I'm wondering what a good but frugal set-up (e.g. total cost of
recorder / mic under $500) for podcasting a professional conference
from either at the lectern or in the audience? Or should I suck it up,
empty the bank account, buck the desire to go non-pro, and go for a
Marantz? This is for a non-profit event, and it's my dime. I don't know
any place in my area that will rent me a Marantz or pro mics.

Some considerations

1) Podcasting people giving presentations (one room has a 1/8" out at
the podium, the other room doesn't even a PA system)

2) Podcasting panel discussions, e.g. 4 people sit at a table and field
audience questions.

A Marantz would be terrific, but don't those start at USD ~$600, not
including a good quality mic?

What about using a higher-end PDA and/or PDA with a high-end audio card
in it, or a higher-end MP3 player? I worry about stuff like:

1) Battery life. Once had an MPIO MP3 recorder - said it would last 14
hours on one AAA battery. True enough. What wasn't said is that battery
life for recording was less than 2 hours on one battery. Doh! Learned
that the hard way.

2) Ability to monitor what I'm recording, e.g. the MPIO had only one
1/8" jack - you could record through the built-in mic *and* record, or
record with the built-in mic but not monitor - the built-in mic was
crap, incidentally.

3) Using a low-impedance mic with a high-impedance portable (e.g. MP3
player or PDA)

All I need is mono sound, and reasonable quality - not broadcast
quality - to pass on to people who can't attend this particular
conference due to biz travel and other conflicting plans. This isn't
for a podcast studio. Just mobile events that are voice only without
music.

iRivers seem absurdly expensive for 1GB models, but maybe you get
what you pay for. And if I could buy two of them to get redundancy, or
to use in different areas of the same meeting space, maybe that's a
better choice than a Marantz.

So what are y'alls recommendations for podcasting a conference without
breaking the bank?

What would be helpful for field work is:

-- a few omni and condenser mic suggestions in the $200 range

-- a few higher-end MP3 player suggestions

-- a few PDA suggestions - preferably Pocket/PC Windows Mobile vs.
Palm, but if there are some good values in new Palms (Tungstens?) that
do the trick, then I'm all ears / eyes.

-- Advice on capturing both a presenters *and* audience questions,
aside from having the presenter repeat the question - which I guess is
more efficient (less gear?) and probably does away with the legal issue
of having the audience as a whole consent to being recorded!

Are there any good release forms on the web I should ask presenters and
discussion panel members to sign? What if not all panel members give
consent? Anyone ever just go ahead, record, then edit out the panel
members who didn't give consent?

Any good articles on the legal aspects of podcasting, and/or specific
articles on podcasting conferences and events? The current crop of
podcasting books don't seem to go very much in-depth on recording in
the field / specifically recording conferences and events. If there is
such a book, I haven't seen it and don't know about it.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm wondering what a good but frugal set-up (e.g. total cost of
recorder / mic under $500) for podcasting a professional conference
from either at the lectern or in the audience? Or should I suck it up,
empty the bank account, buck the desire to go non-pro, and go for a
Marantz? This is for a non-profit event, and it's my dime. I don't know
any place in my area that will rent me a Marantz or pro mics.

Some considerations

1) Podcasting people giving presentations (one room has a 1/8" out at
the podium, the other room doesn't even a PA system)

2) Podcasting panel discussions, e.g. 4 people sit at a table and field
audience questions.

A Marantz would be terrific, but don't those start at USD ~$600, not
including a good quality mic?

What about using a higher-end PDA and/or PDA with a high-end audio card
in it, or a higher-end MP3 player? I worry about stuff like:

1) Battery life. Once had an MPIO MP3 recorder - said it would last 14
hours on one AAA battery. True enough. What wasn't said is that battery
life for recording was less than 2 hours on one battery. Doh! Learned
that the hard way.

2) Ability to monitor what I'm recording, e.g. the MPIO had only one
1/8" jack - you could record through the built-in mic *and* record, or
record with the built-in mic but not monitor - the built-in mic was
crap, incidentally.

3) Using a low-impedance mic with a high-impedance portable (e.g. MP3
player or PDA)

All I need is mono sound, and reasonable quality - not broadcast
quality - to pass on to people who can't attend this particular
conference due to biz travel and other conflicting plans. This isn't
for a podcast studio. Just mobile events that are voice only without
music.

iRivers seem absurdly expensive for 1GB models, but maybe you get
what you pay for. And if I could buy two of them to get redundancy, or
to use in different areas of the same meeting space, maybe that's a
better choice than a Marantz.

So what are y'alls recommendations for podcasting a conference without
breaking the bank?

What would be helpful for field work is:

-- a few omni and condenser mic suggestions in the $200 range

-- a few higher-end MP3 player suggestions

-- a few PDA suggestions - preferably Pocket/PC Windows Mobile vs.
Palm, but if there are some good values in new Palms (Tungstens?) that
do the trick, then I'm all ears / eyes.

-- Advice on capturing both a presenters *and* audience questions,
aside from having the presenter repeat the question - which I guess is
more efficient (less gear?) and probably does away with the legal issue
of having the audience as a whole consent to being recorded!

Are there any good release forms on the web I should ask presenters and
discussion panel members to sign? What if not all panel members give
consent? Anyone ever just go ahead, record, then edit out the panel
members who didn't give consent?

Any good articles on the legal aspects of podcasting, and/or specific
articles on podcasting conferences and events? The current crop of
podcasting books don't seem to go very much in-depth on recording in
the field / specifically recording conferences and events. If there is
such a book, I haven't seen it and don't know about it.

I think you would be happy with the recording quality of a minidisc
recorder. Some are capable of uploading the audio via USB to a computer for
editing and file conversion to MP3. Expect to pay under $100 used.
Batteries last for hours. Minidiscs will hold a couple of hours of mono
recording. Professional microphones that do not require phantom power will
work fine with Minidisc recorders. There are probably more Shure SM58
microphones used as live vocal microphones and podium mics than just about
anything. Expect to pay under $100 each used on Ebay. Stands and mic clips
can be had at Radio Shack for very little. Audience questions are most
easily dealt with by asking speakers to always repeat the question. I
wouldn't worry about privacy rights for audiences at a public presentation.
Now stand back and weather all the recommendations for expensive recorders,
expensive microphones, suggestions for boundry layer mics for panel
discussions. All will probably be valid. Most will be capable of higher
quality recording than my suggestions above. Only you can decide how
important that is, what level of support to this charitable endeavor you are
comfortable with.

Steve King

dananrg wrote ...
I'm wondering what a good but frugal set-up (e.g. total
cost of recorder / mic under $500) for podcasting a
professional conference from either at the lectern or
in the audience?

Don't bother recording "in the audience" unless it is only
for your own amusement. It is not suitable for podcasting
or any other kind of distribution.

Or should I suck it up, empty the bank account, buck the
desire to go non-pro, and go for a Marantz? This is for a
non-profit event, and it's my dime. I don't know any place
in my area that will rent me a Marantz or pro mics.

The Marantz is gross overkill for your budget. Your project
cannot be done in any kind of decent production value with
only one (or even two) micropones. You may be in over
your head if you can't even locate a pro-audio rental vendor
in your area.

1) Podcasting people giving presentations (one room has
a 1/8" out at the podium, the other room doesn't even a PA
system)

The only practical way to do this on your budget is with a
clip-on mic on the presenter and an MD recorder in their
pocket or clipped on their belt.

2) Podcasting panel discussions, e.g. 4 people sit at a table
and field audience questions.

Minimum of one desk-stand microphone between each two
panelists, plus at least one additional directional mic to
pick up audience questions. Plan on repeating the questions
for your podcast because you will never get decent pickup
on your budget. Note that multiple microphones imply use
of a mixer to feed the recorder.

A Marantz would be terrific, but don't those start at USD
~$600, not including a good quality mic?

Not clear whether you are just looking for an excuse to buy
a Marantz, or whether you acctually want to do a passable
job of recording the conference events? These do not seem
compatible with each other on your stated budget.

What about using a higher-end PDA and/or PDA with a
high-end audio card in it, or a higher-end MP3 player?

Without having appropriate microphones in the right places
you will have nothing worth recording on any kind of
device. Given your aspirations and budget, I'd spend
80% of the budget on microphones and use a MD or
even cassette recorder.

All I need is mono sound, and reasonable quality - not
broadcast quality - to pass on to people who can't attend
this particular conference due to biz travel and other
conflicting plans. This isn't for a podcast studio. Just mobile
events that are voice only without music.

MD recorder (s) or even audio cassette recorder(s).
But unless you can get mics in the right places, don't
bother.

iRivers seem absurdly expensive for 1GB models, but maybe you get
what you pay for. And if I could buy two of them to get redundancy, or
to use in different areas of the same meeting space, maybe that's a
better choice than a Marantz.

Overkill for your project on your budget.

So what are y'alls recommendations for podcasting a conference without
breaking the bank?

What would be helpful for field work is:

-- a few omni and condenser mic suggestions in the $200 range

-- a few higher-end MP3 player suggestions

-- a few PDA suggestions - preferably Pocket/PC Windows Mobile vs.
Palm, but if there are some good values in new Palms (Tungstens?) that
do the trick, then I'm all ears / eyes.

-- Advice on capturing both a presenters *and* audience
questions, aside from having the presenter repeat the
question - which I guess is more efficient (less gear?)

Don't count on having the presenters remember (or even
agree) to repeat the questions. Plan on at least one or
more directional mics just to pick up audience questions,
but only so that you can hear them well enough to repeat
them for the recording.

and probably does away with the legal issue of having
the audience as a whole consent to being recorded!

Yes, there is that, unless you have the full cooperation of
the even organizers who could print a disclaimer on the
tickets (or whatever).

Are there any good release forms on the web I should
ask presenters and discussion panel members to sign?

Yes, there are generic release forms online. Like this...
http://www.cybercollege.com/talent.htm

What if not all panel members give consent? Anyone
ever just go ahead, record, then edit out the panel members who
didn't give consent?

Any good articles on the legal aspects of podcasting, and/or specific
articles on podcasting conferences and events? The current crop of
podcasting books don't seem to go very much in-depth on recording in
the field / specifically recording conferences and events. If there is
such a book, I haven't seen it and don't know about it.

You should start with the event organizers. If you don't have
their full support, you should not attempt your production.

think you would be happy with the recording quality of a minidisc
recorder. Some are capable of uploading the audio via USB to a computer for
editing and file conversion to MP3. Expect to pay under $100 used.
Batteries last for hours. Minidiscs will hold a couple of hours of mono
recording. Professional microphones that do not require phantom power will
work fine with Minidisc recorders. There are probably more Shure SM58
microphones used as live vocal microphones and podium mics than just about
anything. Expect to pay under $100 each used on Ebay. Stands and mic clips
can be had at Radio Shack for very little. Audience questions are most
easily dealt with by asking speakers to always repeat the question. I
wouldn't worry about privacy rights for audiences at a public presentation.

Thanks Steve for nailing all my questions. :-)
But dang, I just sold an SM58 in pristine condition on eBay for $50.
Thought I'd never have a use for it ever again. :-(

Now stand back and weather all the recommendations for expensive recorders,
expensive microphones, suggestions for boundry layer mics for panel
discussions. All will probably be valid. Most will be capable of higher
quality recording than my suggestions above. Only you can decide how
important that is, what level of support to this charitable endeavor you are
comfortable with.

Well, it is a pro audio list. I reckon I'll get extremes on either side
and perhaps the best choice for me, at this time with my present
budget, will be somewhere in between.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to buy used. The event is in a few
days. Even the best eBayer doesn't ship fast enough for that.
I have a trial run on Thursday afternoon.

If I do invest in better gear, perhaps I'll be able to make some of the
money back by podcasting additional events for pay.

Thanks again.

dananrg wrote ...
Does RatShack make one that would serve the purpose
well enough? Also heard a rumor once that, at least a
decade ago, Shure made RatShack branded condenser
mics. Don't know if that ever was true or remains true
today. Just curious.

A $20 RatShack mic clipped to the presenter is preferable
to a $2000 mic five feet away. Those cheap small electret
capsules used in cheap clip-on mics are surprisingly flat.
They aren't as quiet as you would like for music recording,
particuarly if you are doing soft chamber music, etc, but they
are more than adequate for speech recording. They also don't
take loud sounds as well as "good" microphones, but neither
of those shortcomings will affect your applicaiton, so you
can take advantage of cheap technology in this area.

Note that I am more pragmatic in these areas than some of the
people on this newsgroup who specialize in using expensive
microphones and producing exquisite recordings. But that
doesn't seem like your requirement here.

2) Podcasting panel discussions, e.g. 4 people sit at a table
and field audience questions.

Minimum of one desk-stand microphone between each two
panelists, plus at least one additional directional mic to
pick up audience questions. Plan on repeating the questions
for your podcast because you will never get decent pickup
on your budget. Note that multiple microphones imply use
of a mixer to feed the recorder.

What type/make/model of desk mic would you recommend? An
omnidirectional dynamic or condenser mic?

Dynamic/condenser: Condenser mics are frequently more
sensitive because the diaphragm of the microphone doesn't
have to move a coil of wire, etc. But condenser mics require
power for the tiny circuit inside them that makes them practical
to use in the real world. But the choice of other factors like
directionality should likely be the first consideration in your
application before you worry about whether it is dynamic or
condenser.

Directionality: Directional mics are used for applications
where you need to distinguish between sounds coming from
different directions. To emphansize the "on-axis" sound
while diminshing the "off-axis" sounds to some degree.
The degree depends on the variety of mic and also on the
particular make/model. With most directional mics, the
"off-axis response" is "colored" and doesn't sound as good
as the on-axis sounds, so this is a two-edged sword. All
these are important considerations when selecting mics
for recording music in studio or location settings.

However, for your purposes: attempting to do a multi-
mic documentation of a conference on a miniscule budget,
you could get away with some choices that would not be
suitable for quality music recording.

I've successfully recorded panel discussions with a bunch
of those "wand" plastic computer mics. Same inexpensive
$1 electret condenser mic capsules as in the cheap clip-
on mics. They would certainly not be suitable for music
or for PA (reinforcement) use, but they did quite well in
picking up the panelists for documentary recording.
NOTE: These "computer-type" microphones require
"plug-in power" as from a computer sound card, so you
can't use them with conventional mixers. I actually made
a bunch of adapters to plug in computer-type mics and
get an XLR output to use with conventional cables and
mixers.

What you want here is something sensitive that can be
positioned directly in front of each presenter. If you are
using one mic per person, a directional mic might be a
good choice to reject off-axis noise, etc. But this cuts
both ways. If the panelist moves around, they might
get out of the directional pattern of the mic and their
level would fall off. Using omnidirectinal micropnones
would avoid this problem at the expense of picking up
more external noise. However, omni mics are also
useful where you can't devone one mic per panelist,
and must put up one mic between each two of them.
Sharing a mic between more than two people is not
recommended as the ratio of the distance between the
talkers is too great to handle reasonably.

Ok, that answered my question about a mixer. I
suppose I could always buy a cheap Behringer
( *hides to keep from being pelted with rotten
fruit* ).

One of those small Behringer mixers is perfect for your
application and budget. (Ducking right next to you! :-)



A Marantz would be terrific, but don't those start at USD
~$600, not including a good quality mic?

Not clear whether you are just looking for an excuse to buy
a Marantz, or whether you acctually want to do a passable
job of recording the conference events? These do not seem
compatible with each other on your stated budget.

Is the following clear enough for you?

* Simplicity.
* Reliability.

MD recorders are simple and reliable.
Old-fashioned audio cassette recorders are also simple and
reliable.

Blowing your entire budget on a recorder and nothing on
mics, mixer, even cables and stands just seems crazy to me.
It would be like starting a landscaping company and blowing
your entire buget on a nice truck, but no money left to buy
a mower, or even a rake.

* Built in pre-amps and XLR jacks.

Virtually all portable recorders have built-in preamps.
There are much less expensive ways of getting compatibility
with XLR.

* Swappable Compact Flash cards.

This is the MOST EXPENSIVE way of storing audio
known today. It seems completely antithetical to trying
to do such a large-scale project on a microscopic budget.
Even the guys that do sound for multi-million dollar
movies complain about the cost of CF card storage.
Just go over to news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound
if you don't believe me. It is one of the reasons why
MD recorders are popular, and millions of people are
still using audio cassettes.

If I can rent a Marantz or equivalent for 24 hours,
then it will meet my budget.

If it is only one day, and you can rent the CF cards,
maybe. But it still seems like an extravegent waste of
even your rental budget. If you don't have mics placed
where they will capture the sounds of interest, you could
have the best recorder on the planet and end up with
unusable garbage.

What about using a higher-end PDA and/or PDA with a
high-end audio card in it, or a higher-end MP3 player?

Without having appropriate microphones in the right places
you will have nothing worth recording on any kind of
device. Given your aspirations and budget, I'd spend
80% of the budget on microphones and use a MD or
even cassette recorder.

What mics would you recommend?

If you have located a rental place, see if they have anyone
on their staff who can help you choose mics from their
selection. There is such a broad field to choose from,
you need to narrow it down to something practical, like
what is available from your rental house. Describe the
physical circumstances as completely and accurately as
possible to give them a better chance of helping you get
the optimal mics.

And I've heard using a Marantz cassette recorder would
be one option, then A-to-Ding into a laptop.

Likely many more conferences, church services, city council
meetings, etc. are recorded and then duplicated and distributed
on old-fashioned audio compact cassette than you likely
realize. It is still a reliable way of capturing and distributing
speech events like yours.

Wonder about a Tascam 4 track, where I'd have (hopefully),
XLR inputs, pre-amps, and level monitors (VU meter would
be more nice, but I suppose LEDs are response enough for
this use case).

You don't need XLRs and real VU meters (or even LED meters)
to get perfectly adequate documentary recordings of speech
events like this. Especially on your budget. I know this will
be viewed as heresy in this newsgroup by some people, but
lets be practical here. Your obsession with high-end recorders
would be admirable if you were recording music performances
here, but your stated requriements are for documentary-quality
speech recording. But I continue to maintain that it is overkill,
especially when it distracts you from getting enough mics in
the right places to capture the event in the first place.

MD recorder (s) or even audio cassette recorder(s).
But unless you can get mics in the right places, don't
bother.

Any additional advice on mic placement / # of mics?

It is a balance of science and art. But a good rule of thumb
is to get (and keep) the mics as close to the speakers as
possible. The closer you can keep the mic to the presnenter,
the less expensive mic you can get away with. Note that
this is for recording purposes, NOT necessarily for PA
(reinforcement) purposes.


-- Advice on capturing both a presenters *and* audience
questions, aside from having the presenter repeat the
question - which I guess is more efficient (less gear?)

Don't count on having the presenters remember (or even
agree) to repeat the questions. Plan on at least one or
more directional mics just to pick up audience questions,
but only so that you can hear them well enough to repeat
them for the recording.

Any particular shotgun mic you'd recommend for rental or purchase,
if that's what you're recommending?

No, not recomending a shotgun mic, particularly indoors,
unless you have a motivated, dedicated human to aim it
at people as they speak, and then I would have no real
expectation that it will be "producction quality". Again,
even people with audio budgets in $10 of thousands can't
do this without extraordinary means (requiring audience
members to come up to a stand mic, or handing around a
good handleld-wireless mic.) Note that wireless mics
which sell for less than $500 (your entire budget) are
unreliable plastic toys and not worth considering.

I'm the event organizer, it event will be held at a public
library, and admission is free (but people must pre-
register) and there are no tickets.

However, we are giving out Certificates of Attendance
good toward partial credit for professional certification
in my technical field upon check-in. I suppose when
people sign-in for a name badge, they could also sign
a mini-release.

Are there any good release forms on the web I should
ask presenters and discussion panel members to sign?

Yes, there are generic release forms online. Like this...
http://www.cybercollege.com/talent.htm

Thanks.

You should start with the event organizers. If you don't have
their full support, you should not attempt your production.

Self: "Can we podcast this event?"

Self: "Why sure, that's a slendid idea. Let's do this." :-)

Thanks for all the detailed advice.

If anyone else wants to chime in, please do. The more
opinions / advice I have, the better choice I'll be able
to make for this particular event and my particular budget.

Note that there are also vendors who will come in with
all the equipment and record your event for you and make
their money selling copies (cassettes or CDs), usually
rapid-duplicated and sold on the spot at the end of the
event.

Might be interesting if this was economically viable
just to see what kind of equipment they are using.
Several I've seen used equipment like consumer
cassette machines and $25 RatShack clip-on mics
where they had to cover a bunch of concurrent
"break-out" sessions. Perfectly adequate pickup
and recording.

wrote in message
oups.com...

So far you've got some good advice, the other extreme I have right next to
me an iAudio 5 (1GB). Just did a sound check on it, after amplifying the
output file (took quite a bit of amplification) the sound was passable for a
cheap podcast. Recording from 3 feet the audio was surprisingly clean, but
the center point is shifted down to about -0.1 ([-1,1] scale). Once I
shifted it, and amplified it the voice can be easily understood as saying
"Check 3 feet". Prior to amplification the sound would've had to be up an
enormous amount. It came through at 8kHz, 24-bit, mono. It's a 32.5kB, 2
second file if it would help to hear it. It was recorded in an extremely
squirelly room (Architecturally interesting, audio horrible). Such a device
won't work very well for the panels, by 7 feet it was almost unintelligible.
I can also send you the original 28 second file with my voice at approximate
intervals, the loudest part is where I turn off the recording.

This isn't a high (cost) end MP3 player, they're each about half the cost of
the iRiver, I think I paid about $150 each.
Joe

dananrg wrote...
My first podcasting attempt was a complete and utter
failure. Figures.

Really had no more time to research the issues, and ended
up buying a Samson CO1U USB Studio Condenser Mic.

Probably a decent choice for use in your home studio
for recording a podcast narration etc. Not particularly a
good choice for recording conferences in the field.

Heard it had low gain, but that it was easy enough to normalize
the (mono, voice only) tracks later with Audacity.

Always better to get the levels optimized while recording
rather than "fixing it in the mix".

For the next event, with this particular presenter (and he
was fabulous! It's a huge loss to not have caught the audio
of his presentation), he's getting a "lav" mic

That was one of the previous suggestions, but some people
need to do the experiment for themselves. :-(

or I'm having someone in the audience use a shot gun mic
and follow his every move. :-)

You can TRY this experiment, but we can tell you ahead of
time that its not worth the effort. NOT recommened. I'll say
it again, a $20 mic clipped to the presenter is better than a
$2000 mic 10 feet away.

What about those el-cheapo electret table-top meeting
mics sold by RatShack for $30 - $40. Do they work well
enough on a 4 person table? If it's AM radio quality, that's
fine.

[Radio Shack 33-3022, the "replacement" for the PZM]

It may work OK if the four people are equal distances from
the microphone. i.e. if they are sitting around a round table.

If they are lined up along a rectangular table like for a panel
discussion, you will need at least two of them, one between
each two people. The rule here is that each person must be
an equal distance from a microphone.

Note that those boundary mics tend to be more sensitive to
unwanted noises because of their omnidirectional pickup,
and also because they are on the table where they will be
great for picking up shuffling paper, drumming fingers, etc.
(And farther away from the mouths of the people.)

I realize this is rec.audio.pro and not "podcasting 101 / record
cheaply and poorly...", so if there's a better newsgroup for
sympathetic replies (I don't expect personal sympathy, just
constructive criticism without spending more $$$ than I have).

This newsgroup will atrophy into irrelevance unless we
keep up with emerging technology and help new users
understand the basic fundamentals (which can't be violated
without consequence) vs. where new technology can allow
cheaper/better/faster shortcuts.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 09:47:11 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:


What about those el-cheapo electret table-top meeting
mics sold by RatShack for $30 - $40. Do they work well
enough on a 4 person table? If it's AM radio quality, that's
fine.

[Radio Shack 33-3022, the "replacement" for the PZM]

It may work OK if the four people are equal distances from
the microphone. i.e. if they are sitting around a round table.

If they are lined up along a rectangular table like for a panel
discussion, you will need at least two of them, one between
each two people. The rule here is that each person must be
an equal distance from a microphone.

Note that those boundary mics tend to be more sensitive to
unwanted noises because of their omnidirectional pickup,
and also because they are on the table where they will be
great for picking up shuffling paper, drumming fingers, etc.
(And farther away from the mouths of the people.)

You'd be better off, IMO with some standard cardioids mics on boom
stands pointing over the table. They could be closer to the
panelists's mouths and not sitting on the table so they won't pick up
paper shuffling, finger tapping etc as much.

Julian