I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations. The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

The first session obtained some gratifying results, given the limitations.
However, for those of you have been following this, the biggest problem
turned out not to be comb effects or space/boundary related issues.

The group I recorded had a pan-flutist, a violinist, an electric guitar, and
an electric mandolin. As is almost always the case with street performers,
they brought their own amplification, had it mixed the way they liked it,
and encouraged me to pick up their speakers. This would have guaranteed
all-around mediocrity. So I elected to pick up as much direct sound of the
flute and violin as possible, by positioning the handheld Rode NT-4 in an
appropriate way. That part worked extremely well. But the electrics are
still heard, but with loss of tonality and definition, while string noise is
emphasized.

The footprint of this project is me standing. Nothing touches the ground. It
occurred to me that one way to fix this would be to use the 3rd and 4th
tracks of the 744T for the instrument pickups, which I would mix in as
accents. There are two issues:

1. Wandering around NYC, where ConEd manholes explode with regularity, there
is the distinct possibility that eventually, I'd hook up to something at a
distinctly different electric potential from "me", enough to blow up an
input, if not me. Please suggest appropriate transformer parts to provide
complete DC isolation, going from an instrument pickup to balanced low
impedance.

2. A preamp is mandatory right? With impedance matching, is it possible the
line-level inputs of the excellent 744T could catch an instrument pickup?
This is important because of all the walking I do with this rig. Every pound
and inch counts.

3. Has anyone ever tried running a Midiman DMP-3 off DC? I would prefer not
spending another $700 for a preamp at this point.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations. The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

The first session obtained some gratifying results, given the limitations.
However, for those of you have been following this, the biggest problem
turned out not to be comb effects or space/boundary related issues.

The group I recorded had a pan-flutist, a violinist, an electric guitar,
and an electric mandolin. As is almost always the case with street
performers, they brought their own amplification, had it mixed the way
they liked it, and encouraged me to pick up their speakers. This would
have guaranteed all-around mediocrity. So I elected to pick up as much
direct sound of the flute and violin as possible, by positioning the
handheld Rode NT-4 in an appropriate way. That part worked extremely well.
But the electrics are still heard, but with loss of tonality and
definition, while string noise is emphasized.

The footprint of this project is me standing. Nothing touches the ground.
It occurred to me that one way to fix this would be to use the 3rd and 4th
tracks of the 744T for the instrument pickups, which I would mix in as
accents. There are two issues:

1. Wandering around NYC, where ConEd manholes explode with regularity,
there is the distinct possibility that eventually, I'd hook up to
something at a distinctly different electric potential from "me", enough
to blow up an input, if not me. Please suggest appropriate transformer
parts to provide complete DC isolation, going from an instrument pickup to
balanced low impedance.

Why not just use a couple of wireless transmitters from the pickups or the
amps? Gives you the maximum freedom and quite frankly I doubt you are going
to improve your quality all that much by hard wiring to the instruments.
Lectrosonics makes a 1/4" cable to 5 pin mini-xlr that fits the bill
perfectly. Or how about mics on the amps? You are of course trying to
document these street musicians and the sound of their cheap little portable
amps is of course "their" sound and part of the document.

"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Why not just use a couple of wireless transmitters from the pickups or the
amps? Gives you the maximum freedom and quite frankly I doubt you are
going to improve your quality all that much by hard wiring to the
instruments. Lectrosonics makes a 1/4" cable to 5 pin mini-xlr that fits
the bill perfectly. Or how about mics on the amps? You are of course
trying to document these street musicians and the sound of their cheap
little portable amps is of course "their" sound and part of the document.

Document, yes, but I am also an audiophile. The flute and violin were
captured with startling clarity. The direct capture set the bar for the
strings. I don't want to go backwards on that. Wireless might, or it might
not, but it's expensive to try.

The smallest equipment load would actually just be cables to the pickups.

Robert Morein wrote:
I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations. The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

The first session obtained some gratifying results, given the limitations.
However, for those of you have been following this, the biggest problem
turned out not to be comb effects or space/boundary related issues.

Of course not. You're using a single point stereo mic. No comb effects
or space/boundary related issues (whatever they are).

The group I recorded had a pan-flutist, a violinist, an electric guitar, and
an electric mandolin. As is almost always the case with street performers,
they brought their own amplification, had it mixed the way they liked it,
and encouraged me to pick up their speakers. This would have guaranteed
all-around mediocrity.

I don't think so. If they're experienced, they knew how to set up to
balance their sound for a listener several feet away. That's how you
should have recorded it.

So I elected to pick up as much direct sound of the
flute and violin as possible, by positioning the handheld Rode NT-4 in an
appropriate way. That part worked extremely well. But the electrics are
still heard, but with loss of tonality and definition, while string noise is
emphasized.

That's because you had the mic too far away from the amplifiers and
pointed in the wrong direction. If you had put your ear where the mic
was, you would have heard what was wrong. If you had monitored your
recording, you would have heard what was wrong. If you trusted your
ears rather than your eyes and you instinct, you would have stood where
the group was well balanced, put your mic there, and you would have had
a good representation of what they sounded like in natural habitat.
Live and learn.

1. Wandering around NYC, where ConEd manholes explode with regularity, there
is the distinct possibility that eventually, I'd hook up to something at a
distinctly different electric potential from "me", enough to blow up an
input, if not me.

Aren't the group's amplifiers battery powered? Isn't all of your gear
battery powered? That should isolate you from the power lines. The only
thing you need to worry about is standing on top of a manhole cover
when it blows off.

2. A preamp is mandatory right? With impedance matching, is it possible the
line-level inputs of the excellent 744T could catch an instrument pickup?

No. You need a DI (direct box). This matches an instrument pickup to a
mic input, and if you get one with a transformer, you'll be isolated.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations.
The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

The first session obtained some gratifying results, given the
limitations.
However, for those of you have been following this, the biggest problem
turned out not to be comb effects or space/boundary related issues.

Of course not. You're using a single point stereo mic. No comb effects
or space/boundary related issues (whatever they are).

The group I recorded had a pan-flutist, a violinist, an electric guitar,
and
an electric mandolin. As is almost always the case with street
performers,
they brought their own amplification, had it mixed the way they liked it,
and encouraged me to pick up their speakers. This would have guaranteed
all-around mediocrity.

I don't think so. If they're experienced, they knew how to set up to
balance their sound for a listener several feet away. That's how you
should have recorded it.

There is no right or wrong, but I have a preference. The flute and violin
were captured with startling clarity. The direct capture set the bar for the
strings. I don't want to go backwards on that.

So I elected to pick up as much direct sound of the
flute and violin as possible, by positioning the handheld Rode NT-4 in an
appropriate way. That part worked extremely well. But the electrics are
still heard, but with loss of tonality and definition, while string noise
is
emphasized.

That's because you had the mic too far away from the amplifiers and
pointed in the wrong direction. If you had put your ear where the mic
was, you would have heard what was wrong. If you had monitored your
recording, you would have heard what was wrong. If you trusted your
ears rather than your eyes and you instinct, you would have stood where
the group was well balanced, put your mic there, and you would have had
a good representation of what they sounded like in natural habitat.
Live and learn.

No, Mike, that's not what I want. I want, and got, the flute and violin with
real high fidelity. You can't argue that with me. It's personal preference.
The result was not "wrong", because I prefer the result to their
amplification. You do it your way, I'll do it mine, but let's not make
pronouncements.

1. Wandering around NYC, where ConEd manholes explode with regularity,
there
is the distinct possibility that eventually, I'd hook up to something at
a
distinctly different electric potential from "me", enough to blow up an
input, if not me.

Aren't the group's amplifiers battery powered? Isn't all of your gear
battery powered? That should isolate you from the power lines. The only
thing you need to worry about is standing on top of a manhole cover
when it blows off.

2. A preamp is mandatory right? With impedance matching, is it possible
the
line-level inputs of the excellent 744T could catch an instrument pickup?

No. You need a DI (direct box). This matches an instrument pickup to a
mic input, and if you get one with a transformer, you'll be isolated.

Thanks. Looks like I need a preamp with DI for channels 3 & 4, because
channels 1 & 2 will continue to be used for mikes.

To be honest, I don't know how you think you're getting "high fidelity" on
the streets of NYC.
I agree with Mike, I'd be getting the buskers the way they want the world to
hear them.
--
Martin Harrington
www.lendanear-sound.com

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
ups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations.
The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

The first session obtained some gratifying results, given the
limitations.
However, for those of you have been following this, the biggest problem
turned out not to be comb effects or space/boundary related issues.

Of course not. You're using a single point stereo mic. No comb effects
or space/boundary related issues (whatever they are).

The group I recorded had a pan-flutist, a violinist, an electric guitar,
and
an electric mandolin. As is almost always the case with street
performers,
they brought their own amplification, had it mixed the way they liked
it,
and encouraged me to pick up their speakers. This would have guaranteed
all-around mediocrity.

I don't think so. If they're experienced, they knew how to set up to
balance their sound for a listener several feet away. That's how you
should have recorded it.

There is no right or wrong, but I have a preference. The flute and violin
were captured with startling clarity. The direct capture set the bar for
the strings. I don't want to go backwards on that.

So I elected to pick up as much direct sound of the
flute and violin as possible, by positioning the handheld Rode NT-4 in
an
appropriate way. That part worked extremely well. But the electrics are
still heard, but with loss of tonality and definition, while string
noise is
emphasized.

That's because you had the mic too far away from the amplifiers and
pointed in the wrong direction. If you had put your ear where the mic
was, you would have heard what was wrong. If you had monitored your
recording, you would have heard what was wrong. If you trusted your
ears rather than your eyes and you instinct, you would have stood where
the group was well balanced, put your mic there, and you would have had
a good representation of what they sounded like in natural habitat.
Live and learn.

No, Mike, that's not what I want. I want, and got, the flute and violin
with real high fidelity. You can't argue that with me. It's personal
preference. The result was not "wrong", because I prefer the result to
their amplification. You do it your way, I'll do it mine, but let's not
make pronouncements.

1. Wandering around NYC, where ConEd manholes explode with regularity,
there
is the distinct possibility that eventually, I'd hook up to something at
a
distinctly different electric potential from "me", enough to blow up an
input, if not me.

Aren't the group's amplifiers battery powered? Isn't all of your gear
battery powered? That should isolate you from the power lines. The only
thing you need to worry about is standing on top of a manhole cover
when it blows off.

2. A preamp is mandatory right? With impedance matching, is it possible
the
line-level inputs of the excellent 744T could catch an instrument
pickup?

No. You need a DI (direct box). This matches an instrument pickup to a
mic input, and if you get one with a transformer, you'll be isolated.

Thanks. Looks like I need a preamp with DI for channels 3 & 4, because
channels 1 & 2 will continue to be used for mikes.

"Martin Harrington" wrote in message
...
To be honest, I don't know how you think you're getting "high fidelity" on
the streets of NYC.
I agree with Mike, I'd be getting the buskers the way they want the world
to hear them.
--
To be honest, I made a choice about the sound I prefer to capture. You do it
your way. I'll do it mine.

On Thu, 25 May 2006 03:01:28 -0400, "Robert Morein"
schreef:


"Martin Harrington" wrote in message
...
To be honest, I don't know how you think you're getting "high fidelity" on
the streets of NYC.
I agree with Mike, I'd be getting the buskers the way they want the world
to hear them.
--
To be honest, I made a choice about the sound I prefer to capture. You do it
your way. I'll do it mine.

Would be interesting to actually hear what you recorded. Any
possibility that i, or we can listen to it ? ( FTP )

R ( is getting curious )





--
Http://www.xs4all.nl/~tuig/index.html

Robert Morein wrote:

No, Mike, that's not what I want. I want, and got, the flute and violin with
real high fidelity. You can't argue that with me. It's personal preference.
The result was not "wrong", because I prefer the result to their
amplification. You do it your way, I'll do it mine, but let's not make
pronouncements.

It was wrong because you didn't record the group, you recorded the
violinist and pan player. You might as well have asked the bass and
guitar players to sit out while you recorded the flute and violin with
absolute clarity.

Your four-track approach would indeed allow you the flexibility to get
better direct sound from each instrument and mix them to your taste
later, but still I think it might be important to record the sound of
the amplifiers unless they were really crummy. It's part of the sound
of the instrument. But then I don't know what your violin sound is
like. If you record that with "too much clarity" (like put the mic too
close to the instrument) you'll end up with a nice, clear recording of
something that doesn't sound like a violin. But that may be your goal
so, yeah, I won't argue with you until I hear your final recording.

Hello Robert,
after all, your the guy with the cans on,what you
decide sounds good is the right choice.If an instrument or more lacks
presence compared to the others,then ofcourse you do what you have to
make it be heard.Maybe the musicians don't have the gear they wanted
to get a better mix out of thier amps.Or maybe that is the ''sound''
they want the world to hear.I don't know,I'm here your there.
No right or wrong in soundrecording,rules are
and were meant to be broken if we can still call it the ''art of sound
recording ''.
I also worked on a street musician doc that took
place in several countries.
I decided then to get the raw sound as natural as possible with a MKH
60 without having to accentuate any instruments with iso mics.It worked
great for me as it integrated the surrounding noise such as the
subway,traffic,crowds etc...
Each city I went to had its unique ''noise'' that surrounded the
musicians,this ofcourse added the enviromental color to the mix which I
thought was important in defining where the music was being
recorded.The sound of the musicians was sometimes muddy or the vocals
were drowned out.......but I figured street music should not be
recorded as if I was in a controlled enviroment like a studio.It was my
artistic,creative decision which the Producer and Director agreed to
and loved the final results.My choice,MY RECORDING.
Regards,
Joe Cancilla.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:

No, Mike, that's not what I want. I want, and got, the flute and violin
with
real high fidelity. You can't argue that with me. It's personal
preference.
The result was not "wrong", because I prefer the result to their
amplification. You do it your way, I'll do it mine, but let's not make
pronouncements.

It was wrong because you didn't record the group, you recorded the
violinist and pan player. You might as well have asked the bass and
guitar players to sit out while you recorded the flute and violin with
absolute clarity.

Your four-track approach would indeed allow you the flexibility to get
better direct sound from each instrument and mix them to your taste
later, but still I think it might be important to record the sound of
the amplifiers unless they were really crummy.

They were really crummy. But I actually agree with you. If I had more
channels I would.

It's part of the sound
of the instrument. But then I don't know what your violin sound is
like. If you record that with "too much clarity" (like put the mic too
close to the instrument) you'll end up with a nice, clear recording of
something that doesn't sound like a violin.

I did not do that. The mic was 10 feet away from the flutist and violin.

But that may be your goal
so, yeah, I won't argue with you until I hear your final recording.

I can understand your skepticism. But the result was way, way above
expectations. As for the philosophy of reporting vs. creative reporting,
there are three possible experiences:

1. how they actually sound,
2. how they wish they sounded
3. a way that people think they hear them, because they are influenced by
the live performers in front of them.

I chose to do it in the most flattering way possible.. For some reason, the
direct sound from those instruments embellished what came from the speakers
in a very positive way. These performers do not want to use reinforcement.
It's an evil necessity for them.

PS: A DI wont do you much good going into a line level input (3&4 on
the 744t)

....and a suggestion: If you are going to ask for advice on a
professional forum, at least make sure you have done your research and
know what you are saying before you start throwing up walls and being
argumentative. (this is just advice. Of course, YOUR way is ALWAYS the
right way for you). Anyway...

Whenever I do live music recordings (with fair frequency), I simply
find the best sounding spot in the room with the truest stereo spread
and throw up a stereo pair. I have an XY rig on a stereo bar mounted to
a PSC flexiclamp. I generally find my desired mounting point a few feet
above the audiences head (in smaller venues), clamp my mic rig up, run
cables across the ceiling and down one wall, and walk away until the
show. My pre-performace setup takes all of 5 minutes.

I know this isnt exactly what you are doing, but I though I would share
anyway as I am generally opperating on the same principals you are. My
primary concern when recording live music is to capture the performace
as true to the momen as possible while still getting a recording that
both I, and the musicians are happy with. Sometimes we needlessly
complicate matters for ourselves and our clients (or in this case,
musicians) because we think it will be "best for the sound". I find
that when you start messing with peoples amp positions, amp settings,
close micing, etc... the most you are accomplishing is to kill the
performance (esp. in your case. these are not session musicians, they
are buskers).
If it is your job to document these performances as they are, do
yourself a favor and dont start experimenting on your clients dime.
Oh, and another favor you can do yourself: Use a bloody mic stand for
F's sake (and a shock given subway rumble both on the platform and
above on the street)

You will likely need some post parametric EQing to compensat for
frequency deficiencies in the Rode mics, just a heads up.

....and good luck


L. Wyatt Tuzo
Production Sound Mixer
Studio Recording Engineer
Live Recording Engineer
NYC

PS: A DI wont do you much good going into a line level input (3&4 on
the 744t)

....and a suggestion: If you are going to ask for advice on a
professional forum, at least make sure you have done your research and
know what you are saying before you start throwing up walls and being
argumentative. (this is just advice. Of course, YOUR way is ALWAYS the
right way for you). Anyway...

Whenever I do live music recordings (with fair frequency), I simply
find the best sounding spot in the room with the truest stereo spread
and throw up a stereo pair. I have an XY rig on a stereo bar mounted to
a PSC flexiclamp. I generally find my desired mounting point a few feet
above the audiences head (in smaller venues), clamp my mic rig up, run
cables across the ceiling and down one wall, and walk away until the
show. My pre-performace setup takes all of 5 minutes.

I know this isnt exactly what you are doing, but I though I would share
anyway as I am generally opperating on the same principals you are. My
primary concern when recording live music is to capture the performace
as true to the momen as possible while still getting a recording that
both I, and the musicians are happy with. Sometimes we needlessly
complicate matters for ourselves and our clients (or in this case,
musicians) because we think it will be "best for the sound". I find
that when you start messing with peoples amp positions, amp settings,
close micing, etc... the most you are accomplishing is to kill the
performance (esp. in your case. these are not session musicians, they
are buskers).
If it is your job to document these performances as they are, do
yourself a favor and dont start experimenting on your clients dime.
Oh, and another favor you can do yourself: Use a bloody mic stand for
F's sake (and a shock given subway rumble both on the platform and
above on the street)

You will likely need some post parametric EQing to compensat for
frequency deficiencies in the Rode mics, just a heads up.

....and good luck


L. Wyatt Tuzo
Production Sound Mixer
Studio Recording Engineer
Live Recording Engineer
NYC

Robert Morein wrote:
The mic was 10 feet away from the flutist and violin.

Good grief! How far from the flute and violin were the guitar and bass
amplifiers? I would think that 10 feet away would be about the maximum
distance you'd want to be from a quartet, and probably quite a bit less
given the highly reflective environment of a subway.

On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:15 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations. The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

So record what they sound like in that situation. Amps and all. If
you find talent you feel deserving of a studio recording, take them
into a studio.

Your safety question is only relevant if these performers have somehow
negotiated a mains power feed for their amps. I'd suspect they are
using battery equipment.

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:15 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

I am engaged in a NYC public space recording project, involving random
encounters with musicians on the streets, subways, and train stations. The
equipment is a Sound Devices 744T and a Rode NT-4.

So record what they sound like in that situation.

I do not like the above choice. I chose an alternative (see further up this
thread.) The results were gratifying. I will continue. I solicit suggestions
for improvement, not negation of the goal.

Amps and all. If
you find talent you feel deserving of a studio recording, take them
into a studio.

Lawrence, see further up this thread. I like what I'm doing.