessments one does in
performing in a real space.

Stephen

So true, but also true for all genres, don't you think? "Performance
practice" is evident everywhere.

[MiNe 109]

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

My undergrad piano teacher used to play one-note "name that tune" with
his faculty friends.

Interesting that pop songs can be recalled so precisely.

Yes it is. I think that part of that has to do with when in life (often
early) we hear the music repeatedly and part has to do with "strange"
voicings of chords. For me, examples of the former include Moody Blues:
Go Now, and a bunch of Beatles tunes. Examples of the later for me
include several Elton John and James Taylor songs.

(Now I have "Daniel" playing in my head) "Go Now"? That one's been
hammered twice with the distortion generator!

An oddity of
classical piano training is the contradictory pair of expectations that
the student in learning approach the musical text as a blank slate
while
in performing conform to the tradition of how the piece goes.

Indeed.

Sight-reading for music theater types can be interesting because they
*know* how a song goes while I'm at a relative loss interpreting the
sheet-music and making all those adjustments and assessments one does in
performing in a real space.

So true, but also true for all genres, don't you think? "Performance
practice" is evident everywhere.

Can't perform without it! The distinction for me is that I often
accompany young musicians, some my students, so I'm the one who knows
how the song "goes"! At sight vs. rehearsed is another difference.

Stephen

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Jenn" wrote in
message
...
An interesting little piece

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/ar...ic/31thom.html

Lots to think about here. Thanks, Jenn.

For one thing...it seems to challenge the idea often
promulgated here that there is poor long term auditory
memory.

This is only because yiou can't state the issue properly, Harry.

The proper statement of the issue is that there is poor long term memory for
certain subtle details.

Apparently Harry, you lack the experience or mental powers required to
compare and contrast the difference in sound quality related to the same
musician playing the same music on two different musical instruments
(relatively large), and the difference in sound quality related to the same
musician playing the same music on two different good amplifiers or two
different digital formats, given that the lesser format is 16/44 or above
(relatively subtle).



==================================

Krueger's discussion style:
' Apparently Harry, you lack the experience or mental powers required
.....
But thanks Harry for again providing more powerful evidence that we can use
to establish your lack of experience and ability to do critical thinking.

I hate imitating your atrocious manners but it seems nothing else will
penetrate
your thick skull..

Harry is n-times more open minded than you. He doesn't have
your idiotic little axes to grind. He loves music and tries to get the
best
reproduction of it he can..

Ditto for Jenn. She knows better what music is about than you will ever

grasp.

Reproduction of music is not about "accuracy" to the bunch of sound
engineers with your kind of feel for what music is all about or to the
foreman
at the pressing plant

It is about trying to be faithful to the composer and the performer.

I can just see you in a little chair in a little office, in not so
ditant time or country
seeing that the writers and composers do not depart from the "party
line".
You fit in to a T.

You have something to contribute on the technical side. Why don't you
stick to
that and leave art to those who understand it?
Ludovic Mirabel