Questions:

If a recording is made using all digital equipment is any data lost
during the recording and cd creation process?

How many times per second is musical audio source sampled when
converting from analog source to digital cds?





I ask this question because a buddy was telling me how "pure" vinyl LPs
sound compared to CDs.

My recollection is vinyl LPs can't posssibly attain the frequency range of
CDs.

Mike
'

"Mike" wrote in message

Questions:

If a recording is made using all digital equipment is any data
lost during the recording and cd creation process?

That depends on how you actually do the recording and CD creation process.
For example, many of my music production efforts are based on 24 bit, 44.1
KHz tracking and mastering, which is eventually burned onto CDs at 16 bits
and 44.1 KHz. Obviously there is some loss of data.

You can't do much of interest in audio production without losing data - data
loss is implied by simply changing levels, whether that is done in the
analog or digital domain.

How many times per second is musical audio source sampled when
converting from analog source to digital cds?

At least 44,100 times per channel.

I ask this question because a buddy was telling me how "pure" vinyl
LPs sound compared to CDs.

He's probably just posturing. There's no doubt that the aydio CD format can
accurately preserve more data than LP production. However, audio production
is an art and as well as a science. There's no guarantee that any particular
CD has more or less purity than the corresponding LP. The CD format has the
potential to preserve music more accurately, but there's no guarantee that
people will fully exploit it.

My recollection is vinyl LPs can't possibly attain the frequency
range of CDs.

The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can easily
have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy will have actual
performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB being typical of the
physical limits of the LP medium.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message

Questions:

If a recording is made using all digital equipment is any data
lost during the recording and cd creation process?

That depends on how you actually do the recording and CD creation process.
For example, many of my music production efforts are based on 24 bit, 44.1
KHz tracking and mastering, which is eventually burned onto CDs at 16 bits
and 44.1 KHz. Obviously there is some loss of data.

You can't do much of interest in audio production without losing data -
data
loss is implied by simply changing levels, whether that is done in the
analog or digital domain.

How many times per second is musical audio source sampled when
converting from analog source to digital cds?

At least 44,100 times per channel.

I ask this question because a buddy was telling me how "pure" vinyl
LPs sound compared to CDs.

He's probably just posturing. There's no doubt that the aydio CD format
can
accurately preserve more data than LP production. However, audio
production
is an art and as well as a science. There's no guarantee that any
particular
CD has more or less purity than the corresponding LP. The CD format has
the
potential to preserve music more accurately, but there's no guarantee that
people will fully exploit it.

My recollection is vinyl LPs can't possibly attain the frequency
range of CDs.

The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can easily
have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy will have
actual
performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB being typical of the
physical limits of the LP medium.

I try to repharse my question:

Is more audible data lost recording pure digital including creating a cd
than lost recording all analog,, including vinyl LP?

Please translate the4 following to something I might be able to understand:
". . . based on 24 bit, 44.1 KHz tracking and mastering, which is
eventually burned onto CDs at 16 bits and 44.1 KHz. Obviously there is some
loss of data. . . ." Is this the same recording standards used my good
quality commerical releases?

At least 44,100 times per channel.

What does this mean? Is sampling done over time? If so, how frequently?


Where is musical data lost w/ LPs? dynamic range? accuracy?

The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can easily
have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy will have
actual
performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB being typical of the
physical limits of the LP medium.

That's very helpful.


Mike


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message

Questions:

If a recording is made using all digital equipment is any data
lost during the recording and cd creation process?

That depends on how you actually do the recording and CD creation process.
For example, many of my music production efforts are
You can't do much of interest in audio production without losing data -
data
loss is implied by simply changing levels, whether that is done in the
analog or digital domain.

How many times per second is musical audio source sampled when
converting from analog source to digital cds?

At least 44,100 times per channel.

I ask this question because a buddy was telling me how "pure" vinyl
LPs sound compared to CDs.

He's probably just posturing. There's no doubt that the aydio CD format
can
accurately preserve more data than LP production. However, audio
production
is an art and as well as a science. There's no guarantee that any
particular
CD has more or less purity than the corresponding LP. The CD format has
the
potential to preserve music more accurately, but there's no guarantee that
people will fully exploit it.

My recollection is vinyl LPs can't possibly attain the frequency
range of CDs.

The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can easily
have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy will have
actual
performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB being typical of the
physical limits of the LP medium.

"Mike" wrote in message

I try to repharse my question:

Is more audible data lost recording pure digital including creating a
cd than lost recording all analog,, including vinyl LP?

No audible data need be lost in the process of making a CD.

The LP recording process is far more imprecise. I don't believe that anybody
has seriously claimed that it would be possible to record and playback
technically demanding kinds of music using LP technology, and have an
outcome that was always sonically indistinguishable from the source. OTOH,
that claim can easily supported for CD technology.

Please translate the4 following to something I might be able to
understand: ". . . based on 24 bit, 44.1 KHz tracking and
mastering, which is eventually burned onto CDs at 16 bits and 44.1
KHz. Obviously there is some loss of data. . . ." Is this the same
recording standards used my good quality commercial releases?

Commercial releases are often tracked and mastered with 24 bit samples. This
minimizes the degradation during the audio production process. Audio
production can involve many processing steps and errors can accumulate.
Consumer playback of recordings is usually quite a bit simpler.

At least 44,100 times per channel.

What does this mean? Is sampling done over time?

Yes.

If so, how frequently?

CD audio is sampled 44,100 times per second per channel.

Where is musical data lost w/ LPs? dynamic range? accuracy?

LP recording and playback is a mechanical process. The translation from
audio signal to mechanics and back to an audio signal is full of
inaccuracies of various kinds.

The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can
easily have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy
will have actual performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB
being typical of the physical limits of the LP medium.

That's very helpful.

I try!

;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message

?

CD audio is sampled 44,100 times per second per channel.
During the recording process it's sampled 44.100 per second?

My friend claims audible data is lost during the sampling process.
I don't see how that's possible if the source is sampled 44,100 times
second?

What does 16bit or 24bit mean during the recording process or playback
process, e.g., Denon 3803 16bit and Denon 4802
24 bit, 96kHz A/D conversion? I use Denon as an example only because I own
a Denon receiver. Years ago, I read an article in Stereophile
that described all of this. However, my memory isbn't what it used to be.

He's probably just posturing. . . . . .

No he isn't, just a rigid guy who hasn't listened to good audio systems in
years.

Where is musical data lost w/ LPs? dynamic range? accuracy?

LP recording and playback is a mechanical process. The translation from
audio signal to mechanics and back to an audio signal is full of
inaccuracies of various kinds.


The biggest differences are in the area of dynamic range. CDs can
easily have more than 90 dB dynamic range. In practice LPs you buy
will have actual performance in the 45 to 65 dB range, with 65 dB
being typical of the physical limits of the LP medium.

That's very helpful.

I try!

;-)

Thanks,

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message

?

CD audio is sampled 44,100 times per second per channel.

During the recording process it's sampled 44.100 per second?

Yes.

My friend claims audible data is lost during the sampling process.

I don't see how that's possible if the source is sampled 44,100 times
second?

All sound at frequencies 22.05 KHz are totally lost. Noise is added, which
obscures very faint sounds. However, it is highly questionable, to say the
least, whether these loses are audible.

What does 16bit or 24bit mean during the recording process or playback
process, e.g., Denon 3803 16bit and Denon 4802 24 bit, 96kHz A/D
conversion?

The number of bits can be a significant factor in determining how low the
inherent noise of the recording process is. All other things being equal, a
16 bit process puts the noise down no further than about 93 dB. For 24 bits
noise is down no further than 144 dB. Note that I say "no further". When
manufacturers say that a converter has "16 bits" or "20 bits" or "24 bits"
they are saying how many bits are processed in the digital domain.
Converters are hybrid devices, that exist in both the analog and digital
domain. Most of their imperfections are usually in the analog side. A
converter that is "24 bits" may have more noise on its analog side than
another converter that is "16 bits". In fact, very few converters perform
beyond the 20 bit level. The converters in most consumer equipment performs
at the 14 to 16 bit level, no matter how many bits are processed on their
digital sides. The ear has a hard time hearing improvements beyond the 13 or
14 bit level, in typical use for listening to pre-recorded music in the
places and circumstances where most people listen to music.


I use Denon as an example only because
I own a Denon receiver. Years ago, I read an article in Stereophile
that described all of this. However, my memory isn't what it used
to be.

He's probably just posturing. . . . . .

No he isn't, just a rigid guy who hasn't listened to good audio
systems in years.'

IME many people who tout the superiority of vinyl are actually attracted by
a kind of sentimentality factor.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message

t
ext deleted

You've answered my questions clearly so I can understand what's going on.

Thanks.

IME many people who tout the superiority of vinyl are actually attracted
by
a kind of sentimentality factor.

Agreed. Now have the facts needed to explain some of the major differences
to him.

Mike