[jakdedert]

None of the audio problems, it seems, that trashed the Grammies.

Really nice sounding....

jak

[Mike Rivers]

jakdedert wrote:
None of the audio problems, it seems, that trashed the Grammies.
Really nice sounding....

Obviouslyl e minor 9th has a different opinion. Maybe his local network
or cable company, maybe his ears. Nothing is as good as a live
performance, particularly once it hits a broadcast chain.

Was anyone there?

[[email protected]]

Clarity, or distortion was not the issue. vocals burried in the mix on
almost every song was.
Maybe it sounded good live, I am sure it sounded good in the in their
ear monitors.

What was being broadcast to millions of people, SUCKED.


Mike Rivers wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
None of the audio problems, it seems, that trashed the Grammies.
Really nice sounding....

Obviouslyl e minor 9th has a different opinion. Maybe his local network
or cable company, maybe his ears. Nothing is as good as a live
performance, particularly once it hits a broadcast chain.

Was anyone there?

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
Clarity, or distortion was not the issue. vocals burried in the mix on
almost every song was.
Maybe it sounded good live, I am sure it sounded good in the in their
ear monitors.

What was being broadcast to millions of people, SUCKED.

Dunno. Clearly what was being broadcast to _you_ sucked. The problem
is that so many folks are listening on different services with different
processing chains.

And so many local cable TV services don't give a damn about sound quality.
I won't even TALK about what the satellite TV guys do.

There have been times when I have seen my mix go out that distribution
amplifier into the cold outside world and been horrified when I heard
what came back....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Clarity, or distortion was not the issue. vocals burried in the mix on
almost every song was.
Maybe it sounded good live, I am sure it sounded good in the in their
ear monitors.

What was being broadcast to millions of people, SUCKED.

Dunno. Clearly what was being broadcast to _you_ sucked. The problem
is that so many folks are listening on different services with different
processing chains.

And so many local cable TV services don't give a damn about sound quality.
I won't even TALK about what the satellite TV guys do.

There have been times when I have seen my mix go out that distribution
amplifier into the cold outside world and been horrified when I heard
what came back....
--scott

That makes a good point for having a 10 foot C band and KU band dish to
get the direct feeds, before the locals manage to mess things up. Up
until a few years back when I moved, I had such an animal, and the
network feeds that weren't digital were top notch quality. Watch them
after your local cable company has digitized, stored, and played back at
the maximum compression and then....yuch.
Bill Baka

[Romeo Rondeau]

And so many local cable TV services don't give a damn about sound quality.
I won't even TALK about what the satellite TV guys do.

There have been times when I have seen my mix go out that distribution
amplifier into the cold outside world and been horrified when I heard
what came back....
--scott

Especially when they use those "stereo enhancer" thingys. Vocals get
lost pretty quick, along with kick and bass guitar.

[Bill]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

And so many local cable TV services don't give a damn about sound
quality.
I won't even TALK about what the satellite TV guys do.

There have been times when I have seen my mix go out that distribution
amplifier into the cold outside world and been horrified when I heard
what came back....
--scott

Especially when they use those "stereo enhancer" thingys. Vocals get
lost pretty quick, along with kick and bass guitar.

I think it's the digital compression freaks trying to get 900 channels
on the cable and way over compressing both the video and the audio. When
I watch a show on television that has been digitized and the action
stuff almost always get pixelated and the sound comes out in blurts. So
much for digital making a 'better' experience. As long as greed rules
the broadcasters and they want to give you 900 channels it will ruin the
HDTV and audio experience both. Quality compression might give 200
channels but not 900. Marketing hype ruins a lot of good ideas.
Bill Baka

[Mark]

I think it's the digital compression freaks trying to get 900 channels
on the cable and way over compressing both the video and the audio. When
I watch a show on television that has been digitized and the action
stuff almost always get pixelated and the sound comes out in blurts. So
much for digital making a 'better' experience. As long as greed rules
the broadcasters and they want to give you 900 channels it will ruin the
HDTV and audio experience both. Quality compression might give 200
channels but not 900. Marketing hype ruins a lot of good ideas.
Bill Baka

I've seen plenty of video artifacts due to digital bit rate compression
but I have NEVER heard audio artifacts due to digital bit rate
compression on commercial TV...the bit rates assigned for audio are
pretty high.

sure....I have heard too much dynamic range compression squashing
everything all the time everywhere but that has nothing to do with
digital bit rate compression. You know that of course... Unfortunatly
the two completly different phenomenon both use the term "compression"

Mark


Mark

[[email protected]]

I have Comcast. I compared the HD with the regular broadcast and it was
the same issue. Vocals being squashed to a flat line. I don't have such
an issue with that as with someone's judgement that a rhythm guitar
should be louder in ratio to the mix than the lead vocal. Whomever
mixed Martina McBride had it right, she could be heard over the music.
Almost all the rest of the acts suffered from vocals mixed way too low.

I would be interested to hear from some other people that actually
viewed/heard the show rather than conjecture.

I guess others thought it was pretty great, but I stand by my opinion.
It sucked.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:
I have Comcast. I compared the HD with the regular broadcast and it was
the same issue. Vocals being squashed to a flat line.

Martina McBride had it right, she could be heard over the music.
Almost all the rest of the acts suffered from vocals mixed way too low.

You're describing two different problems. Vocals squashed flat is
pretty common today, in case you haven't noticed. It's the easy way to
make sure that the vocal can be pushed up over the level of the rest of
the band when all hell breaks loose.

Apparently what you heard was just a poor mix of the band, with the
vocal not high enough. If the whole mix went through a heavy limiter
(as it might anywhere in the broadcast chain) the band could have been
brought up to near the level of the vocal, destroying whatever the
original mix was. And the people who set up those limiters don't listen
to what they're doing, they just watch the meters to assure that they
don't overmodulate.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark wrote:

I've seen plenty of video artifacts due to digital bit rate compression
but I have NEVER heard audio artifacts due to digital bit rate
compression on commercial TV...the bit rates assigned for audio are
pretty high.

The audio isn't abused quite so badly as the video sometimes, but give a
listen to a typical DBS feed on good speakers. You'll hear all kinds of
weird swishing and clanging stuff going on.

sure....I have heard too much dynamic range compression squashing
everything all the time everywhere but that has nothing to do with
digital bit rate compression. You know that of course... Unfortunatly
the two completly different phenomenon both use the term "compression"

I agree that the choice of wording is unfortunate but I think we are
stuck with it now.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
I have Comcast. I compared the HD with the regular broadcast and
it was the same issue. Vocals being squashed to a flat line.
Martina McBride had it right, she could be heard over the music.
Almost all the rest of the acts suffered from vocals mixed way
too low.
Apparently what you heard was just a poor mix of the band, with the
vocal not high enough. If the whole mix went through a heavy limiter
(as it might anywhere in the broadcast chain) the band could have
been brought up to near the level of the vocal, destroying whatever
the original mix was. And the people who set up those limiters
don't listen to what they're doing, they just watch the meters to
assure that they don't overmodulate.

OF course they don't!!! After all, it's only audio. Why
should we have to actually (listen) to it? PEople don't
actually expect to listen to these things do they? IT's all
about having the volume down with plenty of shots of low cut
dresses and tight jeans now. who cares about the friggin'
audio?
Beyond this: THe sheep still flock to it in droves and pay
big money. Feed 'em more **** they'll keep on coming back
for more. AS long as we use words like "digital" and "high
definition" in the ad copy they'll tell you it's the
greatest thing since sliced bread.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Loren Amelang]

On 7 Nov 2006 20:03:45 -0800, wrote:

I have Comcast. I compared the HD with the regular broadcast and it was
the same issue. Vocals being squashed to a flat line. I don't have such
an issue with that as with someone's judgement that a rhythm guitar
should be louder in ratio to the mix than the lead vocal. Whomever
mixed Martina McBride had it right, she could be heard over the music.
Almost all the rest of the acts suffered from vocals mixed way too low.

I would be interested to hear from some other people that actually
viewed/heard the show rather than conjecture.

DirecTV, New York "national feed", antique Sony SAT-B2 receiver
(chosen and kept because it sounds better than most modern
cheapened-down boxes). Oddly, the LA feed was less crisp this time;
usually it is the better of the two.

I agree Martina's performance started out very nicely balanced. At
about 0:57, right after she let loose with "God..." in the chorus,
somebody or something "adjusted" the mix - so dramatically my first
thought was that I'd lost a channel. I suspect a slow acting limiter
on her vocal, because the same effect happens at 2:06 and 3:19. One
gloriously loud clear word and then she fades behind the orchestra
that isn't affected.

The overall envelope had unusually good dynamic range, so I don't
think the distribution chain could be blamed. I thought the CMAs had
better-balanced audio than most such shows in the last few years,
which I've come to suspect are mixed for 5.1 and distributed (at least
to me) with only LF and RF, the center channel info dropped
completely. Talk about vocals disappearing...

Loren

[Lorin David Schultz]

Mike Rivers wrote:

[...] the people who set up those limiters don't listen to what
they're doing, they just watch the meters to assure that they don't
overmodulate.



Or wiggle.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

[[email protected]]

On 2006-11-10 said:
Mike Rivers wrote:
[...] the people who set up those limiters don't listen to what
they're doing, they just watch the meters to assure that they
don't overmodulate.
Or wiggle.
True, and this is why I wonder about folks who don't take
rOy's approach as described here a couple days ago. THe
idea is to mix a bit more conservatively so as to avoid
having anything for those limiters to grab in the first
place. IT's been my standard approach for anything which is
going to go to a broadcast chain for years.
YOur mix gets preserved pretty much as you sent it down the
pipe this way, and the limiters and crunchers have nothing
to act upon.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Bill]

wrote:

Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

Have you ever noticed that the average teenager is immune to distortion
as long as they can have the volume up full blast? With those earplugs
we are going to have a lot of early deaf people. My granddaughter tried
to show me what she was listening to by plugging her earplugs into my
ear and I recoiled in pain.
Progress???
Bill Baka

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill bbaka@c-o-m-c-a-s-t-dot-n-e-t wrote:
Have you ever noticed that the average teenager is immune to distortion
as long as they can have the volume up full blast? With those earplugs
we are going to have a lot of early deaf people. My granddaughter tried
to show me what she was listening to by plugging her earplugs into my
ear and I recoiled in pain.

I have worked with a huge number of PA operators who have no ability to
judge level, except by distortion. They bring the system up to the point
where it's starting to clip, and leave it there.

Give them a system that has huge amounts of headroom and they use it all
up. The end result is the same bad sound, just louder.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2006-11-11 said:
Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.
Have you ever noticed that the average teenager is immune to
distortion as long as they can have the volume up full blast? With
those earplugs we are going to have a lot of early deaf people. My
granddaughter tried to show me what she was listening to by
plugging her earplugs into my ear and I recoiled in pain.
Progress???
NOted the same thing myself, with my daughters back in the
'80's, my step grandkids and my grandson.

Did enough damage to myself back in the '60's and '70's with
headphones before I really learned what it was all about,
but thank the good Lord I learned while I can still hear.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel when it's not.

[Bill]

wrote:
On 2006-11-11 said:
Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.
Have you ever noticed that the average teenager is immune to
distortion as long as they can have the volume up full blast? With
those earplugs we are going to have a lot of early deaf people. My
granddaughter tried to show me what she was listening to by
plugging her earplugs into my ear and I recoiled in pain.
Progress???
NOted the same thing myself, with my daughters back in the
'80's, my step grandkids and my grandson.

Did enough damage to myself back in the '60's and '70's with
headphones before I really learned what it was all about,
but thank the good Lord I learned while I can still hear.

It was Disco's in the 70's that turned me away. My love life suffered
since I absolutely would not dance in front of those way too loud live
bands. Even at the far end it was hard to hear while playing pool and
trying to score with a certain waitress who looked like Farrah's little
sister. 58 and the ears still work fine.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel when it's not.

Heh,
Yeah, I accidentally unspooled one on my floor due to a recorder
malfunction and, umm, wow, what a mess. Worse yet it was a new tape.
Bill Baka

[Lorin David Schultz]

Bill wrote:

Yeah, I accidentally unspooled one on my floor due to a recorder
malfunction and, umm, wow, what a mess. Worse yet it was a new tape.



The fact that it was a new tape wasn't a "worse yet", it was a "Thank
goodness." Imagine if that tape had critical material on it!

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good