I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where the arms can
be changed do the reviewers change arms to eliminate that variable.
Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed. As such
it seems that most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his
assumes the TT itself has the least effect of the 3 on sound)

"MD" wrote in message
...
I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where the arms can be
changed do the reviewers change arms to eliminate that variable.
Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed. As such it
seems that most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his
assumes the TT itself has the least effect of the 3 on sound)

I share your frustration.... of all the equipment reviews...I find
turntable reviews absolutely the least useful, unless maybe one
plans to duplicate the exact setup.

I can really understand why a premium service provider
like Gene Rubin can be very useful in this market.
Note: I've never had the priviledge of visiting his place
but those I know that have had nothing but positive things
to say.

ScottW

In article EwJbg.31246$fG3.28465@dukeread09,
"ScottW" wrote:

"MD" wrote in message
...
I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where the arms can be
changed do the reviewers change arms to eliminate that variable.
Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed. As such it
seems that most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his
assumes the TT itself has the least effect of the 3 on sound)

I share your frustration.... of all the equipment reviews...I find
turntable reviews absolutely the least useful, unless maybe one
plans to duplicate the exact setup.

I can really understand why a premium service provider
like Gene Rubin can be very useful in this market.
Note: I've never had the priviledge of visiting his place
but those I know that have had nothing but positive things
to say.

ScottW

Gene is fantastic.

MD wrote:
I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where the arms can
be changed do the reviewers change arms to eliminate that variable.
Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed. As such
it seems that most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his
assumes the TT itself has the least effect of the 3 on sound)

An excellent question for John Atkinson or K. Rubison to
answer.
They have been following this foorum in the past
Ludovic Mirabel

"MD" wrote in message


I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where
the arms can be changed do the reviewers change arms to
eliminate that variable.

Obviously, the purpose of the reviews is to sell a particular combination of
components, not shed light on vinyl playback technology.

Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed.

Why bother? That's work!

Besides, most reviews of vinyl playback equipment include zero measurements
of relevant parameters like speed stability, mechanical noise, frequency
response, etc.

As such it seems that
most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his assumes the TT
itself has the least effect of the 3
on sound)

Take it as tacit admission that LP playback technology is about sentiment,
not performance. You don't find many detailed track tests of Model T Fords,
right?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"MD" wrote in message



I have read a lot of TT reviews. On almost no case where
the arms can be changed do the reviewers change arms to
eliminate that variable.


Obviously, the purpose of the reviews is to sell a particular combination of
components, not shed light on vinyl playback technology.


Additionally there are times when the cartridge is not changed.


Why bother? That's work!

Besides, most reviews of vinyl playback equipment include zero measurements
of relevant parameters like speed stability, mechanical noise, frequency
response, etc.


As such it seems that
most reviews are really about the cartridge and arm. (his assumes the TT
itself has the least effect of the 3
on sound)


Take it as tacit admission that LP playback technology is about sentiment,
not performance. You don't find many detailed track tests of Model T Fords,
right?


The purpose of my post was not to incite an anti-TT discussion.
Especially since I prefer analog over digital

MD wrote:

The purpose of my post was not to incite an anti-TT discussion.
Especially since I prefer analog over digital

There's quite a few people whose interest in analogue is limited to
bashing it.
Personally, I look at it this way... I've hundreds of albums and CDs. I
want them both to sound great.

I recently replaced my cart on TT (a Mitusbishi LT-30, its a linear
tracker). And I was going through the Hi-Fi News Test record and
found that this album has a blank spot between each track.... no
groove. So since I put my new cart on... my arm refuses to proceeed
to the next track.... in fact if I set the needle down before the track
it will slide back to the end of the preceding track.

Note.. there is no antiskating on this arm.... So I did a careful
channel check and all seems fine.... but the fact the arm tends to move
right would indicate the stylus overhand is a bit short. I double
checked the setup using the supplied overhang gauge and it seems right
on. I wonder if this phenom could be used to set the overhang more
precisely than the gauge allows. Seems like if I had the stylus dead
on so the contact point of the record was moving directly away from the
base...there'd be no movement of the arm left or right.
Anybody run into this and used real blank (not an unmodulated groove)
to set overhang?

ScottW

"ScottW" wrote in message
oups.com

Note.. there is no antiskating on this arm.... So I did a
careful channel check and all seems fine.... but the fact
the arm tends to move right would indicate the stylus
overhand is a bit short.

I presume you mean overhang.

More likely, the arm tends to move right due to some unresolved source of
force on the arm, forcing it to the right.

I double checked the setup
using the supplied overhang gauge and it seems right on.

That follows.

I wonder if this phenom could be used to set the overhang
more precisely than the gauge allows.

No, bad causuality.

Seems like if I
had the stylus dead on so the contact point of the record
was moving directly away from the base...there'd be no
movement of the arm left or right.

Not necessarily.

Anybody run into this and used real blank (not an
unmodulated groove) to set overhang?

Doesn't matter as long as you have the height right when you set overhang.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"ScottW" wrote in message
oups.com

Note.. there is no antiskating on this arm.... So I did a
careful channel check and all seems fine.... but the fact
the arm tends to move right would indicate the stylus
overhand is a bit short.

I presume you mean overhang.

More likely, the arm tends to move right due to some unresolved source of
force on the arm, forcing it to the right.

I double checked the setup
using the supplied overhang gauge and it seems right on.

That follows.

I wonder if this phenom could be used to set the overhang
more precisely than the gauge allows.

No, bad causuality.

Seems like if I
had the stylus dead on so the contact point of the record
was moving directly away from the base...there'd be no
movement of the arm left or right.

Not necessarily.

Anybody run into this and used real blank (not an
unmodulated groove) to set overhang?

Doesn't matter as long as you have the height right when you set overhang.

Wow...thanks for the deeply thought out and detailed explanation.
It was so moving I printed it out on my softest paper and put it on a roll
in the bathroom where it will be put to the best use possible.

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"ScottW" wrote in message
groups.com


Note.. there is no antiskating on this arm.... So I did a
careful channel check and all seems fine.... but the fact
the arm tends to move right would indicate the stylus
overhand is a bit short.

I presume you mean overhang.

More likely, the arm tends to move right due to some unresolved source of
force on the arm, forcing it to the right.


I double checked the setup
using the supplied overhang gauge and it seems right on.

That follows.


I wonder if this phenom could be used to set the overhang
more precisely than the gauge allows.

No, bad causuality.


Seems like if I
had the stylus dead on so the contact point of the record
was moving directly away from the base...there'd be no
movement of the arm left or right.

Not necessarily.


Anybody run into this and used real blank (not an
unmodulated groove) to set overhang?

Doesn't matter as long as you have the height right when you set overhang.


Wow...thanks for the deeply thought out and detailed explanation.
It was so moving I printed it out on my softest paper and put it on a roll
in the bathroom where it will be put to the best use possible.

ScottW



What you are experiencing may be OK if it moves very slowly to the right.

I have the Cardas and HiFi Test records. I bought the Cardas because is
has dead tracks designed to set anti-skate. the goal is to have the arm
move very slowly toward the inside. Well. . .the best I can get on that
LP is for it to stay stationary on the middle track and it moves slowly
to the inside on the outer and inner track. Setting this is touchy
though so I am sure getting close is good.

I just tried the tracks you are talking about on the HiFi record. First
time since having the Cardas. Now I am not sure these were cut for the
same purpose. However - on some I get no movement - on some I get
movement in either direction. My guess is that fast movement right is
bad. Especially if it happen on all of these type tracks. If any stay
still or move towards the inside a bit you a probably good to go.

One thing I did learn during this is that platter level is crucial.
During this I actually found (with Michael Fremer's help) that my
platter was actually a bit concave. This meant the table was level but
the platter would only level on one side. He recommended I use a thick,
flat, record instead. I used the HiFi record and all was well. (I have
a suspended table which adjusts). Once I did that I could set
anti-skate pretty good with the Cardas record. For reference I have the
2 point protractor to help me set overhang and offset angle.
(http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm) To set azimuth I remove
the stylus and press let the cartridge rest in the HiFi record so it is
flush - Then I tighten and recheck. I realize this only works for some
MM cartridges

(I bought the Cardas LP because Michael Fremer told me that using the
HiFi record to set Anti-skate using the bias tracks is useless. I have
to agree. It seems these tracks are way too imprecise. I can almost
set my anti-skate from one extreme to another and not hear a difference
on the 15db track.)

"MD" wrote in message
...


Anybody run into this and used real blank (not an
unmodulated groove) to set overhang?




What you are experiencing may be OK if it moves very slowly to the right.

Thanks for your input. Sounds like you have a pivot arm.

Hard to quantify slow. We're dealing with an F=ma
thing with a force that may be equal on a lower mass
results in a higher acceleration.


I have the Cardas and HiFi Test records. I bought the Cardas because is
has dead tracks designed to set anti-skate.

I'll have to look at that. I see the Cardas record is relatively cheap
compared to the Hi-fi news which I don't find all that useful.

the goal is to have the arm move very slowly toward the inside.

I think thats specific to a pivot arm where the simple drag
force on the stylus induces a torque on the pivot toward the
center. In a LT arm...the force should be directly away inducing
no torque so I shouldn't get any movement.

Well. . .the best I can get on that LP is for it to stay stationary on the
middle track and it moves slowly to the inside on the outer and inner
track. Setting this is touchy though so I am sure getting close is good.

Im sure it is and everytime I change overhang... alignment changes.
I think I'll take it into work where I have a scope on an optical
measurement system that will let me at least see quantitatively
how much I moved it. Eyeballing it isn't near precise enough
for this.

But did you get any audible changes with these adjustments?
I'm not... and considering that so many good arms with variable
tracking error and fixed anti-skate force (even though the requirement
varies with position) work well.... I wonder if there is anything
to be gained here?


I just tried the tracks you are talking about on the HiFi record. First
time since having the Cardas. Now I am not sure these were cut for the
same purpose. However - on some I get no movement - on some I get
movement in either direction. My guess is that fast movement right is
bad. Especially if it happen on all of these type tracks. If any stay
still or move towards the inside a bit you a probably good to go.

One thing I did learn during this is that platter level is crucial.

Yeah... I was looking at a precision machinists level at Harbor Freight
a few months back for about $20... I was think that would
be cool for my pool table but now I'm bummend for not
buying the 5" for my TT.

During this I actually found (with Michael Fremer's help) that my platter
was actually a bit concave. This meant the table was level but the
platter would only level on one side. He recommended I use a thick, flat,
record instead. I used the HiFi record and all was well. (I have a
suspended table which adjusts). Once I did that I could set anti-skate
pretty good with the Cardas record. For reference I have the 2 point
protractor to help me set overhang and offset angle.
(http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm) To set azimuth I remove the
stylus and press let the cartridge rest in the HiFi record so it is
flush - Then I tighten and recheck. I realize this only works for some MM
cartridges

I have a headshell with adjustable azimuth but it weighs a ton so I
don't use it.
I really don't understand why that shouldn't be factory set and
rely on the cart to be square. They could be so much more precise
than this.

Thanks for your comments and sharing your experience.

ScottW