From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.

IN FULL:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give information on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it. Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency
of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.

IN FULL:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities
of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or
moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of
thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and
the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give information
on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.

Robert,
Do you have a clue as to what these guys mean when then mean "small signal"
?

Solar flares probably disrupt their measurements... do you have a problem
with solar flares adversely affecting your hi-fi?

When Middius farts... you may be experiencing power ripple for days.
George...try to contain yourself as Robert is contemplating his hi-fi
performance,
and don't even think about lighting one off again...poor Robert will be
toast. His relays will oscillate indefinitely.


ScottW

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency
of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.

IN FULL:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities
of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or
moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of
thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and
the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give information
on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.


Now all you have to do is prove that this relay has an audible effect.
Do that and you actually score a point. Fail to do that and it's just more
piossing and whining, as usual.

"ScottW" wrote in message
news:IZm2f.3104$jw6.966@lakeread02...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic
field
of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency
of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.

IN FULL:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed
by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with
a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in
order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of
transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities
of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or
moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of
thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and
the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give
information
on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.

Robert,
Do you have a clue as to what these guys mean when then mean "small
signal"

Yes, Scott, I do.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it. Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


And you should have spent yours in school instead of court, fighting a
losing battle.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it. Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college, and the
like?

" wrote in message
link.net...

[snip]

Now all you have to do is prove that this relay has an audible effect.
Do that and you actually score a point. Fail to do that and it's just
more
piossing and whining, as usual.

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the flow of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect
small AC voltages can be observed with reed contacts and
with relays constructed according to the reed principle -
designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with a frequency of between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to
the inherent resonant frequency of the tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be
extremely significant on very low-level signal switching
circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in
the quagmire of unscientific thought and sloppy design.

The unscientific thought here would be assuming that if
something could happen (which is all the article says) it
did happen and adversely affected the performance of the
equipment.

The article says:

"A further noise variable that can..."

"However a typical level for standard contacts can..."

And it also says that:

"When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with a frequency of between 2 and 3kHz..."

The potential logical problem with the word "can" is
illustated by the following true statement:

"At almost any time a car's tire can spontaneously deflate
rapidly ("Blown tire") and throw the car out of control."

This is of course a true statement. However tires don't blow
and cars don't out of control every time we drive them.
These days blown tires are rare.

Just because something can happen, doesn't mean that it
always happens.

So, as usual Robert Morien is using bad logic to attack the
ABX RM-2 Compartor which I partially designed. His bad logic
involves trating an article about things that can happen, as
if it describes something that always happen.s

Why the indicated problem did not impact the ABX RM-2
comparator is hinted at in the article Robvert citted. That
article says:

"When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with a frequency of between 2 and 3kHz..."

In response to one of Robert's earlier attacks, I pointed
out that in accordance with Clark's JAES article about the
ABX comparator (which Robert should be familiar with) each
switch-over involved a complex sequence of contact openings
and closings.

Had Robert actually done his homework and become familiar
with the AES ABX article he would know the details of those
contact openings and closings. It trurns out that the last
step of the complex series of relay contact openings and
closing was in fact a set of contacts opening. Therefore,
problems with contacts closing were obviated by the fact
that thoughout the witchover operation there was always one
critical set of relay contacts that had been closed for
quite some time, that shorted out any and all signals
whether internal or external, and that opened, not closed
during the last step in the operation.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college, and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about your
incompetence?

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college, and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

[snip]

Now all you have to do is prove that this relay has an audible effect.
Do that and you actually score a point. Fail to do that and it's just
more
****ing and whining, as usual.

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.

That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted by
those in the field of audio research.

You are the one making the claim that the device is masking something or
somehow defective, you have the burden of proving that is so.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect
small AC voltages can be observed with reed contacts and
with relays constructed according to the reed principle -
designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with a frequency of between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to
the inherent resonant frequency of the tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be
extremely significant on very low-level signal switching
circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in
the quagmire of unscientific thought and sloppy design.

The unscientific thought here would be assuming that if something could
happen (which is all the article says) it did happen and adversely
affected the performance of the equipment.

The article says:

"A further noise variable that can..."

"However a typical level for standard contacts can..."

And it also says that:

"When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency
of between 2 and 3kHz..."

The potential logical problem with the word "can" is illustated by the
following true statement:

"At almost any time a car's tire can spontaneously deflate rapidly ("Blown
tire") and throw the car out of control."

This is of course a true statement. However tires don't blow and cars
don't out of control every time we drive them. These days blown tires are
rare.

Just because something can happen, doesn't mean that it always happens.

So, as usual Robert Morien is using bad logic to attack the ABX RM-2
Compartor which I partially designed. His bad logic involves trating an
article about things that can happen, as if it describes something that
always happen.s


Considering how much time you spend on the "can",
Mr ****, we will grant your expertise on that particular word.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.



how many Bobs can fit on the head of a pin?
or, inside a pinhead?

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news


No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push
it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.



how many Bobs can fit on the head of a pin?
or, inside a pinhead?

I think Mikey is hearing alot of voices right now.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.


Prove that an ABX box masks any differences.
Prove that ABX is not a valid protocol.

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news


No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology


He's BEEN talking about both.

He can prove nothing about either.

The ABX box doesn't color the sound or mask any differnces.
The protocol is widely used in everyday audio research precisely because it
does reveal differences, WHEN THEY EXIST.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push
it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.


Prove that an ABX box masks any differences.
Prove that ABX is not a valid protocol.

I am your conscience, Mikey. ABX is very bad. Very bad, Mikey.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the
flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology


He's BEEN talking about both.

He can prove nothing about either.

The ABX box doesn't color the sound or mask any differnces.

Yes it dies.
The protocol is widely used in everyday audio research precisely because
it
does reveal differences, WHEN THEY EXIST.

While ABX may be a useful tool for investigation of Hindi phonemes, it has
not become the primary tool for designers of high end equipment. Sighted
testing is commonly used.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency
of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.



So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.


IN FULL:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities
of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or
moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of
thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and
the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give information
on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small
AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with
a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be
extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push
it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.


Prove that an ABX box masks any differences.
Prove that ABX is not a valid protocol.

I am your conscience, Mikey. ABX is very bad. Very bad, Mikey.

That must be why it is the sthandard for subtle difference detection.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the
flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology


He's BEEN talking about both.

He can prove nothing about either.

The ABX box doesn't color the sound or mask any differnces.

Yes it dies.
The protocol is widely used in everyday audio research precisely because
it
does reveal differences, WHEN THEY EXIST.

While ABX may be a useful tool for investigation of Hindi phonemes, it has
not become the primary tool for designers of high end equipment. Sighted
testing is commonly used.

Only by those that aren't doing anything original, and are relying on
previous work by other actual engineers.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news
" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control the
flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted
by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology


He's BEEN talking about both.

He can prove nothing about either.

The ABX box doesn't color the sound or mask any differnces.

Yes it dies.
The protocol is widely used in everyday audio research precisely
because
it
does reveal differences, WHEN THEY EXIST.

While ABX may be a useful tool for investigation of Hindi phonemes, it
has
not become the primary tool for designers of high end equipment. Sighted
testing is commonly used.

Only by those that aren't doing anything original, and are relying on
previous work by other actual engineers.

Sorry, Mikey. This is not true.

" wrote in message
link.net...
[snip]

So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to understand
the wisdom of the Krell.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small
AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with
a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be
extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in
the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who push
it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend
college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh
about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.


Prove that an ABX box masks any differences.
Prove that ABX is not a valid protocol.

I am your conscience, Mikey. ABX is very bad. Very bad, Mikey.

That must be why it is the sthandard for subtle difference detection.

Sorry, Mikey, it is completely ignored by 20,000,000 consumers for subtle
detection of audio quality.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect
small
AC
voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed
according
to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the
magnetic
field of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation
with
a
frequency of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant
frequency
of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be
extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in
the
quagmire
of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.


Yeah, but who gives a ****? You aren't going to use his box
anyway.

Responsibility for this device weighs heavily on those who
push
it.
Arny
should have spent his time synthesizing flu viruses.


What is your educational level, Mikey? Do amphibians attend
college,
and
the
like?


Who are you really, sock puppet Morein?
Why do you feel the need to persecute people who tell the trtuh
about
your
incompetence?

I am your conscience, Mikey. I am inside your head.


Prove that an ABX box masks any differences.
Prove that ABX is not a valid protocol.

I am your conscience, Mikey. ABX is very bad. Very bad, Mikey.

That must be why it is the sthandard for subtle difference detection.

Sorry, Mikey, it is completely ignored by 20,000,000 consumers for subtle
detection of audio quality.

Then why don't you ignore it as wll?
Why does a reliable methodology for detecting difference bother you so much?
Why do you consistently lie that it is not a standard for audio research?
ITU BS 1116-1

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
news
" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news

No I don't. You advocate using a complicated machine to control
the
flow
of
audio. It is your burden to prove it works properly.


That burden has been met, that's why ABX is widely used and accepted
by
those in the field of audio research.


He is talking about a particular machine right now, not about
DBT methodology


He's BEEN talking about both.

He can prove nothing about either.

The ABX box doesn't color the sound or mask any differnces.

Yes it dies.
The protocol is widely used in everyday audio research precisely
because
it
does reveal differences, WHEN THEY EXIST.

While ABX may be a useful tool for investigation of Hindi phonemes, it
has
not become the primary tool for designers of high end equipment.
Sighted
testing is commonly used.

Only by those that aren't doing anything original, and are relying on
previous work by other actual engineers.

Sorry, Mikey. This is not true.

You're half right, you're sorry.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...
[snip]

So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the
relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to understand
the wisdom of the Krell.

I understand that they know what it takes to builkd an amp that will pass a
signal without audible distortion and then build way beyond that, thus
making equipment that while in no way audibly superior to other competently
designed amplifers, will last for a very long time. Nothing wrong with
that, I just don't see the need when normally constructed gear can last
15-20 years without the overbuilding.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...
[snip]

So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the
relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to
understand
the wisdom of the Krell.

I understand that they know what it takes to builkd an amp that will pass
a
signal without audible distortion and then build way beyond that, thus
making equipment that while in no way audibly superior to other
competently
designed amplifers, will last for a very long time. Nothing wrong with
that, I just don't see the need when normally constructed gear can last
15-20 years without the overbuilding.

Sorry, your small mind cannot absorb the wisdom of the Krell.

wrote:
"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
link.net...
[snip]

So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the
relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to understand
the wisdom of the Krell.

I understand that they know what it takes to builkd an amp that will pass a
signal without audible distortion and then build way beyond that, thus
making equipment that while in no way audibly superior to other competently
designed amplifers, will last for a very long time. Nothing wrong with
that, I just don't see the need when normally constructed gear can last
15-20 years without the overbuilding.


The Krells are unlikely to be champions of reliability. The high
dissipation means the transistors will probably last several years, but
because of Krell's refusal to make documentation generally available,
repair will likely require a lot of reverse engineering and likely as
not modification to use the available devices in 20 to 50 years. Class
B solid state amps probably will last longer without major rework, but
not sound quite as good.

"Robert Morein" said:

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to understand
the wisdom of the Krell.


Recently, I watched an episode of "Star Trek - Enterprise" where a
certain Krell, a Klingon general, wasn't so wise at all.

Or were you thinking about the "Forbidden Planet" Krell? :-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" said:

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to understand
the wisdom of the Krell.


Recently, I watched an episode of "Star Trek - Enterprise" where a
certain Krell, a Klingon general, wasn't so wise at all.

Or were you thinking about the "Forbidden Planet" Krell? :-)

--

One of the more interesting takes on Shakespeare's The Tempest, don't you
think?

Now, what do you think of the offer of proof?

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" said:

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to
understand
the wisdom of the Krell.


Recently, I watched an episode of "Star Trek - Enterprise" where a
certain Krell, a Klingon general, wasn't so wise at all.

Or were you thinking about the "Forbidden Planet" Krell? :-)

Forbidden Planet.

While it is true that mere humans cannot absorb the wisdom of the Krell,
Mikey's inferior mind could not absorb the wisdom of a Krell domestic pet.

Mikey, don't worry, be happy.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" said:

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. It is not possible for you to
understand
the wisdom of the Krell.


Recently, I watched an episode of "Star Trek - Enterprise" where a
certain Krell, a Klingon general, wasn't so wise at all.

Or were you thinking about the "Forbidden Planet" Krell? :-)

Forbidden Planet.

While it is true that mere humans cannot absorb the wisdom of the Krell,
Mikey's inferior mind could not absorb the wisdom of a Krell domestic pet.

Mikey, don't worry, be happy.


Rollover, Bobbie.

Have some Kibble.

" wrote in message
link.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

From http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mat/mat150.html

"A further noise variable that can specifically affect small AC voltages
can
be observed with reed contacts and with relays constructed according to
the
reed principle - designs with their contact springs in the magnetic field
of
the relay coil."
When the contact is closed there is a damped oscillation with a frequency
of
between 2 and 3kHz, corresponding to the inherent resonant frequency of
the
tongues.

"However a typical level for standard contacts can be extremely
significant
on very low-level signal switching circuits."

Once again, Arny and his amphibian sidekick are caught in the quagmire of
unscientific thought and sloppy design.



So you still can't prove that there is any AUDIBLE problem with the relay.
Is there anything you CAN prove?
I mean aside from the fact that you are an idiot.


IN FULL:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The choice of an electromechanical relay to be included in a low-level
signal circuit can be a crucial factor in determining the levels of
electrical noise within an application.

In basic terms, the electromechanical relay is a comparatively simple
component and when included in an application, it is somewhat governed by
its inherent operating characteristics.

When small DC or AC voltages are switched with electromechanical relays,
noise can be generated, causing possible corruption of the signals to be
switched due to heating and material effects.

Specific constructional techniques during the circuit design, along with
a
careful selection of materials by manufacturers, can be employed in order
for such noise generation to be significantly lowered, if not completely
eliminated.

Electrical noise levels occur because of the unavoidability of transition
points between materials along the paths travelled by the signal.

The transition points are always a compromise between the practicalities
of
the relay design, compared against an ideal electrical characteristic.

This is due to manufacturing requirements that dictate that the metal
connections are routed into the interior of the relay via sealed or
moulded
glass entry points moulded into the metal casing.

To prevent mechanical stress between the glass insulation and the PIN
passing through it when the temperature changes, the coefficients of
thermal
expansion of the two materials must be matched.

Unfortunately, this results in the use of contact materials that produce
noise voltages if heated.

The effective temperature differences largely depend on temperature
distribution within the relay and thereby on the relay construction and
the
geometry of the connections.

Moreover, the manufacturers' datasheets only very rarely give information
on
the thermo electromotive force of relays.




Desperation time for the audiophools, now they're forging posts in order to
deceive.

The simple facts are these:

Wire is wire.
Amplifiers contribute nothing to imaging, that's a funtion of teh recording
and the speakers.

ABX is the accepted standard for audio research into subtle differences.

It is a simple matter thse days to build auio equipment that is sonically
neutral, that is neither adds nor subtracts from the input signal.

An ABX box does not mask any differences.

Vinyl LP's are an iferior medium and have several orders of magnitude more
distortion than CD's, which is not to say that there are not some really
awfull sounding CD's.

Global feedback is not something that makes amps inferior, but if to much is
used it will affect the way an amp clips.

Stereophile has some of the most incredibly idiotic and hearing impaired
reviewers on the planet working for them and they frequently endorse snake
oil.

In article .net,
" wrote:

snip

Vinyl LP's are an iferior medium and have several orders of magnitude more
distortion than CD's snip

Yeah, but to many ears, they can sound so much better than most CDs. Go
figure.

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article .net,
" wrote:

snip

Vinyl LP's are an iferior medium and have several orders of magnitude
more
distortion than CD's snip

Yeah, but to many ears, they can sound so much better than most CDs. Go
figure.

Stranger things have been known to happen.
How else do you explain SET amps?

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
.net,
" wrote:

snip

Vinyl LP's are an iferior medium and have several orders
of magnitude more distortion than CD's snip

Yeah, but to many ears, they can sound so much better
than most CDs. Go figure.

OK, so sentimentality is affecting your perceptions.