Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

And what did the other guy think?

Did you tell him he could have saved $15,800 if he'd just bought a
couple of pairs of drivers from Madisound and had them do all the
design work, as you did? TIA.

--
td

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

--
td

Bill McCullough asked:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

Greg "Trotsky" Singh, the slimy salesdroid behind the Jupiter Audio scam wrote:


Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

Now there's an unbiased source of information! Maybe Stereophool should start
having the manufacturers review their own products. The bigger the ad, the
longer the review. ;-)

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.


Did you tell him he could have saved $15,800 if he'd just bought a
couple of pairs of drivers from Madisound and had them do all the
design work, as you did? TIA.


Dev, anytime you, your gay family memebers, or the effete, lily-livered
pansy ass regulars on this group want to team up and build a speaker,
then do it. It ain't never gonna happen.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:35:58 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.

He probably didn't want to hurt your feeling*, Gerg.

63s sounding like a million bucks over here in Merry Olde. Whatever
would you do with that kind of cash.

--
td

* (sic)

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:35:58 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.


He probably didn't want to hurt your feeling*, Gerg.

63s sounding like a million bucks over here in Merry Olde. Whatever
would you do with that kind of cash.



Guess who's drunk again!

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

Stephen

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:35:27 GMT, MiNE 109
wrote:

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

I think they're very expertly TV aligned.

--
td

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

I have heard rumors that they present an ignition hazard. Something
flammable inside the speaker.

Supposedly, they are a remarkable feat of engineering. The inventor, with no
prior experience, designed them on a Hooters napkin on a rainy afternoon. He
then verified with his own ears that they are the best speakers ever made.

When he gave the design to his builder, the pattern on the napkin was
incorporated. This accounts for the strange bulge at the back.

On 28 Oct 2003 18:49:46 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

Add a tanker ship full of snake oil, and you're right on target.

"The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra" wrote in message
news:lj7upvsn0c0fa313d0vbqlcmehpve1t8g8@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:35:27 GMT, MiNE 109
wrote:

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

I think they're very expertly TV aligned.

They are much-maligned.

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om

So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

Bingo!

Ironically, this is the same guy who has for years, been incessantly flaming
people who gave any credibility to technological approaches to audio. You
know, people who give any credibility to measurements and the like.

The means by which this crossover was designed by Madisound is 100% based on
measurements!

Madisound measured the on-axis frequency response and impedance curve of the
drivers, plugged it into a computer program, and out came component values.
Nothing wrong with this procedure, as far as it goes. However it does not
include things like the acoustical effects of the enclosure and the off-axis
response of the speaker drivers.

It is also true that while measurements can pick up some of the grosser
inadequacies of a loudspeaker's performance, the finest results are still
obtained by a highly experienced listener who tweaks the preliminary design.
This involves making small but well-informed adjustments to crossover parts
values and changing the design of the enclosure.

Bill McCullough wrote:

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:


Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing
- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers
- sell them for reasonable markups.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing

Agreed.

- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.

- sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

Bill McCullough wrote:
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:


Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?



Oh dear, another troll. If it's so easy, troll, then do it.

Robert Morein wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?


I have heard rumors that they present an ignition hazard. Something
flammable inside the speaker.

Supposedly, they are a remarkable feat of engineering. The inventor, with no
prior experience, designed them on a Hooters napkin on a rainy afternoon. He
then verified with his own ears that they are the best speakers ever made.

When he gave the design to his builder, the pattern on the napkin was
incorporated. This accounts for the strange bulge at the back.


How's your pancreas doin', Bob?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?


Bingo!


Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny. If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? With your
imagined metalurgy (sic) skills, you might be able to build your own
drivers--what's your excuse this time?

"trotsky" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had
the speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed
the parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile"
speaker company. Is that about the size of it?

Bingo!

Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny. If it's so easy, why haven't you done it?

Because I want something better than that, and it's readily available from
many other sources.

With your
imagined metalurgy (sic) skills, you might be able to build your own
drivers--what's your excuse this time?

I believe in the benefits of division of labor, and I recognize superior
expertise when I see it.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing

Agreed.

- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.

- sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
e.com



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had
the speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed
the parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile"
speaker company. Is that about the size of it?


Bingo!


Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny. If it's so easy, why haven't you done it?


Because I want something better than that, and it's readily available from
many other sources.


Better than what, Arny? You have no idea how the speakers sound.


With your
imagined metalurgy (sic) skills, you might be able to build your own
drivers--what's your excuse this time?


I believe in the benefits of division of labor, and I recognize superior
expertise when I see it.


Are we talking about your wife again?

"trotsky" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om

So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had
the speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed
the parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile"
speaker company. Is that about the size of it?

Bingo!

Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny.

Actually, I carefully edited any specific references to you out of my post,
Singh. Why you wanted to butt back into this particular discussion escapes
me, as you're getting your butt kicked again. Your alleged superior debating
skills have nothing to do with it, as if they actually existed. you're on
the weak side of the argument. This is an argument that not even Clarence
Darrow could win. BTW, you do know that he did win the "Monkey Trial", don't
you?

If it's so easy, why haven't you done it?

Because I want something better than that, and it's readily
available from many other sources.

Better than what, Arny? You have no idea how the speakers sound.

Which speakers mght that be? I can find out how speakers from many other
sources sound for free - no cost, no shipping, no obligation.

Since you brought up editing posts Singh, let's talk about the part of my
initial post that YOU edited out:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


"Ironically, this is the same guy who has for years, been incessantly
flaming
people who gave any credibility to technological approaches to audio. You
know, people who give any credibility to measurements and the like.

"The means by which this crossover was designed by Madisound is 100% based
on
measurements!

"Madisound measured the on-axis frequency response and impedance curve of
the
drivers, plugged it into a computer program, and out came component values.
Nothing wrong with this procedure, as far as it goes. However it does not
include things like the acoustical effects of the enclosure and the off-axis
response of the speaker drivers.

"It is also true that while measurements can pick up some of the grosser
inadequacies of a loudspeaker's performance, the finest results are still
obtained by a highly experienced listener who tweaks the preliminary design.
This involves making small but well-informed adjustments to crossover parts
values and changing the design of the enclosure.

So why aren't you defending yourself, Singh? You're replying and copying
parts of my posts, but not this part. Does the truth hurt? Don't you have a
snappy reply? Can I expect you to pull a Yustabe and go totally ballistic
and start ranting about "Krooglish"?

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:
- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has nothing to do
with driver costs. If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your post
proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back when you obtain
that skill.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel has one
very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned, technically-sophisticated
chief designer who still remembers what he learned in his science classes,
and aggressively built on a solid technical education over a period of
years. Did I mention that the last time we worked together we did a
demonstration of PCABX?

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:37:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:
- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has nothing to do
with driver costs.

Sorry, you are correct. I meant your second statement.

I maintain that I *can* count however. If anything, I am guilty of
skimming.

If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your post
proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back when you obtain
that skill.

Well, now that I've acknowledged my mistake (and I was able to do it
without your level of spleen and spite), you can accept that your
demand is now met. Of course, I'm pretty sure that you knew that
anyway.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel has one
very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned, technically-sophisticated
chief designer who still remembers what he learned in his science classes,
and aggressively built on a solid technical education over a period of
years. Did I mention that the last time we worked together we did a
demonstration of PCABX?

Well then, if you're going to imply that they are paying *more* for
their drivers than your hypothetical example, how much more do the
drivers have to be for you to still claim that their markups aren't
excessive vis a vis the Jupiters? Keep in mind that they have an
almost $2000 two-way speaker.

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:37:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in
message nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:

- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

I should point out that at this point, the scope of the discussion is in my
view, at minimum all companies that sell high quality 2-way loudspeakers.
When looking at the little Jupiters, similar speakers from Paradigm, NHT,
PSB, BA etc. come to mind. Since the little Jupiters have woofers that are
no great shakes at Xmax, speakers with 6.5 and 7" woofers are competitive.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has
nothing to do with driver costs.

Sorry, you are correct. I meant your second statement.

Thank you Mr. Weil. If you had only been able to muster this level of candor
a number of years ago...

I maintain that I *can* count however. If anything, I am guilty of
skimming.

Well dohhhh!

If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your
post proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back
when you obtain that skill.

Well, now that I've acknowledged my mistake (and I was able to do it
without your level of spleen and spite),

No Weil, you weren't! IME for your entire previous career on RAO, you've
acknowledged a vanishing percentage of your factual mistakes. But hey,
growth and maturity is growth and maturity and it deserves some honor, no
matter how belated. Henceforth in this post I'll refer to you as "Mr. Weil".

you can accept that your
demand is now met. Of course, I'm pretty sure that you knew that
anyway.

Mr. Weil, you're getting close enough to be telling the truth that I should
answer the a rephrased version of your question:

If one agrees with your second statement, then one would have to
disagree with the third, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You've appear to have missed a logical step Mr. Weil. You presumed that I
think that the pricing of all $1600 or more a pair 2-way speakers is
reasonable. Since I don't think that the pricing of all $1600 or more 2-way
speakers is reasonable, that's that!

For the record, I think that the reasonableness of the pricing of all $1600
or more a pair 2-way small consumer loudspeakers needs to be judged on an
individual basis. OTOH the $1600 per pair pricing of large venue 2-ways such
as those made by Community Light and Sound is generally accepted. The
roughly $1600 per pair pricing of small high quality studio monitors like
the JBL LSR8P or Mackie HR828s is also generally accepted.

One problem with Usenet trolls is that they seem to live in a
black-and-white world, and scream "contradiction" when a superficial
ignorant analysis doesn't work, which is most of the time.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel has
one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years. Did I mention that the
last time we worked together we did a demonstration of PCABX?

Well then, if you're going to imply that they are paying *more* for
their drivers than your hypothetical example, how much more do the
drivers have to be for you to still claim that their markups aren't
excessive vis a vis the Jupiters?

How you can find an implication about drivers in this paragraph Mr. Weil, I
just don't know. I put in an implication that part of what you pay for with
a loudspeaker purchase is the designer's skill, experience and track record.
How that got lost, I just don't know! Skimming?

Keep in mind that they have an almost $2000 two-way speaker.

I'm sure that if you do that, you're paying a lot for the designer's skill,
experience and track record.

Keep in mind the other examples I listed.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:44:42 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:37:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in
message nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:

- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

I should point out that at this point, the scope of the discussion is in my
view, at minimum all companies that sell high quality 2-way loudspeakers.
When looking at the little Jupiters, similar speakers from Paradigm, NHT,
PSB, BA etc. come to mind. Since the little Jupiters have woofers that are
no great shakes at Xmax, speakers with 6.5 and 7" woofers are competitive.

If you wish to redefine the discussion, OK. However, I have to point
out that the woofer is only one component of the speaker componentry.
I want to remind you that the ribbon tweeter, regardless of what you
think about its cost to the manufacturer, keeps it out of this new
category that you have imposed on the discussion.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has
nothing to do with driver costs.

Sorry, you are correct. I meant your second statement.

Thank you Mr. Weil. If you had only been able to muster this level of candor
a number of years ago...

Ummm, Arnold, I have *always* quickly admitted any factual errors.

I maintain that I *can* count however. If anything, I am guilty of
skimming.

Well dohhhh!

Well, it it were this obvious, why the need to imply otherwise?

If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your
post proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back
when you obtain that skill.

Well, now that I've acknowledged my mistake (and I was able to do it
without your level of spleen and spite),

No Weil, you weren't! IME for your entire previous career on RAO, you've
acknowledged a vanishing percentage of your factual mistakes. But hey,
growth and maturity is growth and maturity and it deserves some honor, no
matter how belated. Henceforth in this post I'll refer to you as "Mr. Weil".

As you wish.

I'm glad that you've now acknowledged that your previous use of the
last name only was simply a device for belittling an opponent.

Took you long enough, despite your previous denials.

you can accept that your
demand is now met. Of course, I'm pretty sure that you knew that
anyway.

Mr. Weil, you're getting close enough to be telling the truth that I should
answer the a rephrased version of your question:

If one agrees with your second statement, then one would have to
disagree with the third, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You've appear to have missed a logical step Mr. Weil. You presumed that I
think that the pricing of all $1600 or more a pair 2-way speakers is
reasonable. Since I don't think that the pricing of all $1600 or more 2-way
speakers is reasonable, that's that!

But you didn't state that when you made your (seemingly) global claim
about what speaker manufacturers pay for their drivers. The
implication is that it doesn't matter *how* good you think they are.

For the record, I think that the reasonableness of the pricing of all $1600
or more a pair 2-way small consumer loudspeakers needs to be judged on an
individual basis.

Fair enough. Wouldn't the next logical step be to judge *heard*
speakers, since virtually everyone agrees that speakers are the
hardest component to quantify using raw specs?

OTOH the $1600 per pair pricing of large venue 2-ways such
as those made by Community Light and Sound is generally accepted. The
roughly $1600 per pair pricing of small high quality studio monitors like
the JBL LSR8P or Mackie HR828s is also generally accepted.

And how do you know that this isn't the case with the Jupiters?

One problem with Usenet trolls is that they seem to live in a
black-and-white world, and scream "contradiction" when a superficial
ignorant analysis doesn't work, which is most of the time.

Would a "superficial ignorant analysis" cover trying to evalaute an
unheard speaker?

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel has
one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years. Did I mention that the
last time we worked together we did a demonstration of PCABX?

Well then, if you're going to imply that they are paying *more* for
their drivers than your hypothetical example, how much more do the
drivers have to be for you to still claim that their markups aren't
excessive vis a vis the Jupiters?

How you can find an implication about drivers in this paragraph Mr. Weil, I
just don't know. I put in an implication that part of what you pay for with
a loudspeaker purchase is the designer's skill, experience and track record.
How that got lost, I just don't know! Skimming?

You said *nothing* about skill, experience and track record. You
simply talked about "testing". You've been pretty quick to disparage
one of the companies that has arguably had the longest track record in
"experience and track record" AS WELL AS testing. That leaves only
skill and I think that few peoplewould dispute Paul Klipsch's skill in
designing and building speakers. One might argue with the "ideology",
but then you'll have to argue with Altec and ElectroVoice as well.

Keep in mind that they have an almost $2000 two-way speaker.

I'm sure that if you do that, you're paying a lot for the designer's skill,
experience and track record.

What kind of track record does Bugtussel have?

Keep in mind the other examples I listed.

And mine as well. You've previously trashed one of the most
"experienced" speaker companies in history. Why? Partially because it
was *me* talking about them and partially because you believe in other
speaker topographies.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
gle.com


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had
the speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed
the parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile"
speaker company. Is that about the size of it?


Bingo!


Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny.


Actually, I carefully edited any specific references to you out of my post,
Singh.


Actually, Krueger, you specifically fed a troll. I'm right as usual.


Why you wanted to butt back into this particular discussion escapes
me, as you're getting your butt kicked again.


That's not a Christian thing to say. Maybe I'm just here to watch you
traipse your phony religion through the mud over and over again.


Your alleged superior debating
skills


Google reference?


have nothing to do with it, as if they actually existed. you're on
the weak side of the argument. This is an argument that not even Clarence
Darrow could win. BTW, you do know that he did win the "Monkey Trial", don't
you?


Yeah, making the Bible look like a joke. I'm surprised you'd mention this.


If it's so easy, why haven't you done it?


Because I want something better than that, and it's readily
available from many other sources.


Better than what, Arny? You have no idea how the speakers sound.


Which speakers mght that be? I can find out how speakers from many other
sources sound for free - no cost, no shipping, no obligation.

Since you brought up editing posts Singh, let's talk about the part of my
initial post that YOU edited out:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


"Ironically, this is the same guy who has for years, been incessantly
flaming
people who gave any credibility to technological approaches to audio. You
know, people who give any credibility to measurements and the like.

"The means by which this crossover was designed by Madisound is 100% based
on
measurements!

"Madisound measured the on-axis frequency response and impedance curve of
the
drivers, plugged it into a computer program, and out came component values.
Nothing wrong with this procedure, as far as it goes. However it does not
include things like the acoustical effects of the enclosure and the off-axis
response of the speaker drivers.

"It is also true that while measurements can pick up some of the grosser
inadequacies of a loudspeaker's performance, the finest results are still
obtained by a highly experienced listener who tweaks the preliminary design.
This involves making small but well-informed adjustments to crossover parts
values and changing the design of the enclosure.

So why aren't you defending yourself, Singh? You're replying and copying
parts of my posts, but not this part. Does the truth hurt? Don't you have a
snappy reply? Can I expect you to pull a Yustabe and go totally ballistic
and start ranting about "Krooglish"?


What's there to defend, Kruegles? I've got an excellent product, the
results speak for themselves. It speaks to how little you are serious
about audio by not having heard it.

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:44:42 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:37:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in
message nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but
they:

- (1) do real research and testing

Agreed.

- (2) pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

- (3) sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

I should point out that at this point, the scope of the discussion
is in my view, at minimum all companies that sell high quality 2-way
loudspeakers. When looking at the little Jupiters, similar speakers
from Paradigm, NHT, PSB, BA etc. come to mind. Since the little
Jupiters have woofers that are no great shakes at Xmax, speakers
with 6.5 and 7" woofers are competitive.

If you wish to redefine the discussion, OK. However, I have to point
out that the woofer is only one component of the speaker componentry.

You can if you want to, but

(a) It's irrelevant to the thrust of my discussion which I now see flew
completely over your head. I'm addressing the fact that some speakers I
think are competitive have smaller drivers. Since smaller drivers can easily
have larger Xmax, they can keep up or surpass the little Jupiters in the
bass department. Smaller bass drivers have other advantages but I don't want
to go off track.

(b) It's a classic case of "Taking coals to Newcastle". Nobody in their
right mind could miss the fact that we're talking speakers with two drivers.

I want to remind you that the ribbon tweeter, regardless of what you
think about its cost to the manufacturer, keeps it out of this new
category that you have imposed on the discussion.

Nice try at deceptively masquerading an OSAF assertion with a *reminder*.
The ribbon tweeter is just another tweeter until someone shows that it has
some unique advantages. Since no such evidence has been provided, this would
be a non-existent fact.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You obviously can't count Weil, because my first statement has
nothing to do with driver costs.

Sorry, you are correct. I meant your second statement.

Thank you Mr. Weil. If you had only been able to muster this level
of candor a number of years ago...

Ummm, Arnold, I have *always* quickly admitted any factual errors.

LOL!

I maintain that I *can* count however. If anything, I am guilty of
skimming.

Well dohhhh!

Well, it it were this obvious, why the need to imply otherwise?

Because of the well-proven need to nail you extremely hard in order to get
you to see the obvious.

If you were going to intelligently make this sort of
comment, you'd address it to my second and third statements. Your
post proves only that you can't count to three. Please come back
when you obtain that skill.

Well, now that I've acknowledged my mistake (and I was able to do it
without your level of spleen and spite),

No Weil, you weren't! IME for your entire previous career on RAO,
you've acknowledged a vanishing percentage of your factual mistakes.
But hey, growth and maturity is growth and maturity and it deserves
some honor, no matter how belated. Henceforth in this post I'll
refer to you as "Mr. Weil".

As you wish.

As it is. Just look at all the factual mistakes and debating trade
deceptions you've already made that I've had to correct!

I'm glad that you've now acknowledged that your previous use of the
last name only was simply a device for belittling an opponent.

It was a device for getting the facts through a might thick skull.

Took you long enough, despite your previous denials.

No, just one post this time. BTW that's a new record.

you can accept that your
demand is now met. Of course, I'm pretty sure that you knew that
anyway.

Mr. Weil, you're getting close enough to be telling the truth that I
should answer the a rephrased version of your question:

If one agrees with your second statement, then one would have to
disagree with the third, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers
for $1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

You've appear to have missed a logical step Mr. Weil. You presumed
that I think that the pricing of all $1600 or more a pair 2-way
speakers is reasonable. Since I don't think that the pricing of all
$1600 or more 2-way speakers is reasonable, that's that!

But you didn't state that when you made your (seemingly) global claim
about what speaker manufacturers pay for their drivers.

I didn't think I needed to state something that obvious, but you proved me
wrong, Mr. Weil.

The implication is that it doesn't matter *how* good you think they are.

Hey Weil, you can make up anything you want and as long as you don't say
that I said it...

For the record, I think that the reasonableness of the pricing of
all $1600 or more a pair 2-way small consumer loudspeakers needs to
be judged on an individual basis.

Fair enough. Wouldn't the next logical step be to judge *heard*
speakers, since virtually everyone agrees that speakers are the
hardest component to quantify using raw specs?

Not necessarily. I'm addressing perceived value in the marketplace.

OTOH the $1600 per pair pricing of large venue 2-ways such
as those made by Community Light and Sound is generally accepted. The
roughly $1600 per pair pricing of small high quality studio
monitors like the JBL LSR8P or Mackie HR828s is also generally
accepted.

And how do you know that this isn't the case with the Jupiters?

I can tell the class difference between these speakers and Jupiters, even if
you can't Mr. Weil.

One problem with Usenet trolls is that they seem to live in a
black-and-white world, and scream "contradiction" when a superficial
ignorant analysis doesn't work, which is most of the time.

Would a "superficial ignorant analysis" cover trying to evalaute an
unheard speaker?

It all depends. Just hearing something does not instantly elevate the
listener to world-class unimpeachible tonmeister excellence.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I don't know what sort of volumes Bugtussel is moving. Bugtussel
has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what
he learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a
solid technical education over a period of years. Did I mention
that the last time we worked together we did a demonstration of
PCABX?

Well then, if you're going to imply that they are paying *more* for
their drivers than your hypothetical example, how much more do the
drivers have to be for you to still claim that their markups aren't
excessive vis a vis the Jupiters?

How you can find an implication about drivers in this paragraph Mr.
Weil, I just don't know. I put in an implication that part of what
you pay for with a loudspeaker purchase is the designer's skill,
experience and track record. How that got lost, I just don't know!
Skimming?

You said *nothing* about skill, experience and track record.

That's true. I never wrote the following, ever in my life, particularly not
in this thread, and it was surely never quoted in this post:

"Bugtussel has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years."

And if you believe that Mr Weil, you can stand over there with Mr. Kramer.

Mr. Weil, what in heaven's name do you think I was talking about when I
said: "...a seasoned, technically-sophisticated chief designer who still
remembers what he learned in his science classes, and aggressively built
on a solid technical education over a period of years."

Mr. Weil do you seriously think this sentence is a discussion of prices paid
for loudspeaker drivers? Exactly what do you think the word "designer"
means?

You simply talked about "testing".

LOL!

I said:

"Bugtussel has one very strong advantage over Jupiter - a seasoned,
technically-sophisticated chief designer who still remembers what he
learned in his science classes, and aggressively built on a solid
technical education over a period of years."

You've been pretty quick to disparage
one of the companies that has arguably had the longest track record in
"experience and track record" AS WELL AS testing.

Not at all.

That leaves only
skill and I think that few peoplewould dispute Paul Klipsch's skill in
designing and building speakers.

Paul Klipsch died a year ago last May. He was 98 at the time. What do you
think was the last speaker system he actually had full design responsibility
for?

One might argue with the "ideology",
but then you'll have to argue with Altec and ElectroVoice as well.

I don't believe that either were dominated by one man as recently as Klipsch
was, even though its probably been a decade or more since Klipsch controlled
the day-to-day operations of the company named after him.

Furthermore, the Altec Lansing company of today shares little with the
company that it was when it was competing with Paul Klipsch in the high end
audio market.

Keep in mind that they have an almost $2000 two-way speaker.

I'm sure that if you do that, you're paying a lot for the designer's
skill, experience and track record.

What kind of track record does Bugtussel have?

Asked and answered as well as I can answer.

Keep in mind the other examples I listed.

And mine as well. You've previously trashed one of the most
"experienced" speaker companies in history.

I did not. If you reproduced my alleged trashing of this company, we'd get a
good laugh.

Why? Partially because it
was *me* talking about them and partially because you believe in other
speaker topographies.

Not at all.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Nice try at deceptively masquerading an OSAF assertion with a *reminder*.
The ribbon tweeter is just another tweeter until someone shows that it has
some unique advantages. Since no such evidence has been provided, this would
be a non-existent fact.

Since you seem to acknowledge that you don't know much about the
advantages of ribbon tweeters (or at least the audible differences),
we'll just call this a day.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


I didn't think I needed to state something that obvious, but you proved me
wrong, Mr. Weil.

The implication is that it doesn't matter *how* good you think they are.

Hey Weil, you can make up anything you want and as long as you don't say
that I said it...

I guess youcan't make up your mind about the honorific.

Or maybe you just can't keep up with yourself.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Why? Partially because it
was *me* talking about them and partially because you believe in other
speaker topographies.

Not at all

You're either deluded or a liar. Which is it?

Gregipus Debaticus picks his nose in Usenet's front window.

I'm right as usual.

Your alleged superior debating skills

Google reference?

This might take a while. Perhaps you might go on a diet while I dig
through the archives.

Arny Krueger wrote:


Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.


True. But, since he's paying full retail for his drivers - it's like
a big company paying $5.

His drivers could be a lot better for his prices. As if $100 more in
drivers wouldn't greatly improve the sound and long-term sales.

dave weil wrote:


If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

I was talking about other small firms that sell direct. I can guarantee
Ellis puts twice the money in raw materials into his speakers as
Greg does - especially in the quality of drivers.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net

Arny Krueger wrote:

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.

True. But, since he's paying full retail for his drivers - it's like
a big company paying $5.

More or less. I'd put it at $8 or 10.

His drivers could be a lot better for his prices. As if $100 more in
drivers wouldn't greatly improve the sound and long-term sales.

His big salesmanship mistake was making it too easy for people to find out
the ingredients he used.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:


Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.



True. But, since he's paying full retail for his drivers - it's like
a big company paying $5.

His drivers could be a lot better for his prices.


Joe, you made me laugh! Haven't you been following along: my speakers
sound better than Dunlavys (with a couple caveats). You just get more
and more ignorant as time progresses. Why are do so many guys like you
that are into **** sound quality permeate these groups?

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
dave weil wrote:


If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.


I was talking about other small firms that sell direct. I can guarantee
Ellis puts twice the money in raw materials into his speakers as
Greg does - especially in the quality of drivers.


And my hunch is the speakers sound worse.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net


Arny Krueger wrote:


Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker
drivers. More accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big
enough quantities that $20-30 gets them just about *anything they
want*.


True. But, since he's paying full retail for his drivers - it's like
a big company paying $5.


More or less. I'd put it at $8 or 10.


His drivers could be a lot better for his prices. As if $100 more in
drivers wouldn't greatly improve the sound and long-term sales.


His big salesmanship mistake was making it too easy for people to find out
the ingredients he used.


Some Christian you turned out to be: honesty is the best policy.