For anyone who thinks that government isn't intrusive enough...



State firefighters rejected air drop request for Cedar Fire because of
night regulations

JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Writer Thursday, October 30, 2003

(10-30) 23:43 PST SAN DIEGO (AP) --

The first helicopter pilot to see the patch of flames that would
become the catastrophic Cedar Fire radioed for aerial water drops, but
state firefighters rejected his request because it came minutes after
such flights had been grounded for the night.

Within hours, the flames cascaded out of control and killed 13
residents between the mountains east of San Diego and the city. It
eventually became the largest wildfire in California history.

Southern California was already besieged by flames Saturday evening
when the San Diego County Sheriff's helicopter went to search for a
lost hunter who allegedly lit a beacon fire.

Pilot Dave Weldon told The Associated Press on Thursday that he saw
state firefighting planes on a nearby airstrip as he approached the
mountains at 110 mph. He called down for help because his dispatcher
had relayed reports of smoke in the area, but he got no response.

That was around 5:45 p.m. A few minutes later, he spotted smoke from
the fire, then only about 50 yards on each side and not spreading.

As he steadied his helicopter against wind gusts, Weldon's concern
mounted. Just before landing, he called for backup, asking another
county helicopter to speed to the scene with its 120-gallon water dump
bucket. And he urged the dispatcher to contact state firefighters and
renew his request for air tankers.

The problem was that under state safety guidelines, no flights can go
up into waning daylight. On Saturday, the cutoff was 5:36 p.m., said
California Department of Forestry Capt. Ron Serabia, who coordinates
the 12 tankers and 10 helicopters now battling the 272,000-acre blaze.

The sun set that day at 6:05 p.m.

The helicopter with the dump bucket flew within five miles of the
fire, before state officials told it to turn back, Weldon said. The
air tankers never took off. Weldon was told crews would attack the
fire in the morning.

"We were basically just offering our assistance fighting their fire,
and they turned it down," said Weldon, who with his partner delivered
the hunter to law enforcement officials who cited him for setting an
unauthorized fire. "I was frustrated about it, but I wasn't
surprised."

Weldon said the county helicopter wouldn't have been allowed to drop
water after dark and said that it alone couldn't have done the job,
but he thought a well-placed drop from the air tanker might have
extinguished the flames.

"pyjamarama" wrote in message


Weldon said the county helicopter wouldn't have been allowed to drop
water after dark and said that it alone couldn't have done the job,
but he thought a well-placed drop from the air tanker might have
extinguished the flames.

It was a judgment call. Dropping water from aircraft on fires in mountains
is a dangerous business, even during full daylight. A water tanker aircraft
pancaking into the side of a hill can make a heck of a fire all by itself,
not to mention the probable adverse affect on the health of the aircraft's
crew.

However, nightfall doesn't mean that everybody has to go to sleep. Claims of
governmental agency malfeasance need to be based on activities both in the
air and also on the ground. OTOH, I've been hiking in the general area, and
simply walking there at night is dangerous because of the topography, fire
or not.

"pyjamarama" wrote in message
...
For anyone who thinks that government isn't intrusive enough...



State firefighters rejected air drop request for Cedar Fire because of
night regulations

JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Writer Thursday, October 30, 2003

(10-30) 23:43 PST SAN DIEGO (AP) --

The first helicopter pilot to see the patch of flames that would
become the catastrophic Cedar Fire radioed for aerial water drops, but
state firefighters rejected his request because it came minutes after
such flights had been grounded for the night.

Within hours, the flames cascaded out of control and killed 13
residents between the mountains east of San Diego and the city. It
eventually became the largest wildfire in California history.

Southern California was already besieged by flames Saturday evening
when the San Diego County Sheriff's helicopter went to search for a
lost hunter who allegedly lit a beacon fire.

Pilot Dave Weldon told The Associated Press on Thursday that he saw
state firefighting planes on a nearby airstrip as he approached the
mountains at 110 mph. He called down for help because his dispatcher
had relayed reports of smoke in the area, but he got no response.

That was around 5:45 p.m. A few minutes later, he spotted smoke from
the fire, then only about 50 yards on each side and not spreading.

As he steadied his helicopter against wind gusts, Weldon's concern
mounted. Just before landing, he called for backup, asking another
county helicopter to speed to the scene with its 120-gallon water dump
bucket. And he urged the dispatcher to contact state firefighters and
renew his request for air tankers.

The problem was that under state safety guidelines, no flights can go
up into waning daylight. On Saturday, the cutoff was 5:36 p.m., said
California Department of Forestry Capt. Ron Serabia, who coordinates
the 12 tankers and 10 helicopters now battling the 272,000-acre blaze.

The sun set that day at 6:05 p.m.

The helicopter with the dump bucket flew within five miles of the
fire, before state officials told it to turn back, Weldon said. The
air tankers never took off. Weldon was told crews would attack the
fire in the morning.

"We were basically just offering our assistance fighting their fire,
and they turned it down," said Weldon, who with his partner delivered
the hunter to law enforcement officials who cited him for setting an
unauthorized fire. "I was frustrated about it, but I wasn't
surprised."

Weldon said the county helicopter wouldn't have been allowed to drop
water after dark and said that it alone couldn't have done the job,
but he thought a well-placed drop from the air tanker might have
extinguished the flames.

Let's not forget the fact that the forests are overgrown because a bunch of
left wing idiots are afraid logging companies might make a few bucks by
doing some constructive clearing of trees. Same symtoms as the Florida fire
a few years ago. In some places in Califiornia you can't even cut down
trees on your own property.

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Let's not forget the fact that the forests are overgrown because a bunch
of
left wing idiots are afraid logging companies might make a few bucks by
doing some constructive clearing of trees. Same symtoms as the Florida
fire
a few years ago. In some places in Califiornia you can't even cut down
trees on your own property.



Not that environmentalists haven't gone way overboard,
but if we didn't regulate, the Everglades would be long gone.
You have to concede some role for environmental regualtion.
The question is how many regs and which ones.




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Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

Michael Mckelvy wrote:

Let's not forget the fact that the forests are overgrown because a bunch
of left wing idiots are afraid logging companies might make a few bucks by
by doing some constructive clearing of trees. Same symtoms as the Florida
fire a few years ago. In some places in Califiornia you can't even cut down
trees on your own property.

Not that environmentalists haven't gone way overboard,
but if we didn't regulate, the Everglades would be long gone.
You have to concede some role for environmental regualtion.
The question is how many regs and which ones.

I say we need to bring James "Nuclear Eyes" Watt back as Interior Secretary.


GeoSynch

"GeoSynch" wrote in message
k.net...


I say we need to bring James "Nuclear Eyes" Watt back as Interior
Secretary.



I can't remember the name, but there was one Republican one who was once
the governor of Alaska (was it Hinckley??)




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Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

I say we need to bring James "Nuclear Eyes" Watt back as Interior
Secretary.

I can't remember the name, but there was one Republican one who was once
the governor of Alaska (was it Hinckley??)

Murkowski, perhaps?


GeoSynch

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Let's not forget the fact that the forests are overgrown because a bunch
of
left wing idiots are afraid logging companies might make a few bucks by
doing some constructive clearing of trees. Same symtoms as the Florida
fire
a few years ago. In some places in Califiornia you can't even cut down
trees on your own property.



Not that environmentalists haven't gone way overboard,
but if we didn't regulate, the Everglades would be long gone.

If they are so important then they should be bought and held as private
property in trust.

You have to concede some role for environmental regualtion.

I only concede that people should not be allowed to poison their fellow
humans, somehting that can be handled quite easily without an EPA.


The question is how many regs and which ones.

This I will concede.


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"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


I only concede that people should not be allowed to poison their fellow
humans, somehting that can be handled quite easily without an EPA.


During the Nixon/Ford/Reagan/Bush(41) administrations the EPA
functioned quite well without going overboard. We do need to
respect the environment to a greater extent than not poisoning humans.
However, to that end, the EPA has done a very good job, overall.




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Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


I only concede that people should not be allowed to poison their fellow
humans, somehting that can be handled quite easily without an EPA.



During the Nixon/Ford/Reagan/Bush(41) administrations the EPA
functioned quite well without going overboard. We do need to
respect the environment to a greater extent than not poisoning humans.
However, to that end, the EPA has done a very good job, overall.

Didn't Nixon create the EPA?

Nexus 6

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


I only concede that people should not be allowed to poison their fellow
humans, somehting that can be handled quite easily without an EPA.


During the Nixon/Ford/Reagan/Bush(41) administrations the EPA
functioned quite well without going overboard. We do need to
respect the environment to a greater extent than not poisoning humans.
However, to that end, the EPA has done a very good job, overall.



Think how much better we could do without the EPA sucking up money that
could go to local law enforcement.
No transfer cost, no salaries to paper shuffling federal drones, local
contol over local problems, no waiting for the feds to act. It makes better
sense.

Then there's the fact that there won't always be sensible people in charge.
Better there should be no EPA, no DOE, no HUD, none of these agencies do
anything but spend money that could be more efficently spent at local
levels.

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"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Think how much better we could do without the EPA sucking up money that
could go to local law enforcement.
No transfer cost, no salaries to paper shuffling federal drones, local
contol over local problems, no waiting for the feds to act. It makes
better
sense.

Then there's the fact that there won't always be sensible people in
charge.
Better there should be no EPA, no DOE, no HUD, none of these agencies do
anything but spend money that could be more efficently spent at local
levels.

They are necessary, but, it is also necessary to spend money at the local
level, under
local control. Remeber Nixon's "revenue sahring"? I thought that was one of
his best ideas.
You still have Federal Agencies, coordinating Federal programs, but you also
pass Federal
money directly to states, counties and municipalities, for them to spend on
programs
that they decide upon.




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"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Think how much better we could do without the EPA sucking up money that
could go to local law enforcement.
No transfer cost, no salaries to paper shuffling federal drones, local
contol over local problems, no waiting for the feds to act. It makes
better
sense.

Then there's the fact that there won't always be sensible people in
charge.
Better there should be no EPA, no DOE, no HUD, none of these agencies do
anything but spend money that could be more efficently spent at local
levels.

They are necessary,

OSAF. We got along for many years without them.

but, it is also necessary to spend money at the local
level, under
local control. Remeber Nixon's "revenue sahring"? I thought that was one
of
his best ideas.
You still have Federal Agencies, coordinating Federal programs, but you
also
pass Federal
money directly to states, counties and municipalities, for them to spend
on
programs
that they decide upon.

Much simpler to just leave it where it came from in the first place. No
handling charge that way.


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"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Think how much better we could do without the EPA sucking up money
that
could go to local law enforcement.
No transfer cost, no salaries to paper shuffling federal drones, local
contol over local problems, no waiting for the feds to act. It makes
better
sense.

Then there's the fact that there won't always be sensible people in
charge.
Better there should be no EPA, no DOE, no HUD, none of these agencies
do
anything but spend money that could be more efficently spent at local
levels.

They are necessary,

OSAF. We got along for many years without them.


Sure, we also once got along without all the other departments except,
State, War (Defense), Justice, and the Post Office. Jeez, we even got along
without the Department of Homeland Security




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"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...


Think how much better we could do without the EPA sucking up money
that
could go to local law enforcement.
No transfer cost, no salaries to paper shuffling federal drones,
local
contol over local problems, no waiting for the feds to act. It
makes
better
sense.

Then there's the fact that there won't always be sensible people in
charge.
Better there should be no EPA, no DOE, no HUD, none of these
agencies
do
anything but spend money that could be more efficently spent at
local
levels.

They are necessary,

OSAF. We got along for many years without them.


Sure, we also once got along without all the other departments except,
State, War (Defense), Justice, and the Post Office. Jeez, we even got
along
without the Department of Homeland Security


We can lose the Post Office the others all fall under the normal government
functions. Homeland Security was created to right some of the wrongs from
the past where different police agencies were prohibited from sharing
information.



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