[drichard]

Hi,

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge about the origins, strengths,
and weaknesses of the various Chinese microphone manufacturers and the
condenser mic diaphragm assembly and manufacturing. Very interesting
stuff.

Thank you Scott and JP, and others, for sharing your knowledge.

What about the ribbons assemblies used in the Chinese ribbon mics? How
do these compare to other ribbon designs? Is the manufacturing up to
snuff? Any "gotcha's" to watch out for? There are several recently
introduced mic body styles now, some of which look like a lollipop,
some of which look like a Royer, etc. Any comments?

Also, comments on the sound from people who have used the newer ribbon
mics are appreciated. As someone who is now more of a hobbyist, and on
a budget, these inexpensive ribbon mics have an appeal to me.

Thanks in advance,

Dean

[Scott Dorsey]

drichard wrote:
Thank you Scott and JP, and others, for sharing your knowledge.

What about the ribbons assemblies used in the Chinese ribbon mics? How
do these compare to other ribbon designs? Is the manufacturing up to
snuff? Any "gotcha's" to watch out for? There are several recently
introduced mic body styles now, some of which look like a lollipop,
some of which look like a Royer, etc. Any comments?

They are all basically the same motor assembly, which is a copy of the
AEA R84 assembly that was built by someone who didn't understand the
acoustical design of the R84.

Also, comments on the sound from people who have used the newer ribbon
mics are appreciated. As someone who is now more of a hobbyist, and on
a budget, these inexpensive ribbon mics have an appeal to me.

I'd rather have a Beyer M260 than the things, for about the same price
range. But you can read the July 2005 issue of Recording for a review
of the Chinese design.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JP Gerard]

I haven't seen enough of those to have an opinion. But from what I heard,
I'm not interested.

Also, I'm very picky about what transfo is used in a mic, so anything from
China would be instant candidate for an upgrade. But I wouldn't hesitate to
swap the transfo in more expensive units of course - it's just that it might
not be needed.

Finally, shape, well, most if not all those units apparently use the
same motor. There's probably one decent grille design, the others exist
because an importer needed "his" ribbon mic to look different. So they ask
for a different shape, the factory comes up with something without even
analysing the grille's effect.

When you buy ie. an old RCA BK11 or an AEA R84, you know that some thought
obviously went into the design...

JP

"drichard" a écrit dans le message de
ups.com...
Hi,

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge about the origins, strengths,
and weaknesses of the various Chinese microphone manufacturers and the
condenser mic diaphragm assembly and manufacturing. Very interesting
stuff.

Thank you Scott and JP, and others, for sharing your knowledge.

What about the ribbons assemblies used in the Chinese ribbon mics? How
do these compare to other ribbon designs? Is the manufacturing up to
snuff? Any "gotcha's" to watch out for? There are several recently
introduced mic body styles now, some of which look like a lollipop,
some of which look like a Royer, etc. Any comments?

Also, comments on the sound from people who have used the newer ribbon
mics are appreciated. As someone who is now more of a hobbyist, and on
a budget, these inexpensive ribbon mics have an appeal to me.

Thanks in advance,

Dean

[Scott Dorsey]

JP Gerard wrote:
Also, I'm very picky about what transfo is used in a mic, so anything from
China would be instant candidate for an upgrade. But I wouldn't hesitate to
swap the transfo in more expensive units of course - it's just that it might
not be needed.

It's needed very severely. It's very difficult to make a good transformer,
but it's that much harder to make one with such a low input impedance. With
a primary impedance of less than an ohm, you need a big solid primary winding
that can't move around, and heavy wiring from the ribbon to the transformer
which is carefully fixed in place and tightly twisted. The Chinese mikes
don't have this.

Finally, shape, well, most if not all those units apparently use the
same motor. There's probably one decent grille design, the others exist
because an importer needed "his" ribbon mic to look different. So they ask
for a different shape, the factory comes up with something without even
analysing the grille's effect.

That's okay, they didn't analyze the acoustical effects of the motor
either. They use some random perfed metal as a blast guard, directly
copying AEA but without noticing that the AEA blast guard is part of
a tuned system that they substantially changed.

When you buy ie. an old RCA BK11 or an AEA R84, you know that some thought
obviously went into the design...

I would LOVE to buy an old RCA BK-11....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[HKC]

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge about the origins, strengths,
and weaknesses of the various Chinese microphone manufacturers and the
condenser mic diaphragm assembly and manufacturing.


I don't understand why there's never any mentioning of the rather great
Oktava ML52. It's been reviewed many times over the years and has always
come out with bells on. It's not expensive, especially after Oktava opened
their online shop. The only reason to buy the Chinese stuff is more or less
the price and Oktava is very comparable on that account so I don't
understand what the fuzz is all about.
I have a suspicion that many people think of ribbons as some kind of vintage
sounding condenser which isn't true at all.
Ribbon mics have certain areas where they excel, mostly when you record a
signal that have a hard trebly edge that you want to smooth out and get more
low end into. More on the bad side is that you have to have good preamps to
run a ribbon mic because their output is very low so if you only have a 100$
Behringer mixer prepare yourself for some serious noise (and still run out
of gain).
I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.

[JP Gerard]

It's needed very severely. It's very difficult to make a good
transformer,
but it's that much harder to make one with such a low input impedance.
With
a primary impedance of less than an ohm, you need a big solid primary
winding
that can't move around, and heavy wiring from the ribbon to the
transformer
which is carefully fixed in place and tightly twisted. The Chinese mikes
don't have this.

Right, that's what I mean. For instance, I don't have any complaints about
the transfo of my AEA R84. When a transfo is obviously "poor" as in the RCA
74, I don't hesitate to do the swap.

That's okay, they didn't analyze the acoustical effects of the motor
either. They use some random perfed metal as a blast guard, directly
copying AEA but without noticing that the AEA blast guard is part of
a tuned system that they substantially changed.

And I prefer my 84 with the blast guard (so that's what it's called!)
removed. You lose some air, but I never used my 84 when I needed air anyway!
I can see how designing this part of the system without understanding it
could really mess up the response. Probably the case with the chinese ribbon
mics then.

I would LOVE to buy an old RCA BK-11....

I'm sort of saving up for a nice one but they're close to a grand now.

Worth it? I don't know. I spent 1200 Euros on a goddamn U87 so why not.

JP

[Ian Bell]

JP Gerard wrote:

I haven't seen enough of those to have an opinion. But from what I heard,
I'm not interested.

Also, I'm very picky about what transfo is used in a mic, so anything from
China would be instant candidate for an upgrade. But I wouldn't hesitate
to swap the transfo in more expensive units of course - it's just that it
might not be needed.


What not use a transformerless one like the Rode NT1-A?

Ian

[JP Gerard]

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

JP

"Ian Bell" a écrit dans le message de
news:44e6d7e4.0@entanet...
JP Gerard wrote:

I haven't seen enough of those to have an opinion. But from what I
heard,
I'm not interested.

Also, I'm very picky about what transfo is used in a mic, so anything
from
China would be instant candidate for an upgrade. But I wouldn't hesitate
to swap the transfo in more expensive units of course - it's just that
it
might not be needed.


What not use a transformerless one like the Rode NT1-A?

Ian

[Edi Zubovic]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:17:30 +0200, "HKC" wrote:
--------------------------8----------------------------
Ribbon mics have certain areas where they excel, mostly when you record a
signal that have a hard trebly edge that you want to smooth out and get more
low end into. More on the bad side is that you have to have good preamps to
run a ribbon mic because their output is very low so if you only have a 100$
Behringer mixer prepare yourself for some serious noise (and still run out
of gain).

--Maybe I'm thinking in a wrong direction, but could a modern ie. very
low noise, variable gain, preamp gain up a ribbon microphone?

I mean, if an input of such a preamp can without much noise gain up a
phono moving coil output, some 0.2 V, maybe it could gain up a ribbon
output as well.

Just a thought.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

-------------------------8--------------------------

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:17:30 +0200, "HKC" wrote:

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge about the origins, strengths,
and weaknesses of the various Chinese microphone manufacturers and the
condenser mic diaphragm assembly and manufacturing.


I don't understand why there's never any mentioning of the rather great
Oktava ML52. It's been reviewed many times over the years and has always
come out with bells on. It's not expensive, especially after Oktava opened
their online shop. The only reason to buy the Chinese stuff is more or less
the price and Oktava is very comparable on that account so I don't
understand what the fuzz is all about.
I have a suspicion that many people think of ribbons as some kind of vintage
sounding condenser which isn't true at all.
Ribbon mics have certain areas where they excel, mostly when you record a
signal that have a hard trebly edge that you want to smooth out and get more
low end into. More on the bad side is that you have to have good preamps to
run a ribbon mic because their output is very low so if you only have a 100$
Behringer mixer prepare yourself for some serious noise (and still run out
of gain).

The current crop of Behringer mixers have a noise performance
identical to a Neve desk. That isn't as good as it could be, but only
by a few dB, so there really isn't much to be won. I've just plugged
my ribbon into my Behringer Eurorack 802 and although the gain is not
wonderful, I would say it is sufficient. Usually I use this mic with
my own design dedicated preamp which does have those couple of dBs
advantage in noise performance.

I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.


I would not be without my ribbon - it has qualities that are simply
not found in any other mic I have tried. But my ribbon mic is English,
not Chinese.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Carey Carlan]

"JP Gerard" wrote in
:

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer
after the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

How about active circuits (like the new Royers?)

[JP Gerard]

You can of course put an amp after the impedance conversion...

JP

"Carey Carlan" a écrit dans le message de
...
"JP Gerard" wrote in
:

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer
after the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

How about active circuits (like the new Royers?)

[Scott Dorsey]

HKC wrote:
I don't understand why there's never any mentioning of the rather great
Oktava ML52. It's been reviewed many times over the years and has always
come out with bells on. It's not expensive, especially after Oktava opened
their online shop. The only reason to buy the Chinese stuff is more or less
the price and Oktava is very comparable on that account so I don't
understand what the fuzz is all about.

The MK52 has some very serious grille problems, and also some issues caused
by the blast deflector. If you could get the grille supported so it doesn't
ring and you removed the blast deflector (assuming you're not using it for
vocals, where the deflector may be a necessary evil), you'd get a lot flatter
midrange and a better pattern.

The null on the MK52 is very poor... not as poor as with the Chinese mikes,
but poor.

I have a suspicion that many people think of ribbons as some kind of vintage
sounding condenser which isn't true at all.
Ribbon mics have certain areas where they excel, mostly when you record a
signal that have a hard trebly edge that you want to smooth out and get more
low end into. More on the bad side is that you have to have good preamps to
run a ribbon mic because their output is very low so if you only have a 100$
Behringer mixer prepare yourself for some serious noise (and still run out
of gain).

The main reason I grab a ribbon is because I want something with a smooth
top end, and usually because I need a figure-8 as well. If the mike pattern
isn't good, much of the utility is gone for me. I'll often use the figure-8
to deal with slap echo from ceilings, or to record singer/songwriter without
getting guitar in the vocal mike.

I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.

The first studio I worked at only had ribbon mikes. Well, we also had an
EV 666, but hardly anyone ever used it. But 90% of the work was done just
with 77DXes and occasionally the Shures.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article 44e6d7e4.0@entanet, Ian Bell wrote:
JP Gerard wrote:
I haven't seen enough of those to have an opinion. But from what I heard,
I'm not interested.

Also, I'm very picky about what transfo is used in a mic, so anything from
China would be instant candidate for an upgrade. But I wouldn't hesitate
to swap the transfo in more expensive units of course - it's just that it
might not be needed.

What not use a transformerless one like the Rode NT1-A?

It's not a ribbon.

I don't think a transformerless ribbon is currently possible. Folks have been
trying for years, but the sub-ohm input impedance required is difficult.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Carey Carlan wrote:
"JP Gerard" wrote in
:

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer
after the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

How about active circuits (like the new Royers?)

The Royers have a transformer before the active amp. So does the Oktava ML15.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:10:31 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

JP

The Amek Neve 9098 pre did wonders for the ribbons when I reviewed it. It has
a tranny front end.

Not all tranny front ends are step up. The one in the STT-1 isn't.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 04:17:30 -0400, HKC wrote
(in article ):

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge about the origins, strengths,
and weaknesses of the various Chinese microphone manufacturers and the
condenser mic diaphragm assembly and manufacturing.


I don't understand why there's never any mentioning of the rather great
Oktava ML52. It's been reviewed many times over the years and has always
come out with bells on.

Where? IWhen? keep a pretty close watch on mics and "many times over the
years" seems like an overstatement. If Oktave had been making a kick ass
ribbon mic, I think we'd have heard more about it.

It's not expensive, especially after Oktava opened
their online shop. The only reason to buy the Chinese stuff is more or less
the price and Oktava is very comparable on that account so I don't
understand what the fuzz is all about.

Yes.

I have a suspicion that many people think of ribbons as some kind of vintage
sounding condenser which isn't true at all.

No. Not true.

Ribbon mics have certain areas where they excel, mostly when you record a
signal that have a hard trebly edge that you want to smooth out and get more
low end into. More on the bad side is that you have to have good preamps to
run a ribbon mic because their output is very low so if you only have a 100$
Behringer mixer prepare yourself for some serious noise (and still run out
of gain).

Yes.

I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.

Ribbon mics don't have the hf response for a good sounding acoustic guitar.
They go away pretty fast after 10 kHz. Ribbon mics have no "air." You really
need a condenser for that unless you have a really nasty sounding acoustic
guitar and there are some of those out there. Guitar AMPS, however, now
you're talkin'.

As I mentioned earlier, the preamp is REALLY important. the best results are
with a preamp that has a good stepup transformer, especially with quiet
sources.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[JP Gerard]

No no no, we're talking about the output transformer INSIDE the ribbon
mic...

JP

"Ty Ford" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:10:31 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer
after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

JP

The Amek Neve 9098 pre did wonders for the ribbons when I reviewed it. It
has
a tranny front end.

Not all tranny front ends are step up. The one in the STT-1 isn't.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Paul Stamler]

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
. ..

As I mentioned earlier, the preamp is REALLY important. the best results
are
with a preamp that has a good stepup transformer, especially with quiet
sources.

I basically agree, but it's interesting that AEA's preamp, designed
specifically for ribbons, is transformerless.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Paul Stamler wrote:
"Ty Ford" wrote in message

As I mentioned earlier, the preamp is REALLY important. the best results
are
with a preamp that has a good stepup transformer, especially with quiet
sources.

I basically agree, but it's interesting that AEA's preamp, designed
specifically for ribbons, is transformerless.

Millennia has a "ribbon option" for their preamps which includes a shunt
resistance.

The problem is that it's hard to build a low-Z input without a transformer
unless you're willing to use a shunt and sacrifice noise performance. With
such a low signal level to begin with, noise performance is a big issue and
it becomes that much more important when you're losing signal with an input
shunt.

You can do it. It's hard, but you can do it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:28:59 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

No no no, we're talking about the output transformer INSIDE the ribbon
mic...

JP

I'm saying that a preamp with a stepup transformer is pretty much required to
get the best from a ribbon if you have have a quiet source.

Regards,

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:50:03 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article ):

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
. ..

As I mentioned earlier, the preamp is REALLY important. the best results
are
with a preamp that has a good stepup transformer, especially with quiet
sources.

I basically agree, but it's interesting that AEA's preamp, designed
specifically for ribbons, is transformerless.

Peace,
Paul



What really quiet sources have you tried it on?

Regards,

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[JP Gerard]

Oh, well I don't know... you're probably right, it certainly makes sense...
but I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with an electronically
balanced input stage that rivals the noise specs of a premap with a good
stetup.

JP


"Ty Ford" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:28:59 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

No no no, we're talking about the output transformer INSIDE the ribbon
mic...

JP

I'm saying that a preamp with a stepup transformer is pretty much required
to
get the best from a ribbon if you have have a quiet source.

Regards,

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ian Bell]

JP Gerard wrote:

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.


whoops.

The thing about a transformer is it gives you noiseless gain. Typical
current mic preamp topologies provide near theoretical noise performance
with a 200 ohm source but fare much worse with a really low source like a
ribbon. Bipolar trasistors typically have their best noise performance
looking into about 5K ohms. Rupert knew this well and used a 2:1
transformer to give his mic pres a 1K2 input inpedance. That is not to say
there is not a topology that can achieve similar noise performance with a
ribbon source; it just needs designing.

IAn

[Paul Stamler]

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
As I mentioned earlier, the preamp is REALLY important. the best
results
are
with a preamp that has a good stepup transformer, especially with quiet
sources.

I basically agree, but it's interesting that AEA's preamp, designed
specifically for ribbons, is transformerless.

What really quiet sources have you tried it on?

I haven't tried it at all, I'm just reporting because I find it interesting,
and counterintuitive, that AEA prefers a transformerless design (by Fred
Forssell) to a transformer.

Peace,
Paul

[HKC]

Scott Dorsey wrote. The MK52 has some very serious grille problems, and also
some issues caused by the blast deflector.

I know that there's a problem if you knock on the grille but if you don't
hit it and the mic is not standing on anything that is rocky that problem is
not such a big issue I think.

Edi Zubovic wrote: --Maybe I'm thinking in a wrong direction, but could a
modern ie. verylow noise, variable gain, preamp gain up a ribbon microphone?

Well that's hard to say in general. I have tried to use my ML52s through a
Mackie and a Behringer and they both got quite noisy at the gain stages that
the ribbons need. On the other hand I have a Soundcraft Sapphyre (yes JP
Gerrard, that one - I got the missing channel so now it's looking healthy
again) in my own place and it has no problem gaining them.



Ty Ford replied to this:
I don't understand why there's never any mentioning of the rather great
Oktava ML52. It's been reviewed many times over the years and has always
come out with bells on.

Where? When? keep a pretty close watch on mics and "many times over the
years" seems like an overstatement.


I read most european magazines and it has been reviewd in many of those so
maybe you're reading american ones.


I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the
more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic
or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.

Ribbon mics don't have the hf response for a good sounding acoustic
guitar.
They go away pretty fast after 10 kHz. Ribbon mics have no "air." You
really
need a condenser for that unless you have a really nasty sounding acoustic
guitar and there are some of those out there. Guitar AMPS, however, now
you're talkin'.


Which of course is what I meant, guitar amps. Not great or even semi great
for acoustic guitar.

[Scott Fraser]

The thing about a transformer is it gives you noiseless gain. Typical

current mic preamp topologies provide near theoretical noise
performance
with a 200 ohm source but fare much worse with a really low source like
a
ribbon. Bipolar trasistors typically have their best noise performance
looking into about 5K ohms. Rupert knew this well and used a 2:1
transformer to give his mic pres a 1K2 input inpedance.

Yes, although there are transformerless mic pres which are far quieter
than Rupert Neve's typical designs.

Scott Fraser

[Scott Fraser]

Ribbon mics don't have the hf response for a good sounding acoustic
guitar.
They go away pretty fast after 10 kHz. Ribbon mics have no "air." You really
need a condenser for that unless you have a really nasty sounding acoustic
guitar and there are some of those out there.

Just to corroborate, last week I was recording a pipa, a Chinese nylon
string lute with an extremely sharp attack, quick decay & a tendency
toward harshness. Seeking to tame the bright high end I initially put
up a Coles 4038, & upon first hearing it, we all unanimously agreed it
no longer sounded like a pipa. Ended up with a TLM170 into an HV3.

Scott Fraser

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Fraser wrote:
Ribbon mics don't have the hf response for a good sounding acoustic
guitar.
They go away pretty fast after 10 kHz. Ribbon mics have no "air." You really
need a condenser for that unless you have a really nasty sounding acoustic
guitar and there are some of those out there.

Just to corroborate, last week I was recording a pipa, a Chinese nylon
string lute with an extremely sharp attack, quick decay & a tendency
toward harshness. Seeking to tame the bright high end I initially put
up a Coles 4038, & upon first hearing it, we all unanimously agreed it
no longer sounded like a pipa. Ended up with a TLM170 into an HV3.

Ribbon mikes don't have the best extension, but the 4038 doesn't have ANY
top end at all. I really don't like the 4038... it just sounds so muffled
on everything to me. Try a 4040 some time, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ian Bell]

Scott Fraser wrote:


Yes, although there are transformerless mic pres which are far quieter
than Rupert Neve's typical designs.

Scott Fraser

Yes and no. Many current transformerless designs will achieve a better noise
figure then Neve designs of 30 years ago *under the conditions of
measurement* which usually means maximum gain. I'll even ignore the fact
that most Neve mic pres had 10dB more maximum gain than most current
designs and a few dBs more headroom. The point I want to make is that the
measurement conditions bear little relation to the operating conditions the
pre will normally be used under. At more normal gain settings the better
gain structure and lower output noise of a Neve mean the achieved S/N of
the Neve is better.

Lastly I would disagree that transformerlees mic pres are *far* quieter than
Rupert's typical designs. Rupert's designs achieved typical noise figures
of 4dB at maximum gain. I doubt the best of today's designs achieve better
than 1dB noise figure so at best they can be 3dB quieter.

IAn

[Scott Fraser]

Yes and no. Many current transformerless designs will achieve a better noise
figure then Neve designs of 30 years ago *under the conditions of
measurement* which usually means maximum gain.

That would be the conditions I'm referencing. RCA 77DXs on strings,
Neve 31105s at 65 to 70 db gain. Basically too noisy to use as
recorded.

I'll even ignore the fact
that most Neve mic pres had 10dB more maximum gain than most current
designs and a few dBs more headroom. The point I want to make is that the
measurement conditions bear little relation to the operating conditions the
pre will normally be used under. At more normal gain settings the better
gain structure and lower output noise of a Neve mean the achieved S/N of
the Neve is better.

Since we're talking ribbon mic application here, I think maximum gain
must be assumed.

Lastly I would disagree that transformerlees mic pres are *far* quieter than
Rupert's typical designs.

I didn't generalize about all transformerless designs, just that there
are those which are quieter.

Rupert's designs achieved typical noise figures
of 4dB at maximum gain. I doubt the best of today's designs achieve better
than 1dB noise figure so at best they can be 3dB quieter.

3 db is what I feel is fairly substantial, & pretty well matches my
anecdotal experiences using ribbons with Neve 31105s & 1081s, as well
as Neve-designed Focusrites, compared to Millennia & GML
transformerless designs.

Scott Fraser

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:22:26 -0400, HKC wrote
(in article ):

I wouldn't recommend buying a ribbon mic until you have covered all the more
all round types of mics. When you have that by all means buy a ribbon mic
or
two I love mine and use them regularly for overheads and guitar.

Ribbon mics don't have the hf response for a good sounding acoustic
guitar.
They go away pretty fast after 10 kHz. Ribbon mics have no "air." You
really
need a condenser for that unless you have a really nasty sounding acoustic
guitar and there are some of those out there. Guitar AMPS, however, now
you're talkin'.


Which of course is what I meant, guitar amps. Not great or even semi great
for acoustic guitar.

HKC,

Right guitar amps, not acoustic guitars. I think the point bears repeating.
I've run across too many posts where ribbons and guitars are mentioned. I've
tried almost every ribbon but the AEA on my Martin over the years including
powered Royers and wrote an extensive article in support of ribbon mics about
five years ago for PAR.

My point here is that ribbon mics are good for some things (I used my M160 on
a rack of chimes and finger cymbals last month). But a ribbon mic on acoustic
guitar isn't a good match unless you have a particularly nasty sounding
guitar.....or a banjo......maybe a dobro, but the last time I recorded dobro
here I used a Schoeps cmc641 and liked it quite a lot.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Scott Fraser]

Ribbon mikes don't have the best extension, but the 4038 doesn't have ANY
top end at all.

Maybe ever so slightly more than my B & O, but mainly it just sounded
lo-fi, in a non-interesting way.

I really don't like the 4038... it just sounds so muffled
on everything to me.

The description by one of Kronos was that the pipa sounded like it had
rubber bands for strings.

Try a 4040 some time, though.

It would have to be a step up.

Scott Fraser

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Fraser wrote:
Ribbon mikes don't have the best extension, but the 4038 doesn't have ANY
top end at all.

Maybe ever so slightly more than my B & O, but mainly it just sounded
lo-fi, in a non-interesting way.

The B&O/Speiden never had much top end either... and not much output at all.
To be honest, I never found them particularly useful either.

I really don't like the 4038... it just sounds so muffled
on everything to me.

The description by one of Kronos was that the pipa sounded like it had
rubber bands for strings.

That sounds about right.

Try a 4040 some time, though.

It would have to be a step up.

It's a bunch of steps up. It's the only ribbon I have ever tried that actually
comes close to passing the key jingle test.

The Crowley-Tripp Vocalist is worth trying too, in spite of some pattern control
issues. Also much more top end (in part because the ribbon is much lower mass
than typical old ribbons).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Fraser]

The B&O/Speiden never had much top end either... and not much output
at all.
To be honest, I never found them particularly useful either.

Alto & tenor sax, close miked. However, even players who ask for a
really dark, smoky, rounded off sound end up requesting a little HF
boost when we mix. Lately I've gone to using an M149 on reeds. The B &
O also sounds good on some basses, mixed with a KM84, but generally the
noise involved with the amount of gain required necessitates some NR
work & basically isn't all that worthwhile. I've concluded that I'm
probably the only guy in recording who is still waiting to see what the
emperor is wearing when it comes to the much heralded wonderfulness of
ribbon mics.

Scott Fraser

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Fraser wrote:

Alto & tenor sax, close miked. However, even players who ask for a
really dark, smoky, rounded off sound end up requesting a little HF
boost when we mix. Lately I've gone to using an M149 on reeds. The B &
O also sounds good on some basses, mixed with a KM84, but generally the
noise involved with the amount of gain required necessitates some NR
work & basically isn't all that worthwhile. I've concluded that I'm
probably the only guy in recording who is still waiting to see what the
emperor is wearing when it comes to the much heralded wonderfulness of
ribbon mics.

Go try the Coles 4040. If you don't like that, well, maybe you just don't
like ribbon mikes.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[david correia]

In article ,
Ty Ford wrote:

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:10:31 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

JP

The Amek Neve 9098 pre did wonders for the ribbons when I reviewed it. It has
a tranny front end.

Not all tranny front ends are step up. The one in the STT-1 isn't.

Regards,

Ty Ford




Ty,


I thought the 9098 had a transformerless input, using something Neve
calls a "transformer like amplifier" instead?

Or is the pre in the 9098 eq different than the standalone 9098 dual pre?





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 06:03:26 -0400, david correia wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Ty Ford wrote:

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:10:31 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article ):

We're talking about ribon mics here. You need a step up transformer after
the ribbon. There is (currently?) no way around it.

JP

The Amek Neve 9098 pre did wonders for the ribbons when I reviewed it. It
has
a tranny front end.

Not all tranny front ends are step up. The one in the STT-1 isn't.

Regards,

Ty Ford




Ty,


I thought the 9098 had a transformerless input, using something Neve
calls a "transformer like amplifier" instead?

Or is the pre in the 9098 eq different than the standalone 9098 dual pre?

David,

Now that I think of it, I think you're right. Something about that circuit,
however, was kinder to my ribbons; m160, 44B and 77DX. It really brought them
to life.

Regards,

Ty


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Scott Fraser]

Now that I think of it, I think you're right. Something about that
circuit,
however, was kinder to my ribbons; m160, 44B and 77DX. It really
brought them
to life.

One thing that circuit (9098) has is a whole lot of gain, which would
be the first requirement for use with ribbons.

Scott Fraser

[Scott Dorsey]

JP Gerard wrote:

Right, that's what I mean. For instance, I don't have any complaints about
the transfo of my AEA R84. When a transfo is obviously "poor" as in the RCA
74, I don't hesitate to do the swap.

I have always had complaints about every transformer I have used. They
are necessary evils, it's true, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't demand
better. I'm still hoping for a transformerless ribbon mike. The THAT
arrays in grounded-base configuration aren't quiet enough and that is
the quietest thing I have lying around my office. But SOMEDAY it will
happen...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."