As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.
http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

Blipvert said:

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars here...

Trying to get decent sound from a receiver, mains, surrounds, and a
sub for $500 is a joke. You should either look at used gear or one of
those "all in one box" deals.

Blipvert wrote:
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?


http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=56

"Blipvert" wrote in message

As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

If you're adamant about the $500 figure, the acronym to remember is "HTIB"
or "Home Theater In A Box".

Search google for "HTIB" and see what the market looks like.

This turns out to be a receiver and speaker packaged combination, sometimes
with DVD added. obviously, you don't want a HTIB with a DVD.

You'll probably find more wisdom about HTIB setups in the
alt.home-theater.misc newsgroup.

It's rarely a good idea to buy at the bottom of a market segment - in the
HTIB market $500 is actually an upper-level price.

Here's some summaries of what's available and explanations of the HTIB
concept:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4500-5_7-0.html?qt=HTIB

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/HTIB/HTIB_comp.htm

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/re...pgrade.html?pa
ge=1

http://aolsvc.soundandvision.aol.com...,guid,3,page,6,
00.asp

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:30:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you're adamant about the $500 figure, the acronym to remember is "HTIB"
or "Home Theater In A Box".


That was something I neglected to mention in my first post... avoiding
HTIB was a high priority- I wanted to give them something that they
could transform into a very nice system down the road- which is why I
started off with the Onkyo A/V receiver. I shun all HTIBs as, believe
it or not, the weakness usually lies in the a/v receiver bundled with
the package, even though the speakers are usually quite bad as well.
They're really not much more than boom boxes with separates, and
they're the bane of the Best Buy/Circuit City market right now.

Even though the non-flexible price point meant that they ended up with
a set of CVs which would be right at home in an HTIB, at least... they
have possibilities down the road, and they can move the CVs to the
kid's game computer after investing in some quality.

"Blipvert" wrote in message

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:30:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you're adamant about the $500 figure, the acronym to remember is
"HTIB" or "Home Theater In A Box".


That was something I neglected to mention in my first post... avoiding
HTIB was a high priority- I wanted to give them something that they
could transform into a very nice system down the road- which is why I
started off with the Onkyo A/V receiver. I shun all HTIBs as, believe
it or not, the weakness usually lies in the a/v receiver bundled with
the package, even though the speakers are usually quite bad as well.
They're really not much more than boom boxes with separates, and
they're the bane of the Best Buy/Circuit City market right now.

I've looked at some HTIBs that were as you say, and some that were not. Some
place around $450 the receiver quality seems to be similar to that which you
find with $200 stand-alone products. Most of the sub-$250 HTIB systems are
eyewash.

While going down the separate product route. I'm hesitant about your current
proposal on the grounds that you're spending too much on the electronics,
and therefore not enough on the speakers.

IME there's a lot more audible difference between $200 a pair speakers and
$300 a pair speakers than there is between a $200 surround receiver and a
$300 surround receiver. A $200 surround receiver generally isn't a stumbling
block until you're spending $2500 or more on speakers.

Blipvert wrote:

As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

Notify her that this requires seven pieces of equipment and wall
mounts.

- Receiver
- 5 speakers
- powered subwoofer(amplifier/electronics in it as well)

There is no way to get decent sound out of $500. *Maybe*
if you ditched the subwoofer and got a used amplifier and
something like an Energy take 5.2 system without the sub...

But used isn't going to make any friends. Heh.

Politely ask her what her absolute maximum would be - as
the amplifier is half of that $500 budget already and that
leaves a paltry $50 per speaker and no sub. $800 for instance,
would magnify the choices by several fold. $1000 would get decent
5-6 inch speakers like Tannoy or Mirage/Energy

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...ull&1069904524
That's a good example - a set like this plus a receiver.
Other than used, $500-$600 isn't possible.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...oni&1072451800
Tiny little speakers, but has a decent sub with it.

Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:30:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you're adamant about the $500 figure, the acronym to remember is "HTIB"
or "Home Theater In A Box".



That was something I neglected to mention in my first post... avoiding
HTIB was a high priority- I wanted to give them something that they
could transform into a very nice system down the road- which is why I
started off with the Onkyo A/V receiver. I shun all HTIBs as, believe
it or not, the weakness usually lies in the a/v receiver bundled with
the package, even though the speakers are usually quite bad as well.
They're really not much more than boom boxes with separates, and
they're the bane of the Best Buy/Circuit City market right now.

Then you'll have to get a nice used setup like the ones I posted from
Audiogon and get a new receiver. I'd also look at Sony, HK, and Denon's
lower priced models. IIRC, you can get a decent surround amplifier on sale
for about $200. All it needs is 5 channels and DTS.

$600-$700 would be possible. $500 is HTIB only. Sorry.

Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:30:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you're adamant about the $500 figure, the acronym to remember is "HTIB"
or "Home Theater In A Box".



That was something I neglected to mention in my first post... avoiding
HTIB was a high priority- I wanted to give them something that they
could transform into a very nice system down the road- which is why I
started off with the Onkyo A/V receiver. I shun all HTIBs as, believe
it or not, the weakness usually lies in the a/v receiver bundled with
the package, even though the speakers are usually quite bad as well.
They're really not much more than boom boxes with separates, and
they're the bane of the Best Buy/Circuit City market right now.

Even though the non-flexible price point meant that they ended up with
a set of CVs which would be right at home in an HTIB, at least... they
have possibilities down the road, and they can move the CVs to the
kid's game computer after investing in some quality.

Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...ull&1069904524
That's a good example - a set like this plus a receiver.

I forgot to mention - this doesn;t have a sub, but is a decent
system nonetheless. Their later "upgrade" would be a sub, of
course. The towers plus the high-efficency speakers(91db
from their site) will give them plenty of low-end for now.

Gobs better deal than the Energy I listed - but note - he did
say "OBO".

Well - this set or something simmilar, plus a receiver.

There are a couple threads concerning the cheap setup issue covered in Audio
Assylum and AVSForum... I think a couple candidates to consider (for the
future that is) a

Omage AV21 -- $100/pair, shipping/tax included, supposedly sounds like
speakers in the $500 range.

Whatmough -- check on Audiogon, I believe their 5.1 setup costs a cheap
$400; it's a decent Aussie brand currently trying to enter the US market,
hence the super cheap prices.

Just my 2c...

"Blipvert" wrote in message
...
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.

http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)

Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!

http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.

Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)


Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!

http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.

Then - the budget jumps to $500 for a set.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)



Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!
http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.


Then - the budget jumps to $500 for a set.


There is a clientele for Bose Accoustimass 15 and it costs 3 times this
price, so ? ;-)

Blipvert wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)


Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!

http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.

Perhaps but this solution isn't more surrealistic than your quest...

Sometime the only chance you have to find something acceptable which
would be able to "fit the purpose" at a given level of price is to look
at the border of 2 worlds who don't communicate... You can have
interesting surprises.

I bet you that this Klipsch desktop audio system is better that any HTIB
you can have for your $500.00 ! ;-)

Lionel wrote:
Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)




Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!
http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.



Then - the budget jumps to $500 for a set.


There is a clientele for Bose Accoustimass 15 and it costs 3 times this
price, so ? ;-)

I obviously meant i the O.P. has a problem with HTIAB and "desktop"
type systems, a nice sued surround setup is his only viable alternative
unless he wants to up the budget to $700-$800.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Lionel wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Blipvert wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:59 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


Klipsch is prestigious, it's good for the ego.
If you add this : http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=8
All family ego would be flattered. ;-)





Purchase many great Klipsch system! Harmony introduced throughout. Big
fun of contemporary honarable name!
http://www.engrish.com

Seriously... thanks, but that's an overpriced system meant for
someone's desktop... if that.




Then - the budget jumps to $500 for a set.


There is a clientele for Bose Accoustimass 15 and it costs 3 times
this price, so ? ;-)


I obviously meant i the O.P. has a problem with HTIAB and "desktop"
type systems, a nice sued surround setup is his only viable alternative
unless he wants to up the budget to $700-$800.

Agree with you... This is why I proposed this audacious alternative.

Lionel wrote:


I obviously meant i the O.P. has a problem with HTIAB and "desktop"
type systems, a nice sued surround setup is his only viable alternative
unless he wants to up the budget to $700-$800.

Agree with you... This is why I proposed this audacious alternative.

What you posted was not in the same league as the system I found listed
on audiogon.