Some of the inexpensive Chinese microphones on the market turn out to be
pretty bad investments, while others are considered to be quite good
(for the price, at least). Some of the bad ones can be improved
inexpensively by modding them - replacing capacitors, tubes,
transformers, even capsules.

One way to experiment with these mics without spending a lot of money is
to buy them direct from the factory. Of course, they expect you to buy
a rather large quantity.

There is a "group buy" of Chinese microphones being organized via a
Yahoo group. Because the US and European vendors who import and resell
some of these same mics don't like to see these group buys take place,
you probably won't see any direct comparisons with the various name
brands out there, but some of these same mics are being sold under names
that you'd recognize.

For the same reason, the details of the buy will not be widely discussed
on this forum. If you want to learn more of the details, please join
the mailing list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Gr...ophone_Import/

The eventual order will likely include tube condensers, solid-state
condensers, ribbon mics, and accessories.

There are over 300 members at present. Please read the FAQ and the
archive after joining. Many of your questions have already been answered.

Jim Gilliland wrote:
a rather large quantity.

There is a "group buy" of Chinese microphones being organized via a
Yahoo group. Because the US and European vendors who import and resell
some of these same mics don't like to see these group buys take place,
you probably won't see any direct comparisons with the various name
brands out there, but some of these same mics are being sold under names
that you'd recognize.

For the same reason, the details of the buy will not be widely discussed
on this forum. If you want to learn more of the details, please join
the mailing list.

These mics are usually stolen designs going out the back door of the
factory. Is that something that yuo'd like to be involved in? One of
the magazines-Mix?-has a letter from a mic designer detailing just such
a deal.
Phil Brown

On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:35:54 -0400, Jim Gilliland wrote
(in article ):

Some of the inexpensive Chinese microphones on the market turn out to be
pretty bad investments, while others are considered to be quite good
(for the price, at least). Some of the bad ones can be improved
inexpensively by modding them - replacing capacitors, tubes,
transformers, even capsules.

One way to experiment with these mics without spending a lot of money is
to buy them direct from the factory. Of course, they expect you to buy
a rather large quantity.

There is a "group buy" of Chinese microphones being organized via a
Yahoo group. Because the US and European vendors who import and resell
some of these same mics don't like to see these group buys take place,
you probably won't see any direct comparisons with the various name
brands out there, but some of these same mics are being sold under names
that you'd recognize.

For the same reason, the details of the buy will not be widely discussed
on this forum. If you want to learn more of the details, please join
the mailing list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Gr...ophone_Import/

The eventual order will likely include tube condensers, solid-state
condensers, ribbon mics, and accessories.

There are over 300 members at present. Please read the FAQ and the
archive after joining. Many of your questions have already been answered.

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

"philcycles" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jim Gilliland wrote:
a rather large quantity.

There is a "group buy" of Chinese microphones being organized via a
Yahoo group. Because the US and European vendors who import and resell
some of these same mics don't like to see these group buys take place,
you probably won't see any direct comparisons with the various name
brands out there, but some of these same mics are being sold under names
that you'd recognize.

For the same reason, the details of the buy will not be widely discussed
on this forum. If you want to learn more of the details, please join
the mailing list.

These mics are usually stolen designs going out the back door of the
factory. Is that something that yuo'd like to be involved in? One of
the magazines-Mix?-has a letter from a mic designer detailing just such
a deal.
Phil Brown

The Chinese have been making mikes for years before they appeared on the
U.S. market. As with many other of their products, they use sophisticated
CAD and 3D imaging techniques to make perfect copies of designs by others.
The Yanmar diesel engine is an example, now produced by a multitude of
companies in China. The parts are actually interchangeable with Yanmar.

The Chinese mikes are knock-offs of European designs. Many of these mics
are very similar to each other. I have examined the capsules of the Rode
NT-4, and the Studio Projects C-4. The capsules are 99% identical. And what
are they copies of? Schoeps! Likewise, the Marshal MXL603s is a copy, or
ripoff, of Neumann. Thus, in MOST cases, it is exceedingly disingenuous for
a U.S. designer to claim ripoff, when his own company started by importing
Chinese-Euro ripoffs, let's say, in 2000.

There are, of course, exceptions. Some U.S. manufacturers now have their own
designs. Some are actually assembled here to avoid the "back door" business.
But don't forget: to this day, many of these companies make the better part
of their money on cannibalized Neumann and Schoeps designs that they had or
nothing to do with the creation of. I don't have a moral problem buying a
mike in that category from the manufacturer. On the other hand, if the mike
is obviously of original design, I personally choose to pass.

Of course, if it breaks, that's the end of it. I wouldn't try sending it
into Studio Projects for repair. Chinese quality control is notorioius. The
importers provide long warranties to make up for it.

Ty Ford wrote:
have already been answered.

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

Ty



Mics? Sheesh...I though these were penis enlargement pills. Yo Jim,
cancel my order...

-CS

philcycles wrote:

These mics are usually stolen designs going out the back door of the
factory. Is that something that yuo'd like to be involved in? One of
the magazines-Mix?-has a letter from a mic designer detailing just such
a deal.

I'll simply state that that is not the case here. If you want to know
more, the mailing list will provide details. If not, please feel free
to ignore. There are many good reasons why someone might not want to
take part in this.

I haven't read the Mix letter, but as I stated, there are a lot of
importers who don't like these buys. So it is possible that the letter
in question carries some bias, and perhaps even misinformation, based on
the fact that he sees his business being undermined. But the fact
remains that these purchases are being made under the exact same terms
and conditions as the mics that he buys from the same factory.

If you're arguing that the Chinese are copying the designs of existing,
respected mic manufacturers, I don't think that is news to anyone.

It's not my intention to get into a lengthy debate about this here. If
it's not for you, please ignore it and move on. BTW, I'm not the
organizer of this deal, just a possible participant. I just thought
that there might be some other folks here who would be interested.

Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen. Once
again, the internet is changing the way business is executed, and in
ways that aren't always anticipated.

Jim Gilliland wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen. Once
again, the internet is changing the way business is executed, and in
ways that aren't always anticipated.

These aren't commodity items like toasters. What if you buy 3 mics and
2 sound terrible. Or die after 6 months.What have you saved?
Phil Brown

Well, that's the tradeoff in risk that you take for the low price. On the
other hand, all three mics might be just fine and you would then have a
pretty good deal. No one is hiding the ball here. As Jim said, there are
lots of good reasons not to particpate. If your risk tolerance isn't
sufficient, you should pass on the opportunity. Check out the Yahoo Group
FAQ and see if the proposed deal works or you or not.

"philcycles" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jim Gilliland wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen. Once
again, the internet is changing the way business is executed, and in
ways that aren't always anticipated.

These aren't commodity items like toasters. What if you buy 3 mics and
2 sound terrible. Or die after 6 months.What have you saved?
Phil Brown

Jim Gilliland wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen.

Trouble is, in the case of many Chinese microphones, the middlemen are the
ONLY ones performing ANY kind of quality control. So you'd probably be well
advised to buy at least ten units of EACH mic you want to keep ONE of. If
you do that, do you still save any money?

Assuming your example is true, then the selling price of the one good
mic from the middleman would have to include the cost for all 10, plus
a % markup on the total cost. Otherwise the middleman wouldn't be
making any money.
So at the very least, you'd be saving the middleman's profit margin on
the toal cost for all 10.

The short answer is yes, even if your negative scenario is true,
you'd still be saving money. But I'm betting your example is somewhat
hyperbolic.

-glenn



Agent 86 wrote:

Trouble is, in the case of many Chinese microphones, the middlemen are the
ONLY ones performing ANY kind of quality control. So you'd probably be well
advised to buy at least ten units of EACH mic you want to keep ONE of. If
you do that, do you still save any money?

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think I've seen the Yahoo group you mentioned, and as I recall, the
focus (at least at the time) was on ribbon mics, similar to the
Nady-branded copy of the AEA "easier to manufacture" version of the RCA
77.

The letter is in the July issue of EQ and is from John Nady.
Phil Brown

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think I've seen the Yahoo group you mentioned, and as I recall, the
focus (at least at the time) was on ribbon mics, similar to the
Nady-branded copy of the AEA "easier to manufacture" version of the RCA
77.

While I'm well aware that this is not the first time this sort of thing
has been done, this particular group has only existed for a couple of
weeks. Yes, there was a prior group buy that was managed largely by the
same group of people, and yes, the focus of the prior group was ribbon
mics. In this new instance, the selection has grown somewhat, though
the source vendor is the same.

On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:52:13 -0400, Henri Minette wrote
(in article ):

Well, that's the tradeoff in risk that you take for the low price. On the
other hand, all three mics might be just fine and you would then have a
pretty good deal. No one is hiding the ball here. As Jim said, there are
lots of good reasons not to particpate. If your risk tolerance isn't
sufficient, you should pass on the opportunity. Check out the Yahoo Group
FAQ and see if the proposed deal works or you or not.

"philcycles" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jim Gilliland wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen. Once
again, the internet is changing the way business is executed, and in
ways that aren't always anticipated.

These aren't commodity items like toasters. What if you buy 3 mics and
2 sound terrible. Or die after 6 months.What have you saved?
Phil Brown


But see, mics at this level HAVE become commodity items. I'm not buying a mic
based on price. I'm buying on what it can do for me and my clients.

I like the idea of advancing technology and sales. I recently bought an
Olympus IR-300 digital camera for $178 on Amazon. 5 megapixels, Quicktime
video, audio only, rechargeable battery. I LOVE this camera. And it takes (to
my eye) amazing pictures. I shot my neighbors last weekend and they two
pictures I took were so good they are having them printed and framed.

This mic thing, however, is entirely too squinky for me.

Hey if buying cheap mics more cheaply works, go for it.

Regards,

Ty



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
. ..

I like the idea of advancing technology and sales. I recently bought an
Olympus IR-300 digital camera for $178 on Amazon. 5 megapixels, Quicktime
video, audio only, rechargeable battery. I LOVE this camera. And it takes
(to
my eye) amazing pictures. I shot my neighbors last weekend and they two
pictures I took were so good they are having them printed and framed.

I'm calling the police.

Peace,
Paul

"Paul Stamler" wrote ...
"Ty Ford" wrote ...

I like the idea of advancing technology and sales. I recently bought
an
Olympus IR-300 digital camera for $178 on Amazon. 5 megapixels,
Quicktime
video, audio only, rechargeable battery. I LOVE this camera. And it
takes
(to
my eye) amazing pictures. I shot my neighbors last weekend and they
two
pictures I took were so good they are having them printed and framed.

I'm calling the police.

Sounds like Ty already called the police if he managed to
frame the neighbors and the police are already printing them.

Jim Gilliland wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:

So jim, how long have you been selling mics?

vbg Not me! I haven't even decided for sure if I'm going to buy any.
But it is an interesting and increasingly common phenomenon - the use
of group buying power to reduce prices and eliminate middlemen. Once
again, the internet is changing the way business is executed, and in
ways that aren't always anticipated.

Once again, gullibility can be a powerful force for effective marketing.

So, when one of these cheapies goes belly-up mid session, what will be
the value of the money one thought to have saved? Who stands behind
these things? The manufacturer? Riiiiight...

--
ha

Paul Stamler wrote:

I'm calling the police.

But he said "squinky", and that says a lot.

--
ha

philcycles wrote:

These mics are usually stolen designs going out the back door of the
factory. Is that something that yuo'd like to be involved in? One of
the magazines-Mix?-has a letter from a mic designer detailing just such
a deal.

I found that letter kind of amusing. Nady took a US-made ribbon mike,
sent it to a Chinese factory and told them, "make some mikes like this."
The Chinese folks adapted that design, made it look a little different,
but then started turning them out, even copying the packaging of the
original mike and the numbers on the spec sheet.

Then, the folks at that factory started turning out the same mike for
other people, or alternatively they showed another factory how to make
them. Then they showed up on these shores under other names.

Mr. Nady is upset about this, because he thought they had an exclusive
on the design, in spite of the design first of all being a copy of an
American design, and secondly in spite of that same factory having a long
history of doing exactly that same thing.

Guys, if you send an exclusive design to China for manufacturing, it's not
going to be exclusive any more. If you teach the factory in China a
particular technique, soon other factories there will be using the same
technique.

From the standpoint of rapid technological advance, this is a good thing,
and it is the reason why Chinese products have improved substantially in
such a short amount of time. From the standpoint of intellectual property
rights, it's a terrible thing. But it's a fact, and it's been a fact for
so long that I can't imagine anyone would be so naive as to outsource
production without expecting it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I found that letter kind of amusing. Nady took a US-made ribbon mike,
sent it to a Chinese factory and told them, "make some mikes like this."
The Chinese folks adapted that design, made it look a little different,
but then started turning them out, even copying the packaging of the
original mike and the numbers on the spec sheet.

Even that is a bit of a stretch. I'm pretty sure that Alctron was
designing and/or making some of these designs before Nady even
approached them.

Then, the folks at that factory started turning out the same mike for
other people, or alternatively they showed another factory how to make
them. Then they showed up on these shores under other names.

Mr. Nady is upset about this, because he thought they had an exclusive
on the design, in spite of the design first of all being a copy of an
American design, and secondly in spite of that same factory having a long
history of doing exactly that same thing.

One of Alctron's customers (and it may well be Nady) is trying very hard
to intimidate Alctron into refusing to do business with the cooperative
group that is trying to purchase mics from them. It's an interesting
scenario. He may even succeed, but at what cost to his reputation?