I am a string player (violist) and I play primarily classical music.

I want a recording device in order to do the following:

Record myself practising (more often than not, in a small room) so
that I can playback and hear what I just did (basically using it as a
learning tool).

Record rehearsals in order to listen to them later for balance,
intonation, ensemble, etc.

And make good quality recordings of chamber music concerts. These
would be in small performance venues like church auditoriums (most of
the time, quite resonant and ambient spaces).

I want to be able to do some editing, like removing applause, or
adding it (ha ha). And I want to be able to make copies and put them
on CDs, or whatever media is appropriate, without losing any quality.

I've been researching the minidisc recorders and the Nomad Jukebox 3.
From what I've learned, there is a loss of information when copying
from the recorder to a computer because of copyright protection that
the minidisc recorders have built in them. But I have no idea how
much effect that loss of info would have and if it would be enough to
make me decide not to go that way. Is it a discernible difference?

I'd like to spend under $500.

Any help about microphones and accessories would also be appreciated.

Thanks

Ben

"Ben" wrote in message
om
I am a string player (violist) and I play primarily classical music.

I want a recording device in order to do the following:

Record myself practicing (more often than not, in a small room) so
that I can playback and hear what I just did (basically using it as a
learning tool).

Record rehearsals in order to listen to them later for balance,
intonation, ensemble, etc.

And make good quality recordings of chamber music concerts. These
would be in small performance venues like church auditoriums (most of
the time, quite resonant and ambient spaces).

I do this sort of thing all the time. It's entirely feasible to make
*normal* sounding recordings in such places, but not with a 2-track
recorder.

I want to be able to do some editing, like removing applause, or
adding it (ha ha). And I want to be able to make copies and put them
on CDs, or whatever media is appropriate, without losing any quality.

This is best done by transferring your recording to a PC and do the editing
there. Your goal is probably going to be to produce a MP3 or an audio CD,
and a PC is a very good place to do that.

I've been researching the minidisc recorders and the Nomad Jukebox 3.

Forget the Minidisk thing, that's so yesterday. OTOH modern hard disk
recorders like the Nomad Jukebox 3 or a iRiver IHP 120 or 140 are IMO & IME
the way to go.

From what I've learned, there is a loss of information when copying
from the recorder to a computer because of copyright protection that
the minidisc recorders have built in them.

It's not the copyright protection, but rather the lossy compression.

But I have no idea how
much effect that loss of info would have and if it would be enough to
make me decide not to go that way.

With the two hard disk recorders I mentioned, you have the choice of a
number of forms of lossy compression, or totally uncompressed .wav files.

Is it a discernible difference?

I know of no form of lossy compression or bitrate that unconditionally
escaped detection by trained listeners with a free choice of kinds of music
to test with, and close comparisons. That all said, 192 kbps MP3 compression
can be really pretty good. Note that with the two recorders I've
specifically mentioned, you don't have to use lossy compression. You have
the option of lossless recording, at some cost in convenience.

BTW, I'm not speaking theoretically. I have a Nomad Jukebox 3, and did
something pretty comparable to what you want to do as recently as this past
Friday night.

On Friday night was handing the mixing console for a deer meat banquet at my
church. The dinner included some live music and a speaker who is pretty
well-known among in this area.

Several people wanted recordings. So, I hooked one of the outputs of my
console to the line input on my Nomad Jukebox. Because I didn't have a lot
of disk space left, I didn't have a lot of batter charge left and I didn't
have the charger with me, I decided to go with a 192 Kbps MP3. I turned on
the recorder and recorded about two hours of the banquet. This resulted in a
750 megabyte MP3 file.

When I got home I did a Firewire transfer of my MP3 file to a PC, and did my
editing in Adobe Audition. When I was done, I burned a CD. I took the CD to
church today, burned a few copies for a couple of the guys who organized the
banquet, and left one for the church office to duplicate for anybody who
wants one.

The recording is not one of the high quality pieces that I do with my 12
track recorder, but frankly under the conditions (I had to do the complete
setup from scratch starting about 3 pm Friday afternoon) it was good enough
for the purpose. No doubt far better than what has been done before, which
involved a cassette machine. The sound quality was not limited by the
recorder, but rather by the fact that the mixdown I recorded was not for the
purpose of recording, but rather for sound reinforcement.

I'd like to spend under $500.

Seems possible if you go very light on the other parts of the system. The
hard drive recorder itself will probably be about half of that and could run
much more than half. You might only be able to afford two microphones and a
minimum-sized console on that tight of a budget. OTOH, you could get started
on the budget you mention, particularly if you have the PC and use one of
the good shareware/freeware editors like Goldwave, Audacity, or the one that
might have come with the CD burning software on your PC.

Any help about microphones and accessories would also be appreciated.

I don't think that you want to duplicate the exact console and other
equipment I used Friday night, just because it was somewhat based on local
availability.

Here are some recommendations for getting started. Besides the hard disk
recorder you need a small mixer and some microphones. Depending on how many
microphones you need, pick something from Behringer's catalog at
www.behringer.com.

Once you've picked out a model of console with enough mic inputs, search
google and eBay and you'll be able to find many different retailers.

If I were starting out making recordings such as the ones you seem to want
to make, I would start out with a couple pairs of microphones. One pair
would be Behringer ECM-8000s which are small omnidirectional microphones.
They are good for picking up the overall sound of a performance. They are
also good for instruments like pianos and drum kits. Another other
microphones would be MXL 603s. They are good for most other instruments and
can be used for vocals with external pop filters. CAD 195s and Shure SM58s
good vocal mics that have fairly good pop filters built in. Look for the
mics and stands the same way you looked for the console. For cables and
external pop filters, check the retailer who sold you the mics and stands,
and also www.markertek.com .

Ben wrote:

I'd like to spend under $500.

Any help about microphones and accessories would also be appreciated.

I'd be tempted to get a small laptop and do it that way.

I want a recording device in order to do the following:

I've been researching the minidisc recorders and the Nomad Jukebox 3.

For what it's worth, I bought a Sony MZ NF-810 last week (seems like
close to Sony's top of the line for mini disc machines). Nice little
device, but I think I'm going to replace it with an iRiver.

The minidisc is pretty cool: 320 minutes on a disc....but you still
have to carry around the minidiscs and swap them to get the
programming you want. Also, the Sony "SonicStage" application used
for managing songs/playlists has a pretty poor UI and uses a
proprietary-albeit-more-efficient format (as opposed to MP3).

The iRiver type of device attracts me because *everything* is on the
device...nothing to fumble with, nothing to carry.

Seems to me like minidisc device still has a few good points:

1) Price: I think I paid about $250....and I'll probably wind up
selling it for half that.

2) Durability: Several people who sound like they know say that hard
drive devices aren't that good for, say, jogging - something about
bouncing it around while it's taking one of it's intermittant gulps of
data from the HD.

3) Batteries: THe iPod replacement battery is reputedly something like
a hundred bucks and, according to some, not readily available and
warranty-voiding if the user cracks the case to install it. Can't
imagine iRiver's is any better. The minidisc takes a user-replacable
"gum stick" battery and can work on a single plain-vanilla AA alkaline
when needed.


Seems to me like if five hours of music on a disc is good enough, the
minidisc might be good enough.

Actually, I may keep this one if I can figure out how to conveniently
create MD discs from MusicMatch Jukebox playlists.

OTOH, anybody want a Sony MD player cheap?