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#1
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and
have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? |
#2
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and
have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? I did a Google search: http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...ire/Page1.html http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Web/Pages/faqbiamp.html http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ages/4953.html Best JP |
#3
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
No facts; only opinions. I have bi-wired speakers and what I heard was a
bit less harshness in mids and highs.Mids and highs seemed less forward . In my experience not a huge difference, but an improvement worth trying if speaker cable expense is not a problem. Suggestion: Ask Totem why they put the biwire terminals on the speakers. Wylie Williams "mfr" wrote in message news:f4KVa.16523$Ho3.3718@sccrnsc03... I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? |
#4
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:02:35 GMT, mfr
wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? There are opinions about this all over the place (including here) which you can find with a Google search. Kal |
#5
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:50:15 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote: [...]Suggestion: Ask Totem why they put the biwire terminals on the speakers. I believe it was Ken Kantor (then of NHT) who said he put biwire terminals on his speakers NOT because he believed it was superior, but because the market demanded it. My point? Simply that what manufacturers do may not always imply what we think it does. Mike Prager North Carolina, USA |
#6
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
The only benefit in most systems is to bypass the supplied brass
jumpers with the same wire used to wire the other set of drivers and to avoid another mechanical connection created by the additional set of terminals. It has a use for which it was intended and that is to allow the use of separate amplifiers to drive the high and low frequency sections. There are a lot of combinations that can be used to achieve various results that way. A real cheap way to "bi-wire" is to replace the jumpers with a few inch section of the main speaker cables. - Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 "mfr" wrote in message news:f4KVa.16523$Ho3.3718@sccrnsc03... I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? |
#7
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
The term Bi-Amp has more practical meaning.
- Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 "Nousaine" wrote in message news:JERVa.20712$YN5.19494@sccrnsc01... wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? The term "bi-wire" defines a merchandising technique to give the customer an opportunity to buy more wire. |
#8
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Excellent answer. If the same amp is wired to both drivers why or how could
it sound different? Is more wire better? The physics just doesn't make sense. It must have something to do with this newfangled dark matter or dark energy which I can't seem to understand. "Nousaine" wrote in message news:JERVa.20712$YN5.19494@sccrnsc01... wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? The term "bi-wire" defines a merchandising technique to give the customer an opportunity to buy more wire. |
#9
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
"Sam Stark" wrote in
news:WU%Va.24338$o%2.13914@sccrnsc02: Excellent answer. If the same amp is wired to both drivers why or how could it sound different? Is more wire better? The physics just doesn't make sense. It must have something to do with this newfangled dark matter or dark energy which I can't seem to understand. Is that like the "Dark Sucker" theory? (:) r "Nousaine" wrote in message news:JERVa.20712$YN5.19494@sccrnsc01... wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? The term "bi-wire" defines a merchandising technique to give the customer an opportunity to buy more wire. -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ), "Technology and the Future" |
#10
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 03:03:39 GMT, Mike Prager
wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:50:15 GMT, "Wylie Williams" wrote: [...]Suggestion: Ask Totem why they put the biwire terminals on the speakers. I believe it was Ken Kantor (then of NHT) who said he put biwire terminals on his speakers NOT because he believed it was superior, but because the market demanded it. My point? Simply that what manufacturers do may not always imply what we think it does. The same is true of Billy Woodman of ATC. He is quite vocal on the 'bi-wiring is bunk' issue, but the puts the terminals on his speakers anyway. Other top brands such as Thiel, Dynaudio, and Wilson simply refuse to comply with such nonsensical whimsies, and have single input terminals. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#11
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 03:14:30 GMT, "Uptown Audio"
wrote: The term Bi-Amp has more practical meaning. Without an active crossover, it is still a meaningless exercise. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#12
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Mike,
As you see there are opinions on both sides. Some noted speaker makers do it even though they don't believe in it. No one has mentioned the opinions of speakers makers who do believe it helps, but surely some exist. In the links here also technical arguments that disagree. It still remains to be discovered that bi-wiring will be an improvement in your enjoyment of your speakers. Or whether the change will make a difference, either better worse, in your system. So why not try it. Listen and decide whether the cahnge ( if any) is an improvement. It doesn't have to cost much to play - try cheap wire just for the experiment. Or borrow from a local audio store. I am assuming that this is a hobby with you so a little time playing with the system connected with different wires a in differents ways can be a pleasant diversion. No matter what the result it will be accepted by some and not by others, so do whatever gives you more enjoyment of your music. Maybe later you will change your mind. So? There are plenty of audiophiles out there who abandoned tubes and horns for transistors and acoustic suspension, then came back. Were they wrong either time? Was it a waste of time and money? I don't think so. Not if they were enjoyably engaged with their audio hobby at the time. Wylie Williams |
#13
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
If your going to biwire, leave the jumpers between the binding posts in.
With two parallel wires, you cut the wire resistance and inductance in half. The capacitance is doubled but this doesn't matter. The extremely low output impedance of amplifiers and low input impedance of speakers makes speaker cable capacitance unimportant. Low resistance and inductance are what's important. Stick with 12 AWG ZIP. Biwiring advantages defy all laws of electromagnetic physics. As stated, it's a brilliant way to sell double the speaker wire. "mfr" wrote in message news:f4KVa.16523$Ho3.3718@sccrnsc03... I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? |
#14
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
What's annoying is the quality of the jumpers they put on speakers made for
bi-wiring. MY B&W's have this and I made my own jumpers. I would have preferred just one set of terminals, but some people like to bi-amp,I know. P h i l i p ______________________________ "I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa" - Dorothy Parker |
#15
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:02:35 GMT, mfr
wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? For the fun of it do it in a double blind study. Have a friend hook up the speakers and leave the room before you come back in and you write your inpressions in a book you keep then leave the room before he comes back in and repeat for about ten times and see if your result is strongly leaning in either way. In contrast listening tests do indicate that bi or tri amping (assuming done properly and with active xovers) does result in most people hearing a significant and repeatable difference. In the end it comes down to what you feel you hear and enjoy. Louis |
#16
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
"james mitchell" wrote in message
news:LIlWa.36276$Ho3.6349@sccrnsc03 If your going to biwire, leave the jumpers between the binding posts in. With two parallel wires, you cut the wire resistance and inductance in half. Brilliant! BTW, this suggestion may help some understand the futility of bi-wiring. When you remove the jumper you eliminate the paralleled connection and all its benefits. Each half of the speaker sees just one cable going back to the amplifier. The capacitance is doubled but this doesn't matter. The extremely low output impedance of amplifiers and low input impedance of speakers makes speaker cable capacitance unimportant. Almost always true. There are a few marginally unstable amps that might be affected by the capacitance of speaker cable, but they should be avoided anyway. Low resistance and inductance are what's important. Stick with 12 AWG ZIP. In the states, Home Depot and other home improvement stores sell 12 gauge speaker cable for something like $65 for a 250 foot roll. Good stuff, I'm on my second roll. Biwiring advantages defy all laws of electromagnetic physics. As stated, it's a brilliant way to sell double the speaker wire. Agreed. |
#17
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:14:27 GMT, "Uptown Audio"
wrote: That's not true. There are a lot of options and without gutting the speaker, an external crossover could be called less meaningful. It is true. An external crossover will definitely not suffer any *possible* microphonic effects on its components (and of course is very easy to convert to fully active mode), whereas there is *no* advantage which can be shown for either bi-wiring or 'passive' biamping. This is just another 'high end' scam to sell twice the wire or twice the amplifiers. If your present amp is too weedy to drive your speakers, don't buy *another* weedy amp, chop it in for one decent big one! "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message news:g33Wa.26242$YN5.24852@sccrnsc01... On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 03:14:30 GMT, "Uptown Audio" wrote: The term Bi-Amp has more practical meaning. Without an active crossover, it is still a meaningless exercise. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#18
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
More smoke and mirrors. Tell that to anyone who uses amps and speakers
professionally. It sounds almost like you have some sort of axe to grind. I thought that you had said that all amps sound the same. Why would you buy a larger one then? Any way you avoid my point about flexibility (the ability to use various amps and levels). Personal taste and creativity (or lack thereof) can come to play in the selection of equipment and in it's implementation. That doesn't mean that you have to like it, just accept that it's someone else's kit and they will do with it as they will to get the best sound, form and function for their budget. They will cringe at your cable and you will cringe at their tube amp. You both will have fun and contrary to your suggestions, neither of you will be superior. - Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:14:27 GMT, "Uptown Audio" wrote: That's not true. There are a lot of options and without gutting the speaker, an external crossover could be called less meaningful. It is true. An external crossover will definitely not suffer any *possible* microphonic effects on its components (and of course is very easy to convert to fully active mode), whereas there is *no* advantage which can be shown for either bi-wiring or 'passive' biamping. This is just another 'high end' scam to sell twice the wire or twice the amplifiers. If your present amp is too weedy to drive your speakers, don't buy *another* weedy amp, chop it in for one decent big one! "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message news:g33Wa.26242$YN5.24852@sccrnsc01... On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 03:14:30 GMT, "Uptown Audio" wrote: The term Bi-Amp has more practical meaning. Without an active crossover, it is still a meaningless exercise. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#19
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
James Mitchell said:
Biwiring advantages defy all laws of electromagnetic physics. As stated, it's a brilliant way to sell double the speaker wire. I wonder. Although I have been described as "technically challenged" by one kind contributor (true enough, but still a manners challenged remark ) I still try to think about why things work. I made a guess about bi wiring that I would like to check with the technically gifted RAHE contributors. If high frequencies traveling through a conductor are affected by the presence of lower frequencies on that conductor, since the high pass filter blocks most of the bass frequencies, might that not reduce some sort of deleterious intermodulation effect on the sound of the high pass portion of the speaker? Feel free to comment. There is no need to be gentle, as in my 22 years of retail experience I grew used to every engineering student who ventured into the store telling me that he knew far more than ever would about sound. Later I learned from my son that only scientists had the ability to reason, and that only physicists were actual scientists. As he was about to receive a PhD (fortunately in Physics) I knew that he must know whereof he spoke. I of course, as an English major, I had no choice but to accept his word for it. Therefore I have already been humbled, so don't worry about my feelings. Wylie Williams |
#20
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
If your going to biwire, leave the jumpers between the binding posts in.
With two parallel wires, you cut the wire resistance and inductance in half. I never thought of this. I have some bi-wired speakers only because someone gave me some speaker wire set up that way for free and I'm using it. Is this really the best thing to do? obviously if you buy into the bi-wire idea, then no, but since I don't... I would of thought doubling the capacitance would be bad despite the low aplifier impedence. P h i l i p ______________________________ "I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa" - Dorothy Parker |
#21
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On 2 Aug 2003 00:40:24 GMT, "Uptown Audio"
wrote: More smoke and mirrors. No Bill, *your* argument is the one with smoke and mirrors, mine is that there is *no* engineering reason why bi-wiring or passive bi-amping will have any audible effect. Tell that to anyone who uses amps and speakers professionally. They *never* bi-wire, and they only bi-amp with active crossovers. It sounds almost like you have some sort of axe to grind. Me? I have no axe to grind, I have no commercial interest whatever in selling more wire or more amps. I thought that you had said that all amps sound the same. No, I said that most well-designed amps operated below clipping sound the same. Tom Nousaine is a little bolder than I on this point. Why would you buy a larger one then? Did you miss the point about clipping? Any way you avoid my point about flexibility (the ability to use various amps and levels). I didn't avoid it, it's irrelevant. Since good amps sound the same, it makes no difference what amps you use, and since the entire output signal is delivered to both amps, it makes no difference whether one or both are connected to the speakers. If you want to alter the balance between bass and treble against the designers settings, that's what tone controls are for. Personal taste and creativity (or lack thereof) can come to play in the selection of equipment and in it's implementation. That doesn't mean that you have to like it, just accept that it's someone else's kit and they will do with it as they will to get the best sound, form and function for their budget. They will cringe at your cable and you will cringe at their tube amp. You both will have fun and contrary to your suggestions, neither of you will be superior. But one of us will have more accurate reproduction, and will have better speakers for the same system budget. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#22
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:04:29 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote: James Mitchell said: Biwiring advantages defy all laws of electromagnetic physics. As stated, it's a brilliant way to sell double the speaker wire. If high frequencies traveling through a conductor are affected by the presence of lower frequencies on that conductor, since the high pass filter blocks most of the bass frequencies, might that not reduce some sort of deleterious intermodulation effect on the sound of the high pass portion of the speaker? Yes, *but* the reality is that down to -160dB (the limit of measurement with any gear I've been able to lay hands on), there simply is*no* such intermodulation effect in cables. IOW, treble and bass frequencies do *not* interfere with each other in the same cable. There is the *possibility* of some level changes occuring in some systems in the octave surrounding the crossover frequency, due to the various impedance matches between amplifier and drivers, but such effects will be limited to -40dB or so at most, and are almost certainly inaudible. The bottom line is that not one single person has ever demonstrated an ability to hear bi-wiring under double-blind conditions, i.e. when they didn't *know* that the bi-wiring option was engaged. Feel free to comment. There is no need to be gentle, as in my 22 years of retail experience I grew used to every engineering student who ventured into the store telling me that he knew far more than ever would about sound. Well, there does seem to be an accumulation of evidence in this forum, which points that way...... :-) Later I learned from my son that only scientists had the ability to reason, and that only physicists were actual scientists. As he was about to receive a PhD (fortunately in Physics) I knew that he must know whereof he spoke. No, he is simply defending his turf! I am also a physicist by academic training, but I would not be so dismissive of the other scientific disciplines. Hopefully, he'll grow out of this youthful arrogance. One might more logically argue that only philosophers and mathematicians have the ability to reason, while scientists simply make speculative guesses to explain why the universe measures the way it does. Frequently, they are wrong guesses which have to be junked when a new set of measurements proves that the fit is not good. Science is not about reasoning, it is about investigation and speculation. BTW, I'm also a long-term professional engineer, and my take would be that only engineers have the ability to make things work, as most scientists seem barely able to tie their own shoelaces...... :-) I of course, as an English major, I had no choice but to accept his word for it. Therefore I have already been humbled, so don't worry about my feelings. Consider me unworried.......... :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#23
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
"RBernst929" wrote in message
news:XBHWa.31560$cF.11010@rwcrnsc53 Friends... i don't think you should be dogmatic about this subject one way or the other as there are too many variables. If your speakers have bi-wire terminals, then by all means try it.. you can always go back. Its that simple. For me, i tried it with my Martin Logan Aerius i's... and definitely heard and prefer them bi-wired. I've tried bi-wiring any number of times with a variety of amps and speakers and it makes no difference at all in my listening tests. I've done some relevant measurements, and there actually are tiny differences, but they are so tiny as to be irrelevant. People have "heard" lots of strange things over the years. Green pen lines around the edges of CDs, raising speaker wires off the floor, freezing wires and CDs, demagnetising CDs, daubing parts inside amplifiers with oils and lacquers, placing bricks on top of amplifiers, etc., etc. Interestingly enough, if you do blind listening tests, all not just some, but all of these things that so many people say they "heard" just go away. Reverting to the supplied jumpers resulted in less clarity and detail. Or so you thought you "heard". And that's why there is such a controversy about blind listening tests. |
#24
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
news:hLGWa.45067$Ho3.6272@sccrnsc03... James Mitchell said: Biwiring advantages defy all laws of electromagnetic physics. As stated, it's a brilliant way to sell double the speaker wire. I wonder. Although I have been described as "technically challenged" by one kind contributor (true enough, but still a manners challenged remark ) I still try to think about why things work. I made a guess about bi wiring that I would like to check with the technically gifted RAHE contributors. If high frequencies traveling through a conductor are affected by the presence of lower frequencies on that conductor, They don't. Feel free to comment. There is no need to be gentle, as in my 22 years of retail experience I grew used to every engineering student who ventured into the store telling me that he knew far more than ever would about sound. Later I learned from my son that only scientists had the ability to reason, and that only physicists were actual scientists. So all those bridges and airplanes and computers designed by engineers don't really work? I'll keep that in mind the next time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge. - Gary Rosen |
#25
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Wylie Williams wrote:
Later I learned from my son that only scientists had the ability to reason, and that only physicists were actual scientists. As he was about to receive a PhD (fortunately in Physics) I knew that he must know whereof he spoke. I of course, as an English major, I had no choice but to accept his word for it. Here is an example of an extremely ill-formed opinion elevated to fact. If I were you, I'll ask for a refund from the university about to grant your son the Ph. D. degree. Assuming you were paying for the degree, of course. |
#26
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
I agree, but would suggest that the term "circuit theory" be used rather than
electromagnetic theory, which largly applies tothe behavior of "electromagnetic waves" propagating through space (including our atmosphere) or other similar mediums. Of course, it is possible to apply E-M theory to almost any problem where electric and/or magnetic fields exist. |
#27
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
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#28
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Wylie Williams wrote:
Later I learned from my son that only scientists had the ability to reason, and that only physicists were actual scientists. As he was about to receive a PhD (fortunately in Physics) I knew that he must know whereof he spoke. I of course, as an English major, I had no choice but to accept his word for it. Here is an example of an extremely ill-formed opinion elevated to fact. If I were you, I'll ask for a refund from the university about to grant your son the Ph. D. degree. Assuming you were paying for the degree, of course. This was just to say that I have observed that highly intelligent men in technical fields of study develop egos in proportion to their education. With time I am sure most mature and grow more tolerant. This aside seems to have touched a nerve in several RAHE contributors. Sorry. Present company excepted, of course. Wylie Williams |
#29
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On 2 Aug 2003 00:40:24 GMT, in article , "Uptown
stated: More smoke and mirrors. Tell that to anyone who uses amps and speakers professionally. It sounds almost like you have some sort of axe to grind. I thought that you had said that all amps sound the same. Why would you buy a larger one then? Any way you avoid my point about flexibility (the ability to use various amps and levels). Personal taste and creativity (or lack thereof) can come to play in the selection of equipment and in it's implementation. That doesn't mean that you have to like it, just accept that it's someone else's kit and they will do with it as they will to get the best sound, form and function for their budget. They will cringe at your cable and you will cringe at their tube amp. You both will have fun and contrary to your suggestions, neither of you will be superior. - Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 If you like the sound of tubes (and, increasingly, tube designs are becoming available that keep the sound that people love while minimizing the artifacts), then bi-amping can be a sensible solution. Some of the leading cost-no-object speaker systems on the market, particularly those designed to work with SETs and other lower-power amplifiers, have biamping inherent in them: the Avantgarde Trios (w/o the room-swallowing basshorns) and the Pipedreams are two examples. Now, suppose you have excellent big dynamic speakers that require a lot of power to drive their massive woofers; you've had beefy solid state amps to drive them but want to try tube sonority. You probably can't drive those speakers to loud volumes with many of the tube amplifiers on the market (you might try Hurricanes or Atmaspheres, but you're not going to get, say, 300B sound with enough power); one obvious solution is to keep your solid state amp and biamp the mids & uppers with a valve amp. Audio solutions don't exist in a vacuum; in the real world where people can't write blank checks (and even if they could may not desire to throw beloved existing components in the trash), they must take into account people's existing equipment and room limitations. For some of those situations, biamping with different amplifiers makes a lot of sense. I would agree, however, that the case for biwiring is much sketchier (and more amenable to generalization). interstate5 |
#30
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
The senerio you posit is unlikely to be obtainable in a home
enviroment. However by avoiding sight of and any communication with the person having knowledge of the state of the connections one can approach the ideal. Been a long time since my experimental design and stat courses but the method I related is as close as is practical. The key being no stimuli being percived by the listener which might indicate the state of the wire. Louis On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:28:19 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:02:35 GMT, mfr wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? For the fun of it do it in a double blind study. Have a friend hook up the speakers and leave the room before you come back in and you write your inpressions in a book you keep then leave the room before he comes back in and repeat for about ten times and see if your result is strongly leaning in either way. That's not double blind. That's more like single blind times two. ; In a DBT, neither the person doing the switching, nor the person being tested, knows what 'state' the switch is in at any given time. In a clinical trial this is equivalent to neither the doctor nor the patient knowing which treatment the patient received, at the time of treatment. (The treatments are coded so that later on it can be determined whether the treatment was 'real' or placebo.) |
#31
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
wrote in message
news:PX_Xa.75750$YN5.58121@sccrnsc01... The senerio you posit is unlikely to be obtainable in a home enviroment. However by avoiding sight of and any communication with the person having knowledge of the state of the connections one can approach the ideal. Been a long time since my experimental design and stat courses but the method I related is as close as is practical. The key being no stimuli being percived by the listener which might indicate the state of the wire. Louis On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:28:19 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote: wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:02:35 GMT, mfr wrote: I've just bought my first pair of bi-wirable speakers (Totem Mites) and have been wondering what the benefits of "bi-wire" are...Anybody have opinions or facts??? For the fun of it do it in a double blind study. Have a friend hook up the speakers and leave the room before you come back in and you write your inpressions in a book you keep then leave the room before he comes back in and repeat for about ten times and see if your result is strongly leaning in either way. That's not double blind. That's more like single blind times two. ; In a DBT, neither the person doing the switching, nor the person being tested, knows what 'state' the switch is in at any given time. In a clinical trial this is equivalent to neither the doctor nor the patient knowing which treatment the patient received, at the time of treatment. (The treatments are coded so that later on it can be determined whether the treatment was 'real' or placebo.) If you take enough psych courses, and actually do psych. testing of individuals you will discover that some of the things being thrown around by the DBT or AXB testers overlooks one simple fact. The "placebo" effect IS REAL. Some patients who believe they are being medicated actually respond as if they ARE being medicated. Let us assume that a tweak, such as bi-wiring, has no negative effect on the system. Suppose that the listener, who knows that the bi-wiring has been done, believes that the sound has been improved. Since the whole idea of the system is to create an illusion, and a better illusion has been introduced in the mind of the listener, why should we need to argue the methods involved? If you want to destroy the illusion of improvement with science, so be it. It is also the same in clinical testing. Once the patient finds out they were not in the medicated group, their symptoms return (sometimes). This is because our brain uses both stimulus and reason along with previous experiences to process and present a real state of awareness. We cannot process stimulus without reasoning, and we cannot percieve without a memory. This is the basis for learning. In short, there is a real difference between blind testing results which always tend to be neutral, and reason which always tends to assume that physical differences must be accompanied by perceptual differences. |
#32
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
In looking for something about room treatment. I ran across an explanation of biwiring and I thought I would pass it on. Jon Risch mentions something about an AES paper or presentation so there is probably more to it than this one chart, but the chart seems to offer some validation for the idea of bi wiring.. http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page8.htm Jon is a technician, not an engineer. I've discussed this very issue with him directly back in the days when rec.audio.opinion was still an audio forum. He really doesn't understand that these diagrams of his are all about linear, not nonlinear properties. Jon and I share a common interest in using multitones for evaluating audio gear. His confusion about the difference between linear and nonlinear issues is where he and most others who use multitones for audio measurements split ways. If you want to see the true story about measuring with multitones, don't trust me. Here's a place to download lots of authoritative, relevant stuff from an widely-respected source: http://audioprecision.com/publicatio...pers/index.htm |
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Wylie Williams wrote:
In looking for something about room treatment. I ran across an explanation of biwiring and I thought I would pass it on. Jon Risch mentions something about an AES paper or presentation so there is probably more to it than this one chart, but the chart seems to offer some validation for the idea of bi wiring.. http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page8.htm Wylie Williams I do not know Mr. Jon Risch's background, but his analysis on that webpage is lacking in one very crucial area. If he hypothesizes that it is the intermodulation distortion products that account for the different currents in the bi-wire and single-wire cases, then he should vary the overall levels of his test signals to see how the differences change as a function of level. If it were truly distortion, the difference at low levels would be much reduced. Also, he is making it overly complicated by using his "phi signals". There is a lot that can be observed by using just two tones. Maybe he presented his data much better in the AES paper. But it should be possible to do the experiments to ascertain whether the differences are due to distortion of the drivers. Another troublesome issue was brought up when he said that the differences between different types of cable are 3 to 4 dB. Since the distortion is generated in the drivers, how can different cables yield different results between bi-wire and single-wire? |
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
Stewart Pinkerton wrote
One might more logically argue that only philosophers and mathematicians have the ability to reason, sorry Stewart I must take issue here Boole proved mathematically the only mathematicians can reason, Philosophers make illogical statements. ¬) while scientists simply make speculative guesses to explain why the universe measures the way it does. Frequently, they are wrong guesses which have to be junked when a new set of measurements proves that the fit is not good VERY TRUE Engineers make things work, - - usually because they were never told it wouldn't work. |
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Why Bi-wire speakers?
On 7 Aug 2003 22:43:54 GMT, "chris"
wrote: Stewart Pinkerton wrote One might more logically argue that only philosophers and mathematicians have the ability to reason, sorry Stewart I must take issue here Boole proved mathematically the only mathematicians can reason, Philosophers make illogical statements. ¬) That only applies to Boolean logic......... :-) while scientists simply make speculative guesses to explain why the universe measures the way it does. Frequently, they are wrong guesses which have to be junked when a new set of measurements proves that the fit is not good VERY TRUE Engineers make things work, - - usually because they were never told it wouldn't work. Frequently, we''ve been told that it *can't* work - but we're a bloody-minded bunch, and make it work anyway! -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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