I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

Thanks in advance,
Doc

Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads.

Well, then turn the overheads down in the mix! If you listened to the
drums from above and the drummer was good, you'd hear a decent mix of
everything, and you'd have a pretty good balance of the drum kit with
the possible exception of the kick for some kinds of music. Overheads
are not cymbal mics, they're intended to pick up the entire instrument.
When using overheads, you should strive for a well balanced sound in
those mics and consider any other mics to be "spot" mics to add a bit
more presence.

Most of the "famous enginner" stories you'll read about recording drums
will have the statement "I get 90% of the drum sound from the
overheads." Take that advice and run with it. If the drums don't sound
good, fix the drums, the drummer, or the room. While everybody has his
favorite mic for overheads, it really isn't all that critical if the
sound is there, and if the sound isn't there, you won't fix it by
changing mics.

Doc Weaver wrote:

I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

In a studio situation I start with a semi ORTF (90deg)
just over the drummer's head. AKG C460/CK61.
In a live setting I just stick one behind the drummer's
head aimed forward, and if I feel I need a spot mic I
hang one facing down over the ride. I've also miked
cymbals from underneath with passable results, the
swishing wasn't too terible.

I might suggest weighing EQ vs coaching the drummer.

rd

I've had good luck with these two mics.
AKG C 414 and Rode NT1.
I place the mics about a foot over the left and right crash cymbals.
I aim them a bit to the oustide of the bell.
I compress them and eq them.
I ussually drop of anything below 80 htz.
There is also some clangyness around 1-2 K i get rid of.
Good luck,
Matt M

In article .com, RD Jones
says...


Doc Weaver wrote:

I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

In a studio situation I start with a semi ORTF (90deg)
just over the drummer's head. AKG C460/CK61.
In a live setting I just stick one behind the drummer's
head aimed forward, and if I feel I need a spot mic I
hang one facing down over the ride. I've also miked
cymbals from underneath with passable results, the
swishing wasn't too terible.

I might suggest weighing EQ vs coaching the drummer.

rd

Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

A bigger room.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:27:12 -0500, Doc Weaver wrote
(in article .com):

I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

Thanks in advance,
Doc


don't use C1000 on the overheads...or anywhere else.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

I have already been down that road and I agree

Good advice.

Mark

don't use C1000 on the overheads...or anywhere else.

Ty Ford

don't use C1000 on the overheads...or anywhere else.

Ty Ford

Ever!

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"Ty Ford" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:27:12 -0500, Doc Weaver wrote
(in article .com):

I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

Thanks in advance,
Doc





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

What worked best for me is putting the guitar amp in the booth
and the drums on the floor - small spaces will always sound like small
spaces at best, even on the floor of your room the drums will still
probabaly want more "air". But anyway, perhaps you should begin with
what the whole kit sounds like in the overheads, make that sound good,
and *then* add in the spot mics as needed. I was never happy with the
sound of close mics really, until I started working from the overheads
back to the close mics rather than the other way around.

Second, you might try omni's for micing the cymbals if you want
more isolation from the rest of the kit. Get them close, maybe try
using the cymbals themsleves as baffles from the rest of the kit.
Because they are omnis they will sound more open than doing the same
thing with cardiods. I have done this with B&K 4006's and this really
opened up the stifled in a drum booth sound, but the $45 Behringer
ECM8000's are good enough omnis for this kind of thing if you haven't
got any really good omni's at your disposal. They have a pretty flat
frequency response and won't color the off axis stuff unacceptably,
theuir drawback is self noise but on a drum kit this is probabaly not
an issue.

You could also try PZM mics on the ceiling itself. Oh, and stick
your head in the booth from time to time and check out what the
drummers acutually sounds like in the the room. A good drummer on a
decent kit is where things start, when you have that sometimes what is
hard to do is to make things sound bad!

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio for Video/Music Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Thanks for answering my question Will, I will definitly give that a
try.
Doc

"WillStG" wrote in message
ups.com...
Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

What worked best for me is putting the guitar amp in the booth
and the drums on the floor - small spaces will always sound like small
spaces at best, even on the floor of your room the drums will still
probabaly want more "air". But anyway, perhaps you should begin with
what the whole kit sounds like in the overheads, make that sound good,
and *then* add in the spot mics as needed. I was never happy with the
sound of close mics really, until I started working from the overheads
back to the close mics rather than the other way around.

Second, you might try omni's for micing the cymbals if you want
more isolation from the rest of the kit. Get them close, maybe try
using the cymbals themsleves as baffles from the rest of the kit.
Because they are omnis they will sound more open than doing the same
thing with cardiods. I have done this with B&K 4006's and this really
opened up the stifled in a drum booth sound, but the $45 Behringer
ECM8000's are good enough omnis for this kind of thing if you haven't
got any really good omni's at your disposal. They have a pretty flat
frequency response and won't color the off axis stuff unacceptably,
theuir drawback is self noise but on a drum kit this is probabaly not
an issue.

You could also try PZM mics on the ceiling itself. Oh, and stick
your head in the booth from time to time and check out what the
drummers acutually sounds like in the the room. A good drummer on a
decent kit is where things start, when you have that sometimes what is
hard to do is to make things sound bad!

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio for Video/Music Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

You didn't mention spaced pair - that's worth a try. I've frequently used a
close-in spaced pair. One one each side of the kit, maybe 6"-10" directly
above cymbals (sometimes using a 3rd center mic on large/many-cymbaled
kits). As Will mentioned, omnis can work, but IMO, the cymbals-as-baffles
approach is more important. I myself think the "90% from OH" sound just does
NOT work in many small rooms - many of the engineers that use this method
have the luxury of larger, better sounding rooms (and drummers, and kits) to
help out the sound. If you don't, your approach may need to be different.
Don't be afraid to move the OH mics in close.

Mikey
Nova Music Productions

Michael Wozniak wrote:
You didn't mention spaced pair - that's worth a try. I've frequently used a
close-in spaced pair. One one each side of the kit, maybe 6"-10" directly
above cymbals (sometimes using a 3rd center mic on large/many-cymbaled
kits). As Will mentioned, omnis can work, but IMO, the cymbals-as-baffles
approach is more important.

Jus to clarify that's what I was talking about with the omni's
over cymbals approach, spaced mic pairs, in this case omnis placed in a
manner similar to how spaced cardiods right over the cymbals are often
used in Live Sound applications.

I myself think the "90% from OH" sound just does
NOT work in many small rooms - many of the engineers that use this method
have the luxury of larger, better sounding rooms (and drummers, and kits) to
help out the sound. If you don't, your approach may need to be different.

Personally I like the "overheads are more important than the close
mics" approach even outdoors where there is no room sound at all, even
in TV studios where little consideration has been given to the
acoustics so formica and glass reflections are bouncing all over the
place. Over the drummer's right shoulder facing the snare center kit
should be close enough to the kit to sound pretty good most all of the
time, and if you have too much bad room sound in there try a narrower
mic pattern. But I have had consistently good luck with the cardiod
patterns on AKG 414 B-ULS's for this purpose, and if you have those
mics in your kit you might find having a use for them other than up
close to anything is a good way to utilize them.

Of course, YMMV...

Will Miho
NY TV/Music/Audio Post/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Thanks guys, Education and Experience just wasn't enough this time.
Thanks for the collective experience.

Doc

Of course, YMMV...

Your mileage and your EQ. I like 414s for overheads, but they can tend to
be a little bright. Not adversely so, just slightly prominent on the top
end. Decent EQ will tame the problem and still leave plenty of air in the
sound. Bad EQ is obviously a no no.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"WillStG" wrote in message
oups.com...
Michael Wozniak wrote:
You didn't mention spaced pair - that's worth a try. I've frequently
used a
close-in spaced pair. One one each side of the kit, maybe 6"-10"
directly
above cymbals (sometimes using a 3rd center mic on large/many-cymbaled
kits). As Will mentioned, omnis can work, but IMO, the
cymbals-as-baffles
approach is more important.

Jus to clarify that's what I was talking about with the omni's
over cymbals approach, spaced mic pairs, in this case omnis placed in a
manner similar to how spaced cardiods right over the cymbals are often
used in Live Sound applications.

I myself think the "90% from OH" sound just does
NOT work in many small rooms - many of the engineers that use this
method
have the luxury of larger, better sounding rooms (and drummers, and
kits) to
help out the sound. If you don't, your approach may need to be
different.

Personally I like the "overheads are more important than the close
mics" approach even outdoors where there is no room sound at all, even
in TV studios where little consideration has been given to the
acoustics so formica and glass reflections are bouncing all over the
place. Over the drummer's right shoulder facing the snare center kit
should be close enough to the kit to sound pretty good most all of the
time, and if you have too much bad room sound in there try a narrower
mic pattern. But I have had consistently good luck with the cardiod
patterns on AKG 414 B-ULS's for this purpose, and if you have those
mics in your kit you might find having a use for them other than up
close to anything is a good way to utilize them.



Will Miho
NY TV/Music/Audio Post/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Roger W. Norman wrote:
Of course, YMMV...

Your mileage and your EQ. I like 414s for overheads, but they can tend to
be a little bright. Not adversely so, just slightly prominent on the top
end. Decent EQ will tame the problem and still leave plenty of air in the
sound. Bad EQ is obviously a no no.

Well like I said Roger, if you have Akg 414B-ULS mics in your kit
you might find having a use for them other than up close on anything is
a good way to utilize them. Over the drummer's right shoulder pointed
down at the snare is 5-6 feet give or take from center kit, and that
has worked pretty well for me (and the limiters I've used most do take
some of the brightness off when they kick in.)

Will Miho
NY TV/Music/Audio Post/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I've gotten very good drum sounds with a spaced pair of hypers on OH
and a mic on the bass drum and that's it. Of course this is jazz music
and i'm working with sensitive drummers. hypers are good in this
situation when you're in a small room. Since I finally used the
schoeps cmc641 my ears have awakened! Alas I don't own any but my pair
of THE hypers gets the job done in a pinch.

Nate

I was talking to Glenn Meadows about drum miking, and even on a hardwood
floor he suggested putting the drums on plywood with some boundry mics and
then use the overheads along with the boundry mics, adding only a little bit
of the snare/tom spot mics. Works quite well. Rick Chinn mentioned the
same thing, especially regarding a small room (11' X 7' should be big enough
for drums, but "dead" sucks the life out of them).

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"WillStG" wrote in message
ups.com...
Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

What worked best for me is putting the guitar amp in the booth
and the drums on the floor - small spaces will always sound like small
spaces at best, even on the floor of your room the drums will still
probabaly want more "air". But anyway, perhaps you should begin with
what the whole kit sounds like in the overheads, make that sound good,
and *then* add in the spot mics as needed. I was never happy with the
sound of close mics really, until I started working from the overheads
back to the close mics rather than the other way around.

Second, you might try omni's for micing the cymbals if you want
more isolation from the rest of the kit. Get them close, maybe try
using the cymbals themsleves as baffles from the rest of the kit.
Because they are omnis they will sound more open than doing the same
thing with cardiods. I have done this with B&K 4006's and this really
opened up the stifled in a drum booth sound, but the $45 Behringer
ECM8000's are good enough omnis for this kind of thing if you haven't
got any really good omni's at your disposal. They have a pretty flat
frequency response and won't color the off axis stuff unacceptably,
theuir drawback is self noise but on a drum kit this is probabaly not
an issue.

You could also try PZM mics on the ceiling itself. Oh, and stick
your head in the booth from time to time and check out what the
drummers acutually sounds like in the the room. A good drummer on a
decent kit is where things start, when you have that sometimes what is
hard to do is to make things sound bad!

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio for Video/Music Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I agree. And for what it's worth :
http://www.imjohn.com/DrumFloor/index.htm

--
John L Rice
www.DeliriumFix.com

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
I was talking to Glenn Meadows about drum miking, and even on a hardwood
floor he suggested putting the drums on plywood with some boundry mics and
then use the overheads along with the boundry mics, adding only a little
bit
of the snare/tom spot mics. Works quite well. Rick Chinn mentioned the
same thing, especially regarding a small room (11' X 7' should be big
enough
for drums, but "dead" sucks the life out of them).

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"WillStG" wrote in message
ups.com...
Doc Weaver wrote:
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

What worked best for me is putting the guitar amp in the booth
and the drums on the floor - small spaces will always sound like small
spaces at best, even on the floor of your room the drums will still
probabaly want more "air". But anyway, perhaps you should begin with
what the whole kit sounds like in the overheads, make that sound good,
and *then* add in the spot mics as needed. I was never happy with the
sound of close mics really, until I started working from the overheads
back to the close mics rather than the other way around.

Second, you might try omni's for micing the cymbals if you want
more isolation from the rest of the kit. Get them close, maybe try
using the cymbals themsleves as baffles from the rest of the kit.
Because they are omnis they will sound more open than doing the same
thing with cardiods. I have done this with B&K 4006's and this really
opened up the stifled in a drum booth sound, but the $45 Behringer
ECM8000's are good enough omnis for this kind of thing if you haven't
got any really good omni's at your disposal. They have a pretty flat
frequency response and won't color the off axis stuff unacceptably,
theuir drawback is self noise but on a drum kit this is probabaly not
an issue.

You could also try PZM mics on the ceiling itself. Oh, and stick
your head in the booth from time to time and check out what the
drummers acutually sounds like in the the room. A good drummer on a
decent kit is where things start, when you have that sometimes what is
hard to do is to make things sound bad!

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio for Video/Music Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

You are thinking about it wrong. You want something resembling what the
drummer is hearing, hence the overheads. Mike had it right, but "then turn
them down in the mix" is actually the wrong way to look at it. Turn up the
overheads and then add the other mics to fill out the sound. Use a nice mic
about 4 feet out in front of the drums (assuming you have the space and a
nice room sound) and aimed between the kick and the toms. Mix to your
pleasure. Think of drums as being a single instrument and that might help
what you come up with.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"Doc Weaver" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need suggestions on setting overhead mics. I've tried outside-in,
inside-out, off axis, and all three high and low in the booth. I have
used large and small condensers on these three styles, but only small
condensers on close cymbal miking. No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads. Of course if I close mic the
cymbals they phase with the movement of the cymbal. Cymbals are all As
and Ks. The room is 11' x 7' and completely dead.

If you have battled this before, what worked for you?

Thanks in advance,
Doc

Remember to try flipping the phase on both overheads.
Sometimes there can be an acoustic phasing problem

Remember to try flipping the phase on both overheads.
Sometimes there can be an acoustic phasing problem

Well, phasing would more likely come for distance problems smearing the
image somewhat. That can generally be fixed by careful placement whilst
listening on headphones. The one mic overhead works well in live situations
and eliminates the need to be concerned about having two mics, but I don't
like it for studio work. Also simple drum placement in the room makes a
difference. Just as placement of a mic could be significantly different by
moving it inches, drums may react with the room in a different place, or
simply moved a couple of inches themselves.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Is our children learning?"
President George W. Bush
"Matrixmusic" wrote in message
ups.com...

No matter which I use I seem to get
way too much drums in my overheads.

That IS what drum overheads do, they pick up what you hear above the
whole drum kit, & that means everything, balanced the way the drummer
is playing. Overheads are not supposed nor expected to be just cymbals.
In jazz, where the balance within the kit is determined by the drummer,
overheads are all you need. Of course overheads don't have to be over
the top of the kit. They can be out front or anywhere between aiming
straight forward through aiming straight down.

Scott Fraser