I saw Men Of Steel on Sunday. It's a 4-piece group, consisting of Beppe
Gambetta, Dan Crary, Tony McManus, and Don Ross, all playing steel-string
guitars.

An excellent performance, overall. But the sound sucked.

They were using the Bose L1/PS1/B1 system. Each guy had a speaker and a
bass unit. They commented on how nice it was to not have to worry about
monitors, but joked that they didn't have a sound guy to gripe about. There
were, however, at least one and possibly two guys there to look after the
equipment. And they had the same kinds of problems that one sees with
traditional PA systems -- feedback from mics that weren't turned down,
people trying to talk into microphones that weren't turned up, that sort of
thing.

The balance between players was poor. I admit, I was right in the front row
in front of Dan, but where I was sitting, he was *MUCH* louder than anyone
else. If he moved away from his designated spot, he was between me and
Beppe's system, and just about wiped out Beppe's sound. A friend who was
sitting about half-way back on the opposite side (in front of Don)
complained that Don was much louder than everybody else. I suspect that the
balance might have been okay further back and further toward the center of
the audience, but that sweet spot is pretty small.

I found too that there was a distinct lack of blending of sounds between
performers. Bose seems to push this as a good thing, but I found it
distracting that the sounds seemed to emanate from specific points, rather
than the somewhat broader area of a guitar or a person. It always seemed to
be four individuals, rather than a quartet, if that makes sense.

As well, the quality of sound wasn't very good. I found it rather hard
sounding, too much upper midrange, and very tiring to listen to. Not quite
the quack of a piezo pickup directly into a mixing board, but that kind of
sound. The guitar sounds were distinct, mind. Anyone who's seen them
at a Taylor clinic will know that Beppe tends to a rather electrified kind
of sound, while Dan goes for a kind of bright traditional dreadnaught
sound; those differences came across clearly.


So -- performances get high marks, technology barely gets a passing grade.

Dave O'H
--
oheareATmagmaDOTca

I had occasion to utilize this system for a rehearsal with the Kronos
Quartet recently. After listening to all the cajoling from the Bose ads
& wishful prodding from the management of the hall, the plain & simple
truth is that it just didn't sound good spectrally, is not in fact
impervious to feedback, lacked projection over distance to a serious
degree, & did not give the performers ample monitoring. There is no way
in hell I will ever allow this system to be used for any pro gig I have
to mix. A possibly interesting theoretical notion, and a total waste of
time as a piece of sound reinforcement gear, IMO. Maybe a
singer/guitarist playing in a coffeehouse could benefit from something
like this, but no way does it work for critical concert hall use.

Scott Fraser

The fact of the matter is that musicians should not be in charge of
their sound as it relates to getting to the audience.

As a sound engineer, and a musician, I find it very distracting when I
have to do both jobs at the same time. Through years of experience, I
am able, but prefer to not have to bother with one or the other,
depending upon which job I'm doing.

As a musician, all I want to be concerned with is the music. The sound
(insert gender neutral/specific reference here) takes care of what the
audience hears, and what I want to hear back at me through the
monitors.

As a sound engineer, I strive to let the band be a band and give them
exactly what they require to make that happen, to remove their concerns
about what the audience is going to hear. But I need total control of
the sound to make that happen. The more a band surrenders to this
necessity, the better I can do my job. And that often means the band
has to turn down so they don't bleed off stage.

This Bose system is horrible and sounds thin and too "washed out" when
heard from a distance. And it guarantees that unless proper methods are
taken and adhered to, the sound of the "band" will basically be exactly
as you described. These musicans are not sound techs, and it showed by
how they set up their "blend". It didn't blend because they didn't do
the requisite checks to ensure it would blend once leaving the stage,
checks a sound tech will automatically make if they're any good at all.

Is such a thing possible with the Bose system? Theoretically, it is.
But a musician will not really be able to make that happen. A good
sound tech will.

--Fletch

Is such a thing possible with the Bose system? Theoretically, it is.
But a musician will not really be able to make that happen. A good
sound tech will.

Actually, no amount of expertise will let you make those work. There's no
EQ or routing, only a switch you're supposed to set to the type of
microphone you're using, heaven forbid someone should choose a mic that
actually suits their voice rather than a generic SM58-ish whatever.

Fletch wrote:
The fact of the matter is that musicians should not be in charge of
their sound as it relates to getting to the audience.

snip

Is such a thing possible with the Bose system? Theoretically, it is.
But a musician will not really be able to make that happen. A good
sound tech will.


Fletch, you really hit the nail on the head. This totally renders any
other issue, technical or theoretical, moot. I've seen several gigs
with the system. A few sounded very good, the others not so good .
It's about the same ratio I experience when I see gigs with "normal"
PAs. Whatever advantages the system has (and I'm not interested in
that debate again), I can't imagine either of the bands I'm in having
the members set their own PA volumes. I shudder at the thought. The
ones who don't have too much ego have no sense of what the levels
should be, great musicians though they are. We don't really need a
sound "tech", but we do need a sound guy/gal at a board. I was amused
at all the tech talk last year about how it can't possibly work,
because the truth is that even if it worked if the members of my band
controlled their house level the sound will suck, and I have to assume
that's not a rarity in groups of more than four.

And yes, for chrissakes, at the gigs where the sound was good I was
completely annoyed at how it was one big blended ball of pretty good
sound that followed you everywhere you went in the room. To the bar,
to the other bar, to this side, that side. Hello, that's a negative.
Let me get away from it when I want to. Directionality is our
friend, not our enemy.

These musicans are not sound techs, and it showed by
how they set up their "blend". It didn't blend because they didn't do
the requisite checks to ensure it would blend once leaving the stage,
checks a sound tech will automatically make if they're any good at all.

Is such a thing possible with the Bose system? Theoretically, it is.
But a musician will not really be able to make that happen. A good
sound tech will.

In my rehearsal situation, I was mixing the group on a Midas desk &
sending that to the Bose system. I know what I'm doing, I've mixed
these guys for 15 years, & it still sounded like crap. It's not the
fact of musicians setting their own levels, it's that the Bose system
is a piece of ****, based on phony science which in the end is still
subject to the same laws of physics that govern projection over
distance that effect every other sound system ever designed. The
solutions that Meyer, EAW, d&b, LAcoustics, et al have come up with
work. The solution that Bose has come up with doesn't.

Scott Fraser

On Tue, 16 May 2006 14:41:03 -0400, David O'Heare wrote:


So -- performances get high marks, technology barely gets a passing grade.

Dave O'H

I just did a gig as a hired gun (keyboards) a couple of weeks ago and the
venue was using the BOSE thingie.
As a performer, I give it high marks because onstage it sounded really
nice and the monitoring(feedback if you will) to the performers was pretty
good.
I usually use a pair of JBL's for my hotspot monitors or a Shure In the
ear thingie.

However, out in the room, the sound was horrid....

I was doing a jazz gig and I didn't play on one tune so I got to walk
around the room and listen and the sound was awful, really awful.....

I've used BOSE before (802's) and I think they are great for vocals, or
for people who sing to tracks (ie:contemporaty christian music stuff) but
horrid for full range jazz stuff.

IOW they seem to be better music REPRODUCERS than music CREATORS....

A basic JBL EON system, the Peavy equivalent or the Mackies blow the doors
off the Bose system.

You are also correct that the sound is nebulous and seems to meld into one
mushy sounding mess.

But like I said, they really do sound nice on stage...

Maybe BOSE ought to market it as a monitoring system?
Honestly, it's quite good for that.
Nice clear, full range sound on stage.


--
flatfish+++
"Why do they call it a flatfish?"

I've used BOSE before (802's) and I think they are great for vocals,


As long as you're not trying to project more than about 20 feet.

Scott Fraser

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:41:18 -0700, Scott Fraser wrote:

I've used BOSE before (802's) and I think they are great for vocals,


As long as you're not trying to project more than about 20 feet.

Scott Fraser

Not true at all....
I did a gig back in the 80's (cosat to coast in 4 months) where they
blended pre-recorded stuff (Trax) with live music and with live vocals and
they used stacked Bose 802's, 4 on each side I think? and they sounded
fine in medium sized venues.

I wouldn't use them with a rock band in MSG, but for MOR music in medium
sized halls they sounded quite smooth and were easy to set up and move as
well.


--
flatfish+++
"Why do they call it a flatfish?"

I don't like Bose stuff. However the other day I was at an outdoor
barbeque and someone had set up one of the Bose IPod docking units.
Amazing amount of sound out if a tiny package. Nooo not full range,
flat fidelity or anything to even consider accurate but for the purpose
an absolute home run. I was very surprised at the extension, clarity
and sheer volume of such a diminutive package.

"David O'Heare" wrote in message
...

I saw Men Of Steel on Sunday. It's a 4-piece group, consisting of Beppe
Gambetta, Dan Crary, Tony McManus, and Don Ross, all playing steel-string
guitars.

An excellent performance, overall. But the sound sucked.

I heard it just once. It was a small club/bar. The only thing in the Bose
was the vocals. The guitars and bass went through their respective cabinets.
There was no need to mic the drums at this level. I thought the sound was
excellent. Didn't hear any feedback problems. The band didn't seem to have
any troubles monitoring their vocals.

The band was in a corner with the drums sitting where the walls meet. On one
side and in front was the bass. One mirror side was a guitar. In front of
the drums and in front of an imaginary line between bass and guitar1. On
that line slightly off center was the Bose.

I heard it just once. It was a small club/bar. The only thing in the Bose
was the vocals. The guitars and bass went through their respective cabinets.
There was no need to mic the drums at this level. I thought the sound was
excellent. Didn't hear any feedback problems. The band didn't seem to have
any troubles monitoring their vocals.

I had occasion to experience one of these again last week. An acoustic
sextet brought one to a festival I was mixing in Kansas. After the
festival management persuaded them that their hurdygurdy
player/lighting tech mixing them onstage into the Bose as the sole PA &
monitor system was not going to benefit them or the audience, they
decided to take my FOH mix & use this thing as their monitor. They have
convinced themselves that placement & orientation is uncritical with
this miracle device, so they placed it far stage right pointing out to
the house. Not surprisingly they couldn't hear themselves, & where it
finally ended up, somewhat central to the band, I could barely make
anything out as coming from the Bose, yet they proclaimed themselves
happy. I believe they were mainly hearing the mains, because there was
barely any available gain before feedback attainable with sending the
FOH mix to the Bose. It was a stupid arrangement, & I felt the band
made their gig a lot harder on themselves by insisting on using
something that they had invested a bunch of bread in, but which doesn't
at all meet their needs. They were very convinced by the Bose marketing
spiel & cheerfully parroted the ad copy to me. A lot of bad science
going on there. My final impression; an expensive piece of crap.

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser wrote:

It was a stupid arrangement, & I felt the band
made their gig a lot harder on themselves by insisting on using
something that they had invested a bunch of bread in, but which doesn't
at all meet their needs. They were very convinced by the Bose marketing
spiel & cheerfully parroted the ad copy to me. A lot of bad science
going on there. My final impression; an expensive piece of crap.

C'mon, tell how you really feel!

--
ha

Jim Carr wrote:

I heard it just once. It was a small club/bar. The only thing in the Bose
was the vocals. The guitars and bass went through their respective cabinets.

I've never heard it, but I saw it (just once) on display at a Guitar
Center store. Geez, but it's big. I didn't reallize it was that big. It
almost looks like if you extended the column a bit it would work for
holding up a basketball hoop.

If it worked for a small band with a van and a couple of people to help
move it, it might be OK, but the soloists that I know who do school and
artist-in-residence gigs would have a hard time moving something that
large, even if it does come apart. (they might even have trouble
putting it together)

I'm not going to be impressed very easily.

Yes, good for coffeehouse gig (where I've heard it used), but not for
much else.

Your Ad Here! wrote:
Yes, good for coffeehouse gig (where I've heard it used), but not for
much else.

Yeah, but imagine open mic night with ten singers each wheeling in
their own Bose PA stick because it's so "convenient."

Coffee house gig= Tip Jar =~$25. It would take alot of gigs to pay off
the $2k investment even if it worked great. My Coffe house rig
(1) JBL EON 15G2 mixer +400w powers speaker 45lbs paid $500 and it does
lots of different jobs.

Kevin T


Your Ad Here! wrote:
Yes, good for coffeehouse gig (where I've heard it used), but not for
much else.

My Coffe house rig
(1) JBL EON 15G2 mixer +400w powers speaker 45lbs paid $500 and it does
lots of different jobs.

Including having at least a useable degree of projection, unlike the
Bose.

Scott Fraser

Kevin T wrote:
Coffee house gig= Tip Jar =~$25. It would take alot of gigs to pay off
the $2k investment even if it worked great. My Coffe house rig
(1) JBL EON 15G2 mixer +400w powers speaker 45lbs paid $500 and it does
lots of different jobs.

Picking up hot groopies = Priceless

~ Jester