Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

Regards,
G. Verheij

In article ,
G. Verheij wrote:

Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

The etymotics website lists a Netherlands distributor:

http://www.elacin.nl/

You might try the "one size fits most" ER-20s first. They don't require
ear molds. I think you can buy them online from the USA.

Stephen

In article ,
MINe 109 wrote:
You might try the "one size fits most" ER-20s first. They don't require
ear molds. I think you can buy them online from the USA.

But, they're not as flat as the 15dB models, and 20 is bordering on
too much attenuation, if you plan to mix through them. The 15dB model
is the best choice, IMHO.


Regards,

Monte McGuire

(Monte P McGuire) wrote:



In article ,
MINe 109 wrote:
You might try the "one size fits most" ER-20s first. They don't require
ear molds. I think you can buy them online from the USA.

But, they're not as flat as the 15dB models, and 20 is bordering on
too much attenuation, if you plan to mix through them. The 15dB model
is the best choice, IMHO.


Regards,

Monte McGuire


The ER-20s are not as balanced in attenuation as the other products (yes, I've
used and own them all) but offer 12-dB of attenuation. Agreed that they may not
be useful for mixing in general; but the attenuation is barely adequate for
even moderately loud PA events and inadequate for any car audio event.

about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'


Schoonenberg, the Dutch chain of stores that basically sell hearing
aids, carry them. Just ask for ER-15. Before you go, have your
physician clean your ear canals. They'll make a custom mold, and you
can pick up the earplugs in about two weeks. The filters can be
exchanged, so you can even test drive various filters. The store lent
me some 25 dB filters to try for a week, but I stuck with the 15 dB. I
paid about 155 euros two years ago. This is my second pair after using
the previous pair for about 8 years. 5 cents a day isn't bad for a
product that makes lousy sound seem less lousy. It also works great in
dance joints where people like to shout into your ears. On planes it
reduces the discomfort of changes in pressure.


Chris


______________________________________
Please remove the r from my address to reply by email

G. Verheij writes:
Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

I'd try to find an audiologist that is clued into the "hearing
preservation" end of the business and not just the "let's try to
mitigate after your hearing is already shot" end of the business.

I have details of my custom earplugs on my web site. If you're mixing
sound it's well worth your time to get some--you can't terribly flat
without a deep ear mold, and you'll find that it's well worth the
money. THey also look better and more discrete.

http://www.toddh.net/music/ear/

Best Regards
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

I have used the common soft foam earplugs found in factories to go to
concerts with for years and had excellent sound quality with them while
protecting my hearing well. Don't know if they are adequate to do live sound
with though... The high end came through, but I have *no* idea if it was
accurate enough to mix with. That seems like a really hard thing to measure
with scientific accuracy: )


"G. Verheij" wrote in message
news
Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

Regards,
G. Verheij

"G. Verheij" wrote in message
news
Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

Regards,
G. Verheij
_____________________

Hey GV, since they're just across the pond....have you checked out Bilsom,
see:

http://www.bilsom.com/#

I have not been able to find it on the West Coast of Canada for quite some
time now, but it sure treated me well decades ago....

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research

I used the Etymotic plugs (ER 15) for years and was pretty happy with
them. They are not flat!!!! They reduce 15 dbs of high end and leave
the low end more or less untouched.

Isn't the rule for building a studio that you need 9 feet of
insulation to completely eliminate the very lowest frequencies? You
can't deal with low frequencies with a half inch of insulation. But,
you don't need to. The high frequencies are what is damaging, and
what you're going to lose in your hearing eventually.

I can't imagine mixing with them (and I wouldn't hire anyone who did).
I used them to rehearse with and on stage.

But I lost them and went back to my old standard - rolled up toilet
paper. Low and behold, they sounded better! More natural, and more
reduction of volume.

I've used every type of hearing protection (Ear plugs, the orange
foamy ones, wax, cotton balls, cigarette filters, gun protectors, and
headphones with no signal) and the rolled up toilet paper is always
my favorite. In addition to the good sound, they are available
everywhere, free and always clean.

I'm 50, have played drums with loud music all my life, and can still
hear fine.

Ken Winokur / Alloy Orchestra

2mb wrote:
I have used the common soft foam earplugs found in factories to go to
concerts with for years and had excellent sound quality with them while
protecting my hearing well. Don't know if they are adequate to do live sound
with though... The high end came through, but I have *no* idea if it was
accurate enough to mix with. That seems like a really hard thing to measure
with scientific accuracy: )

I use them all the time, and they definitely attenuate the high end a lot
more than the midrange. Upper midrange sounds a little bit constricted
and muffled. But you can mix on them in a pinch if you know what to expect
with them, and they're $25 for a box of 200 pairs.

I'd much rather use the higher grade musicians plugs that are intended to
be flat, but I'd rather use the yellow foam things than nothing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"2mb" writes:

I have used the common soft foam earplugs found in factories to go to
concerts with for years and had excellent sound quality with them

Excellent sound quality with foam? You must not be terribly
discerning as they are FAR from flat.

As for ability to reduce SPL, they're hard to beat no doubt, but it
comes at a cost of severe coloration.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

G. Verheij wrote in message . ..

I've been using foam earplugs for over 10 years. I buy them by the
box--3M 1100 (200 pairs). They claim to attenuate close to 40 db. at
most frequencies. I started with foam after trying the molded ones. At
first I thought the molded plugs were great, but then I realized that
my ears would ring when I took them out. I realised they were crap and
went with the foam ones from then on. At first it sucked, especially
when playing music, it took over a year to figure it all out. But now
I just a good sound and level going and put in the earplugs and forget
about them. It's amazing how offensive live cymbals sound after hardly
hearing them without plugs for so long. It's a sacrifice for sure. I
love the way a guitar amp sounds when standing in front of it, but I
also want to be able to have my hearing available, in case I live past
40.

When I was an assistant, a lot of engineers would mix way louder than
I could handle, so I'd use foam earplugs there too. I've tried to mix
with them, just for a goof but it's hopeless. I would do as everyone
else says, set up and check your mix and then pop them in.

I definitely hear what was said about low frequncies. In some
situations where the bass is REAL loud or reinforced by the shape of
the room, the frequencies actually will resonate in your skull and no
type of earplug will help that.

"Todd H." wrote:

"2mb" writes:

I have used the common soft foam earplugs found in factories to go to
concerts with for years and had excellent sound quality with them

Excellent sound quality with foam? You must not be terribly
discerning as they are FAR from flat.

Earplugs are not so much about flatness, because if it is some 6 dB
above the resultant elevated threshold, then the brain can make use of
it, it comes with a neat autocorrelator and eq ex works just because the
frequency response of its sensors can vary so much. Read a recent follow
up of mine in a similar thread in alt.audio.pro.live-sound ....

As for ability to reduce SPL, they're hard to beat no doubt, but it
comes at a cost of severe coloration.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

--
************************************************** *************
* \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// *
* \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// *
************************************************** *******

In article ,
Junkmetal wrote:
I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research

I used the Etymotic plugs (ER 15) for years and was pretty happy with
them. They are not flat!!!! They reduce 15 dbs of high end and leave
the low end more or less untouched.

Only if your earmolds were improperly made. The mold must be deep
enough or bass will leak around the end, giving the results you
describe. This is unfortunately pretty common - most of the people
making the molds don't make them deep enough for fear that the end
user will return them because of discomfort. Properly made, you will
experience neither excessive bass nor discomfort.


Regards,

Monte McGuire

Peter Larsen writes:
"Todd H." wrote:

"2mb" writes:

I have used the common soft foam earplugs found in factories to go to
concerts with for years and had excellent sound quality with them

Excellent sound quality with foam? You must not be terribly
discerning as they are FAR from flat.

Earplugs are not so much about flatness, because if it is some 6 dB
above the resultant elevated threshold, then the brain can make use of
it, it comes with a neat autocorrelator and eq ex works just because the
frequency response of its sensors can vary so much. Read a recent follow
up of mine in a similar thread in alt.audio.pro.live-sound ....

No doubt the ear and brain do compensate for some coloration...but let
me ask if you've ever tried to perform music with 20-30dB of foam
reduction stuffed in your ears? And then compared to doing the same
with a custom molded ear plug? Or played with a drummer who stuffs
his head with a foam plug and then hits harder than he would otherwise
just because he doesn't think his cymbals are "projecting"-- much to
the pain of his bandmates?

I can assure you there's a difference, and there is such a thing as
having too much earplug in. For instance, I sure as heck don't want a
sound engineer wearing plugs (especialy any sort of foam plug!) while
they're adjusting a mix. That's a recipe for harsh eq and too loud a
mix.

Non-discering ears, or those just going to listen to a concert may be
happy with foam plugs, but folks are kidding themselves if they claim
they're sonically superior to properly molded/fitted custom earplugs.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

(Monte P McGuire)

In article ,
Junkmetal wrote:
I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research

I used the Etymotic plugs (ER 15) for years and was pretty happy with
them. They are not flat!!!! They reduce 15 dbs of high end and leave
the low end more or less untouched.

Only if your earmolds were improperly made. The mold must be deep
enough or bass will leak around the end, giving the results you
describe. This is unfortunately pretty common - most of the people
making the molds don't make them deep enough for fear that the end
user will return them because of discomfort. Properly made, you will
experience neither excessive bass nor discomfort.


Regards,

Monte McGuire


I'd agree. Another problem is that over a number of years my 90s-vintage
ear-mold hardened up making a good seal harder to get as time marched on.

"Todd H." wrote:

Earplugs are not so much about flatness, because if it is some
6 dB above the resultant elevated threshold ... a recent
follow up of mine in a similar thread in alt.audio.pro.live-sound

No doubt the ear and brain do compensate for some coloration
...but let me ask if you've ever tried to perform music with
20-30dB of foam reduction stuffed in your ears?

No. Please go find the post referred to, if it is not in your local
newsreader archive, then you can find it on the web at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...40mail.tele.dk

And then compared to doing the same with a custom molded ear plug?

In the unlikely event that I should ever need to play electical guitar
and do it on a simms watts amp or whatever other large sonic implement
as may be relevant, then I would most certainly use full length yellow
EAR's, and possibly shooters ear muffs on top and then go crank the darn
thing to get it to really "sound" ... O;-) ... read on please, more on
this below.

Or played with a drummer who stuffs
his head with a foam plug and then hits harder than he would otherwise
just because he doesn't think his cymbals are "projecting"-- much to
the pain of his bandmates?

The problem here is that the drummer already has the threshold curve
described by the attenuation curve printed on the box of standard yellow
EAR's. A skilled operator of any tool *knows* by the feel of the tool in
the hand.

I can assure you there's a difference, and there is such
a thing as having too much earplug in.

Of course there is such a thing. Back when the yellow EAR's appeared on
the market I was asked to test them in the printing house I worked in
because I was the one guy to always use the bilsom fiberglass wadding,
and they sucked in comparison, I got dizzy from the over attenuation and
rejected them because being dizzy on a printing press is potentially
unsafe.
Also at concerts, the fiberglass wadding was way superior and easy to
adjust for the desired attenuation and yes, some 15 dB is the right
amount and it did prevent experiencing short duration tinnitus and that
feeling of being numbed.

I'm also about the only one I know of to have used it without ending up
with years and years of cronic ear irritation because of glassfibers
that had penetrated the skin of the ear canal due to improper deployment
(not folding and rolling it as indicated on the package). It was a truly
and remarkably insane idea to come up with such a product.

For instance, I sure as heck don't want a sound engineer
wearing plugs (especialy any sort of foam plug!) while
they're adjusting a mix.

I have again and again posted my suggestion of matching the yellow EAR's
to the earcanal and situation with a pair of scissors, including the
caveats on so doing, such as voiding the promised performance and the
benefit of removing the membrane on the inside end: better ability to
handle the natural humidity in the ear canal. I have also again and
again posted my advice on inserting the plugs well ahead of the time of
need so as to allow the brain a one hour adjustment time.

That's a recipe for harsh eq

Are you hiring idiots? - a *sound* engineer does not deploy an upper
midrange or a treble control in boost mode with any of the mics you are
likely to find on a stage except in the unlikely case of a MD 201 that
can do with a 4 dB treble boost to match unlinear condensers in sound.
Back in the old days I noticed that the better the setups deployed by
CSR the less eq were used on the mixers. But yes, someone not being
aware of the detection modifications will get things wrong.

and too loud a mix.

The real problem, and let us go grab that one, is that most people have
pre-existing hearing damage when getting to the stage of hearing safety
wisdom and thus have to use ear protection with reduced protection to be
able to function.

But yes, this could happen, the too loud mix will however be a
consequence of being used to the total feel of too loud a mix and the
feeling of pain in the ears may be required by some. Iggy Pop reportedly
insisted that the monitor mix should physically hurt when in Copenhagen
way longtime ago.

Non-discering ears, or those just going to listen to a concert
may be happy with foam plugs,

Does it ever strike anyone as odd to have performers wearing earplugs
playing music mixed by people wearing earplugs for audiences wearing
earplugs .....?

but folks are kidding themselves if they claim they're sonically
superior to properly molded/fitted custom earplugs.

They are most certainly not. I agree fully and unreservedly. As for
actual use of non-ideal ear protection surely any skilled person will
know what the properties of that protection is and allow for them.
Simply keeping the fingers away from the eq portion of the channel strip
is a simple way of not goofing sonically, another is to not mix a
triangle by ear ... knew your setup, know your meters, know that you can
trust your meters.

And using the classic yellow EAR, probably modified as often suggested
with caveats about reduced attetuation and certainly inserted a full
hour prior to being needed, for mixing is a last resort kinda option,
but it comes across as more of an option than using the filters from
cigarettes, something I know one guy did use back in the very old days.

Bilsom has a conical yellow plug that is also usable but somewhat
uncomfortable because the entire "business end" is sealed and there is a
green attempt to copy the EAR plug, that one does not use the strange
semi-rigid foam and relies on being impregnated with a waxy substance,
and thus it is not washable.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

There are many things that we do not disagree on Todd.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** *************
* \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// *
* \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// *
************************************************** *******

Hi,

I have a set of ER 15 and the audologist just refered to them as "musician's
earplugs". I am in Ireland but I know for a fact that mine (and most) are
made in the Netherlands so you should be able to get them made cheaper.

I'm finding mine really hard to get used to and haven't been wearing them as
much as I should. I'm probably going to switch to ER 9's for my purposes (a
musician who sings). one problem is that when you sing or talk with them in
you get that sensation as if you have a cold or flu or your talking with
regular earplugs in. I suppose its to be expected, though I didn't!

Good luck and let me know how you get on,

Martin
" ~ rob ~" wrote in message
news:fmbJb.903565$pl3.582921@pd7tw3no...

"G. Verheij" wrote in message
news
Hello All,

to begin with: Happy New Year !!

I'm looking for quality ear protection, and read some good remarks
about the ER 15 and ER 25 Musician's Earplugs form Etymotic Research
on the web and in these groups I do some work as sound engineer at a
local club, so these seem like a good choice.

Does anyone of you know under wich brand-name these are available in
the Netherlands ? One of the audiologists I've spoken to had no idea
what I meant, according to him 'linear ear-plugs do not exist'

Regards,
G. Verheij
_____________________

Hey GV, since they're just across the pond....have you checked out Bilsom,
see:

http://www.bilsom.com/#

I have not been able to find it on the West Coast of Canada for quite some
time now, but it sure treated me well decades ago....

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

Thank you all for your input and 'interesting' solutions for
protecting my ears. Of course the best solution is to put not
everything to the limit, this will also protect the hearing of the
audience (and bandmembers)

Talk about the hearing of others: any suggestions for a cheap,
resonable quality dB-meter ??

G. Verheij

"Martin Quinn" writes:
Hi,

I have a set of ER 15 and the audologist just refered to them as
"musician's earplugs". I am in Ireland but I know for a fact that
mine (and most) are made in the Netherlands so you should be able to
get them made cheaper.

I'm finding mine really hard to get used to and haven't been wearing
them as much as I should. I'm probably going to switch to ER 9's for
my purposes (a musician who sings). one problem is that when you
sing or talk with them in you get that sensation as if you have a
cold or flu or your talking with regular earplugs in. I suppose its
to be expected, though I didn't!

In-ear monitors may be the next step for you. No singer I know that's
tried them has ever gone back. You get the isolation you want from
stage volumes, and you get to hear as much or as little of yourself as
you like.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

G. Verheij writes:

Thank you all for your input and 'interesting' solutions for
protecting my ears. Of course the best solution is to put not
everything to the limit, this will also protect the hearing of the
audience (and bandmembers)

Oh absolutely... if you have a clueful drummer (typically the limiting
factor on stage volume), this becomes possible.

Talk about the hearing of others: any suggestions for a cheap,
resonable quality dB-meter ??

Radio Shack's work fine and there's very likely a store near you.

--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

Todd,

In-ear monitors may be the next step for you. No singer I know that's
tried them has ever gone back. You get the isolation you want from
stage volumes, and you get to hear as much or as little of yourself as
you like.

You don't know me, but I've tried in-ear monitors on stage and I don't use them now. I use the ER 15 plugs instead. Sure, you get a
great monitor sound, but you also get one step away from the music. It's like listening to music in headphones, detailed but a bit
artificial. The moment I changed to plugs I felt free and more relaxed while singing, I could hear and feel the groove.

BTW I not just the singer, I'm strumming a guitar too. Maybe that's why I really didn't like the in ear monitors...

Cheers,
-Roger
www.cdbaby.com/cd/backslidecats
www.soundclick.com/rogerhaggstrom

I'm a drummer, and the best sound you get on drums, for rock any way, is to
play loud..


Anyway, see an audiologist to get custom molded ear plugs with changable
filters from 5 to 25 db. That's what I did, and they work great. It sounds
like someone just turned a volume knob down.

"Dave" writes:

I'm a drummer, and the best sound you get on drums, for rock any
way, is to play loud..

As a drummer myself, I don't disagree from an "ideal" perspective, but
unless you're playing true concerts with large stages in venues where
people are there solely to enjoy the art of the music being put forth,
you have to trade this "only sounds good loud" myth off against the
clueful realities of the venue where you don't want to damage your
bandmates or audience.

If you're in a band that plays in small to medium clubs, and your
idiot drummer brings the ambient value up to the point where the
bartenders can't hear drink orders, it's time for a more clueful
drummer.

If the audience has to wear hearing protection to enjoy the show
safely, it's quite simply too loud.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."

FWIW, there is a full-page article in today's New York Times called "The
Shushing of the Symphony -- The Noise Police Have Arrived (So Hide That
Trombone)" [Arts & Leisure].

It reports on dangers to symphony orchestra musicans (e.g.
brass/percussion putting out over 130 dB), some of the obstacles to
avoiding it (e.g. job security), some shortcomings of earplugs
(particularly for an acoustic 'group'), and new regulations imposed by
the European Union last February, intended to protect musicians with
directives such as limiting exposure to damaging levels. The article is
available online (registration required):

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/11/ar...ic/11OEST.html

- Brian