Is it possible to make a live audio recording with an RTA mic, and if so
would it be a suitable mic or would it sound bad?

I ask because the venue I work has a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro graph with a
Behringer ECM8000 mic placed in the room. I have been recording some gigs
straight out of the board and I'd like to try to record the room. The room
doesn't lend itself to placing a mic in the crowd unless someone is going to
"stand guard" at the mic, and I was wondering if the room mic for the RTA
would work since it's already run to the FOH booth.

If this will work I wanted to try running the room mic into one channel and
the tape out of the FOH board into the other channel of my Tascam DA-P1 DAT
recorder. Then I could use either or both tracks or a blend of the two to
make a simple live (mono) recording and the room channel should fill in
where the board tape lacks.

Grouchy Soundguy wrote:
Is it possible to make a live audio recording with an RTA mic, and if so
would it be a suitable mic or would it sound bad?

Recording with measurement mics is not uncommon. The most important
characteristic of a measurement mic is accuracy. The Earthworks TC30 is
used both for recording, and even reenforcement. I have used it on
orchestral bass drum and hand percussion. In your case, where you are
using it for room tone, it will be excellent. The Behringer will not
have as flat a response, or as extended high end, as the TC30, but it
will still be fine.

Mac

"Grouchy Soundguy" wrote in message
. com...
Is it possible to make a live audio recording with an RTA mic, and if so
would it be a suitable mic or would it sound bad?

I ask because the venue I work has a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro graph with
a
Behringer ECM8000 mic placed in the room. I have been recording some gigs
straight out of the board and I'd like to try to record the room. The
room
doesn't lend itself to placing a mic in the crowd unless someone is going
to
"stand guard" at the mic, and I was wondering if the room mic for the RTA
would work since it's already run to the FOH booth.

If this will work I wanted to try running the room mic into one channel
and
the tape out of the FOH board into the other channel of my Tascam DA-P1
DAT
recorder. Then I could use either or both tracks or a blend of the two to
make a simple live (mono) recording and the room channel should fill in
where the board tape lacks.



Grouchy, sure it will "work" but you may wish to consider that the rear
mic's audio will be delayed by the distance to the stage mics...about 44 mS
per 50 ft if i recall correctly when you mix down the 2 tracks you get a
kind of flange effect.

the other problem is having the crowd between the mic and the performers is
at the end of each performance when the applause / cheers happens as the
audience is closer to the recording mic the levels are consequently huge...
i find they need to be edited down by about 10 dB. if its solo or acoustic
acts... the crowd noise, coughing, foot shuffling becomes obnoxious.

i haven't, and probably wouldn't try this with an omni mainly because i fail
to see the merit in picking up reflections from the rear wall. i would use a
shotgun if i was packin one. lately i have used a pair of nt-5 for this.

i also find that adding a comp/limiter in front of the recording device is a
big advantage. it keeps the signal levels under control which prevents
clipping and shortens the time spent on editing. i use a dbx quantum or an
Aphex compeller & dominator or dbx DDP

~Tim

"TimPerry" wrote in message

Grouchy, sure it will "work" but you may wish to consider that the rear
mic's audio will be delayed by the distance to the stage mics...about 44
mS
per 50 ft if i recall correctly when you mix down the 2 tracks you get
a
kind of flange effect.

Hadn't thought of that. Keeping in mind that the tape would be for my
amusement only, and probably just burned onto my computer and made into an
MP3, do you think I could just delay the board channel 44ms when I mix it
down on Sound Forge? I may play with this a little.



the other problem is having the crowd between the mic and the performers
is
at the end of each performance when the applause / cheers happens as the
audience is closer to the recording mic the levels are consequently
huge...
i find they need to be edited down by about 10 dB. if its solo or
acoustic
acts... the crowd noise, coughing, foot shuffling becomes obnoxious.

I hung the RTA mic from the ceiling so it's about 10 feet high and centered
in the stage about 30' feet back from the front edge of the stage. It
shouldn't be too bad picking up crowd noise, and I'll cut each song out
separate in editing so I can edit out the inbetween stuff.



i haven't, and probably wouldn't try this with an omni mainly because i
fail
to see the merit in picking up reflections from the rear wall. i would use
a
shotgun if i was packin one. lately i have used a pair of nt-5 for this.

i also find that adding a comp/limiter in front of the recording device is
a
big advantage. it keeps the signal levels under control which prevents
clipping and shortens the time spent on editing. i use a dbx quantum or an
Aphex compeller & dominator or dbx DDP

Don't have anything outboard at the venue that I can use, but the DAT has a
built in limiter. I tried the DAT last weekend and recorded a show strictly
from the board. It sounded decent, although the usually issues with board
tape is present (unbalanced levels between instruments). I only had 1 track
with some clipping, and I was able to go into that track and look for the
square waves and carefully redraw the top or bottom of the wave to "fix" the
clips. It came out sounding like the clipping was never there. Remember,
this is only for making some MP3's for my own use, not album quality stuff.

"Grouchy Soundguy"
wrote in message
. com

Is it possible to make a live audio recording with an RTA
mic, and if so would it be a suitable mic or would it
sound bad?

I do that every Sunday. I have two ECM 8000s placed about 8 feet above the
floor, centered in the midst of the left and right banks of pews, about 1/3
of the way back in the room.

In this picture

http://www.pcavtech.com/ura/IMG_0512-bright.jpg

They show up as barely distinguishable bulges about 1/3 up the crappy
lighting poles.

I ask because the venue I work has a Behringer Ultra
Curve Pro graph with a Behringer ECM8000 mic placed in
the room. I have been recording some gigs straight out
of the board and I'd like to try to record the room. The
room doesn't lend itself to placing a mic in the crowd
unless someone is going to "stand guard" at the mic,

Height works, both from the standpoint of keeping prying fingers off the
mics, and putting the mics where they will sound best. Plan "B" would be to
drop the mics from the ceiling on some really thin mic cable.

and I was wondering if the room mic for the RTA would work
since it's already run to the FOH booth.

It will make sound, but I don't know if will make the sound you want. Note
that the ECM8000s in the pix are also what I use for tuning the eq on the
output amp stack.

If this will work I wanted to try running the room mic
into one channel and the tape out of the FOH board into
the other channel of my Tascam DA-P1 DAT recorder.

The two mics on the poles in the pix are two of up to 28 tracks that I
record each Sunday. They always figure heavily in the mix because they
provide a good reverberent balance to the often-hot-and-dry sounds coming
off the vocal mics. They also give the best sonic picture of the pipe organ.

Then I could use either or both tracks or a blend of the two
to make a simple live (mono) recording and the room
channel should fill in where the board tape lacks.

For extra fun, we sometimes fold these mics back into the house mix during
congregational singing. Especally helpful on those Sundays when attendance
is a bit down.

Now for the bad news about ECM 8000s. They tend to be noisy. Within limits
they can be a good or better recording mic. But if they get to be too much
of the mix, there will be audible hissing. Part of the problem is that they
use really tiny capsules, about 1/4". The other problem is obvious when you
buy them - they are really really cheap. The noise is generally less of an
issue for measurements and use as overheads on a drum kit.

"Grouchy Soundguy" wrote in message
. net...

"TimPerry" wrote in message

Grouchy, sure it will "work" but you may wish to consider that the rear
mic's audio will be delayed by the distance to the stage mics...about 44
mS
per 50 ft if i recall correctly when you mix down the 2 tracks you get
a
kind of flange effect.

Hadn't thought of that. Keeping in mind that the tape would be for my
amusement only, and probably just burned onto my computer and made into an
MP3, do you think I could just delay the board channel 44ms when I mix it
down on Sound Forge? I may play with this a little.


yes this could work. or delay it before it records. does the ulracurve get
used (it should but i currently have one in my rack not doing anything).
Theres a delay function on this.

Rob

Grouchy Soundguy wrote:

I ask because the venue I work has a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro graph with a
Behringer ECM8000 mic placed in the room. I have been recording some gigs
straight out of the board and I'd like to try to record the room. The room
doesn't lend itself to placing a mic in the crowd unless someone is going to
"stand guard" at the mic, and I was wondering if the room mic for the RTA
would work since it's already run to the FOH booth.

It's very flat and very clean off-axis, but it's very noisy. If the noise
isn't an issue, go for it.

Do realize that you're probably going to get more room ambience than crowd
sound. This may or may not be what you want.

If this will work I wanted to try running the room mic into one channel and
the tape out of the FOH board into the other channel of my Tascam DA-P1 DAT
recorder. Then I could use either or both tracks or a blend of the two to
make a simple live (mono) recording and the room channel should fill in
where the board tape lacks.

This is a pretty good way of doing things. You may find that if you
are using an omni, though, you will want it closer in. Like on the edge
of the stage, even.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Rob Beech wrote:

yes this could work. or delay it before it records. does the ulracurve get
used (it should but i currently have one in my rack not doing anything).
Theres a delay function on this.

The traditional way to do this was to use sel-sync on the playback tape
deck. But to be honest, if it's mostly room sound, you'll be surprised
how well you can get away without having any delay at all.

On the other hand, you'll also find you're getting a _lot_ of room sound
in the ambient speaker, and you're still not getting a good sound on
the things that don't go through the PA, like the drum kit. The solution
of this is easier to move the ambient mike closer to the stage or use a
more directional one.

A mixture of the PA feed and a 635A on the stage skirt can do surprisingly
well, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Rob Beech" wrote in message

Grouchy, sure it will "work" but you may wish to
consider that the rear
mic's audio will be delayed by the distance to the
stage mics...about 44
mS per 50 ft if i recall correctly when you mix down
the 2 tracks you
get a kind of flange effect.

Hadn't thought of that. Keeping in mind that the tape
would be for my
amusement only, and probably just burned onto my
computer and made into an
MP3, do you think I could just delay the board channel
44ms when I mix it
down on Sound Forge? I may play with this a little.

yes this could work. or delay it before it records. does
the ulracurve get
used (it should but i currently have one in my rack not
doing anything).
Theres a delay function on this.

No, the Ultra Curve just showed up in the booth one day
(another one of those things the sound company keeps selling
the venue that I can't figure out what to do with) and it's
sitting in the rack but not hooked up to anything but the
room mic. Basically it's a dancing lights show when the
band is playing.

The sound company told the venue owner that the room mic
would allow them to pinpoint feedback and they could locate
the feedback freq by looking at the display and then correct
the feedback. Unfortunately, the feedback was coming from
the monitors, not the mains, and the room mic doesn't help
with that. And I fixed the feedback problems by cutting
some lows out of the vocal channels on the board and using
the high pass filter (they were running it pretty flat with
no filter). So the Ultra Curve really is pretty much
useless as it sits.

Grouchy Soundguy wrote:
"Rob Beech" wrote in message


Grouchy, sure it will "work" but you may wish to

consider that the rear

mic's audio will be delayed by the distance to the

stage mics...about 44

mS per 50 ft if i recall correctly when you mix down

the 2 tracks you

get a kind of flange effect.

Hadn't thought of that. Keeping in mind that the tape

would be for my

amusement only, and probably just burned onto my

computer and made into an

MP3, do you think I could just delay the board channel

44ms when I mix it

down on Sound Forge? I may play with this a little.


yes this could work. or delay it before it records. does

the ulracurve get

used (it should but i currently have one in my rack not

doing anything).

Theres a delay function on this.


No, the Ultra Curve just showed up in the booth one day
(another one of those things the sound company keeps selling
the venue that I can't figure out what to do with) and it's
sitting in the rack but not hooked up to anything but the
room mic. Basically it's a dancing lights show when the
band is playing.

The sound company told the venue owner that the room mic
would allow them to pinpoint feedback and they could locate
the feedback freq by looking at the display and then correct
the feedback. Unfortunately, the feedback was coming from
the monitors, not the mains, and the room mic doesn't help
with that. And I fixed the feedback problems by cutting
some lows out of the vocal channels on the board and using
the high pass filter (they were running it pretty flat with
no filter). So the Ultra Curve really is pretty much
useless as it sits.



Well you could turn up FOH a bit and then the feedback frequency will
also come through FOH. Whether this will have a negative effect while
ringing out the monitors I'm not sure. I do *not* do this myself, it's
just an idea, maybe a bad one.

I tend to have my DEQ in the monitor chain *and* use the RTA mic. For
ringing out monitors, I put the DEQ in RTA mode and tell it to monitor
its L/R input (being fed from the monitor sends on the desk) so when
feedback starts I can see the offending frequency (Obviously this will
only work for 2 monitor sends with one DEQ).

Then if for whatever reason I'm having FOH feedback problems or trying
to sort out response problems, I can just switch the RTA on the DEQ to
use the RTA mic input instead.

Of course if the mics causing feedback at FOH are also going through the
monitor chain, you can leave the DEQ monitoring the L/R input as before
and see the feedback frequency anyway because it'll be coming through
the monitors too.

Hope that makes sense.

FOR ME, this is what allows me to work best at the moment, but *please
note* I am a novice so take all this with a pinch of salt. Constructive
criticism welcome.

Cheers,

Mark.
--

"Grouchy Soundguy" skrev i en
meddelelse . com...
Is it possible to make a live audio recording with an RTA mic, and if so
would it be a suitable mic or would it sound bad?

Some of the most respected small diaphragm condensor mics ( Brüel & Kjaer /
DPA 40xx series )were initially designed for measurement purposes ( hence
the extreme SPL limits on some of them ). The recording industry adopted
them as reference mics.. Ofcourse these are in a very different pricerange
compared to the Behringer :-)

I ask because the venue I work has a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro graph with
a
Behringer ECM8000 mic placed in the room. I have been recording some gigs
straight out of the board and I'd like to try to record the room. The
room
doesn't lend itself to placing a mic in the crowd unless someone is going
to
"stand guard" at the mic, and I was wondering if the room mic for the RTA
would work since it's already run to the FOH booth.

It could work

If this will work I wanted to try running the room mic into one channel
and
the tape out of the FOH board into the other channel of my Tascam DA-P1
DAT
recorder. Then I could use either or both tracks or a blend of the two to
make a simple live (mono) recording and the room channel should fill in
where the board tape lacks.

With the proper delay on the board channel ( you need to align both
channels ) it should be great... You should be able to time-align the 2
tracks using Steinberg Wavelab or similar

Depending on available mics, type of music played etc. you might also want
to try recording using 2 mics..

No matter what solution you choose you will find that you need a good
editing package..

/peter

In article , Q wrote:

Some of the most respected small diaphragm condensor mics ( Brüel & Kjaer /
DPA 40xx series )were initially designed for measurement purposes ( hence
the extreme SPL limits on some of them ). The recording industry adopted
them as reference mics.. Ofcourse these are in a very different pricerange
compared to the Behringer :-)

Actually, the DPA 40xx microphones were B&Ks response to people using their
nickel-diaphragm measurement microphones for recording work. They decided
to make an inexpensive line of lower-grade microphones for the recording
market. In the process, they made the electronics much quieter, but
used a capsule design that is very different (and much easier and cheaper
to make) than their IEC Type I measurement capsules (which are basically
all derived from the old Western Electric 640AA capsule).

If you want to use traditional Type I capsules for recording, you can
buy phantom-powered electronics packages that will power them, from both
ACO Pacific and Josephson Engineering. I have not used the ACO one, but
the Josephson one has a DC-DC converter to provide a full 200V polarization
on the capsule, and sounds pretty good. And you don't have to lug around
the B&K 2801 power supply boxes either.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The sound company told the venue owner that the room mic
would allow them to pinpoint feedback and they could locate
the feedback freq by looking at the display and then correct
the feedback. Unfortunately, the feedback was coming from
the monitors, not the mains, and the room mic doesn't help
with that. And I fixed the feedback problems by cutting
some lows out of the vocal channels on the board and using
the high pass filter (they were running it pretty flat with
no filter). So the Ultra Curve really is pretty much
useless as it sits.



I would shut the mains off and turn up the monitor system masters till a
feedback ring just starts and cut it with the eq.
When you have about 3 feed back freq pulled out shut off the monitor system
and turn on the mains. Push the main master till again just till you start
to hear a feedback ring and notch it out. You don't want to keep pushing
after taking 2 or 3 freq's out because sooner or later all freq will ring.
Of course do this with the room empty and with as little people in the room.
You don't have to have the feed back screeming just enough to just start to
hear it.

Does the Ultra Curve have a system that shows Feedback? I have never used
one before.

Kindest Regards
Doug

Douglas R. Allen wrote:
The sound company told the venue owner that the room mic
would allow them to pinpoint feedback and they could locate
the feedback freq by looking at the display and then correct
the feedback. Unfortunately, the feedback was coming from
the monitors, not the mains, and the room mic doesn't help
with that. And I fixed the feedback problems by cutting
some lows out of the vocal channels on the board and using
the high pass filter (they were running it pretty flat with
no filter). So the Ultra Curve really is pretty much
useless as it sits.




I would shut the mains off and turn up the monitor system masters till a
feedback ring just starts and cut it with the eq.
When you have about 3 feed back freq pulled out shut off the monitor system
and turn on the mains. Push the main master till again just till you start
to hear a feedback ring and notch it out.

IMHO; I tend to find you don't need to completely notch out the
offending frequency, usually just a few db's seems to do it, and tends
to sound better because more of the original signal is left intact.

Cheers,

Mark.
--

You don't want to keep pushing
after taking 2 or 3 freq's out because sooner or later all freq will ring.
Of course do this with the room empty and with as little people in the room.
You don't have to have the feed back screeming just enough to just start to
hear it.

Does the Ultra Curve have a system that shows Feedback? I have never used
one before.

Kindest Regards
Doug