[Rockinghorse Winner]

I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing
my speaker cable and connects. I currently use 14 gauge zip cord and
gold plated Radio Shack interconnects. I have heard all the arguments
pro and con with the speaker cable vs zip cord. I don't wish to revive
that main discussion. I just have a few clarifying questions for the
skeptics out there.

First, supposing the incontrovertible: that for the average speaker
system, perceptible improvement ceases after a minimum of speaker cable
engineering. The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the price/performance curve
flattens to negligibility?

Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does your choice
align with what you advocate publically?



Rockinghorse Winner


--
god bless

http://www.Hello-Radio.Com

http://home.xandros.com/products/home/home_edition.html

http://www.drudgereport.com/irak.jpg
















(nosey!)

[Eeyore]

Rockinghorse Winner wrote:

The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the price/performance curve
flattens to negligibility?

The largest conductor that'll fit into the connectors at the lowest price is the
only way to go.

Often 2.5mm square but 4 is nice too ( around 11 AWG )

Your 14 AWG is already 2mm square and unless you have a very long run it's
unlikely there'll be any audible difference.

You might actually like to try some thinner cable if you want see how much
difference is possible.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Rockinghorse Winner" wrote in
message

First, supposing the incontrovertible: that for the
average speaker system, perceptible improvement ceases
after a minimum of speaker cable engineering. The
question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the
price/performance curve flattens to negligibility?

Please see the web page I wrote about this:

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm

Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does
your choice align with what you advocate publically?

I buy 250' rolls of 12 gauge stranded low voltage wire from Home Depot or
Lowes. and cut to length for home and lab use. In live sound applications I
pick up suitable lengths of 12 or 14 gauge SOJ-type rubber-jacketed
extension cord cable from the same sources.

[George M. Middius]

NastyBorg is still trying to assimilate his first human into the Hive.
It's all about sicicccnncce, folks & guys!

Engineer's Prayer

Dear Lord, Almighty God; Maker of the Universe and mo

In your mercy, glory and power, which so rapidly approached and
now uniquely circumscribes infinity, because you created it.

Please grant me the wisdom to know what should be readily and
effectively analyzed, and what should be understood intuitively.

Please grant me the mathematical skills, theoretical knowledge, and
computational power to analyze what should be analyzed.

Please grant me the experimental and statistical skills to determine
experimentally what should determined experimentally.

Please grant me the project management and optimization skills to use
all the resources which you have graciously and undeservedly placed
at my disposal, to their fullest.

Finally, Dear Lord, please grant me adequate funding and time so I can
eat, work, and even occasionally relax comfortably; while I am having
all this "fun"! I will take time to praise, study and worship you regardless.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come
knowledge and understanding.


Yes, Arnii, lead us in a "prayer" that we may findeth some cheap wire.

Short answer for anybody with a grain of common sense: Get some generic
12-gauge and try it out. Or spend extra for pre-terminated fancy wire if
that suits your fancy. Don't obsess about "performance" of wire unless
your speakers are extraordinarily inefficient AND the amplifier is more
than 30 feet from the speakers.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Eeyore]

"George M. Middius" wrote:

Short answer for anybody with a grain of common sense: Get some generic
12-gauge and try it out. Or spend extra for pre-terminated fancy wire if
that suits your fancy. Don't obsess about "performance" of wire unless
your speakers are extraordinarily inefficient AND the amplifier is more
than 30 feet from the speakers.

Good Lord.

A post about audio matters ! One that even makes sense.

Graham

[George M. Middius]

Poopie said:

A post about audio matters ! One that even makes sense.

No comment about Krazy Krooger's "god" fetish?




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Walt]

Rockinghorse Winner wrote:

I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing
my speaker cable and connects. I currently use 14 gauge zip cord and
gold plated Radio Shack interconnects. I have heard all the arguments
pro and con with the speaker cable vs zip cord. I don't wish to revive
that main discussion. I just have a few clarifying questions for the
skeptics out there.

First, supposing the incontrovertible: that for the average speaker
system, perceptible improvement ceases after a minimum of speaker cable
engineering. The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the price/performance curve
flattens to negligibility?

Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does your choice
align with what you advocate publically?

The relevant parameters for speaker cable are

1) DC resistance per foot
2) capacitance per foot
3) Inductance per foot
4) Length of the cable

With those four numbers, you can calculate the response, assuming you
know the impedance of your speakers. The lower the overall capatance,
inductance and resistance, the closer the cable behaves to the ideal
perfectly transparent conductor. The easiest way to achieve this is to
have the cable be short.

In practice, the effects of capacitance and inductance are negligible at
audio frequencies for almost all cables at reasonable lengths ( 50
feet). So, mostly it's the DC resistance that's important. The fatter
the wire, the lower the resistance. 12 gauge is good for up to about 50
feet. 16 gauge is good to about 15 feet. I don't see any reason to go
thinner than 16, and just using 12 gauge everywhere won't break the
bank. That's what I do - zip cord for simple hookups, CL-X rated
jacketed for in-wall.

If you are running esoteric tube amps and electrostatic speakers, you
may want to get out a sharper pencil.

See
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/buyingguides/interconnects/cable_budget.php

//Walt

[Powell]

"Rockinghorse Winner" wrote

I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing my
speaker cable and connects.

Start with interconnects first.

Then considering speaker cables. Audition differences
between solid core and stranded then try bi-wiring
(number of configurations). If there are no audible
difference for you then cheap stranded cable will do.
Much also depends on your overall budget, too.


The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum requirements of a
speaker cable before the price/performance curve flattens to negligibility?

Depends on the equipment and the application.
There are good values in interconnects, for
example, between $30-$600 1m, IME.


Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does your choice align
with what you advocate publically?

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning instead of perusing cables
as a source of increasing the overall resolution of your
system. Cables are necessary and there are many
factors to consider especially if you are on a limited
budget.

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" wrote in message


If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

[Powell]

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare
conditions.
Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Delusions of omnisicence noted. In fact I have a fairly large and effective
power conditioner at my disposal.

[Powell]

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare
conditions.
Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Delusions of omnisicence noted. In fact I have a fairly
large and effective power conditioner at my disposal.

Gas-bag, you've already posted that your only
experience with a line conditioner is a 1968
Studebaker/Onan.

[Clyde Slick]

Arny Krueger a scris:
"Powell" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare
conditions.
Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Delusions of omnisicence noted. In fact I have a fairly large and effective
power conditioner at my disposal.

[Clyde Slick]

Arny Krueger a scris:
"Powell" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare
conditions.
Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Delusions of omnisicence noted. In fact I have a fairly large and effective
power conditioner at my disposal.

Oh!
So now it "is" effective. If only the debating
trade were as effective.

[AZ Nomad]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:16:24 -0500, Powell wrote:



"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Have you been hiding in arny's closet watching his every move?

[George M. Middius]

BozoBorg nattered:

Have you been hiding in arny's closet watching his every move?

As we all know, Arnii's closet is very crowded. It's full of teenage
trainees, ambiguous porn, and obsolete P-chips that Krooger converted into
"discipline" toys.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Clyde Slick]

AZ Nomad a scris:
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:16:24 -0500, Powell wrote:



"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning

Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Not that you have any empirical experiences on
the subject, dote.

Have you been hiding in arny's closet watching his every move?

As a teenager, Powell was once one of Arny's basement boys.

[Walt]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Powell" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning


Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Power line conditioning can be helpful if there are problems with the
power. If not, it's a waste of money. In a home situation, determine if
it's a problem before buying. In a portable system (PA, location
recording, AV, etc.) where you may be plugging into god knows what day
after day, it may save the gig often enough to pay for itself.

Not snake oil, but not usually necessary either.

//Walt

[Harry Lavo]

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Powell" wrote
If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning


Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Power line conditioning can be helpful if there are problems with the
power. If not, it's a waste of money. In a home situation, determine if
it's a problem before buying. In a portable system (PA, location
recording, AV, etc.) where you may be plugging into god knows what day
after day, it may save the gig often enough to pay for itself.

Not snake oil, but not usually necessary either.


That's been my experience as well.

[Powell]

"Walt" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning


Snake oil if there ever was any, except in a few rare conditions.

Power line conditioning can be helpful if there are problems with the
power. If not, it's a waste of money. In a home situation, determine if
it's a problem before buying. In a portable system (PA, location
recording, AV, etc.) where you may be plugging into god knows what day
after day, it may save the gig often enough to pay for itself.

Not snake oil, but not usually necessary either.

Agreed, and it cost nothing to demo.

[Eeyore]

Powell wrote:

"Rockinghorse Winner" wrote

I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing my
speaker cable and connects.

Start with interconnects first.

snip 'magic cable nonsense


If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning instead of perusing cables
as a source of increasing the overall resolution of your
system.

What do you mean by conditioning ?

Graham

[Powell]

"Eeyore" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning instead of perusing cables
as a source of increasing the overall resolution of your
system.

What do you mean by conditioning ?

Graham

There are four different classes of power conditioners:

1. General filtering
2. Specialized filtering: analog, digital, power amp
3. Specialized filtering with isolated transformers
4. Power regeneration

FYI...

Nigel's Power Line Conditioner Info Sheet ©2000

V 1.15
This document may be copied so long as it is copied in it's
entirety, including copyright, and so long as it is not posted to
rec.audio.high-end

Sections:

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
III. HTML Links
IV. Specific Products & Technology
V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
VI. Closing Comments

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
=====================================
Before there was such a market for high end tweaks and buzz words
in high end audio/video companies like APCC & Tripplite among many
others were already making power conditioners for the computer and
electronics industry. These devices are still made and they are used to
provide voltage regulation for devices like copiers. They used
transformers with multiple taps, and as the input voltage surges or sags
the relays or transistors in the power conditioner would switch among
the different transformer taps. I thought Tice or Audio Power made a
similar device, but I seem to be mistaken. Two good source of
non- esoteric power line conditioners are www.furmasound.com and
www.equitech.com. Pretty good looking stuff if you have common
surge/sagging problems.


Today there are many things called a line conditioner, and they are
not all the same. In general a power line conditioner can be everything
from a power strip with surge protection to larger, beefy boxes that
do a variety of things to the incoming AC power.

A line conditioner may have some features to do the following:

1. Filter the AC signal so you get closer to
an ideal 60 Hz signal.
2. Provide surge protection
3. Provide Under / Over voltage protection
(turns off)
4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)
5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)
6. Provide a lower apparent impedance to the source
(like PS Audio, Elgar, etc.)

Different products work differently, and will have different feature mixes.
The heavier, the more you are paying for, so beleive it or not the cost per
pound is a good indicator of how much is going into the product, and a
good guage of how much you should be paying for it. If you just spent
$1,300 on a power strip you can pick up with your pinky, you paid too
much. Articles in Hi Fi News and Record Review (a brit mag) in
1998-99 give some insight into building your own.

Alas not all filtration is the same. Products which claim to filter RFI/EMI
only start to work at around 100 kHz or higher, which is far above human
audibility. The theoretically ideal power line filter would filter out all
signals below and above 60 Hz.

II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
============================
II.a: NEEDS
Unless you suffer from chronic over/under voltages at your house then
chances are you don't really need a power conditioner, the system will
work reliably without it.

You may very well find that surge protection is important to you. Check
out the separate "Nigel's Surge Supression Info Sheet".

If you're buying some fancy power line conditioner that is supposed to
include surge protection, ask them if the equipment has been certified to
UL 1449 Second Edition. I have yet to see an audio equipment
"Conditioner" manufacturer that claims surge supression publish any sort
of UL or CSA listing on their web site, so be careful about relying on them
for surge supression. This does not include Monster Cable's strips, they
are primarily a surge supressor, with noise filters added, and are in
fact UL 1449 certified.

II.b: WANTS
Audio/videophiles WANT power conditioners because they feel it will
improve the quality of their listening or viewing experience. How much
of an audible or visible difference a power line conditioner will make in
your world depends on the following:

1. The quality of your incoming AC power.
2. The quality of your components power supplies.
3. The resolution of your system
(Fix your room acoustics first, then
worry about power line issues)
4. The effectiveness & features of the
line conditioner.
5. How much noise the line conditioner itself
actually creates
(a potential problem in a UPS)
6. What frequencies the power conditioner's filtration
is effective at.
7. Your gullibility

An example of exceptional power supply design is found in much of Krell
and Mark Levinson equipment some of which use fully regulated, fully
balanced power supplies. This is a rare thing, but any potential benefit
from a power conditioner may be a mute point with this equipment. Most
amplifiers use unregulated, but highly filtered power supplies, relying on
the incoming AC voltage remaining constant, and large capacitors to
reduce any noise on the line.

II.c: WON'Ts
One thing most line conditioners don't do is fix ground loop problems (i.e.
a loud 60 Hz hum you hear coming from your speakers), in some cases
they can actually make things worse by improving the connection to ground
of your equipment. The ideal way to fix a ground loop problem is to use
signal level isolation transformers between your system and the source of
the problem, which is often the cable TV or a computer connection. Check
out:

www.jensentransformers.com

for a variety of safe solutions. Otherwise, if you want to start a fire or
electrocute yourself or your family, use a 2-3 prong adaptor, a.k.a. a
cheater plug.

There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that provide balanced
outputs may reduce ground loop related hums, as well as provide a good
lowering of the overall noise floor.

Also, power conditioners should not be used to substitute for bad electrical
wiring. In some cases a power conditioner may make things worse,
drawing more current and stressing the existing wiring. You should
NEVER over fuse wiring.

III. HTML Links
================
Here is a variety of links to people selling things that go between your
equipment and the incoming AC line.

www.apcc.com
www.audiopower.com
www.accuphase.com
www.belkin.com
www.bestpower.com
www.brickwall.com
www.elgar.com
www.equitech.com
www.furmasound.com
www.monstercable.com
www.psaudio.com
www.surgex.com
www.ticeaudio.com
www.tripplite.com
www.vansevers.com

You should also check the links from www.stereophile.com which seem to
be pretty exhaustive, and mention many more manufacturer links to audio
related power line products than I do here. Be warned however that while
the list at Stereophile may be more comprehensive than mine, it's less
discriminating, and includes some products I feel provide particularly poor
return on investment.

IV. Products & Technology
==========================
Some products merit special attention in my book, for a variety of reasons.

Monster Cable
=============
Despite having the WORST web site in all of audio regarding technology,
with gross technical and gramatical errors, several people have sent me
e-mails defending their power strips, claiming they made improvements in
picture or video quality. Heck if I know, but you might want to, they're
not too
expensive.

Panamax
=======
Panamax gets special because they do have complete A/V surge protection
solutions their parts quality does not usually merit what they charge, like
$99 for a standard surge strip, and I've read of reliability and warranty
problems online, so you should check the archives at www.deja.com. In
my opinion APCC, Triplite and Belkin all give you more surge
protection/dollar than Panamax.

The Panamax DBS+ I have (got a deal on it) has failed to protect my two
satelite receivers from wind related static discharge , so I'm not too happy
with them these dayas.

Brickwall & Zerosurge
=====================
Working on a completely different principle of surge protection than MOV
based surge protectors are the models from Brick Wall and ZeroSurge.
They are basically single pole low pass filters ( a good thing ) for your
power lines. The claimed response is -3db at 3 kHz. This effectively
limits the maximum Volts/Second. When a surge hits, it becomes a 2nd
and 3rd order low pass filter. Surgex also OEM's these devices, or
licenses the technology.

This low start point for their noise filtration puts them into both my Line
Conditioner sheet as well as my Surge Protection sheet.

Audo Power & Tice
=================
Moving closer to the ideal of a power line conditioner are the ones that use
isolation transformers. These have a much better capacity to remove audible
power line noise than mere surge strips. Audio Power & Tice have a variety
of products you should take a listen to, if you can get past Tice's voodoo
web pages (i.e. their Q&A section). Note that not all these products use
isolation transformers, so check to be sure what you're getting.

Richard Gray's Power Company
============================
Tremendous hype on their web site is parroted almost word for word by
dealers and customers. Their web site and "Grey Paper" fails to make any
truly technical statements about what the product does and IMHO they offer
poor return on investment, considering the parts that actually go into them,
and that they sell for around $700. I would encourage people to either
spend another $300 for a PS Audio unit, or spend less for something from
Furmasound or Equitech, or even getting a power conditioner (not a UPS)
from APC or Tripp Lite instead of buying a product from this company.

PS Audio
========
New are the Power Plant models from PS Audio. PS Audio has taken the
high road, and said electrical bill be damned! We'll get clean power no
matter the cost. The Power Plant models are basically power amplifiers that
re-create the 115 Volt AC signal at their output. They are perhaps the most
ambitious designs I've seen so far and again have some good ideas behind
them. Their prices seem very reasonable, considering how much goes into
one and the current offerings of power conditioners in the market, and they
certainly should be able to meet their twin goals of:

Greatly reducing apparent power line impedance

- AND -

Greatly reducing power line noise and distortion

The technology used may very well be the best at doing those two
things in combination.

Since the Power Plants are essentially class AB amplifiers they
are no better than 50% efficient, so expect it to add additional
heat and electrical current draw to your electric circuit, which
is something to pay attention to if you're close to being
overloading it already. On the other hand, using a linear (AB)
amplifier stage removes the likelihood of more digital noise
being introduced into the 60 Hz waveform it generates.

If the PS Audio units don't have enough current capacity, consider the
products from Elgar, sweeet....way expensive! If you have money to
burn, perhaps you should consider an Elgar as a pre-conditioner, and
use a PS Audio unit for your source components only.

Other equipment manufacturers should also take note that unlike many
sites PS Audio's web site was delightfully free of bovine scatalogical
samples.

Chang Lightspeed
================
Chang Lightspeed need comments on because of their on-line
advertising which demonizes coils & transformers. They're right
about small, poorly designed coils actually increasing the power
line impedance, however what they fail to note is that by going
coilless their conditioners may very well not be able to remove
any power line noise within the audible spectrum. This noise
is the most important to audiophiles are concerned with as it has
the best chance of being propagated through the power supplies
of the equipment and finally to our ears. Perhaps this is why their
on-line advertising mentions RFI/EMI noise reduction so much,
and makes no mention of audio frequency noise reduction. Coil
impedance can be overcome by using bigger and better inductors.

Does anyone know how much these puppies weigh? I bet you
they're lighter and are less expensive to manufacture than
comparative products from manufacturers who DO use coils
in their designs.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies
==============================
A UPS is a must for anyone doing serious computer work, but it's benefits
for audiophiles will vary. If you're going to try a UPS to improve the
sound / picture quality then avoid the standby kind, which have a 2-4 ms
lag before they turn on. Get one labeled "line interactive."

Because UPS's are designed for computers they usually pay little attention
to how much grunge is coming out when they generate the output
waveform, which could in turn easily make your system sound worse, not
better. The solution is to make sure the output of your UPS is a sine wave,
with the lowest possible distortion and noise. So, avoid "stepped
aproximation" and look for "pure sinewave" output.

Lastly, most UPS have a relatively loose voltage regulation. For example,
as the input voltage varies from 90 to 145 volts the UPS will output from
105 to 125 volts. It's a smaller variation than what's coming in, and it's
certainly better than any passive conditioners like Audio Power or Tice
but it's certainly not the best technology could do if money were no object.

Radio Shack
===========
Yes, RS can be an audiophiles best friend, especially when he/she is
looking for a $20 voltage meter. If you think you have a chronic voltage
problem at your home or listening room outlets go get a meter and find
out. If it's bad enough, perhaps you should start with a phone call to your
electrical company and/or electrician before getting a voltage conditioner.


V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
=============================================
One potential improvement audiophiles can make, fairly easily if they are
electronically and dangerously inclined, is to increase the power supply
filter capacitance. You can do this both by replacing the current storage
capacitors to higher values of capacitance (and equal or better voltages)
and also by adding storage capacitance across the maximum + and - voltage
rails of the device (make sure the capacitor's voltage rating is greater
than the difference between the + and - rails, of course). While we're
going there, consider also replacing the filter caps with less inductive
versions if possible such as caps from Sanyo or Panasonic (I think, sorry,
it's been a while since I was opening data books so check this out yourself)
as well as adding polypropelyne or polystyrene capacitors of equal or
greater voltage rating in parallel with any upgrades you do.

Be careful with how much capacitance you add, adding capacitance
increases the turn on (inrush) current and may over-stress the bridge
rectifier. Of course, the fix for this is to add a bigger rectifier so you
can get more power! (Grunt grunt!) And if you fry your transforer too,
well that can be fixed as well!

This little tweak alone can greatly increase the S/N ratio of many mass
market electronic devices far more than other tweaks, such as new power
cables. If you already have a very good power supply it won't matter
much as if you didn't (i.e. it will make a bigger difference for mass market
Sony or Yamaha than Krell or Mark Levinson).

I won't go into any more detail than this, if you have to ask chances are
you shouldn't be in there anyway. Oh, yeah, and as always, if you're an
idiot and hurt yourself or your equipment don't call me, have your mama
call me so I can tell her what a dufus you are.

VI. Closing Comments
=====================
I don't mean to exclude anyone, so if I missed you or a product you feel
deserves special mention send an e-mail to nigel_tufnel@my- deja.com
and I'll add it onto this growing and improving list.

As always, thoughtful, informative discussions are encouraged,
corrections are gladly accepted, and flames may be sent to
. It's your ears, eyes and wallet you're trying to
please. Advice from anyone is a good way to start but it's your hard
earned dollar so you should always be the final judge of a products
worth.

Happy Listening,

Nigel

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" wrote in message

"Eeyore" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning instead of perusing cables
as a source of increasing the overall resolution of your
system.

What do you mean by conditioning ?

Graham

There are four different classes of power conditioners:

1. General filtering
2. Specialized filtering: analog, digital, power amp
3. Specialized filtering with isolated transformers
4. Power regeneration

All completely necessary with good audio gear and normal wall socket power.

Sections:

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
III. HTML Links
IV. Specific Products & Technology
V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
VI. Closing Comments

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
=====================================
Before there was such a market for high end tweaks and
buzz words in high end audio/video companies like APCC & Tripplite
among many others were already making power conditioners for the
computer and electronics industry.

They are used only under exceptional conditions.

These devices are
still made and they are used to provide voltage
regulation for devices like copiers.

Go check the copiers in the building you work. Just about all of them will
be plugged into the wall without the intervention of a power conditioner.

They used
transformers with multiple taps, and as the input voltage
surges or sags the relays or transistors in the power
conditioner would switch among the different transformer taps.

Or, they used ferroresonant transformers.

I thought Tice or Audio
Power made a similar device, but I seem to be mistaken. Two good source of
non- esoteric power line conditioners are
www.furmasound.com and www.equitech.com. Pretty good
looking stuff if you have common surge/sagging problems.

For about $30 you can buy a line voltage monitor called a "Kill-a-watt". If
your power is sagging, it will tell you. All audio gear will function
nominally when the normal 120 volt power is in the range of 105 to 135
volts.

A line conditioner may have some features to do the
following:

1. Filter the AC signal so you get closer to
an ideal 60 Hz signal.

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio gear can tolerate
very dirty AC power without audible problems.

2. Provide surge protection

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio gear can tolerate a
wide range of surges.

3. Provide Under / Over voltage protection
(turns off)

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio gear can tolerate a
wide range of voltage sources.

4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio gear can tolerate a
wide range of voltages. Audio gear that has internal circuits that are
critical of voltage levels have internal regulators.

5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)

Generally unecessary. In most places in the US, Canada, and Europe, the
power has very few outages. Power outages are more frustration than danger.

6. Provide a lower apparent impedance to the source
(like PS Audio, Elgar, etc.)

Generally unecessary for the reasons stated above. BTW, some of the tools
that are often unecesarily used by audiophiles to clean up power, end up
raising the source impedance of the power line. It's eaiser and more
sensible to disconnect them, than to use more expensive means to create any
difficulties that they may create.

Different products work differently, and will have
different feature mixes. The heavier, the more you are
paying for, so beleive it or not the cost per pound is a
good indicator of how much is going into the product,

Generally people don't have any problems with AC power. If its not broken,
don't fix it. If it is broken, then of course fix it. However the best means
for getting good AC power are pretty prosaic and don't involve high end
audio products. Get a professional electrician on the job, not some
saleshack on a web site or in an audio store.

Alas not all filtration is the same. Products which
claim to filter RFI/EMI only start to work at around 100
kHz or higher, which is far above human audibility. The
theoretically ideal power line filter would filter out
all signals below and above 60 Hz.

One of the best ways to filter HF noise out of AC power involves your
standard power transformer. They are intentially made with poor HF response.
They don't make good output transformers for tubed amps, but they do help
clean up the power. The next way involves the filter capacitors. One irony
is that most equipment that has built-in power line filtering beyond this,
does so because it is trying to keep from radiation HF noise, not keep it
out of the equipment.

II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
============================
II.a: NEEDS
Unless you suffer from chronic over/under voltages at
your house then chances are you don't really need a power
conditioner, the system will work reliably without it.

Amen, brother.

You may very well find that surge protection is important
to you. Check out the separate "Nigel's Surge Supression Info Sheet".

Every once in a while I see a computer that probably got knocked out by a
power surge. This usuall kills the PC's power supply. I see about one a
year. A surge protector might easily cost more than a new power supply.
Multiply that by all the PC's with unecessary external surge protectors that
could have simply shrugged off the surges they saw, or simply never got hit
by any.


II.b: WANTS
Audio/videophiles WANT power conditioners because they
feel it will improve the quality of their listening or viewing
experience.

Feel would be a good word. A lot of audiophilia is about feeling as opposed
to learning or thinking.

How much of an audible or visible difference a power line
conditioner will make in your world depends on the
following:
1. The quality of your incoming AC power.
2. The quality of your components power supplies.
3. The resolution of your system
(Fix your room acoustics first, then
worry about power line issues)

The point about acoustics is highly relevant. However the idea that there is
audio gear that has that much higher resolution than ordinary gear that it
is that much more sensitive to power is ********. More likely, the high end
gear is improperly designed and lacks the normal levels of rejection of
noise sources that are seen in mid-priced and professional audio gear.

7. Your gullibility

Good point.

An example of exceptional power supply design is found in
much of Krell and Mark Levinson equipment some of which use fully
regulated, fully balanced power supplies.

Actually, just about every piece of audio gear of even modest cost has
fully-regulated, fully-balanced power supplies, for the parts of the
equipment that would benefit from it. The idea that you've got to spend
megabucks to get equipment with a good power supply is total bullocks.

This is a rare thing,

That would be a false claim, providing we can believe that the author is
poorly-informed enough to actually believe what he just wrote.

but any potential benefit from a power conditioner
may be a moot point with this equipment.

Power conditioners are generally a moot point.

Most amplifiers
use unregulated, but highly filtered power supplies,
relying on the incoming AC voltage remaining constant,
and large capacitors to reduce any noise on the line.

Frankly, I would not call the main power supply in a power amp "highly
filtered". Genearlly there is only one stage of capacitive filtering, no
inductors, and no pi-network filtering. Furthermore, load that power amp up
and you'll often find volts of ripple on the main DC power lines in the
power amp. It's the output stage that rejects the ripple and makes the
output of the power amp clean.


There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that
provide balanced outputs may reduce ground loop related
hums, as well as provide a good lowering of the overall
noise floor.

Only an issue with poorly-designed equipment and systems.

snip manufacturer-by-manufacturer sales pitches

[Powell]

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If your budget is above $500 or so you might consider
a power line conditioning instead of perusing cables
as a source of increasing the overall resolution of your
system.

What do you mean by conditioning ?

Graham

There are four different classes of power conditioners:

1. General filtering
2. Specialized filtering: analog, digital, power amp
3. Specialized filtering with isolated transformers
4. Power regeneration

Snip Quacking

Zzzz...

[Arny Krueger]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Powell" wrote in message

"Eeyore" wrote
ons.

These devices are
still made and they are used to provide voltage
regulation for devices like copiers.

Go check the copiers in the building you work. Just
about all of them will be plugged into the wall without
the intervention of a power conditioner.

They used
transformers with multiple taps, and as the input
voltage surges or sags the relays or transistors in the
power conditioner would switch among the different
transformer taps.

Or, they used ferroresonant transformers.

The Sola ferroresonant transformer was usually mounted in
the basement so you didn't realize there even was one. I
have salvaged them from torn down gas stations and fast
food joints. They work great, mounted in the basement.

Mine sit in that big "Onan" box that frustrates Powell so much. I only trot
it out for things like specification tests on power amps.

For about $30 you can buy a line voltage monitor called
a "Kill-a-watt". If your power is sagging, it will tell
you. All audio gear will function nominally when the
normal 120 volt power is in the range of 105 to 135
volts.

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio
gear can tolerate a wide range of surges.

What you mean is they SHOULD BE able to. Many linear
supplies can't.

Got any test results to share? I have a 25 amp variac and a number of
voltage indicaters including an old RCA two Kill-a-watts.

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio
gear can tolerate a wide range of voltage sources.

See above.

Been there, done that.

4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)

Generally unecessary. The power supplies in good audio
gear can tolerate a wide range of voltages. Audio gear
that has internal circuits that are critical of voltage
levels have internal regulators.

5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)

Generally unecessary. In most places in the US, Canada,
and Europe, the power has very few outages. Power
outages are more frustration than danger.

We were out for three days two years ago. But under the
circumstances we didn't give a **** about the stereo.

And if you do, you need something that runs off of gas, gasolene, or diesel.


Switchmode supplies should be able to take surges-as
opposed to spikes-very well. Peecee supplies are built to
a purple panda's pussy hair on price. Then the customer
goes ape**** and demands a new computer, and if it's
within warranty the manufacturer gives them one. False
economy.

Well, they can recycle refurb computers well enough to still have a
business.

Power conditioners are generally a moot point.

Frankly, I would not call the main power supply in a
power amp "highly filtered". Genearlly there is only
one stage of capacitive filtering, no inductors, and no
pi-network filtering. Furthermore, load that power amp
up and you'll often find volts of ripple on the main DC
power lines in the power amp. It's the output stage
that rejects the ripple and makes the output of the
power amp clean.

That's one reason the PA amps you love to extol do not do
that well in high end service. But not the primary one.

I haven't seen a high end or other audiophile amp that was that much
different.

Most traditional solid state power amps have no voltage
regulation and in fact would benefit from regulating at
least up to the driver stage.

Nahh.

OTOH regulating the output
stage linearly does make for a lot more weight and heat,
as big heatsinks are necessary.

There aren't a lot of power amps that have regulated power supplies. The
Dyna 120 was one of them, and there was a Quad. AFAIK both are long out of
production.

Tube amps have much
better short-term energy control at the final stage, or
at least can have, without highly inefficient linear
shunt or pass regulation.

Nahh. Most tube amps have like a 50 uF PS cap at the PS output, which can
store a lot of voltage for its size, because of the 5x higher voltage. So
energy goes up with the square of the voltage and we have 25 times the
energy for a given sized cap.

But, 25*50 is just 1,250, and there are hardly any SS power amps worth
mentioning that have as little as twice that much capacitance in their PSs.
The QSC USA 400 that so many like to **** on has 6,600 uF. So, we're talking
between 2 and 5 times more energy storage, even in pro audio SS amps.

A good tube amp with a remote,
choke filtered supply keeping all AC except the signal
off the chassis is a very impressive thing. It does weigh
a lot (as though I care.)

Tubed amps are a different case because they have less feedback, and
therefore less power supply rejection.

There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that
provide balanced outputs may reduce ground loop related
hums, as well as provide a good lowering of the overall
noise floor.

Only an issue with poorly-designed equipment and systems.

Balanced power is used in most serious recording
facilities today.

There's that catch word, serious.

In fact, the NEC actually had to be
amended to permit 110V balanced power in commercial
faclilties. A simpler way to achieve this, is simply to
use the 220V balanced power already in most American
houses. It appears to be of great benefit, and requires
only that you buy only equipment suited to 220 V
operation. The safety issues with equipment designed for
unbalanced power are those also found when it is used
with 110V balanced power. The power switch and circuit
breaker should break both hot lines, which is usually
easy to do: alternatively wire the box to be on at all
times and use an external switch.

Balanced power is a band-aid. Some people need band-aids though.

[[email protected]]

Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing
my speaker cable and connects. I currently use 14 gauge zip cord and
gold plated Radio Shack interconnects. I have heard all the arguments
pro and con with the speaker cable vs zip cord. I don't wish to revive
that main discussion. I just have a few clarifying questions for the
skeptics out there.

First, supposing the incontrovertible: that for the average speaker
system, perceptible improvement ceases after a minimum of speaker cable
engineering. The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the price/performance curve
flattens to negligibility?

Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does your choice
align with what you advocate publically?

Rockinghorse Winner
===================================

By this time Mr. Rockinghorse Winner you must have sizable headache..
That is if you take at all seriously the usual Audio..Opinion jousting.


The warriors can be usefully divided into two groups. Those who believe
that they learnt everything that there is to be known about relations
between physical characteristics of audio components and the human
brain receptors in their graduate study
and those who trust their ears.

You heard already the mantras about "wire is wire" (based on what the
textbooks know about cables in the month of October 2006 and the
chorus singing the mantras about the bias of sighted listening..

It is of course true- in the medical drug studies between 25 to 40 % of
subjects claim improvement when "treated " with pseudo drug. In other
words SOME people are bias victims. But of course it could be you.

The truth is that nobody can tell how a particular wrinkle in the cable
structure will affect *you *. Your sensitivity to differences is
determined by your interests, experience, age , hearing etc. A virtuoso
may hear enormous differences between violins that would completely
escape me.

So what to do.?

I listen. If I'm in no doubt about my preference I don't consult the
textbooks or the list of specifications..

I use what I call the left-right comparison method.

If interested see the appendix. There are no switches or software to
buy.
But you need a helpful or a devoted partner
..
Ludovic Mirabel

My approach centers frankly on preference. Insisting on
"difference and difference only" may be a prerequisite in research. An
audiophile wants help to exercise his consumer choice.

Secondly, while roughly level volumes between the left and
right side are desirable. Very exact levelling is not necessary.

Other common sense precautions a compare like with like:
testing a 400watt amp against a 5watt SET is waste of time.
You can not compare signal source against signal source this
way ie. a cdplayer against a cdplayer, turntable against a turntable.
You cannot compare speakers because that requires special
facilities for moving them fast to an exact position . Same of course
applies to ABX testing.
You can compare interconnects, power cables and power
controllers, interconnects, preamps, amps, dacs.
An obliging partner is a necessity.

1) Get a monophonic or near monophonic (eg. centred soprano) signal
source. MUSICAL, not an artefact.

2) On the left insert one component, on the right the OTHER ONE- (in
the case of interconnects using two of one kind together i.e.source to
preamp and preamp to amp on each side will give better contrast.)

3) Listen -write down your preference, get blinded.

4) An assistant now changes AT RANDOM (coin throw) both components
from one side to the other or (of course) leaves them where they are
keeping the records.

5) This is repeated minimum 15 times- for any length of time and with
interval for lunch if you like. EVERY TIME you note your
preference
The repetition and change are the CRUX.

At this point INVARIABLY someone says: No good, room sides differ,
levels differ subtly etc.
Answer;If there are differences between room sides, speaker volumes
etc. and yet you still prefer and locate one of the two component as
it moves from side to side surely, that REINFORCES the results- yes?
no?
Eg. The bass may be distorted on one side of your room but you still
have a statistically significant positive result: "I prefer the sound
of this preamp on EITHER side.bass or no bass"

The other theoretical objections from the people who never tried it
are of little interest. The inferences from other fields (eg.
research) are even less so. Apples and oranges. Even if they assure you
that the

Goddess of their kind of "science" is fighting on their side.

The comparison is not just supposedly "instantaneous"- it is
SIMULTANEOUS.
While comparing turn your head from side to side as much as you like.

If you have no preference give the component back to the shop. If
there is any difference it is not one that matters to you
- at this stage of your musical experience and preference.

NB. This is not a universally applicable "test". It is a method
that suits me because it involves no memory feats that are beyond me
and many others. I have no universal "scientific" pretensions. I only
use it to reassure myself that I'm not a victim of delusionary bias.






--
















(nosey!)

[R. Stanton]

On Nov 17, 1:45 am, " wrote:
Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
I am about to upgrade my system, and I thought I'd start with replacing
my speaker cable and connects. I currently use 14 gauge zip cord and
gold plated Radio Shack interconnects. I have heard all the arguments
pro and con with the speaker cable vs zip cord. I don't wish to revive
that main discussion. I just have a few clarifying questions for the
skeptics out there.

First, supposing the incontrovertible: that for the average speaker
system, perceptible improvement ceases after a minimum of speaker cable
engineering. The question that comes to mind is, what are the minimum
requirements of a speaker cable before the price/performance curve
flattens to negligibility?

Second, what cable do YOU use for the purpose, and does your choice
align with what you advocate publically?

Rockinghorse Winner===================================

By this time Mr. Rockinghorse Winner you must have sizable headache..
That is if you take at all seriously the usual Audio..Opinion jousting.

The warriors can be usefully divided into two groups. Those who believe
that they learnt everything that there is to be known about relations
between physical characteristics of audio components and the human
brain receptors in their graduate study
and those who trust their ears.

You heard already the mantras about "wire is wire" (based on what the
textbooks know about cables in the month of October 2006 and the
chorus singing the mantras about the bias of sighted listening..

It is of course true- in the medical drug studies between 25 to 40 % of
subjects claim improvement when "treated " with pseudo drug. In other
words SOME people are bias victims. But of course it could be you.

The truth is that nobody can tell how a particular wrinkle in the cable
structure will affect *you *. Your sensitivity to differences is
determined by your interests, experience, age , hearing etc. A virtuoso
may hear enormous differences between violins that would completely
escape me.

So what to do.?

I listen. If I'm in no doubt about my preference I don't consult the
textbooks or the list of specifications..

I use what I call the left-right comparison method.

If interested see the appendix. There are no switches or software to
buy.
But you need a helpful or a devoted partner
.
Ludovic Mirabel

My approach centers frankly on preference. Insisting on
"difference and difference only" may be a prerequisite in research. An
audiophile wants help to exercise his consumer choice.

Secondly, while roughly level volumes between the left and
right side are desirable. Very exact levelling is not necessary.

Other common sense precautions a compare like with like:
testing a 400watt amp against a 5watt SET is waste of time.
You can not compare signal source against signal source this
way ie. a cdplayer against a cdplayer, turntable against a turntable.
You cannot compare speakers because that requires special
facilities for moving them fast to an exact position . Same of course
applies to ABX testing.
You can compare interconnects, power cables and power
controllers, interconnects, preamps, amps, dacs.
An obliging partner is a necessity.

1) Get a monophonic or near monophonic (eg. centred soprano) signal
source. MUSICAL, not an artefact.

2) On the left insert one component, on the right the OTHER ONE- (in
the case of interconnects using two of one kind together i.e.source to
preamp and preamp to amp on each side will give better contrast.)

3) Listen -write down your preference, get blinded.

4) An assistant now changes AT RANDOM (coin throw) both components
from one side to the other or (of course) leaves them where they are
keeping the records.

5) This is repeated minimum 15 times- for any length of time and with
interval for lunch if you like. EVERY TIME you note your
preference
The repetition and change are the CRUX.

At this point INVARIABLY someone says: No good, room sides differ,
levels differ subtly etc.
Answer;If there are differences between room sides, speaker volumes
etc. and yet you still prefer and locate one of the two component as
it moves from side to side surely, that REINFORCES the results- yes?
no?
Eg. The bass may be distorted on one side of your room but you still
have a statistically significant positive result: "I prefer the sound
of this preamp on EITHER side.bass or no bass"

The other theoretical objections from the people who never tried it
are of little interest. The inferences from other fields (eg.
research) are even less so. Apples and oranges. Even if they assure you
that the

Goddess of their kind of "science" is fighting on their side.

The comparison is not just supposedly "instantaneous"- it is
SIMULTANEOUS.
While comparing turn your head from side to side as much as you like.

If you have no preference give the component back to the shop. If
there is any difference it is not one that matters to you
- at this stage of your musical experience and preference.

NB. This is not a universally applicable "test". It is a method
that suits me because it involves no memory feats that are beyond me
and many others. I have no universal "scientific" pretensions. I only
use it to reassure myself that I'm not a victim of delusionary bias.



--

(nosey!)

I must write a few words in defence of "wire is wire".

Wire, let us say 20 ft of 12 gage speakercable, has a virtually flat
frequency response and zero distortion. That doesn't leave much room
for believing it colors sound.

Wire is only wire.

[Walt]

R. Stanton wrote:

I must write a few words in defence of "wire is wire".

Wire, let us say 20 ft of 12 gage speakercable, has a virtually flat
frequency response and zero distortion. That doesn't leave much room
for believing it colors sound.

It's flat up to about 100khz or so. Above that the self inductance and
the skin effect contribute to roll off. Some of the esoteric cables are
flat to well above 100khz. This is not important to me, but it appears
to be important to some.

Wire is only wire.

At audio frequencies, yes. At radio frequencies, the game changes.

//Walt

[R. Stanton]

On Nov 20, 10:33 am, Walt wrote:
R. Stanton wrote:

I must write a few words in defence of "wire is wire".

Wire, let us say 20 ft of 12 gage speakercable, has a virtually flat
frequency response and zero distortion. That doesn't leave much room
for believing it colors sound.It's flat up to about 100khz or so. Above that the self inductance and
the skin effect contribute to roll off. Some of the esoteric cables are
flat to well above 100khz. This is not important to me, but it appears
to be important to some.

Wire is only wire.At audio frequencies, yes. At radio frequencies, the game changes.

//Walt

The games changes again above radio frequencies. Microwaves are best
carried by solid aluminum channels, called wavequides. Than the game
changes again above microwave frequencies, where signals are carried by
fiberoptic strands. Above light frequencies, the game changes again.
X-rays.

Above X-rays the game changes again......... I think it is time to
stop. :-)

[Walt]

R. Stanton wrote:
On Nov 20, 10:33 am, Walt wrote:
R. Stanton wrote:


Wire is only wire.

At audio frequencies, yes. At radio frequencies, the game changes.

The games changes again above radio frequencies. Microwaves are best
carried by solid aluminum channels, called wavequides. Than the game
changes again above microwave frequencies, where signals are carried by
fiberoptic strands. Above light frequencies, the game changes again.
X-rays.

Above X-rays the game changes again......... I think it is time to
stop. :-)

What? Give up simply because the frequecies in question are inaudible?

Shirley you jest.

//Walt

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com

My approach centers frankly on preference. Insisting
on "difference and difference only" may be a prerequisite
in research. An audiophile wants help to exercise his
consumer choice.

Mirabel's methodology has zero safeguards against false positives.
Furthermore, it is likely to generate them.


Secondly, while roughly level volumes between the
left and right side are desirable. Very exact levelling is not
necessary.

Unmatched levels are an excellent way to obtain the perception of
differences, even when comparing the same piece of equipment to itself.

Other common sense precautions a compare like
with like: testing a 400watt amp against a 5watt SET is
waste of time.

Not necessarily, as long as you operate both within recommended operating
limits.

You can not compare signal source
against signal source this
way ie. a cdplayer against a cdplayer, turntable against
a turntable.

More nonsense. Mirabel may not be able to conceive of how to do these
comparisions, but that speaks to Mirabel's lack of ingenuity, not any actual
technical limitation.

Same of course applies to ABX testing.

An illogical comparison, because ABX testing is not highly susceptible to
obtaining false positives, as Mirabel's methodlogy is.

[George M. Middius]

Arnii Krooborg, shouldn't you be atoning for your sins today? Tomorrow
is church day, after all.

Mirabel's methodology has zero safeguards against false positives.

Oh no! Not false positives! Is that at all related to Normal liking the
way an amplifier makes his speakers sound?

More nonsense.

Nonsense, you say? Are you sure it's not ... LIES?!

ABX testing is not highly susceptible to obtaining false positives

Yer damn right it's not. God forbid anybody ever get a false positive
while hooked up to an aBxism torture box.

Serious question for you, Mr. Krooger: If somebody wanted to purchase an
aBxism switchbox, how would he go about it?





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[George M. Middius]

Arnii Krooborg, shouldn't you be atoning for your sins today? Tomorrow is
church day, after all.

Mirabel's methodology has zero safeguards against false positives.

Oh no! Not false positives! Is that at all related to a Normal liking the
way an amplifier makes his speakers sound?

More nonsense.

Nonsense, you say? Are you sure it's not ... LIES?!

ABX testing is not highly susceptible to obtaining false positives

Yer damn right it's not. God forbid anybody ever get a false positive
while hooked up to an aBxism torture box.

Serious question for you, Mr. Krooger: If somebody wanted to purchase an
aBxism switchbox, how would he go about it?





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.