Ok, here's my first barage.

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer are
completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer for YOU is
to put it in your room.(*)

The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other component, are
most subject to the effects of the room they are on.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and the
placement of the subwoofer in the room. Only a small amount of the quality
of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with the subwoofer itself.

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for the
"best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that subwoofer will
work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in the world, can sound
like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong room. An "average"
subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars less, which matches the
room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys of spiritual and physical
ecstasy.

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.

(*) There are other ways to evaluate the sound of a room, and the match of a
speaker in it, but this involves tools usually reserved for architectural
acousticians, and implies that you have an accurate model of your room, as
well as an accurate model of the subwoofer being considered, which except
for professional speakers, is a rare thing indeed.

Erik Squires wrote:


Ok, here's my first barage.

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer are
completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer for YOU is
to put it in your room.(*)

The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other component, are
most subject to the effects of the room they are on.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and the
placement of the subwoofer in the room. Only a small amount of the quality
of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with the subwoofer itself.

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for the
"best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that subwoofer will
work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in the world, can sound
like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong room. An "average"
subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars less, which matches the
room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys of spiritual and physical
ecstasy.

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.

(*) There are other ways to evaluate the sound of a room, and the match of a
speaker in it, but this involves tools usually reserved for architectural
acousticians, and implies that you have an accurate model of your room, as
well as an accurate model of the subwoofer being considered, which except
for professional speakers, is a rare thing indeed.










I would agree with you that there is absolutrely no substitute for auditioning
a subwoofer in your own listening room before plunking down any dollars. I
would also agree with you that there is no necessary positive correlation
between the cost of the sub and its performance. Having said all that,
however, I would not want to dismiss manufacturer (or reviewer) specs out of
hand, inasmuch as they can, if nothing else, serve as a guide, at least,
for steering people in a direction that might produce choices worth
auditioning.
For example, knowing a sub's "alleged" lower & upper limits can be useful in
deciding how such a response range *might* usefully integrate with your main
speakers. Also, whether the crossover should be high-order, as you suggest, or
one of the more common 6 or 12 db slopes, would, IMHO, depend on whether you
intend to use the sub to "take strain off" the lower end of your main system or
as it least two respected manufacturers maintain (REL & Vandersteen) to provide
more of an augmentation and/or addition to the lower end of the main speakers.
IOW, there would appear to be a number of options out there, as you correctly
suggest, and for my .02 worth, preliminary consideration of specs & price
should precede, but not exclude, a personal audition whenever this is feasible.





Bruce J. Richman

Bruce J. Richman wrote:
Erik Squires wrote:



Ok, here's my first barage.

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer are
completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer for YOU is
to put it in your room.(*)

The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other component, are
most subject to the effects of the room they are on.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and the
placement of the subwoofer in the room. Only a small amount of the quality
of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with the subwoofer itself.

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for the
"best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that subwoofer will
work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in the world, can sound
like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong room. An "average"
subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars less, which matches the
room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys of spiritual and physical
ecstasy.

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.

(*) There are other ways to evaluate the sound of a room, and the match of a
speaker in it, but this involves tools usually reserved for architectural
acousticians, and implies that you have an accurate model of your room, as
well as an accurate model of the subwoofer being considered, which except
for professional speakers, is a rare thing indeed.











I would agree with you that there is absolutrely no substitute for auditioning
a subwoofer in your own listening room before plunking down any dollars. I
would also agree with you that there is no necessary positive correlation
between the cost of the sub and its performance. Having said all that,
however, I would not want to dismiss manufacturer (or reviewer) specs out of
hand, inasmuch as they can, if nothing else, serve as a guide, at least,
for steering people in a direction that might produce choices worth
auditioning.
For example, knowing a sub's "alleged" lower & upper limits can be useful in
deciding how such a response range *might* usefully integrate with your main
speakers. Also, whether the crossover should be high-order, as you suggest, or
one of the more common 6 or 12 db slopes, would, IMHO, depend on whether you
intend to use the sub to "take strain off" the lower end of your main system or
as it least two respected manufacturers maintain (REL & Vandersteen) to provide
more of an augmentation and/or addition to the lower end of the main speakers.
IOW, there would appear to be a number of options out there, as you correctly
suggest, and for my .02 worth, preliminary consideration of specs & price
should precede, but not exclude, a personal audition whenever this is feasible.





Bruce J. Richman




When I bought my sub, I started out by buying a cheap but powerful 15"
system. It was pretty good sounding and it gave me some understanding of
what I might be able to expect. Next I auditioned a pricey model in my
room for a couple of days. What I decided I needed was another of the
first unit I bought so I could operate at a lower power level and a
higher cross-over. I love the sound now using two subs.

I really think a lot of the fun of this hobby is discovering and playing
with the equipment. That is not to say music isn't important. I just
consider that the be a separate hobby. If you can have fun and enjoy the
toys, why not..

Carl
]]Test Post[[

"Erik Squires" wrote in message
vers.com...
Ok, here's my first barage.

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer are
completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer for YOU
is
to put it in your room.(*)


That's true for any speaker, however if the manufacturer gives honest spect
or you have a review that has properly evaluated the sub, it can be very
useful.

The fact is as Tom Nousaine has discovered there is really one best place in
most rooms for a subwoofer to go, in the corner.

Companies that don't give youspecs on how loud the sub will play the lowest
frequencies are to be avoided IMO.

Those like Adire who give you the Dumax specs are giving you really usable
information.

My own 12" driver I purchased through them has lived up to it's specs and
the box design info they provide. They also have finished subs that use the
same drivers and I would recomend them in a heartbeat.

The problem affecting most people in their rooms is that there is usually a
big bum in response around 50 Hz or so that has to be dealt with one way or
another. Having separate low and high pass adjustability or some sort of
EQ, either passive or active, will ususally do the trick.



The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other component, are
most subject to the effects of the room they are on.


No more than full range speakers IME.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and the
placement of the subwoofer in the room. Only a small amount of the
quality
of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with the subwoofer
itself.

And you base this conclusion on what?

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for the
"best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that subwoofer will
work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in the world, can sound
like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong room. An "average"
subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars less, which matches the
room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys of spiritual and physical
ecstasy.

Which is why you don't buy things like that without the ability to audition
themn in your room.

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th
order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.


Some people care more and will explore the proper set up and specs to
achieve their own audio heaven some, probable most won't, unless they have
some direction from the manufacturer.

I'd be interested in what shape and size rooms you beleive affect the sound
of a sub in the way you describe. What room would cut off the bass at 40
HZ?

(*) There are other ways to evaluate the sound of a room, and the match of
a
speaker in it, but this involves tools usually reserved for architectural
acousticians, and implies that you have an accurate model of your room, as
well as an accurate model of the subwoofer being considered, which except
for professional speakers, is a rare thing indeed.

There are ways and means to adjust for best response that can be
accomplished without hireing a professional, but it takes some research or
explanation by the manufacturer.

Heck! - specs don't matter with most components, aside from electronic
crossovers.

"Erik Squires" wrote in message
vers.com...
Ok, here's my first barage.

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer are
completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer for YOU
is
to put it in your room.(*)

The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other component, are
most subject to the effects of the room they are on.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and the
placement of the subwoofer in the room. Only a small amount of the
quality
of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with the subwoofer
itself.

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for the
"best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that subwoofer will
work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in the world, can sound
like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong room. An "average"
subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars less, which matches the
room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys of spiritual and physical
ecstasy.

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th
order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.

(*) There are other ways to evaluate the sound of a room, and the match of
a
speaker in it, but this involves tools usually reserved for architectural
acousticians, and implies that you have an accurate model of your room, as
well as an accurate model of the subwoofer being considered, which except
for professional speakers, is a rare thing indeed.

Erik Squires wrote:

People who buy subwoofers purely on spec, or reviews of the subwoofer
are completely screwed. The only simple way to evaluate a subwoofer
for YOU is to put it in your room.(*)

So far, so good.

The reason for this is that subwoofers, more than any other
component, are most subject to the effects of the room they are on.

That seems to be a pretty wild assertion as applying to just subwoofers.. In
fact any speaker is profoundly affected by the room it is in.

75% of the sound of a subwoofer is really the sound of your room and
the placement of the subwoofer in the room.

The 75% number appears to be something that somebody just made up.

Only a small amount of
the quality of the perceived sound with a subwoofer has to do with
the subwoofer itself.

That seems to be a pretty wild assertion as applying to just subwoofers.. In
fact any speaker is profoundly affected by the room it is in.

One of the worst mistakes that consumers make, IMHO, is to look for
the "best" subwoofer they can afford, without knowing how that
subwoofer will work in their room. That is, the "best" subwoofer in
the world, can sound like bird poop hitting a car roof in the wrong
room. An "average" subwoofer, hundreds if not thousands of dollars
less, which matches the room, can evoke the fear of God and the joys
of spiritual and physical ecstasy.

The biggest problem I see with this post relates to the course of action one
is supposed to take once a loudspeaker is brought into the room. This post
does not discuss the fact that the sound from a loudspeaker can be tailored
for a room by means of placement, orientation, changes to room acoustics,
crossovers and equalizers. It seems to suggest that a listener would cycle a
large number of subwoofers through a listening room, installing each one
naively and blindly as possible in just one location with just one
orientation, crossover setting, etc., until the right subwoofer was somehow
found.

Speakers need to be matched to a room, but its not like matching dress shoes
to a purse. It's an interactive process. A wide range of speakers can be
made to sound good in a given room if suitable adjustments are made.

Carl wrote:

.....snips.....

A room with very pronounced 20 Hz resonances due to room dimensions really
would benefit from a smaller sub, one with a cut off at 40 Hz and 4th order
high pass response there, allowing the user to hear ALL of the bass, from
the satellite speakers on down, not just the room resonances. But in this
SUV world, no one really wants to hear that. More more more, that's what
we want, to reach perfection via the credit card instead of self
exploration, or self knowledge. When we can purchase another 0.01% lower
distortion figure. then we know we are on the path of virtue and truth.
Bleah.

A room with pronounced 20 Hz "resonances" would have to have at least one
dimension on the order of 28 feet for a 1st mode excitation. Hallway or a very
large room? Either way a larger subwoofer would be more likely to provide
satisfactory performance.