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Surge Protectors
Hi, I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? Thanks, nYcTracks -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.giantcompany.com |
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#2
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On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:35:15 GMT, "nYcTracks"
wrote: I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? You *really* want to start with a Google search on this newsgroup on this topic. There's been a lot of excellent discussion, even if only including the previous 18 months. One perhaps surprising finding is that real protection requires a systemic approach. Just like eveything else real in the world. Some big, slow stuff, and some small, fast stuff. Plus grounding, plus trapping. Like that. Good fortune, Chris Hornbeck |
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#3
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nYcTracks wrote: Hi, I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? The best ones, IMHO, are the ones that mount in your service panel. They use two circuit-breaker spaces and attach to both busses of the 220V service. In every building I've installed them in, we never, ever lost any gear due to power or lightning issues. http://tinyurl.com/9czwf http://tinyurl.com/cjkrk g2 |
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#4
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"nYcTracks" wrote in message
news:7wqYe.155564$084.149799@attbi_s22 I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Surge protectors for your whole house aren't that costly, and form an effective first line of defense that may be all you need. I have a friend who has one of those big houses on a 10 acre plot in the country. He had some near strikes that took out various electronic gear and appliances. He had an electrician install a surge protector on the electrical entrance to his house, and that was the end of lightning storm damage for him. This was about 10 years ago. |
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#7
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In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"nYcTracks" wrote in message news:7wqYe.155564$084.149799@attbi_s22 I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Surge protectors for your whole house aren't that costly, and form an effective first line of defense that may be all you need. I have a friend who has one of those big houses on a 10 acre plot in the country. He had some near strikes that took out various electronic gear and appliances. He had an electrician install a surge protector on the electrical entrance to his house, and that was the end of lightning storm damage for him. This was about 10 years ago. My home electrical provider offers this at a cost of about $5 a month. Pretty much a rip off, when you could install it and save about $60 a year. Some well under $100 for the module. greg |
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#8
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nYcTracks wrote:
I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Call a lightning protection guy. Get real arrestors installed on your service entry and make sure the building ground is seriously up to snuff. Just because it meets code doesn't mean it's good enough. Make sure all the cabling going into and out of the building is laid out properly with loops and drip lines to act as inductors. Don't forget the telephone lines, cable TV, and anything else coming in or out. Citel makes some nice line protection hardware for coax and datacom applications, but again if your ground is no good and the cables are not laid out properly, they will not work. THEN you can think about putting MOV/gas tube boxes on your equipment. These devices rely entirely on the building ground. If the building ground is substandard, they will not work. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#11
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"GregS" wrote in message
One thing I like about local surge suppressors, they help protect equipment from other equipment. Whole-house protectors have similar or even greater benefits. If power fails, the feedback from large transformers into the next outlet is possible. Whole-house protectors protect the whole houseful of equipment, whether it has local surge supression or not. Having it close by is helpfull. Not having it is not helpful at all, and not having it is quite clearly a widespread situation if you rely on local surge supressors. |
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#12
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GregS wrote: Surge protectors for your whole house aren't that costly, and form an effective first line of defense that may be all you need. My home electrical provider offers this at a cost of about $5 a month. Pretty much a rip off, when you could install it and save about $60 a year. Some well under $100 for the module. Yeah, but when something is damaged by a power surge (including the surge protector) who're you gonna call? Tripp-Lite (and maybe some others) offer something like insurance if your equipment is damaged by a power surge when connected through their devices, but the fine print is pretty restrictive. What does the utility company offer other than the hardware For $5/month? I'll bet they have a more solid insurance policy. It might be worth it. |
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#13
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com GregS wrote: Surge protectors for your whole house aren't that costly, and form an effective first line of defense that may be all you need. My home electrical provider offers this at a cost of about $5 a month. Pretty much a rip off, when you could install it and save about $60 a year. Some well under $100 for the module. Yeah, but when something is damaged by a power surge (including the surge protector) who're you gonna call? Your insurance guy? Tripp-Lite (and maybe some others) offer something like insurance if your equipment is damaged by a power surge when connected through their devices, but the fine print is pretty restrictive. Also, why buy semi-effective hardware to obtain highly restrictive insurance? ;-) |
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#14
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On 22 Sep 2005 13:52:04 -0700, "Mike Rivers"
wrote: GregS wrote: My home electrical provider offers this at a cost of about $5 a month. Pretty much a rip off, when you could install it and save about $60 a year. Some well under $100 for the module. Yeah, but when something is damaged by a power surge (including the surge protector) who're you gonna call? Tripp-Lite (and maybe some others) offer something like insurance if your equipment is damaged by a power surge when connected through their devices, but the fine print is pretty restrictive. What does the utility company offer other than the hardware For $5/month? I'll bet they have a more solid insurance policy. It might be worth it. My local electrical provider (CL&P) has a few provisos in the guarantee and, after several discussions with them, decided to go with (1) a whole-house protector installed by my electrician, (2) local protection/UPS for the valuable electronics and (3) copies of the invoices and pictures of said electronics, pre-emptively placed in the files of my insurance agent. Kal |
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#15
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GregS wrote:
In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: nYcTracks wrote: I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Get real arrestors installed on your service entry and make sure the building ground is seriously up to snuff. One thing I like about local surge suppressors, they help protect equipment from other equipment. If power fails, the feedback from large transformers into the next outlet is possible. Having it close by is helpful. Like Scott said, first make sure your building entrance is protected. This is your first and best line of defense against external events like lightning. For local protection, I prefer (real) power conditioners, which protect against lower voltage events and help with harmonic distortion caused by nearby nonlinear loads. Check eBay for used Oneac or similar units (which essentially do not wear out.) They usually sell for less than 10 cents on the dollar -- note that shipping costs are often equal to the purchase price, and beware of shoddy packing jobs, especially on the larger models. |
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#16
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Check out:
http://www.surgex.com/ for some (biased) opinion on technologies. On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:35:15 GMT, "nYcTracks" wrote: Hi, I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? Thanks, nYcTracks -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.giantcompany.com |
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#17
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Willie K. Yee, MD wrote:
Check out: http://www.surgex.com/ for some (biased) opinion on technologies. My experience testing the Surgex gear wasn't very good, to be honest. But the general idea isn't a bad one, even if there is a lot of hype associated with it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#18
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"nYcTracks" wrote ...
I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? I wouldn't trust most "surge protectors" under those conditions. I'd seriously consider UPS units for real isolation from line sags and faults. IMHO, a cheap UPS offers more protection than an expensive surge protector (assuming a REALLY EFFECTIVE, no-hype "surge protector" even exists.) |
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#19
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Richard Crowley wrote:
"nYcTracks" wrote ... I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? I wouldn't trust most "surge protectors" under those conditions. I'd seriously consider UPS units for real isolation from line sags and faults. IMHO, a cheap UPS offers more protection than an expensive surge protector (assuming a REALLY EFFECTIVE, no-hype "surge protector" even exists.) Not really. You'd be surprised at just how little protection stuff is in the typical standby UPS systems... and you're still connected directly to the AC line until the power goes out and the relay cuts you over. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#20
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In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message One thing I like about local surge suppressors, they help protect equipment from other equipment. Whole-house protectors have similar or even greater benefits. If power fails, the feedback from large transformers into the next outlet is possible. Whole-house protectors protect the whole houseful of equipment, whether it has local surge supression or not. Having it close by is helpfull. Not having it is not helpful at all, and not having it is quite clearly a widespread situation if you rely on local surge supressors. I think the whole house units should be there, in place, by the electric company for free. There are really very good. I was pointing out, that a spike from equipment on the same strip goes to the next piece of equipment long before it gets a chance to get back to the breaker box. A standard Tripplite surpressor has all the basic things that should be there. The big RF coils also slow down the spikes so the MOV's work better. There is outlet to oulet decoupling, so it does things that a central surge protector doesn't. I liked the old metal boxes, but I don't know if they still sell them. Unfortunately with all these supressors, ground noise will increase! greg |
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#21
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"GregS" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "GregS" wrote in message One thing I like about local surge suppressors, they help protect equipment from other equipment. Whole-house protectors have similar or even greater benefits. If power fails, the feedback from large transformers into the next outlet is possible. Whole-house protectors protect the whole houseful of equipment, whether it has local surge supression or not. Having it close by is helpfull. Not having it is not helpful at all, and not having it is quite clearly a widespread situation if you rely on local surge supressors. I think the whole house units should be there, in place, by the electric company for free. They are really very good. The really good part I agree with. I don't know about the responsibility of the electric company to provide them. Around here the phone company puts some kind of surge supression on their lines, and maybe the electric company should follow suit. OTOH, they are pretty much a waste in dense urban contexts. I was pointing out, that a spike from equipment on the same strip goes to the next piece of equipment long before it gets a chance to get back to the breaker box. The power line distance from appliance to appliance within a house is minimally at about 12 feet, the length of two standard 6' power cords. The power line distance from a point to the power entrance is maximally about 100 feet, unless your house is relatively large or laid out funny. Impulses probably travel down power lines in a house at maybe 0.6 the speed of light or 589,248,000 feet per second. The path length difference is about 90 feet. The time delay involved is less than 200 nanoseconds. A standard Tripplite surpressor has all the basic things that should be there. I'll agree with that because you say so. The big RF coils also slow down the spikes so the MOV's work better. It's true that MOVs respond in about 100 nanoseconds, but by most accounts thats a bit of overkill. A 200 nanosecond spike can't have much energy in it unless its peak voltage is astronomical. In 200 nanoseconds, a typical inductive kick from a power transformer (your earlier example) hasn't built up very far... |
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#22
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "GregS" wrote in message The big RF coils also slow down the spikes so the MOV's work better. It's true that MOVs respond in about 100 nanoseconds, but by most accounts thats a bit of overkill. A 200 nanosecond spike can't have much energy in it unless its peak voltage is astronomical. In 200 nanoseconds, a typical inductive kick from a power transformer (your earlier example) hasn't built up very far... Right, but the induced lightning is what is really scary, and that is a very fast risetime pulse that really does behave like RF. Agreed. Most of the solutions to dealing with that have to do with making low-pass filters (like those big chokes, or even a few wraps of the service entry cable), in order to convince the spike either to take a different path to ground or to smooth it out so that MOVs and gas tubes can effectively clamp it. Interestingly enough, GE (the origional MOV developers) argue that MOV's have enough inherent capacitance to handle *any* quick risetime signal. You need to be thinking about RF, not about DC. If you go back to the post that started this portion of the discussion, we were talking about transients that are likely to be generated inside the house, not lightening. Transients from other standard electrical appliances, audio or otherwise are the context. We've also agreed that for openers, whole-house surge supression should be installed wherever damage from external surges sources like lightening is an issue. While this subthread hasn't exactly covered the issue of protecting structures from lightening that strikes them, (as opposed to strikes on or near a power line) I think that Scott you've posted some agreeable advice about that as well. |
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#23
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Arny Krueger wrote:
If you go back to the post that started this portion of the discussion, we were talking about transients that are likely to be generated inside the house, not lightening. Transients from other standard electrical appliances, audio or otherwise are the context. Lightning transients can be generated inside the house! That is the interesting thing about all this. You get a nearby lightning hit, and you get stuff induced into your internal wiring.... remember this stuff is acting like RF and your interior wiring will act as an antenna. Stuff like motor and switching transients is pretty minor, because most of that stuff is well below the clamp voltage anyway. Those problems are best solved with just low-pass filtering. In industrial facilities with big single-phase motors, arc welders, and induction heating systems, that could be different. (But again a lot of that stuff is high enough risetime that it acts like RF). We've also agreed that for openers, whole-house surge supression should be installed wherever damage from external surges sources like lightening is an issue. Absolutely, BUT don't think that whole-house suppression is all that you need to protect you from this stuff. While this subthread hasn't exactly covered the issue of protecting structures from lightening that strikes them, (as opposed to strikes on or near a power line) I think that Scott you've posted some agreeable advice about that as well. Hire Cortana to come out and look at the building. Or ask your insurance company to get an expert over... they will probably pick up the tab. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#24
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote: I wouldn't trust most "surge protectors" under those conditions. I'd seriously consider UPS units for real isolation from line sags and faults. IMHO, a cheap UPS offers more protection than an expensive surge protector (assuming a REALLY EFFECTIVE, no-hype "surge protector" even exists.) Not really. You'd be surprised at just how little protection stuff is in the typical standby UPS systems... and you're still connected directly to the AC line until the power goes out and the relay cuts you over. Put a 'scope on the output of your UPS sometime when it is running on batteries. Check both normal and common-mode noise if you can. Be afraid. |
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#25
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GregS wrote:
A standard Tripplite surpressor has all the basic things that should be there. The big RF coils also slow down the spikes so the MOV's work better. There is outlet to oulet decoupling, so it does things that a central surge protector doesn't. Those "big RF coils" also have the effect of increasing the source impedance of your power line as seen by the connected equipment. This is a bad thing, particularly with switching supplies. In order to really filter the incoming power on a 60 Hz line, you need HUGE inductors or transformers. Think tens of pounds of iron and copper. |
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#26
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote: we were talking about transients that are likely to be generated inside the house, not lightening. Transients from other standard electrical appliances, audio or otherwise are the context. Stuff like motor and switching transients is pretty minor, because most of that stuff is well below the clamp voltage anyway. Non power-factor corrected switchmode power supplies propagate nasty current spikes back into the powerline. This is very easy to see with a 'scope. Those problems are best solved with just low-pass filtering. Agreed, and doing so requires a LARGE inductor or transformer. |
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#27
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Kurt Albershardt wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: Richard Crowley wrote: I wouldn't trust most "surge protectors" under those conditions. I'd seriously consider UPS units for real isolation from line sags and faults. IMHO, a cheap UPS offers more protection than an expensive surge protector (assuming a REALLY EFFECTIVE, no-hype "surge protector" even exists.) Not really. You'd be surprised at just how little protection stuff is in the typical standby UPS systems... and you're still connected directly to the AC line until the power goes out and the relay cuts you over. Put a 'scope on the output of your UPS sometime when it is running on batteries. Check both normal and common-mode noise if you can. Be afraid. Sure, but who cares about that? Since the standby UPS only cuts on the inverter when the power is lost, it can produce really crappy output and be fine, since all you really need it for is to shut the computer system down cleanly. Sure, it produces lots of RFI and throws trash into everthing, but when the power goes out you have more things to worry about than the fact that your tracking session is interrupted. If you need it for more... maybe you need to be using an online unit with a sine wave inverter. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#28
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Kurt Albershardt wrote:
Those "big RF coils" also have the effect of increasing the source impedance of your power line as seen by the connected equipment. This is a bad thing, particularly with switching supplies. In order to really filter the incoming power on a 60 Hz line, you need HUGE inductors Wouldn't induced current from lightning be mostly common mode? Then you could use a common mode inductor that isn't magnetized by the AC current draw, and put you MOVs beween live-ground and neutral-ground. -- Anahata -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827 |
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#29
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Thanks all for your insights.
nYcTracks -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.giantcompany.com "nYcTracks" wrote in message news:7wqYe.155564$084.149799@attbi_s22... Hi, I'm looking for three surge protectors to protect my home studio. I live in an area that produces frequent violent lightning storms. Please help me to identify quality brands and models to purchase? Thanks, nYcTracks -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.giantcompany.com |
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