Of those transformerless three-radio-tube 1960s budget junker guitar
amps,
which one has the best-sounding circuit? Best-sounding overall?

They're all about the same, and at any rate it's academic unless you
are looking to get electrocuted.

Bret Ludwig wrote:
They're all about the same, and at any rate it's academic unless you
are looking to get electrocuted.

They can be made safe with an isolation transformer, no? Or at least as
safe as any other guitar amp.

wrote:
Bret Ludwig wrote:
They're all about the same, and at any rate it's academic unless you
are looking to get electrocuted.

They can be made safe with an isolation transformer, no? Or at least as
safe as any other guitar amp.

Yes but what would be the point? Using conventional transformer
topology with normal heater buses would be superior even if the AA5-2
circuit were desireable. it isn't.

Bret Ludwig wrote:
wrote:
Bret Ludwig wrote:
They're all about the same, and at any rate it's academic unless you
are looking to get electrocuted.

They can be made safe with an isolation transformer, no? Or at least as
safe as any other guitar amp.

Yes but what would be the point? Using conventional transformer
topology with normal heater buses would be superior even if the AA5-2
circuit were desireable. it isn't.

Assume the OP is on a budget. You can pick up an old junker practice
amp for less than $50, put another $25 into a transformer, fuse, 3-wire
cord, and some cheap filter caps, and get a decent 1950s bluesy-tubey
distortion tone for less than the price of a tube pedal.

Here's a question--given the tube line-up in the AA5 circuits, is a
regular transformer topology really going to give a guitarist a better
tone? It might reduce the hum, sure, but what else is it going to
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

wrote:
Bret Ludwig wrote:
wrote:
Bret Ludwig wrote:
They're all about the same, and at any rate it's academic unless you
are looking to get electrocuted.

They can be made safe with an isolation transformer, no? Or at least as
safe as any other guitar amp.

Yes but what would be the point? Using conventional transformer
topology with normal heater buses would be superior even if the AA5-2
circuit were desireable. it isn't.

Assume the OP is on a budget. You can pick up an old junker practice
amp for less than $50, put another $25 into a transformer, fuse, 3-wire
cord, and some cheap filter caps, and get a decent 1950s bluesy-tubey
distortion tone for less than the price of a tube pedal.

Here's a question--given the tube line-up in the AA5 circuits, is a
regular transformer topology really going to give a guitarist a better
tone? It might reduce the hum, sure, but what else is it going to
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

A B+ and heater winding PT costs about the same as a isoformer-free if
an old console is parted out- and the 6.3V heater tubes will last
longer in the same exact circuit. The oddball 35Z5 rectifier will be
unneded, saving several dollars. The 50L6 can be replaced very
satisfactorily by any of several tetrodes available free as a pull from
a push-pull set where one has died. Partng out a HH Scott, Bell,
Lafayette or similar POS stereo amp will yield a good power and output
transformer, sockets, and what not.

In article .com,
writes:
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

--
Chris Richmond | I don't speak for Intel & vise versa

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:

In article .com,
writes:
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.


--
Pat

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12,
Pat Farrell writes:
Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.

I are a guitarist, and my comment was supposed to be a joke,
as is in "from my perspective, distortion *is* hifi."

Too subtle I guess.

Chris
--
Chris Richmond | I don't speak for Intel & vise versa

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:
Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:

In article .com,
writes:
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.
Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.

greg

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:
Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:

In article .com,
writes:
accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.
Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.

I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson Electronics, or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at max volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the guitar amps.

greg

Bret Ludwig wrote:

A B+ and heater winding PT costs about the same as a isoformer

The 1:1 iso is only about $12 at Mouser.

-free if
an old console is parted out- and the 6.3V heater tubes will last
longer in the same exact circuit. The oddball 35Z5 rectifier will be
unneded, saving several dollars.

Some people think the rectifier tube is part of the "tube sound" in
guitar amps, due to the "sag." I'm not sure I understand this.

At any rate, if you installed a PT and converted one of these old radio
tube guitar amps into say a Champ circuit, I'm not sure what you'd gain
from that except perhaps a few more watts in power and more expensive
tubes to buy. Whereas if you keep it stock and just add an iso for
safety, you get more or less the same type of tone for less money.

GregS wrote:

In article , (GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article .com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson Electronics, or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at max volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100 Hz and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on a distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for a bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or not, unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

Andy

Andy Cowley wrote:

GregS wrote:

In article , (GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article .com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson Electronics, or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at max volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100 Hz and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on a distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for a bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or not, unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

Andy

Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there are speakers for
guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.

Graham

In article , Pooh Bear wrote:


Andy Cowley wrote:

GregS wrote:

In article ,
(GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article .com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier
distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson Electronics,
or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a
typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at max
volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the
guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100 Hz
and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on a
distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for a
bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or not,
unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

It certainly is. The sound, is what you want it to sound like. The player
can do anything he desires. If you like the unretouched sound, then a
HiFi amp will do nicely. The electric guitar started out in the beginning with a
simple amplifier.

Andy

Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there are
speakers for
guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.

Graham

Unfortunately, many don't understand speaker physics. Its really neat when the player
also knows electronics and speakers, and knows how to get what he wants, and
knows how to optimize the sound. There was at least one famous guitar
player like that.

There are typical drivers with smaller voice coils and Alnico magnets which
emphasize higher harmonics. There are metal domes ( you don't see these much anymore)
present which also emphasize high freqs and higher harmonics. They also ring.
Most bass players play through inadiquate speakers. Of course, the whole deal, like
speaker box type, and its position and use in a specified room, all control
sound.

greg


greg

"GregS" wrote in message
...
: In article , Pooh Bear
wrote:
:
:
: Andy Cowley wrote:
:
: GregS wrote:
:
: In article ,
: (GregS) wrote:
:
: In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:
:
: Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:
:
:
: In article .com,
: writes:
:
: accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
: not hifi.
:
: Errr???? I don't follow...
:
: Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
: That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
: Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
: have distortion.
: Especially for blues or jazz.
:
: HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.
:
: From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.
:
: Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
: Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier
: distortion,
: but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
: volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
: are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
: compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
: is distorted, its makes little sense.
:
:
: I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson
Electronics,
: or
: maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
: amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back
in
: high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a
: typical
: guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at
max
: volume.
: Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the
: guitar amps.
:
: greg
: 8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100 Hz
: and 8kHz.
: Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on a
: distortion
: analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for a
: bluesy
: sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or not,
: unless
: it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.
:
: Just my tuppence worth.
:
: It certainly is. The sound, is what you want it to sound like. The player
: can do anything he desires. If you like the unretouched sound, then a
: HiFi amp will do nicely. The electric guitar started out in the beginning with
a
: simple amplifier.
:
: Andy
:
: Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there are
: speakers for
: guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.
:
: Graham
.................................................. ...........
why is it, mr. Bear, that just about every posting of yours has to have that
moral connotation, that good-or-bad stance ? troubles in the shack ?
:-)
Rudy
****ty behaviour watchdog
.................................................. ..........
:
: Unfortunately, many don't understand speaker physics. Its really neat when the
player
: also knows electronics and speakers, and knows how to get what he wants, and
: knows how to optimize the sound. There was at least one famous guitar
: player like that.
:
: There are typical drivers with smaller voice coils and Alnico magnets which
: emphasize higher harmonics. There are metal domes ( you don't see these much
anymore)
: present which also emphasize high freqs and higher harmonics. They also ring.
: Most bass players play through inadiquate speakers. Of course, the whole deal,
like
: speaker box type, and its position and use in a specified room, all control
: sound.
:
: greg

GregS wrote:

In article , Pooh Bear wrote:


Andy Cowley wrote:

GregS wrote:

In article ,
(GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12, wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article .com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier
distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson Electronics,
or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like a
typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at max
volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the
guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100 Hz
and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on a
distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for a
bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or not,
unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

It certainly is. The sound, is what you want it to sound like. The player
can do anything he desires. If you like the unretouched sound, then a
HiFi amp will do nicely. The electric guitar started out in the beginning with a
simple amplifier.

And a 'simple' tube amp wil provide several percents worth of distortion.

Use a ss amp for guitar and it simply sounds too clinically 'clean', although this effect is quite
effective for jazz bass though as it more closely resembles the sound of an upright.

A tube guitarr amp will however provide a few tenths of a percent distortion at low levels gradually
increasing through the whole number percentages as the power increases and also clips relatively softly
which gives it a compression effect at high power. This is considered the most desirable sound for
electric guitar by most.


Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there are
speakers for
guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.

Graham

Unfortunately, many don't understand speaker physics. Its really neat when the player
also knows electronics and speakers, and knows how to get what he wants, and
knows how to optimize the sound. There was at least one famous guitar
player like that.

There are typical drivers with smaller voice coils and Alnico magnets which
emphasize higher harmonics. There are metal domes ( you don't see these much anymore)
present which also emphasize high freqs and higher harmonics. They also ring.
Most bass players play through inadiquate speakers. Of course, the whole deal, like
speaker box type, and its position and use in a specified room, all control
sound.

I was actually thinking more about cone break-up for example. A nice thin cone will be both loud because
of its low mass and will break up easily giving extra colouration. Alnico's simply too exensive to use
these days.

Guitar speakers also typically use a paper surround rather than linen or synthetic, again for the same
kind of reasons.

Graham

Ruud Broens wrote:

"GregS" wrote in message
...
: In article , Pooh Bear
wrote:
:

: Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there are
: speakers for
: guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.
:
: Graham
.................................................. ..........
why is it, mr. Bear, that just about every posting of yours has to have that
moral connotation, that good-or-bad stance ? troubles in the shack ?

There's nothing good or bad about it.

Guitarists like to add coluration to their sound. Some also like 'fuzz boxes' that
produce extreme distortion too.

They simply put the known technical deficiencies of old types of designs to artistic
use.

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
:
:
: Ruud Broens wrote:
:
: "GregS" wrote in message
: ...
: : In article , Pooh Bear
: wrote:
: :
:
: : Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there
are
: : speakers for
: : guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that
sound'.
: :
: : Graham
: .................................................. ..........
: why is it, mr. Bear, that just about every posting of yours has to have that
: moral connotation, that good-or-bad stance ? troubles in the shack ?
:
: There's nothing good or bad about it.
:
: Guitarists like to add coluration to their sound. Some also like 'fuzz boxes'
that
: produce extreme distortion too.
:
: They simply put the known technical deficiencies of old types of designs to
artistic
: use.
:
: Graham
:
....you still cannot avoid to phrase it like " known technical deficiencies " ;-),
i see, o well,
whatever mantra get's you through the week, G. :-)

Rudy

Ruud Broens wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
:
:
: Ruud Broens wrote:
:
: "GregS" wrote in message
: ...
: : In article , Pooh Bear
: wrote:
: :
:
: : Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there
are
: : speakers for
: : guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that
sound'.
: :
: : Graham
: .................................................. ..........
: why is it, mr. Bear, that just about every posting of yours has to have that
: moral connotation, that good-or-bad stance ? troubles in the shack ?
:
: There's nothing good or bad about it.
:
: Guitarists like to add coluration to their sound. Some also like 'fuzz boxes'
that
: produce extreme distortion too.
:
: They simply put the known technical deficiencies of old types of designs to
artistic
: use.
:
: Graham
:
...you still cannot avoid to phrase it like " known technical deficiencies " ;-),
i see, o well,
whatever mantra get's you through the week, G. :-)

Are you suggesting that a speaker that breaks up is a good thing for audio fidelity
for example ? It is *clearly* a technical deficiency.

Likewise for THD in the several percent region.

Graham

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:06:17 +0000
Pooh Bear wrote:



GregS wrote:

In article , Pooh Bear
wrote:


Andy Cowley wrote:

GregS wrote:

In article ,

(GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12,
wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article
oups.com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want
distortion, not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little
distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need
amplifier
distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed
at low volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the
Hendrix sounds are much more harmonically balanced and little
distortion compared to much of what you hear today. The whole
darn mix is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson
Electronics,
or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below.
This was back in high school, in the mid 60's. No special
guitar circuitry. Sounded like a
typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been
distorting it at max
volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals
through the
guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points
likely 100 Hz
and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or
Marshall on a
distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the
tone up for a
bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp,
tube or not,
unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the
instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

It certainly is. The sound, is what you want it to sound like. The
player can do anything he desires. If you like the unretouched
sound, then a HiFi amp will do nicely. The electric guitar started
out in the beginning with a simple amplifier.

And a 'simple' tube amp wil provide several percents worth of
distortion.

Use a ss amp for guitar and it simply sounds too clinically 'clean',
although this effect is quite effective for jazz bass though as it
more closely resembles the sound of an upright.

A tube guitarr amp will however provide a few tenths of a percent
distortion at low levels gradually increasing through the whole
number percentages as the power increases and also clips relatively
softly which gives it a compression effect at high power. This is
considered the most desirable sound for electric guitar by most.


Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too.
Indeed there are
speakers for
guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide
'that sound'.

Graham

Unfortunately, many don't understand speaker physics. Its really
neat when the player also knows electronics and speakers, and knows
how to get what he wants, and knows how to optimize the sound.
There was at least one famous guitar player like that.

There are typical drivers with smaller voice coils and Alnico
magnets which emphasize higher harmonics. There are metal domes
( you don't see these much anymore) present which also emphasize
high freqs and higher harmonics. They also ring. Most bass players
play through inadiquate speakers. Of course, the whole deal, like
speaker box type, and its position and use in a specified room, all
control sound.

I was actually thinking more about cone break-up for example. A nice
thin cone will be both loud because of its low mass and will break up
easily giving extra colouration. Alnico's simply too exensive to use
these days.

Guitar speakers also typically use a paper surround rather than linen
or synthetic, again for the same kind of reasons.

Graham

The most of the guitar amps of the market are just crap. As exemple, the
most expensive marshal amp is costing less as 100$ for the manufacturer,
inclusive the box, the manual and the tape on the package.
They have to make technical choices in order to get a cheap and good
enough result.

But if you want to get an very good or an excellent result, you have to
reconsidere those choices for every single component in the amp, and
even reconsidere the circuit on the amp.
By exemple, why no one amp on the market have a driver transformator
and are using driver circuits they cannot drive the power on the grids
of the output tubes when the amp is at high volume? Look at Ig1=f(Ua)
for a 6L6 in class B, as in a guitar amp. You need between 1 or 2 watt
per grid, it depend of the quality of the 6L6.
They don't use a driver transformer because it cost too much. But it is
the best technical choice for a vacuum tubes guitar amp.

If you buy the best sheets of transformer on the market for a driver
and an output transformer, it will already cost you 80 or 100$.

Fender have a publicity where they said: "We are adjusting the
bandwitch of the amplifier to the bandwitch of the loudspeaker"
What that mean? Only at, as a guitar loudspeaker is just a good medium
loudspeaker, as their amplifiers are just good medium amplifiers!
And the other manufacturers are doing the same. As consequence, every
single guitar player in the world put the medium potentiometer near the
minimum, the bass near the middle, and the high near the maximum.

And is it sure at, with a medium amplifier, a good 2 or 3 way
loudspeakers system will not sound good, because the amp is not able
to drive such a system in the bass and in the high frequency range.

Dominique

In article , Pooh Bear wrote:


GregS wrote:

In article , Pooh Bear
wrote:


Andy Cowley wrote:

GregS wrote:

In article ,
(GregS) wrote:

In article Zsllf.49086$sg5.40080@dukeread12,
wrote:

Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~ wrote:


In article .com,
writes:

accomplish? Assume we're talking about guitarists who want
distortion,
not hifi.

Errr???? I don't follow...

Guitar amps are supposed to have distortion.
That is what makes an electric guitar sound right.
Not counting heavy metal/Hendix, you have to
have distortion.
Especially for blues or jazz.

HiFi and guitar amps have next to nothing in common.

From a purist standpoint, a simple guitar amp has little distortion.

Much of the guitar sound also develps from the speaker itself.
Its very much part of the systems sound. You don't need amplifier
distortion,
but its widely used. I think more distortion is used or needed at low
volumes, or at least thats what I observe. Much of the Hendrix sounds
are much more harmonically balanced and little distortion
compared to much of what you hear today. The whole darn mix
is distorted, its makes little sense.


I remember my friends first guitar amp, a amplifier from Olson
Electronics,
or
maybe somewhere else. Something like a 20-30 watt PP tube HiFi
amplifier, over top either one or two speakers down below. This was back
in
high school, in the mid 60's. No special guitar circuitry. Sounded like
a
typical
guitar back then to me, of course they might have been distorting it at
max
volume.
Of course, used it for vocals also. Everybody played vocals through the
guitar amps.

greg
8-10% THD per pre-amp stage, tiny o/p transformer. 3dB points likely 100
Hz
and 8kHz.
Not really what the audiophools want. Try putting a Fender or Marshall on
a
distortion
analyser. The distortion, not clipping, is what 'thickens' the tone up for
a
bluesy
sound. A good guitar sounds like crap through a real hi-fi amp, tube or
not,
unless
it is grossly overloaded. The amp is an essential part of the instrument.

Just my tuppence worth.

It certainly is. The sound, is what you want it to sound like. The player
can do anything he desires. If you like the unretouched sound, then a
HiFi amp will do nicely. The electric guitar started out in the beginning
with a
simple amplifier.

And a 'simple' tube amp wil provide several percents worth of distortion.

Use a ss amp for guitar and it simply sounds too clinically 'clean', although
this effect is quite
effective for jazz bass though as it more closely resembles the sound of an
upright.

A tube guitarr amp will however provide a few tenths of a percent distortion at
low levels gradually
increasing through the whole number percentages as the power increases and also
clips relatively softly
which gives it a compression effect at high power. This is considered the most
desirable sound for
electric guitar by most.


Guitar amps also use intentional loudspeaker colouration too. Indeed there
are
speakers for
guitar amps that intentionally use known 'defects' to provide 'that sound'.

Graham

Unfortunately, many don't understand speaker physics. Its really neat when
the player
also knows electronics and speakers, and knows how to get what he wants, and
knows how to optimize the sound. There was at least one famous guitar
player like that.

There are typical drivers with smaller voice coils and Alnico magnets which
emphasize higher harmonics. There are metal domes ( you don't see these much
anymore)
present which also emphasize high freqs and higher harmonics. They also ring.
Most bass players play through inadiquate speakers. Of course, the whole
deal, like
speaker box type, and its position and use in a specified room, all control
sound.

I was actually thinking more about cone break-up for example. A nice thin cone
will be both loud because
of its low mass and will break up easily giving extra colouration. Alnico's
simply too exensive to use
these days.


No. You can buy them. They are usually called vintage.
A 1 inch VC can be used, which is uaually very strange
compared to PA drivers. Jensen, Celestion, Eminence,
all make them.

greg

Guitar speakers also typically use a paper surround rather than linen or
synthetic, again for the same
kind of reasons.

Graham