[Jenn]

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.

[MiNe 109]

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5374808.stm

http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/38.htm

Probably most famous for audiophiles for his sets of Dances (English
Dances, Cornish Dances, etc) based on folk-tunes. The composer recorded
these for Lyrita, conducting the LPO.

Also known for his film scores, including "The Bridge on the River Kwai"
(no, he didn't compose "Colonel Bogey").

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5374808.stm

http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/38.htm

Probably most famous for audiophiles for his sets of Dances (English
Dances, Cornish Dances, etc) based on folk-tunes. The composer recorded
these for Lyrita, conducting the LPO.

Yep; wonderful recording.


Also known for his film scores, including "The Bridge on the River Kwai"
(no, he didn't compose "Colonel Bogey").

Right. That was the great Kenneth Alford.

[paul packer]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams. Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Yes?

[Jenn]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

I'm not a huge fan either. I do like Tam O'Shanter, the Dances, and
spots in the symphonies.


In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as indicated
by his harmonic language. Same with Holst.

Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial, Facade,
etc.

[John Atkinson]

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial,
Facade, etc

Never found the depths I expected there (might be me, of course). But
you guys are all forgetting Benjamin Britten!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Jenn]

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Of course!


Same with Holst.

Well...

Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial,
Facade, etc

Never found the depths I expected there (might be me, of course). But
you guys are all forgetting Benjamin Britten!

Yep, perhaps the greatest of all British composers, IMHO. And he love
my guy, Percy Grainger. Well, he LOVED Peter Pears, but you know what I
mean ;-)


John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[MiNe 109]

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial,
Facade, etc

Never found the depths I expected there (might be me, of course). But
you guys are all forgetting Benjamin Britten!

The greatest in the opera house, surely.

Stephen

[Eeyore]

MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

Graham

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

Stephen

[Eeyore]

MiNe 109 wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

That's not what I call 'folk' no matter how good it may be. Anything orchestral
is quite another matter to my mind.

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century.

Interesting! I think of them as decidedly 19th century! I'm
re-studying his Folk Song Suite now for performances in March, btw.
Such great songs: Seventeen Come Sunday, My Bonnie Boy, etc.

In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

In some of this things, I would agree.


Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial,
Facade, etc

Never found the depths I expected there (might be me, of course). But
you guys are all forgetting Benjamin Britten!

The greatest in the opera house, surely.

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

Graham

You might be surprised to learn that folk music goes further back than
Ms. Denny.

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

Graham

You might be surprised to learn that folk music goes further back than
Ms. Denny.

It wouldn't surprise me one iota !

One of the pubs round here actually has a 'traditional music' evening every
Thursday which I've been known to attend.

Your point was ?

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

Graham

You might be surprised to learn that folk music goes further back than
Ms. Denny.

It wouldn't surprise me one iota !

One of the pubs round here actually has a 'traditional music' evening every
Thursday which I've been known to attend.

Your point was ?

Graham

We're speaking here of settings of much older British folk song material.

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

That's not what I call 'folk' no matter how good it may be. Anything
orchestral
is quite another matter to my mind.

Graham

No one is calling what the above mentioned composers did "folk music".
Those composers used vernacular folk tunes either in arrangement or as
influence in their art music opuses.

[paul packer]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:48:38 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

I'm not a huge fan either. I do like Tam O'Shanter, the Dances, and
spots in the symphonies.

That's about as far as I go too. And even with the Dances I felt he
could have done more. Occasionally an interesting film Main Title,
like "The Roots Of Heaven," but more often dreary and repetitive.

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as indicated
by his harmonic language. Same with Holst.

Yikes! You think of RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies as 19th century in
idiom? That's very progressive 19th century. Even the 8th and 9th are
quite modern, not to mention the percussive Piano Concerto. As for
Holst, surely "Mars" from "The Planets" is hardly 19th century. No,
I'm very much a 20th century tonal man, and I find RVW totally of that
century. And that's of course not to mention his film music. Have a
listen to, say, the suite from "Coastal Command."

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

That's not what I call 'folk' no matter how good it may be. Anything
orchestral is quite another matter to my mind.

Graham

No one is calling what the above mentioned composers did "folk music".
Those composers used vernacular folk tunes either in arrangement or as
influence in their art music opuses.

Do you have any preference ? For 'folk' or 'folk inspired' orchestral ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

Graham

You might be surprised to learn that folk music goes further back than
Ms. Denny.

It wouldn't surprise me one iota !

One of the pubs round here actually has a 'traditional music' evening every
Thursday which I've been known to attend.

Your point was ?

Graham

We're speaking here of settings of much older British folk song material.

I'm not at all clear what you mean.

Graham

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

That's not what I call 'folk' no matter how good it may be. Anything
orchestral is quite another matter to my mind.

It doesn't matter what you call it, and I am not referring specifically
to orchestral music or to arrangements of folk tunes. It's a long way
from a folk tune to a Bartok string quartet.

Stephen

[MiNe 109]

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century.

Interesting! I think of them as decidedly 19th century! I'm
re-studying his Folk Song Suite now for performances in March, btw.
Such great songs: Seventeen Come Sunday, My Bonnie Boy, etc.

Tune w/new arrangement is probably as ancient as music itself! I'm
thinking more of the how folk modes show a way to escape the inevitable
ti-do of functional harmony. Collecting (and recording) folk tunes is
also very much a modern activity.

I finally learned the name of the 'other tune' from V-W's
"Greensleeves," "Lovely Joan."

Stephen

[Jenn]

paul packer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:48:38 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

I'm not a huge fan either. I do like Tam O'Shanter, the Dances, and
spots in the symphonies.

That's about as far as I go too. And even with the Dances I felt he
could have done more. Occasionally an interesting film Main Title,
like "The Roots Of Heaven," but more often dreary and repetitive.

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as indicated
by his harmonic language. Same with Holst.

Yikes! You think of RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies as 19th century in
idiom? That's very progressive 19th century.

As Mahler's first two symphonies are very progressive 19th century ;-)

Even the 8th and 9th are
quite modern, not to mention the percussive Piano Concerto. As for
Holst, surely "Mars" from "The Planets" is hardly 19th century. No,
I'm very much a 20th century tonal man, and I find RVW totally of that
century.

I see him as sort of a "bridge". I hear the songs, folksong settings,
Folk Song Suite, Linden Lea, Greensleeves Fantasia, etc. as decidedly
19th century.

[Jenn]

Eeyore wrote:
Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
MiNe 109 wrote:

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century. In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

Folk ?

Sandy Denny.

I like Sandy Denny, but I'm thinking more of V-W, Grainger, Bartok,
Kodaly, Stravinsky, Granados, etc, using folk tunes as a basis for new
approaches to tonality.

That's not what I call 'folk' no matter how good it may be. Anything
orchestral is quite another matter to my mind.

Graham

No one is calling what the above mentioned composers did "folk music".
Those composers used vernacular folk tunes either in arrangement or as
influence in their art music opuses.

Do you have any preference ? For 'folk' or 'folk inspired' orchestral ?

Graham

It depends on the day, frankly. My heart is geared toward and I make
my living doing both.

[Jenn]

MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century.

Interesting! I think of them as decidedly 19th century! I'm
re-studying his Folk Song Suite now for performances in March, btw.
Such great songs: Seventeen Come Sunday, My Bonnie Boy, etc.

Tune w/new arrangement is probably as ancient as music itself! I'm
thinking more of the how folk modes show a way to escape the inevitable
ti-do of functional harmony. Collecting (and recording) folk tunes is
also very much a modern activity.

Indeed. Percy Grainger was probably the first to do both.


I finally learned the name of the 'other tune' from V-W's
"Greensleeves," "Lovely Joan."

It's a neat tune, isn't it?
BTW, and as you probably know, the final movement of the Holst F Suite
for Band was, AFAIK, the first appearance of Greensleeves in a
symphonic work, barely predating RVW's opera "Sir John in Love".

[MiNe 109]

In article .com,
"Jenn" wrote:

MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century.

Interesting! I think of them as decidedly 19th century! I'm
re-studying his Folk Song Suite now for performances in March, btw.
Such great songs: Seventeen Come Sunday, My Bonnie Boy, etc.

Tune w/new arrangement is probably as ancient as music itself! I'm
thinking more of the how folk modes show a way to escape the inevitable
ti-do of functional harmony. Collecting (and recording) folk tunes is
also very much a modern activity.

Indeed. Percy Grainger was probably the first to do both.

His transcriptions of folk performances are cool, too. Bartok is the
other famous collector everyone should know about.

I finally learned the name of the 'other tune' from V-W's
"Greensleeves," "Lovely Joan."

It's a neat tune, isn't it?
BTW, and as you probably know, the final movement of the Holst F Suite
for Band was, AFAIK, the first appearance of Greensleeves in a
symphonic work, barely predating RVW's opera "Sir John in Love".

I would have guessed the "Oriental" tune in Busoni's Turandot Suite.

I need to know more about "Sir John" beyond it being a 'folk-song' opera.

Stephen

[paul packer]

On 24 Sep 2006 11:55:45 -0700, "Jenn"
wrote:


paul packer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:48:38 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

I'm not a huge fan either. I do like Tam O'Shanter, the Dances, and
spots in the symphonies.

That's about as far as I go too. And even with the Dances I felt he
could have done more. Occasionally an interesting film Main Title,
like "The Roots Of Heaven," but more often dreary and repetitive.

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as indicated
by his harmonic language. Same with Holst.

Yikes! You think of RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies as 19th century in
idiom? That's very progressive 19th century.

As Mahler's first two symphonies are very progressive 19th century ;-)

Don't care for Mahler but have heard enough to know that none of his
music sounds to me as distinctly 20th century as RVW. The only work I
would own as having 19th century origins is the Sea Symphony.

Even the 8th and 9th are
quite modern, not to mention the percussive Piano Concerto. As for
Holst, surely "Mars" from "The Planets" is hardly 19th century. No,
I'm very much a 20th century tonal man, and I find RVW totally of that
century.

I see him as sort of a "bridge". I hear the songs, folksong settings,
Folk Song Suite, Linden Lea, Greensleeves Fantasia, etc. as decidedly
19th century.


Disagree. They may be pastoral in style, or folksong in origin, but
that doesn't make them 19th century. I have little interest in 19th
century music, but RVW is my favourite composer.

[Joe Duffy]

In article ,
paul packer wrote:

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams. Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.


Although cliche, it's hard to touch Williams.
Walton is definitely up there.
Nonetheless, may Arnold rest in peace.




Joe

[George M. Middius]

Joe Duffy said:

Nonetheless, may Arnold rest in peace.

I never thought you'd sad that, Doof.





--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[Jenn]

In article ,
(Joe Duffy) wrote:

In article ,
paul packer wrote:

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams. Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.


Although cliche, it's hard to touch Williams.
Walton is definitely up there.
Nonetheless, may Arnold rest in peace.




Joe


Just a small "nit": His last name is Vaughan Williams (Vaughan isn't
his middle name.) ;-)

[Jenn]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On 24 Sep 2006 11:55:45 -0700, "Jenn"
wrote:


paul packer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:48:38 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:21:44 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Malcolm Arnold 1921-2006
Thought by many to be Britain's best 20th century composer.


Not by me, unfortunately. I detested his film music and wasn't much
more enamoured of his "classical" stuff. Sorry to speak ill of the
dead, but I didn't like the man's music at all.

I'm not a huge fan either. I do like Tam O'Shanter, the Dances, and
spots in the symphonies.

That's about as far as I go too. And even with the Dances I felt he
could have done more. Occasionally an interesting film Main Title,
like "The Roots Of Heaven," but more often dreary and repetitive.

In any case Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as indicated
by his harmonic language. Same with Holst.

Yikes! You think of RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies as 19th century in
idiom? That's very progressive 19th century.

As Mahler's first two symphonies are very progressive 19th century ;-)

Don't care for Mahler but have heard enough to know that none of his
music sounds to me as distinctly 20th century as RVW. The only work I
would own as having 19th century origins is the Sea Symphony.

Even the 8th and 9th are
quite modern, not to mention the percussive Piano Concerto. As for
Holst, surely "Mars" from "The Planets" is hardly 19th century. No,
I'm very much a 20th century tonal man, and I find RVW totally of that
century.

I see him as sort of a "bridge". I hear the songs, folksong settings,
Folk Song Suite, Linden Lea, Greensleeves Fantasia, etc. as decidedly
19th century.


Disagree. They may be pastoral in style, or folksong in origin, but
that doesn't make them 19th century. I have little interest in 19th
century music, but RVW is my favourite composer.

Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

[[email protected]]

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
"John Atkinson" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:
Britain's best 20th century composer was of course Vaughan
Williams.

I LOVE RVW, but I think of him as a 19th century composer, as
indicated by his harmonic language.

Yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Same with Holst.

Well...

I think of the various folk music influences as 20th century.

Interesting! I think of them as decidedly 19th century! I'm
re-studying his Folk Song Suite now for performances in March, btw.
Such great songs: Seventeen Come Sunday, My Bonnie Boy, etc.

In some
ways V-W's modalities are more modern than the chromaticism of, say,
Strauss.

In some of this things, I would agree.


Followed possibly by Walton. And then another couple of
dozen before you get to Arnold.

I agree with you about Walton. Love his stuff: Crown Imperial,
Facade, etc

Never found the depths I expected there (might be me, of course). But
you guys are all forgetting Benjamin Britten!

The greatest in the opera house, surely.

Stephen
==============================

I'll repeat a very simplistic criticism of Vaughan.Williams that I
heard in England many years ago: "You're waiting for him to finally get
somewhere and he never does"
Somehow when I listen to his symphonies I can never get it out of my
mind.
Ludovic M.

[MiNe 109]

In article . com,
" wrote:

I'll repeat a very simplistic criticism of Vaughan.Williams that I
heard in England many years ago: "You're waiting for him to finally get
somewhere and he never does"
Somehow when I listen to his symphonies I can never get it out of my
mind.

Scott never made it home, did he?

I haven't listened to his symphonies in a long time, and the local
choruses have done his double choir mass way too often, but I enjoy the
craft in his church music and folk-song fantasies.

Stephen

[paul packer]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia, and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century. I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia, and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century. I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

I doubt Jenn has too narrow an experience of RVW, but I agree insofar as
his modernity is obscured by his relative lack of chromatic harmony in
certain works.

Stephen

[paul packer]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:31:26 GMT, MiNe 109
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia, and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century. I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

I doubt Jenn has too narrow an experience of RVW,

I'm not convinced, Jenn's rather vague replies suggest that her
knowledge of RVW's harsher works is far from "note perfect". I'd like
to ask her, for one, what she makes of the Piano Concerto.

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:31:26 GMT, MiNe 109
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia, and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century. I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

I doubt Jenn has too narrow an experience of RVW,

I'm not convinced, Jenn's rather vague replies suggest that her
knowledge of RVW's harsher works is far from "note perfect". I'd like
to ask her, for one, what she makes of the Piano Concerto.

I think it's time to abandon the "19th century" vs "20th century" part
of the debate. A work can be harsh as can be and look backwards in its
compositional process or be bland and forward-thinking.

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia,o

Yep.

and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century.

Really? Where is the harmonic language in that wonderful work that
isn't common in the late 19th century?

I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre

One of my favorite words! ;-)

leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

I admit that I don't listen much beyond:
Greensleeves
Tallis
Folk Song Suite (getting ready for performance this season)
the Choral Anthems (O Clap Your Hands, et al)
Sea Songs
Toccata Marziale (getting ready for performance this season)
Lark Ascending
Linden Lea
Mass G (which I admit has some real 20th century moments)
various folk song settings
Tuba Concerto

[Jenn]

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:31:26 GMT, MiNe 109
wrote:

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:00:47 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


Well, we just disagree then. That's why I call him a "bridge composer".
I would agree that most of the symphonies are a bit more 20th century in
their use of harmonic language, but his most performed works would be
considered darned conservative 20th century music! ;-)

Still disagree. One of his most performed works is the Tallis
Fantasia, and that in fact is quite a progressive work owing very
little to the 19th century. I genuinely believe that listening too
much to the few (too few) performed works at the expensive of his
entire oeuvre leads to a quite wrong notion about RVW, and you're
certainly not the first to hold it.

I doubt Jenn has too narrow an experience of RVW,

I'm not convinced, Jenn's rather vague replies suggest that her
knowledge of RVW's harsher works is far from "note perfect". I'd like
to ask her, for one, what she makes of the Piano Concerto.

I haven't heard it in over 10 years. I'll have to listen again.

[paul packer]

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:23:06 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


I admit that I don't listen much beyond:
Greensleeves
Tallis
Folk Song Suite (getting ready for performance this season)
the Choral Anthems (O Clap Your Hands, et al)
Sea Songs
Toccata Marziale (getting ready for performance this season)
Lark Ascending
Linden Lea
Mass G (which I admit has some real 20th century moments)
various folk song settings
Tuba Concerto

Explains much, though to my ears the Toccata Marziale is quite
aggressively 20th century. The Tuba Concerto too, come to think of it.
One interesting test on this subject for me is, Could a composer's
music be transposed unadapted to a film of recent vintage without it
sounding out of place or old-fashioned. You couldn't, for instance,
transpose Beethoven or even Tchaikovsky to a modern film without it
clearly sounding wrong as pure incidental music. Not so RVW. He moved
easily between the two worlds without altering his harmonic language
(indeed, his 7th symphony is simply an adaption of the Scott Of The
Antarctic" film score). It's interesting that Peter Weir recently used
the Tallis Fantasia several times in Master & Commander without it
jarring in the slightest.


But, I admit, I'm harping, and you already have enough on your plate
dealing with Arnie's triangle elsewhere. :-)