[Ian]

Hello all,

I plan to purchase a new turntable to do mostly 'needle-drops' with
and for normal listening, and I need some advice on what 'table to
buy.

I have narrowed it down to a few selections. First, I had in mind the
Music Hall MMF-2.1. This is a modern turntable and goes for around
$350.00 new. Personally, I've never heard of the company, but many
claim it's a good 'table. Now, I also have the opportunity to
purchase some brand new and unused vintage Pioneer turntables circa
1980. I believe they are all PL-XX series models. It's a tough
decision. I don't know much about turntables myself, but I do want
something that's going to sound good and last me more than a year.
Would you go with a vintage or a modern turntable?

All suggestions greatly appreciated!


--
Ian

[Harry Lavo]

"Ian" -spam wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I plan to purchase a new turntable to do mostly 'needle-drops' with
and for normal listening, and I need some advice on what 'table to
buy.

I have narrowed it down to a few selections. First, I had in mind the
Music Hall MMF-2.1. This is a modern turntable and goes for around
$350.00 new. Personally, I've never heard of the company, but many
claim it's a good 'table. Now, I also have the opportunity to
purchase some brand new and unused vintage Pioneer turntables circa
1980. I believe they are all PL-XX series models. It's a tough
decision. I don't know much about turntables myself, but I do want
something that's going to sound good and last me more than a year.
Would you go with a vintage or a modern turntable?

All suggestions greatly appreciated!


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct drive tables of the
70's/early 80's, while beautifully built, were often sonically inferior to
good belt drive tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston, Thorens,
etc.

The modern belt driven turntables generally have excellent sound, and very
capable tonearms compared to many of their vintage bretheren.

I doubt you can go wrong with the MMF-2.1 if that is your price point. But
you should perhaps also look at Rega and Project and the lowest priced
Thorens if you haven't already.

[Sander deWaal]

"Harry Lavo" said:



I plan to purchase a new turntable to do mostly 'needle-drops' with
and for normal listening, and I need some advice on what 'table to
buy.

I have narrowed it down to a few selections. First, I had in mind the
Music Hall MMF-2.1. This is a modern turntable and goes for around
$350.00 new. Personally, I've never heard of the company, but many
claim it's a good 'table. Now, I also have the opportunity to
purchase some brand new and unused vintage Pioneer turntables circa
1980. I believe they are all PL-XX series models. It's a tough
decision. I don't know much about turntables myself, but I do want
something that's going to sound good and last me more than a year.
Would you go with a vintage or a modern turntable?

All suggestions greatly appreciated!


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct drive tables of the
70's/early 80's, while beautifully built, were often sonically inferior to
good belt drive tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston, Thorens,
etc.



Many early Pioneer models, like the PL12, PL15 etc. were belt-driven.
However, their age means they will need some maintenance, e.g. on
bearings and at least replacing the belt.
Also, many suspended sub-chassis tables like AR, Thorens, but also
Linn, will have weakened springs that need replacement and careful
adjustment.

Also, the arms on those older Pioneers were no more than barely
adequate IMO.
You won't be able to get all the advantages a modern MC cart can
offer, and some arms just won't work with them (too heavy, too much
bearing friction, course adjustments , etc.)


The modern belt driven turntables generally have excellent sound, and very
capable tonearms compared to many of their vintage bretheren.


Agreed.


I doubt you can go wrong with the MMF-2.1 if that is your price point. But
you should perhaps also look at Rega and Project and the lowest priced
Thorens if you haven't already.


Unless you're a DIY-er, I'd follow this advice.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds different"
bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that the
same speed, reducing the exciting audible differences that make Harry's
world go 'round. Furthermore, direct drive turntables all use negative
feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how negative feedback craps
up the sound. ;-)

[Jenn]

In article ,
Ian -spam wrote:

Hello all,

I plan to purchase a new turntable to do mostly 'needle-drops' with
and for normal listening, and I need some advice on what 'table to
buy.

I have narrowed it down to a few selections. First, I had in mind the
Music Hall MMF-2.1. This is a modern turntable and goes for around
$350.00 new. Personally, I've never heard of the company, but many
claim it's a good 'table. Now, I also have the opportunity to
purchase some brand new and unused vintage Pioneer turntables circa
1980. I believe they are all PL-XX series models. It's a tough
decision. I don't know much about turntables myself, but I do want
something that's going to sound good and last me more than a year.
Would you go with a vintage or a modern turntable?

All suggestions greatly appreciated!

The Music Hall is very good at this price point. You might also want to
check out the Rega P1 and the Pro-Ject Debut III for about he same
price. Of those three, heard with the same cartridge, I prefer the
Music Hall. Turntables at this price point are a great value and one of
the best improvements in home audio over the past 5 years, in my opinion.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds different"
bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that the
same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy. In my experience, the
current crop of turntables costing less than $400 sound better than the
massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds. That
makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play
recordings that the same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy.

Then avoid the noisy ones.

In my experience, the current crop of turntables costing less
than $400 sound better than the massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

Well they surely do sound better if you think that playing a LP at the wrong
speed makes it sound *better*.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds
different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that
the same speed, reducing the exciting audible differences that make
Harry's world go 'round. Furthermore, direct drive turntables all use
negative feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how negative
feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds. That
makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play
recordings that the same speed, reducing the exciting
audible differences that make Harry's world go 'round. Furthermore,
direct drive turntables all use negative
feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how
negative feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

Harry, why not tell us about all of the precise measurements of turntable
speed that you have made in the past say 5 years.

[Arny Krueger]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message news
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:07:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at
different speeds.

My two turntables (an ageing Micro Seiki BL-91 and a
quite recent Rega P9) show perfect pitch, as heard as
well as measured - if a test record with a 1 KHz tone
plays at 1 KHz, taking or leaving minute amounts of wow
and flutter, the speed is 100% correct.

No turntable has precisely the correct speed. Every real-world turntable is
always a little off, one way or the other.

One way to read 100% is 100% +/- 1%. Is that what you mean?

[ScottW]

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds different"
bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that the
same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy.

Noisy? In what way? I've had a number of belt drive
and direct drive TTs and none had any audible rumble or wow or flutter,
which is the noise I would expect to hear from a faulty drive system.

In my experience, the
current crop of turntables costing less than $400 sound better than the
massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

I suspect that is all arm/platter resonance improvements and has
little or nothing to do with the drive.

ScottW

[Bill Riel]

In article ,
says...

I doubt you can go wrong with the MMF-2.1 if that is your price point. But
you should perhaps also look at Rega and Project and the lowest priced
Thorens if you haven't already.

Harry (or Jenn or anyone else for that matter):

do you know if the Project turntables are worthwhile? I haven't had a
vinyl rig for ages, but I recently started thinking I'd like to explore
this realm again.

This desire stems from a couple of things: the first was hearing a SOTA
rig in a local hi-fi shop that blew me away. I don't even know what I
was listening to gear wise (except that the speakers were B&W 802D's
which are way beyond what I own), but the experience intrigued me.

There may well have been noise and distortion, etc. that people carry on
about, but as a music lover I just found myself so captivated by the
music that I simply didn't care. Now I readily admit that I have no
problems with well mastered CDs and I love the way that they sound on my
system, but...for me this IS a hobby, and I actually miss so much of the
ritual that goes on with handling and playing vinyl.

The second thing is that I'm seeing more LP's in local record stores.
Not huge amounts, but certainly more than I'd see 10 years ago - and
many of these are titles I'd like to own.

A turntable is not something that I want to sink a ton of money into,
especially initially when I'm not actually sure how much I'll wind up
using it, but the desire for this is definitely growing.

A hi-fi dealer that I have a very good relationship with recommended
that I consider a project (or is that Pro-ject?)table if I want a good
quality table at an entry level price. I've been humming and hawing
about this since, and I probably will bite, but I thought I'd ask
because you obviously have a lot of experience and expertise in this
realm.

Thanks,

Bill

[Harry Lavo]

"Bill Riel" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...

I doubt you can go wrong with the MMF-2.1 if that is your price point.
But
you should perhaps also look at Rega and Project and the lowest priced
Thorens if you haven't already.

Harry (or Jenn or anyone else for that matter):

do you know if the Project turntables are worthwhile? I haven't had a
vinyl rig for ages, but I recently started thinking I'd like to explore
this realm again.

This desire stems from a couple of things: the first was hearing a SOTA
rig in a local hi-fi shop that blew me away. I don't even know what I
was listening to gear wise (except that the speakers were B&W 802D's
which are way beyond what I own), but the experience intrigued me.

There may well have been noise and distortion, etc. that people carry on
about, but as a music lover I just found myself so captivated by the
music that I simply didn't care. Now I readily admit that I have no
problems with well mastered CDs and I love the way that they sound on my
system, but...for me this IS a hobby, and I actually miss so much of the
ritual that goes on with handling and playing vinyl.

The second thing is that I'm seeing more LP's in local record stores.
Not huge amounts, but certainly more than I'd see 10 years ago - and
many of these are titles I'd like to own.

A turntable is not something that I want to sink a ton of money into,
especially initially when I'm not actually sure how much I'll wind up
using it, but the desire for this is definitely growing.

A hi-fi dealer that I have a very good relationship with recommended
that I consider a project (or is that Pro-ject?)table if I want a good
quality table at an entry level price. I've been humming and hawing
about this since, and I probably will bite, but I thought I'd ask
because you obviously have a lot of experience and expertise in this
realm.


They have an excellent reputation for value, and a good reputation as a very
competent entry level turntables which are better than entry level
turntables of 25 years ago. They have excellent arms for their price.

I've never had one in my system, so I can only make limited remarks on their
sound, which I have auditioned casually at a couple of dealers, and which
sounded fine. But Jenn has done careful shopping, and can address this
issue better than I.

[Arny Krueger]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message news
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 15:40:40 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

No turntable has precisely the correct speed. Every
real-world turntable is always a little off, one way or
the other.

Hence the proviso :"taking or leaving minute amounts of
wow and flutter".

A completely relevant issue, but one which regrettably does not include the
long-term speed inaccuracy that I'm talking about.

And, to tell the truth, the direct-drive tables have some speed accuracy
errors of their own. However, they use a tachometer on the turntable itself.
I've never seen a belt-drive system with a tach on the turntable platter
providing feedback to the motor speed control. The stretchiness of the drive
belt raises some issues from the standpoint of nyquist stability. Direct
drive tables lack this problem for obvious reasons.

[paul packer]

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:49:29 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:


Many early Pioneer models, like the PL12, PL15 etc. were belt-driven.
However, their age means they will need some maintenance, e.g. on
bearings and at least replacing the belt.
Also, many suspended sub-chassis tables like AR, Thorens, but also
Linn, will have weakened springs that need replacement and careful
adjustment.

Also, the arms on those older Pioneers were no more than barely
adequate IMO.
You won't be able to get all the advantages a modern MC cart can
offer, and some arms just won't work with them (too heavy, too much
bearing friction, course adjustments , etc.)

Ah, the joys of turntables. Takes me back..back to where I don't wish
to go.

Were they really so much better than CD? I've just been listening to
some CDs transcribed from LPs, and they don't sound as good as the
last few regular CDs I've bought. It's all a hoax, isn't it? I mean,
yes, CDs sounded dire in '82 and for years afterwards, but most sound
pretty good now to my ears. Are they really so bad you have to start
replacing bearings and springs in ancient old turntables that should
have been buried in the backyard years ago?

[paul packer]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:02:27 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:



Well they surely do sound better if you think that playing a LP at the wrong
speed makes it sound *better*.

Well, playing Metallica at 340 RPM would make it sound better to me.

[Margaret von B]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds
different"
bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that
the
same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy. In my experience, the
current crop of turntables costing less than $400 sound better than the
massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

Not necessarily. Late 80's Denon DP59L sounds better than any of the current
under $400 tables that I've heard in my system. I think it cost $650 with
arm back then.


Cheers!

Margaret

[Margaret von B]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds. That
makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play
recordings that the same speed, reducing the exciting
audible differences that make Harry's world go 'round. Furthermore,
direct drive turntables all use negative
feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how
negative feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

Harry, why not tell us about all of the precise measurements of turntable
speed that you have made in the past say 5 years.


You OTOH have a habit of making up "tests" and "measurements" that never
occurred.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Margaret von B" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that endears them to
"audible differences" addicts like Harry. The belts all slip. Without
constant monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all sounds
different"
bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play recordings that
the
same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy. In my experience, the
current crop of turntables costing less than $400 sound better than the
massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

Not necessarily. Late 80's Denon DP59L sounds better than any of the current
under $400 tables that I've heard in my system. I think it cost $650 with
arm back then.


Cheers!

Margaret

I'm glad that it sounds good in your system. I had a DP 62L for a long
time, and sold it last year for a Clearaudio. In the shopping process,
I liked the sound of the inexpensive Pro-Jects, et al, more than the
Denon.

[Jenn]

In article ,
Bill Riel wrote:

In article ,
says...

I doubt you can go wrong with the MMF-2.1 if that is your price point. But
you should perhaps also look at Rega and Project and the lowest priced
Thorens if you haven't already.

Harry (or Jenn or anyone else for that matter):

do you know if the Project turntables are worthwhile? I haven't had a
vinyl rig for ages, but I recently started thinking I'd like to explore
this realm again.

This desire stems from a couple of things: the first was hearing a SOTA
rig in a local hi-fi shop that blew me away. I don't even know what I
was listening to gear wise (except that the speakers were B&W 802D's
which are way beyond what I own), but the experience intrigued me.

There may well have been noise and distortion, etc. that people carry on
about, but as a music lover I just found myself so captivated by the
music that I simply didn't care. Now I readily admit that I have no
problems with well mastered CDs and I love the way that they sound on my
system, but...for me this IS a hobby, and I actually miss so much of the
ritual that goes on with handling and playing vinyl.

The second thing is that I'm seeing more LP's in local record stores.
Not huge amounts, but certainly more than I'd see 10 years ago - and
many of these are titles I'd like to own.

A turntable is not something that I want to sink a ton of money into,
especially initially when I'm not actually sure how much I'll wind up
using it, but the desire for this is definitely growing.

A hi-fi dealer that I have a very good relationship with recommended
that I consider a project (or is that Pro-ject?)table if I want a good
quality table at an entry level price. I've been humming and hawing
about this since, and I probably will bite, but I thought I'd ask
because you obviously have a lot of experience and expertise in this
realm.

Thanks,

Bill

The Pro-Jects are excellent entry level TTs. I think that the best deal
going right now is this:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it....2&category=758

[Jenn]

In article ,
Fran?ois Yves Le Gal wrote:

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:48:31 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

In my experience, the
current crop of turntables costing less than $400 sound better than the
massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

Ahem, if some "massive" DD TT's were - and still are - quite poor, no modern
turntable at a decent price comes even remotely close to a high quality
model such as the Technics SP-10 or the Kenwood LO-7D.

I didn't say that they are "poor", just not as good as inexpensive belt
drives, IMO. I do like the Technics sound, but have never heard the
Kenwood.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt drive
tables such as those manufactured by Linn, Ariston,
Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds. That
makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to play
recordings that the same speed, snip

They are also bound and determined to be noisy.

Then avoid the noisy ones.

I do.


In my experience, the current crop of turntables costing less
than $400 sound better than the massive-based DDs of yesteryear.

Well they surely do sound better if you think that playing a LP at the wrong
speed makes it sound *better*.

Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is popularly referred to
as "perfect pitch", and I've never detected a speed problem on any belt
drive turntable that I've owned. If you detect a speed problem with a
modern BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

[Bill Riel]

In article jennconductsREMOVETHIS-2AEE74.20315507092006
@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com,
says...

The Pro-Jects are excellent entry level TTs. I think that the best deal
going right now is this:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it....2&category=758


Jenn,

thank-you for the info!

Bill

[Bill Riel]

In article ,
says...

They have an excellent reputation for value, and a good reputation as a very
competent entry level turntables which are better than entry level
turntables of 25 years ago. They have excellent arms for their price.

Thanks for the information, Harry.

Cheers,

Bill

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message


Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've never
detected a speed problem on any belt drive turntable that
I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile BD TTs would turn up
25% or more 0.5% or more out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable technical means,
Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable means for doing so?

[Arny Krueger]

"Margaret von B" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt
drive tables such as those manufactured by Linn,
Ariston, Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to
play recordings that the same speed, reducing the
exciting audible differences that make Harry's world go 'round.
Furthermore, direct drive turntables all use negative
feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how
negative feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

Harry, why not tell us about all of the precise
measurements of turntable speed that you have made in
the past say 5 years.

You OTOH have a habit of making up "tests" and
"measurements" that never occurred.

Thanks for admitting how ignorant you are about turntable tests and
measurements, Maggie. Testing the speed of turntables is very basic and
easy, and can be done in very little time with negligable effort using test
equipment that costs virtually nothing.

[Arny Krueger]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:29:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

A completely relevant issue, but one which regrettably
does not include the long-term speed inaccuracy that I'm
talking about.

None significant constated with well maintained quality
turntables.

I agree that checking a turntable's speed while it is in use, is basic
maintenance that should be done routinely.

[Margaret von B]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Margaret von B" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the direct
drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while beautifully
built, were often sonically inferior to good belt
drive tables such as those manufactured by Linn,
Ariston, Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant monitoring,
belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the "It all
sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to
play recordings that the same speed, reducing the
exciting audible differences that make Harry's world go 'round.
Furthermore, direct drive turntables all use negative
feedback, and every true-blue audiophile knows how
negative feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

Harry, why not tell us about all of the precise
measurements of turntable speed that you have made in
the past say 5 years.

You OTOH have a habit of making up "tests" and
"measurements" that never occurred.

Thanks for admitting how ignorant you are about turntable tests and
measurements, Maggie. Testing the speed of turntables is very basic and
easy, and can be done in very little time with negligable effort using
test equipment that costs virtually nothing.


What you don't have is a decent turntable, you dumb ass liar.

[George M. Middius]

Margaret von B said to CheapskateBorg:

turntable tests and measurements
Testing
test equipment

What you don't have is a decent turntable, you dumb ass liar.

Maybe not, but according to the Laws of Krooscience, such a possession is
unnecessary. I'm sure you know this, Margaret, but I'll recap it anyway.
It is a Known Fact that turntables are inferior to digital media.
Therefore, all "tests" performed by the Krooborg are certain to show what
is already known, i.e. that turntables are noisy and erratic in speed.

Hivieism tells us that "tests" are more meaningful than simply listening.
This is an article of Their faith. If They accept the premise that Normals
can base their choices on just listening, they will be forced to submit to
reprogramming or even reorientation. Even 'borgs don't like doing that.




--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message


Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've never
detected a speed problem on any belt drive turntable
that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?


If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you check them, first
with just the turntable spinning, then with a LP in place, and finally with
the needle in the groove?

Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having fantasies about being
questioned by a man with no ears? Strange!

[Arny Krueger]

"Margaret von B" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Margaret von B" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


"Vintage Lovers" will disagree with me, but the
direct drive tables of the 70's/early 80's, while
beautifully built, were often sonically inferior to
good belt drive tables such as those manufactured
by Linn, Ariston, Thorens, etc.

Belt drive turntables have an inherent property that
endears them to "audible differences" addicts like
Harry. The belts all slip. Without constant
monitoring, belt drive turntables play LPs at different speeds.
That makes them sound different, just pleasing the
"It all sounds different" bigots among us.

Direct-drive turntables are bound and determined to
play recordings that the same speed, reducing the
exciting audible differences that make Harry's world
go 'round. Furthermore, direct drive turntables all
use negative feedback, and every true-blue
audiophile knows how negative feedback craps up the sound. ;-)

What utter, bigoted, tripe, Arny!

Harry, why not tell us about all of the precise
measurements of turntable speed that you have made in
the past say 5 years.

You OTOH have a habit of making up "tests" and
"measurements" that never occurred.

Thanks for admitting how ignorant you are about
turntable tests and measurements, Maggie. Testing the
speed of turntables is very basic and easy, and can be
done in very little time with negligable effort using
test equipment that costs virtually nothing.

What you don't have is a decent turntable, you dumb ass
liar.

OK Maggie, list out the complete inventory of turntables in my posession, or
admit that you're just mouthing off again.

[Margaret von B]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message


Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've never
detected a speed problem on any belt drive turntable
that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?


If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you check them, first
with just the turntable spinning, then with a LP in place, and finally
with the needle in the groove?

Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having fantasies about being
questioned by a man

A man? You? Phhhhtttt!!!!!!!

:-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Margaret von B" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in
message


Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've
never detected a speed problem on any belt drive
turntable that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?


If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you
check them, first with just the turntable spinning, then
with a LP in place, and finally with the needle in the
groove?
Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having
fantasies about being questioned by a man

A man? You? Phhhhtttt!!!!!!!

I'm surely more of a man than you're a woman, Maggie.

[George M. Middius]

The "debating trade" is a deadly serious "business".

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?

Notice that Mr. **** is unable to substantiate his klaim.

Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having fantasies about being
questioned by a man with no ears? Strange!

Thank's Mr. Kroofeces for arguing ad nauseum Mr. Krooborg about nothing at
all Mr. Kroo****.




--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[George M. Middius]

Another display of the Krooborg's scintillating "wit". ;-)

A man? You? Phhhhtttt!!!!!!!

I'm surely more of a man than you're a woman, Maggie.

According to you, "Maggie" is not a woman at all. Which means you're how
much of a man, Arnii? ;-)




--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com

Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've never
detected a speed problem on any belt drive turntable
that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?

Hmmmm, unanswered. I guess that he was once again blowing smoke.



If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you check them, first
with just the turntable spinning,

They give the illusion of turning very slightly to the right (IIRC).

then with a LP in place,

Moving so slightly in the same direction as above that you have to stare
at it to perceive it.

and finally with
the needle in the groove?

No movement.


Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having fantasies about being
questioned by a man with no ears? Strange!

Yes, you are.

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net wrote in message
news
I'm surely more of a man than you're a woman, Maggie.

According to you, "Maggie" is not a woman at all.

Pretty obvious from the tone of writing, no?

Which means you're how much of a man, Arnii? ;-)

Just more of your usual childish illogic, George. The fact that silly posts
like this don't embarass you to the point of quitting Usenet is just more
evidence of your lack of good judgement and self-consciousness.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com

Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've
never detected a speed problem on any belt drive
turntable that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?

Hmmmm, unanswered. I guess that he was once again
blowing smoke.

No, it was a truism. Sorry you didn't get it, Jenn.

If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you
check them, first with just the turntable spinning,

They give the illusion of turning very slightly to the
right (IIRC).

OK, the speed is inaccurate.

then with a LP in place,

Moving so slightly in the same direction as above that
you have to stare at it to perceive it.

Shows that the turntable's speed is load dependent.

and finally with
the needle in the groove?

No movement.

Probably not true from start to finish of a typical LP due to the
turntable's load dependency, as shown by the two tests above.

Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having
fantasies about being questioned by a man with no ears?
Strange!

Yes, you are.

It's just your well-known problem with telling the difference between fact
and fantasy, Jenn.

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg wrestles with his language problem again, and as usual, he
loses on points.

According to you, "Maggie" is not a woman at all.
Which means you're how much of a man, Arnii? ;-)

Just more of your usual childish illogic, George.

Well isn't that special. You, Arnii Krooborg, progenitor of the horrific
mind-**** known as Kroologic, see fit to diss my gibe as "illogic".
Whatever shall I do? ;-)

The fact that silly posts
like this don't embarass you to the point of quitting Usenet is just more
evidence of your lack of good judgement and self-consciousness.

Only on 'Borgworld is a lack of self-consciousness a bad thing.




--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

y.
com

Or if you like the sound of music. I have what is
popularly referred to as "perfect pitch", and I've
never detected a speed problem on any belt drive
turntable that I've owned.

You've basically contradicted yourself, Jenn

How so, Arny?

Hmmmm, unanswered. I guess that he was once again
blowing smoke.


No, it was a truism. Sorry you didn't get it, Jenn.

How can it be a truism if I haven't contradicted myself (which I
haven't)? Face it, Arny; you once again made a meaningless accusation
and you can't back it up.


If you detect a speed problem with a modern
BD turntable, it's broken in some way.

Based on past experience, a random check of audiophile
BD TTs would turn up 25% or more 0.5% or more
out-of-spec.

Have you checked the speed of your TT using a reliable
technical means, Jenn? Do you even posess a reliable
means for doing so?

Just a strobe disk and my ears.

So what do the magic bars on the strobe disk do when you
check them, first with just the turntable spinning,

They give the illusion of turning very slightly to the
right (IIRC).

OK, the speed is inaccurate.

With nothing on my platter, yes, slightly. Doesn't matter.


then with a LP in place,

Moving so slightly in the same direction as above that
you have to stare at it to perceive it.

Shows that the turntable's speed is load dependent.

Very slightly so. Who cares?


and finally with
the needle in the groove?

No movement.

Probably not true from start to finish of a typical LP due to the
turntable's load dependency, as shown by the two tests above.

Perhaps; but so what? If I detect no change in the pitch, what's it
matter?


Do you even "posess" ears?

Boy you're really paranoid, eh Jenn? You're having
fantasies about being questioned by a man with no ears?
Strange!

Yes, you are.

It's just your well-known problem with telling the difference between fact
and fantasy, Jenn.

Huh? Would you like to give an example, Arny?