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#1
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mic help needed
Hopefully some of you guys can give me some good ideas. Here's my
situation: I have a home studio ( Nuendo, Mackie board) in a 20 x 20 converted garage, but have no vocal booth yet. I've been recording my vocals with a 414 for several years. I'm not a great singer, but would like to get a better( bigger, more airy) sound . I end up having to eq my vocals down at around 500 and up at 3-5k. I'm trying to figure out if I would be better with a higher quality mic, or a good mic pre,etc. A friend lent me a TC gold channel, and it has some great presets, but is real complicated for setting up custom patches. I've also thought about the Avalon 737, but haven't really been able to play with one. Should I be thinking more about a better mic, or a mic pre ( or both). There's really no place down here (south Fl.) wher I can try various mics, or pre's. The suggestions I've gotten on mics range from akg solid tube,Nueman tl 103,blue bottle,u87, Soundelux. I've also heard a lot about the SE Gemini, but haven't tried it. Thanks Bruce Yarock |
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#3
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mic help needed
Which 414? The TL11(gold screen) is a lot airier than the ULS(silver
screen). Have you tried any dynamics? You may be pleasantly surprised. Sometimes a 58 works better due to the eq curve in the mic. Rick Hollett wrote in message oups.com... Hopefully some of you guys can give me some good ideas. Here's my situation: I have a home studio ( Nuendo, Mackie board) in a 20 x 20 converted garage, but have no vocal booth yet. I've been recording my vocals with a 414 for several years. I'm not a great singer, but would like to get a better( bigger, more airy) sound . I end up having to eq my vocals down at around 500 and up at 3-5k. I'm trying to figure out if I would be better with a higher quality mic, or a good mic pre,etc. A friend lent me a TC gold channel, and it has some great presets, but is real complicated for setting up custom patches. I've also thought about the Avalon 737, but haven't really been able to play with one. Should I be thinking more about a better mic, or a mic pre ( or both). There's really no place down here (south Fl.) wher I can try various mics, or pre's. The suggestions I've gotten on mics range from akg solid tube,Nueman tl 103,blue bottle,u87, Soundelux. I've also heard a lot about the SE Gemini, but haven't tried it. Thanks Bruce Yarock |
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#4
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mic help needed
wrote:
Hopefully some of you guys can give me some good ideas. Here's my situation: I have a home studio ( Nuendo, Mackie board) in a 20 x 20 converted garage, but have no vocal booth yet. I've been recording my vocals with a 414 for several years. I'm not a great singer, but would like to get a better( bigger, more airy) sound . I end up having to eq my vocals down at around 500 and up at 3-5k. I'm trying to figure out if I would be better with a higher quality mic, or a good mic pre,etc. 1. If you have 500 Hz issues, I'd suspect a room problem. 2. How are you using the Mackie? Are you just using the preamp and pulling out of the inserts, or are you tracking through the whole thing? A friend lent me a TC gold channel, and it has some great presets, but is real complicated for setting up custom patches. I've also thought about the Avalon 737, but haven't really been able to play with one. Should I be thinking more about a better mic, or a mic pre ( or both). While I am not a fan of the 414 series (although it should be pointed out that the various 414 variants all sound pretty different), I'd be looking at room problems before anything else. I also might consider radical EQ in the very top octave if that's the kind of airiness you are aiming for. If you are having to EQ the 414 up at 3-5kc, try instead pulling _down_ below that. Try and think about subtractive EQ rather than additive. Odds are what you really want is to pull out something in the 1-3 kc region. There's really no place down here (south Fl.) wher I can try various mics, or pre's. The suggestions I've gotten on mics range from akg solid tube,Nueman tl 103,blue bottle,u87, Soundelux. I've also heard a lot about the SE Gemini, but haven't tried it. Might be worth a trip to Miami to check some mikes out, but I'd spend a little time trying harder to get the sound out of the setup you have. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#5
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mic help needed
Bruce Yarock said:
I've been recording my vocals with a 414 for several years. I'm not a great singer, but would like to get a better( bigger, more airy) sound . I end up having to eq my vocals down at around 500 and up at 3-5k. I'm trying to figure out if I would be better with a higher quality mic, or a good mic pre,etc. And then Ty Ford replied: Air? The 414 is a pretty airy Mic. Do you have lots of foam or carpet up? Bigger? So you want something that sounds NOT like you? There's a lot of "BIG" at 500Hz. Instead of 500 Hz move down to 125 Hz and fiddle with stuff from there down. Ty's right, you really don't want to be screwing around with the 400-500Hz region. Dipping these freqencies will make you sound like you have a stuffed-up nose or an adenoid problem. Now, I'm going to tell you a bunch of stuff that is counter-intuitive. If you want to sound bigger and more airy, you have to sing less loudly. Ironically, the louder you sing the smaller you'll sound. You don't have to be loud to sound powerful. Incidentally, this idea applies to drums as well. Make sure your mic is at least 8" out, and for singing 12" is a better starting place. Especially if you back off a 414, 500Hz will be much less of a problem and your lows will come into focus and out of the muck. The mic needs distance to capture your chest in addition to your throat and face, and to keep the proximity effect from being overwhelming. If moving the mic out is giving you problems with your room, then put the mic 12 - 18" out and fix the dang room. There is no substitute for good mic placement. You say you're recording in Nuendo. Are you using compression? Moderate compression will make you sound bigger and airier, but too much will make you sound small. You also mentioned that you were running the 414 into a Mackie. I thank Ty for pointing out to me several years ago that 414's don't really like some Mackies. I use the old analog 8-bus, and with a 414 switching to even a Symetrix was a noticeable improvement. Now I just use the Mackie for monitoring. Still, I'd worry about buying a new preamp LAST. You don't need a new mic. None of the mics you mentioned are better than a 414, just different. And I tell you that, NOT being a real fan of the 414 myself, and as a former owner of a 414 TL-II and current owner of a U87Ai and a pair of TLM-103s. Trust me. Quit screwing with 500Hz and sing softer. Try singing half as loud. Then try halving that again and see what happens. Jeff Jasper www.jeffjasper.com |
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#6
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mic help needed
On 10/22/05 12:35 PM, in article ,
"Jeff Jasper" wrote: ... Now, I'm going to tell you a bunch of stuff that is counter-intuitive. If you want to sound bigger and more airy, you have to sing less loudly. Ironically, the louder you sing the smaller you'll sound. You don't have to be loud to sound powerful. Incidentally, this idea applies to drums as well. Make sure your mic is at least 8" out, and for singing 12" is a better starting place. Especially if you back off a 414, 500Hz will be much less of a problem and your lows will come into focus and out of the muck. The mic needs distance to capture your chest in addition to your throat and face, and to keep the proximity effect from being overwhelming. If moving the mic out is giving you problems with your room, then put the mic 12 - 18" out and fix the dang room. There is no substitute for good mic placement. You say you're recording in Nuendo. Are you using compression? Moderate compression will make you sound bigger and airier, but too much will make you sound small. You don't need a new mic. None of the mics you mentioned are better than a 414, just different. And I tell you that, NOT being a real fan of the 414 myself, and as a former owner of a 414 TL-II and current owner of a U87Ai and a pair of TLM-103s. Trust me. Quit screwing with 500Hz and sing softer. Try singing half as loud. Then try halving that again and see what happens. Jeff Jasper All repeated because it's just so damned well-written and so ... Well just danged RIGHT. Is Mr. Jasper running for anything I can vote for? |
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#7
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mic help needed
Guys, thanks for the info.To answer some of your questions-
1-The 414 is a c414 b-tl ii. 2- I had been going into the Mackie and out to Nuendo via one of the subs. Lately I've been going into the Gold Channel to Nuendo(digital), and monitoring through the mackie. 3-I had been using a little compression with a lower end Behrringer as an insert to the mackie channel. I'm going to try more "subtractive" eq approach as reccomended. Distance from the mic-I think I've probably been to close in the past. Not really being a trained singer who can project, I guess I've compensated by getting real close to the mic. maybe I was tricking myself (because it was easier) into thinking I was getting a fuller, more intimate sound.Maybe that was causing my eq problems. I'll try backing off to at least 10' and see how that affects my sound. If I continue using a mic pre, would you suggest using some mild "subtractive" eq on the tracking end? Thanks again for answering. Bruce Yarock |
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#8
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mic help needed
SSJVCmag wrote:
Is Mr. Jasper running for anything I can vote for? The highway..... G Jeff Jasper www.jeffjasper.com |
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#9
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mic help needed
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:39:37 -0400, wrote
(in article .com): Guys, thanks for the info.To answer some of your questions- 1-The 414 is a c414 b-tl ii. 2- I had been going into the Mackie and out to Nuendo via one of the subs. Lately I've been going into the Gold Channel to Nuendo(digital), and monitoring through the mackie. 3-I had been using a little compression with a lower end Behrringer as an insert to the mackie channel. I'm going to try more "subtractive" eq approach as reccomended. HA! compression. OK, I don't know the Behringer compressor, but here are some ideas. no more than 1-3 dB gain reduction. no higher than 1.5:1 ratio. mid attack, mid release. I've encountered some folks who think 10 dB of gain reduction is "a little" because the meter goes to 30. That's not how it works. Distance from the mic-I think I've probably been to close in the past. Not really being a trained singer who can project, I guess I've compensated by getting real close to the mic. maybe I was tricking myself (because it was easier) into thinking I was getting a fuller, more intimate sound.Maybe that was causing my eq problems. I'll try backing off to at least 10' and see how that affects my sound. If I continue using a mic pre, would you suggest using some mild "subtractive" eq on the tracking end? Thanks again for answering. Bruce Yarock If you're climbing up on the mic, that's bad. 10" is good. That'll get rid of your low end hump. Also, if you use a bit of compression during the mix, it will also tuck in the bottom. As for your acoustics. I have had recent success by using the figure of eight pattern on vocals. I position the mic horizontally and have the nulls aimed at the ceiling and the floor. My space is 25' x 35'. I set the mic up at one end of the room. At the other end of the room, I have an entire wall of LPs. It's a very nice diffusion wall. I also have a few side wall treatments, mostly 2" x 2' x 4' panels of Auralex and have covered several of the 2' x 4' "acoustic ceiling panels with 1" foam. Note: SPARINGLY! Foam rooms suck the life out of everything. In small spaces with loud sounds, you will excite the foam and you can hear it. One of my clients says she likes it here because of the space she hears on her vocals. I'm thinking it's the room and the way the backside of the figure of eight is catching what comes back off the LPs. (and what doesn't come back as ceiling bounce.) I'm using a Neumann U 89 through a Millennnia Media STT-1. You can hear what she sounds like by going to my site, clicking on the link at the bottom of the first column and downloading "Wind" by Symbiont. My own latest tune "Existential Boogie" uses the same mic technique, same mic. BTW, I have had engineers who really didn't like any 414 or TLM 103, because they sounded too nasty on the top. When they heard them through my GML preamps they were quite amazed. It was fun to observe the discovery.  Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#10
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Re Rick's point re SM58 - mic help needed
"rick hollett" wrote in message ... Sometimes a 58 works better due to the eq curve in the mic. Rick Hollett Agreed. Plus compressing and pre and post eqing; doubling; mono slap, eqd, reverb(?); stereo aux delayed, eqd reverb(?); toy with panning, eq and levels throughout Look around at www.musicbooksplus.com re this subject... Cheers, -bg- www.lchb.ca |
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#11
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Re Rick's point re SM58 - mic help needed
**bg** wrote:
"rick hollett" wrote in message ... Sometimes a 58 works better due to the eq curve in the mic. Agreed. But, I find that wherever a 58 works, a Beyer M-500 tends to work better. It has that same enormous presence peak, but better top end than the 58 (even better than a 57) and a very smooth vocal sound. Really great on nasal singers. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#12
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mic help needed
Ty,
Thanks . I'll try the figure 8.Have you ever used the Gold Channel? I'll look uo thesst on the inetrnet. I really have no treatment in the room.I have totirn off the ac when recording.Occasionaly if a loud bike ( or kid with a $200 car with fart pipe) goes by, it's audible. I figured it woud be cheaper to build a vocal booth of sorts. I would really like to get some "space" on my vocals also. from what you say it's a function of the room ( rather than just reverb/delay after). If you don't mind, I'll email you pics of my room.maybe you can give me your oppinion. Right now we're finishing putting up shutters and sand bags for tommorrow's hurricane. Hope we don't need it. Bruce Yarock |
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#13
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mic help needed
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#14
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mic help needed
Bruce Yarock wrote:
Right now we're finishing putting up shutters and sand bags for tommorrow's hurricane. Hope we don't need it. Sorry to hear that Bruce, I'm sure we all wish you the best of luck. These days I'm glad to have re-settled in my small northern Louisiana hometown rather than New Orleans after my father died in '01. For you and those who may be interested, there's a good example of "louder = smaller" on my website at http://www.jeffjasper.com/downloads/...sboro07tag.mp3. There are 2 takes "loud announcer style" and then 2 takes "grungy announcer style." It's also a good example of "hard compression = smaller." The first two takes are compressed 12dB @ 6:1, 50ms attack, .5s release. The last two takes are compressed 4dB @ 6:1, 50ms attack, .5s release. Other disclaimers: Sennheiser MKH-416 @ 6" with foam pop filter into second-generation Symetrix 628 with above compression settings and +5dB @ 3.0kHz, .75 octave Q. Then digitally into MTU MicroSound @ 16-bit 44.1kHz, then normalized to -0.1dB and converted to LAME mono 192kHz .mp3 using dBPowerAmp. Yeah, I know, that's ALL extremely hot. It's not an audiophile approach, it's a client-thrilling approach. And they *are* thrilled. For local-run commercials, the producers do like the very forward mids and in-your-face compression. And yes, even tho it is noticeably more harsh, the video editors do like as hot a level as possible on the .mp3s. Right or wrong, the people I deal with have a *thing* for "full modulation." Only a couple of clients in the last 10 years have asked for unprocessed tracks. If I were mixing music, I'd have a much more audiophile approach. Unfortunately, unlike Ty, I haven't recorded music in probably 6 years now. That's life in The Swamp. Jeff Jasper www.jeffjasper.com |
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