Hi,

I haven't a huge amount of recording knowledge, but I run Logic on a PC at
home and am getting a lot more serious about getting the best quality I can,
even though it's just a hobby.

Anyway I have a track using a prominent pad from a Yamaha FM7 plug in. It
is unusually very analogue and very stereo, meaning different voices are
panned hard and cover the entire soundfield in a really nice stereo paddy
way. (It uses the stereo effects on the FM7). I have neighbours
downstairs who have complained about me walking across my floor too loudly
(really) so I record on Beyer DT707 headphones which sound pretty good,
especially the bass. However, the difference in percieved loudness of this
very stereo pad between headphones and speakers is huge - you can hardly
hear it through the speakers and I assume this is because some of the stereo
imagery is lost. I don't really know how best to mix it. I guess the
solution is to make the stereo image not as wide, but I was just wondering
if this is a common problem and there are better ways to solve it. I've
shelved bass off the pad so it doesn't interfere with the kick or bassline,
and some top too, and through headphones it sounds nicely balanced with and
isn't at all fighting with everything else, and the overall effect is
lovely, something I don't want to lose.



Thanks,


Gareth.

the difference in percieved loudness of this
very stereo pad between headphones and speakers is huge - you can
hardly
hear it through the speakers and I assume this is because some of the
stereo
imagery is lost.

Sounds like you've been bitten by a sample with a lot of out of phase
information. Play the pad on your speakers switching between stereo &
mono. It's harder to hear phase problems on headphones.

I don't really know how best to mix it. I guess the
solution is to make the stereo image not as wide, but I was just
wondering
if this is a common problem and there are better ways to solve it.

A lack of awareness of the critical importance of mono compatibility
has beset the recording industry ever since the introduction of CDs
made it physically possible to play back out of phase material. Phase
coherency & mono compatibility are just aspects of basic recording
knowledge, but I hear tons of horribly out of phase recordings
nowadays.

I've
shelved bass off the pad so it doesn't interfere with the kick or
bassline,
and some top too, and through headphones it sounds nicely balanced
with and
isn't at all fighting with everything else, and the overall effect is
lovely, something I don't want to lose.

Sounds like you're going to need to partially sum it to mono & readjust
the level to get back what is cancelled. You could try slipping one
channel back in time by a few milleseconds to see if the cancellations
are at a more accommodating set of frequencies.

Scott Fraser

"Scott Fraser" wrote in message
ups.com...
the difference in percieved loudness of this
very stereo pad between headphones and speakers is huge - you can
hardly
hear it through the speakers and I assume this is because some of the
stereo
imagery is lost.

Sounds like you've been bitten by a sample with a lot of out of phase
information. Play the pad on your speakers switching between stereo &
mono. It's harder to hear phase problems on headphones.

I don't really know how best to mix it. I guess the
solution is to make the stereo image not as wide, but I was just
wondering
if this is a common problem and there are better ways to solve it.

A lack of awareness of the critical importance of mono compatibility
has beset the recording industry ever since the introduction of CDs
made it physically possible to play back out of phase material. Phase
coherency & mono compatibility are just aspects of basic recording
knowledge, but I hear tons of horribly out of phase recordings
nowadays.

I've
shelved bass off the pad so it doesn't interfere with the kick or
bassline,
and some top too, and through headphones it sounds nicely balanced
with and
isn't at all fighting with everything else, and the overall effect is
lovely, something I don't want to lose.

Sounds like you're going to need to partially sum it to mono & readjust
the level to get back what is cancelled. You could try slipping one
channel back in time by a few milleseconds to see if the cancellations
are at a more accommodating set of frequencies.


Interesting idea, thanks.


Gareth.


Scott Fraser

"Gareth Magennis" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I haven't a huge amount of recording knowledge, but I run Logic on a PC at
home and am getting a lot more serious about getting the best quality I
can, even though it's just a hobby.

Anyway I have a track using a prominent pad from a Yamaha FM7 plug in. It
is unusually very analogue and very stereo, meaning different voices are
panned hard and cover the entire soundfield in a really nice stereo paddy
way. (It uses the stereo effects on the FM7). I have neighbours
downstairs who have complained about me walking across my floor too loudly
(really) so I record on Beyer DT707 headphones which sound pretty good,
especially the bass. However, the difference in percieved loudness of
this very stereo pad between headphones and speakers is huge - you can
hardly hear it through the speakers and I assume this is because some of
the stereo imagery is lost. I don't really know how best to mix it. I
guess the solution is to make the stereo image not as wide, but I was
just wondering if this is a common problem and there are better ways to
solve it. I've shelved bass off the pad so it doesn't interfere with the
kick or bassline, and some top too, and through headphones it sounds
nicely balanced with and isn't at all fighting with everything else, and
the overall effect is lovely, something I don't want to lose.



Thanks,


Gareth.

Sounds like you've already done a lot to get it to fit in. Assuming you're
running the pad and other signals thru a stereo mixer, just pan the 2 mixer
channels more toward center, as opposed to hard panned. Or if you want the
pad to one side, hard-pan one channel to that side and pan the other channel
near center. Adjust to taste.

Mikey
Nova Music Productions

Scott Fraser wrote:

A lack of awareness of the critical importance of mono compatibility
has beset the recording industry ever since the introduction of CDs
made it physically possible to play back out of phase material. Phase
coherency & mono compatibility are just aspects of basic recording
knowledge, but I hear tons of horribly out of phase recordings
nowadays.



While I completely agree that A) knowledge of phase coherency is a
fundamental tenet of audio engineering, and B) there are a lot of
conspicuously out-of-phase sounding recordings being made these days, I
disagree with the implicit editorializing in your post which suggests
that lack of A is what has resulted in B. Some of us just like the
sound of out-of-phase material, and had been patiently biding our time
until CDs came along (and mono car or clock radios went away) so that
we could endulge!



Now, whether one can tell just by listening whether the
out-of-phaseness is the result of aesthetic choice or poor remedial
engineering skills is another issue altogether...

"Buster Mudd" wrote in message
ups.com...
Scott Fraser wrote:

A lack of awareness of the critical importance of mono compatibility
has beset the recording industry ever since the introduction of CDs
made it physically possible to play back out of phase material. Phase
coherency & mono compatibility are just aspects of basic recording
knowledge, but I hear tons of horribly out of phase recordings
nowadays.



While I completely agree that A) knowledge of phase coherency is a
fundamental tenet of audio engineering, and B) there are a lot of
conspicuously out-of-phase sounding recordings being made these days, I
disagree with the implicit editorializing in your post which suggests
that lack of A is what has resulted in B. Some of us just like the
sound of out-of-phase material, and had been patiently biding our time
until CDs came along (and mono car or clock radios went away) so that
we could endulge!



Now, whether one can tell just by listening whether the
out-of-phaseness is the result of aesthetic choice or poor remedial
engineering skills is another issue altogether...




I had a quick listen again last night and I'm convinced the pad is indeed
very phasey, thanks for the posts. . Like you, I really like the effect in
this case, but if this only works on headphones, then that strikes me as
rather a bad idea. Now I realise how important phase coherency is.


Cheers,


Gareth.

Some of us just like the
sound of out-of-phase material, and had been patiently biding our time
until CDs came along (and mono car or clock radios went away) so that
we could endulge!

Ah yes, of course, a whole renaissance of new taste which was simply
waiting for the coming technological breakthrough to bring out of phase
recording to the hungry masses.

Now, whether one can tell just by listening whether the
out-of-phaseness is the result of aesthetic choice or poor remedial
engineering skills is another issue altogether...

The only plausible explanation is that we are in the midst of a great
artistic rebirth wherein visionary & savvy producers are hiding tracks
intended to be revealed only to those wearing headphones. These brave
geniuses are not content to be held back by the mundane laws of
physics.

Scott Fraser