trotsky said:

For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them systematically that
there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.

Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting people?
Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their opinions
directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?

George M. Middius a écrit :


trotsky said:


For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them systematically that
there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.


Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting people?
Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their opinions
directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?


When Schizo-George writes about *"voices"* he perfectly knows what he
speaks about !
LOL !

--
Lionel J. M. Chapuis
Unemployed Clown

(signed this way because of pending libel suit against Krueger scheduled
to begin on 9/20/03 per Mr. Wheeler - and the need to possibly provide
supportive documentary evidence that Mr. George M. Middius' daily
incitement to hatred, suicide, slandering, insults, murder is the real
guilty of Mr.Wheeler's grievances.)

George M. Middius wrote:


trotsky said:


For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them systematically that
there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.


Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting people?
Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their opinions
directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?




That looks like three questions. Which was the question you were trying
to ask?

trotsky said:

Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting people?
Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their opinions
directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?

That looks like three questions. Which was the question you were trying
to ask?

Why haven't you been diagnosed and treated yet?

"Lionel" lionel{dot}chapuis{at}free{dot}fr wrote in message
...
trotsky a écrit :
Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

George M. Middius wrote:


trotsky said:



For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them systematically

that

there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.


Clumsy. Let's improve it a little.
"I am frequently challenged by aspiring writers on Usenet, but I
systematically demonstrate my verbal superiority."


Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting
people?
Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their
opinions
directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?

That looks like three questions. Which was the question you were
trying
to ask?


Roadkill needs a little help with the keyboard again. Correctly
phrased, it
would be
"Your text asks three questions. Which question did you intend?"



Bob Morion, your brain needs a tune-up. I build speakers because I know
what sounds good.

No, you don't. You are TRYING because you need the money, and you are
failing because of a lack of skill, a sense of responsibility, and a
generally overinflated opinion of yourself.

You write screenplays for what reason? I seem to run
into various fellows who want to be writers, and yet have rhetoric that
is slightly less interesting than watching paint dry. Why is this?

Trotsky, it's always interesting to watch the way a fool walks, the way a
fool talks, and the things a fool hawks. These are the things I find
interesting about you.

Bob Morein a écrit :

Trotsky, it's always interesting to watch the way a fool walks, the way a
fool talks, and the things a fool hawks. These are the things I find
interesting about you.



From you to me Bob, if the guy that we can see working on the web site
pictures is Mr. Trotsky I would say that his opinion is not the only
thing which is overinflated !

--
Lionel J. M. Chapuis
Unemployed Clown

(signed this way because of pending libel suit against Krueger scheduled
to begin on 9/20/03 per Mr. Wheeler - and the need to possibly provide
supportive documentary evidence that Mr. George M. Middius' daily
incitement to hatred, suicide, slandering, insults, murder is the real
guilty of Mr.Wheeler's grievances.)

Bob Morein wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
...

trotsky a écrit :

Bob Morein wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
hlink.net...


George M. Middius wrote:



trotsky said:




For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them systematically

that


there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.


Clumsy. Let's improve it a little.
"I am frequently challenged by aspiring writers on Usenet, but I
systematically demonstrate my verbal superiority."


Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting

people?

Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their

opinions

directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?

That looks like three questions. Which was the question you were

trying

to ask?


Roadkill needs a little help with the keyboard again. Correctly
phrased, it
would be
"Your text asks three questions. Which question did you intend?"



Bob Morion, your brain needs a tune-up. I build speakers because I know
what sounds good.


No, you don't. You are TRYING because you need the money, and you are
failing because of a lack of skill, a sense of responsibility, and a
generally overinflated opinion of yourself.

You write screenplays for what reason? I seem to run

into various fellows who want to be writers, and yet have rhetoric that
is slightly less interesting than watching paint dry. Why is this?


Trotsky, it's always interesting to watch the way a fool walks, the way a
fool talks, and the things a fool hawks. These are the things I find
interesting about you.


Bob, you're like a broken record--you can discuss me and my work, but
you lack the balls and self awareness to discuss what you do. Come back
when you grow up, okay?

"trotsky" wrote in message
news
Bob Morein wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
...

trotsky a écrit :

Bob Morein wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
hlink.net...


George M. Middius wrote:



trotsky said:




For some reason, I keep coming up
against wannabe writers here on Usenet and show them
systematically

that


there's no aspect of the use of words they can best me with.


Clumsy. Let's improve it a little.
"I am frequently challenged by aspiring writers on Usenet, but I
systematically demonstrate my verbal superiority."


Just for the sake of informing anybody who doesn't know you, who
exactly is keeping score on these games where you keep besting

people?

Is there a panel of judges out in cyberspace who render their

opinions

directly unto you? Or do the voices originate from somewhere else?

That looks like three questions. Which was the question you were

trying

to ask?


Roadkill needs a little help with the keyboard again. Correctly
phrased, it
would be
"Your text asks three questions. Which question did you intend?"



Bob Morion, your brain needs a tune-up. I build speakers because I
know
what sounds good.


No, you don't. You are TRYING because you need the money, and you are
failing because of a lack of skill, a sense of responsibility, and a
generally overinflated opinion of yourself.

You write screenplays for what reason? I seem to run

into various fellows who want to be writers, and yet have rhetoric
that
is slightly less interesting than watching paint dry. Why is this?


Trotsky, it's always interesting to watch the way a fool walks, the way
a
fool talks, and the things a fool hawks. These are the things I find
interesting about you.


Bob, you're like a broken record--you can discuss me and my work, but
you lack the balls and self awareness to discuss what you do. Come back
when you grow up, okay?

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made. They are
different than 99% of all speakers made.

The question of course is how they stand up to the remaining 5% and
whether or not it matters whether his speakers are different than the
other 99%.

Bob, you need to take deep breath and get out of the apartment...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the
great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made.

They are? Are you serious? What is the universe of discourse here? Are you
including transistor radio speakers driven by 100mw? Dashboard enunciators?
The ubiquitous Panasonic answering machine?

If Best Buy shelf systems are included, we still have to be careful. We
don't know whether Greg's speakers have a horrendous respons anomaly which
deprives them of the benefit that should accrue from better drivers. A bad
cook can spoil any food.
Beware of Radio Shack Linaeums, as well. The Linaeum was one helluva good
tweeter. Greg's woofers are probably better than Radio Shack's, but he's
flying blind. Misalignment of a bass reflex system is devastating to the
sound, regardless of who/what drivers are used.

In the particular quality which results from proper tuning, Greg is very
much at a disadvantage. By his own admission, he made exactly one box, and
tried exactly one crossover, and played only with the stuffing. This is a
highly atypical design path, perhaps unique, in the annals of speakers
marketed to audiophiles.

We can't assume that Greg's speakers are better than some of the cheap stuff
available -- the new little Kefs, the NHT Super Zeros, or whatever
represents that class today. While it's true that the large volume makers
count every scrap of wire, they usually have the benefit of Harmon
International's speaker lab, with turntable and MLSSA, and the Canadians
have their counterpart. Other small makers have their own woodshops and
spend months turning out cabinets with minor variations. This, the tuning
procedure, has been ridiculed by Greg as unnecessary to a person as "lucky"
as him.

Even a Strad out of tune can't play.



They are
different than 99% of all speakers made.

The question of course is how they stand up to the remaining 5% and
whether or not it matters whether his speakers are different than the
other 99%.

Bob, you need to take deep breath and get out of the apartment...

Just jogged 4 miles, and I'm comfortably back in my 3000 sq ft digs.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the
great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made. They are
different than 99% of all speakers made.

The question of course is how they stand up to the remaining 5% and
whether or not it matters whether his speakers are different than the
other 99%.

Bob, you need to take deep breath and get out of the apartment...
\
Actually, what he needs is to listen to a pair of Jupiters before he
pronounces judgement.




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the
great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made. They are
different than 99% of all speakers made.

The question of course is how they stand up to the remaining 5% and
whether or not it matters whether his speakers are different than the
other 99%.

Bob, you need to take deep breath and get out of the apartment...
\
Actually, what he needs is to listen to a pair of Jupiters before he
pronounces judgement.

I doubt that Trotsky would ship them to me.
However, if he gets them to any dealer in Manhattan, I'll go listen.
It's 99 miles from my residence, but I'll make the trip.
The rest is up to Trotsky.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:03:04 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the
great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made.

They are? Are you serious? What is the universe of discourse here? Are
you
including transistor radio speakers driven by 100mw? Dashboard
enunciators?
The ubiquitous Panasonic answering machine?

Why, yes I am.

What part of "all speakers made" do you not understand?

If Best Buy shelf systems are included, we still have to be careful.

No we don't. Well, at least *I* don't.

Of course not. You don't have to be careful. I'm impressed.


We don't know whether Greg's speakers have a horrendous respons anomaly
which
deprives them of the benefit that should accrue from better drivers.

"We" might not, but "I* do. They are sitting in my living room as we
speak. If you'llgo back and reread what I said, you'llrealize that I'm
saying that there is no "horrendous response anomaly" present in his
speakers.

I won't assume you're prejudiced, but you are just one person.
You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.
Unfortunately, I know nothing about your reputation as a reliable observer
or reporter.
If you report that the speakers are good, I will not discount your
observation, but neither will I take it as settled that your observations
are correct, unless they are confirmed multiple times by independent
observers.


A bad cook can spoil any food.
Beware of Radio Shack Linaeums, as well. The Linaeum was one helluva good
tweeter. Greg's woofers are probably better than Radio Shack's, but he's
flying blind. Misalignment of a bass reflex system is devastating to the
sound, regardless of who/what drivers are used.

Well, you can fly blind all you want to. I've got his speakers in
house.

I won't assume you're prejudiced, but you are just one person.
You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.
Unfortunately, I know nothing about your reputation as a reliable observer
or reporter.
If you report that the speakers are good, I will not discount your
observation, but neither will I take it as settled that your observations
are correct, unless they are confirmed multiple times by independent
observers.


Make up whatever scenarios make you feel comfortable, Bob.

In the particular quality which results from proper tuning, Greg is very
much at a disadvantage. By his own admission, he made exactly one box,
and
tried exactly one crossover, and played only with the stuffing. This is a
highly atypical design path, perhaps unique, in the annals of speakers
marketed to audiophiles.

I'll have something to say about the stufing later. In the meantime,
you can continue to play games all you want. But that's all they are
and I think it undermines the razor-thin credibility that you attempt
to maintain here with your pseudo-engineer crap. Me? I'll talk about
things I've actually heard.

That's fine with me. I can't accept your opinion as definitive, but I
definitely will consider it in combination with the opinions of others.



We can't assume that Greg's speakers are better than some of the cheap
stuff
available --

You're right, "we" ca'nt. That's because you haven't heard them. *I*
on the other hand, *can* make some "assumptions" because I have them
in house.

the new little Kefs, the NHT Super Zeros, or whatever
represents that class today.

When I hear those speakers, I'll comment on them as well.

While it's true that the large volume makers
count every scrap of wire, they usually have the benefit of Harmon
International's speaker lab, with turntable and MLSSA, and the Canadians
have their counterpart. Other small makers have their own woodshops and
spend months turning out cabinets with minor variations. This, the tuning
procedure, has been ridiculed by Greg as unnecessary to a person as
"lucky"
as him.

It doesn't matter about the process, only the result.
What do you think the odds are? Do you feel that Trotsky's random approach
has a reasonable chance of bearing succulent fruit?


Even a Strad out of tune can't play.

Oh, but you're wrong. An accomplished violinist can compensate. They
do it all the time with intonation variations.

Minor variations, yes. Not Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.

You lose.

Again.

They are
different than 99% of all speakers made.

The question of course is how they stand up to the remaining 5% and
whether or not it matters whether his speakers are different than the
other 99%.

Bob, you need to take deep breath and get out of the apartment...

Just jogged 4 miles, and I'm comfortably back in my 3000 sq ft digs.

And you didn't get mugged?

Not in Dresher. Crimes are almost unheard of.


PS, that's a prety small warehouse you live in.

I suggest you check out the following neighborhood/address:
1570 Arran Way
Dresher, PA
19025
and you'll understand why I have four main systems in my 3000 square foot
house.
A relief map will give you an idea of my jogging course; 2 miles per lap of
rolling terrain, with two steep hills.

I'm sorry I've lost, but I'm very comfortable .

Bob Morein wrote:


We can't assume that Greg's speakers are better than some of the cheap
stuff
available -- the new little Kefs, the NHT Super Zeros, or whatever
represents that class today. While it's true that the large volume makers
count every scrap of wire, they usually have the benefit of Harmon
International's speaker lab, with turntable and MLSSA, and the Canadians
have their counterpart. Other small makers have their own woodshops and
spend months turning out cabinets with minor variations. This, the tuning
procedure, has been ridiculed by Greg as unnecessary to a person as
"lucky"
as him.



Your audio history is a little weak, Bob Morion. Paradigm used to brag
about the use of DBTs at the National Research Center of Canada, but for
some reason they don't do that anymore. In fact, all they do is rely on
one guy, Scott Bagby, who really is a good desiger. Except Paradigm
cuts all the usual corners that one has to do to mass produce a speaker,
and the result is what it is.

The truth is, common sense goes a long way in making a good sounding
speaker. I see a lot of gimmicks and bad ideas in speaker manufacture,
but not a lot of common sense. Regardless, this is all neither here nor
there, because if you can't broach my Quentin Tarantino analogy, Bob
Morion, your opinion in this matter is useless.

You remind me of a bit in Bukowski's first novel, "Post Office", where a
coworker is needling him about wanting to write a novel, as if there was
some special process involved. "GO TO A SMALL ROOM AND WRITE," he tells
him. Some people were just put on this earth to be lame, I guess. Am I
getting warm, Bob?

Bobo tries his own version of the "debating trade".

I've got his speakers in house.

I won't assume you're prejudiced, but you are just one person.
You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his speakers.
Unfortunately, I know nothing about your reputation as a reliable observer
or reporter.
If you report that the speakers are good, I will not discount your
observation, but neither will I take it as settled that your observations
are correct, unless they are confirmed multiple times by independent
observers.

Too bad you know so little about the backgrounds of the people you
choose to argue with.

One thing I can guarantee, as would anybody else who knows dave's
history with trots: If the speakers suck, we'll hear about it. And if
they don't suck, doesn't that mean that your mighty winding about
"ripoffs" and "fraud" and all that is just you transferring your
dislike for Gregipus to his enterprise?

As an aside, I'll grant that certain of trotsky's comments in the past
couple weeks have indicated he may be experiencing a fusion of his
persona with the Jupiter business. By that I mean he seems to believe
any criticism of his online behavior is a criticism of his speaker
enterprise. Of course, one can't be sure about such a conclusion given
the tenuousness of his overall grip on reality.

trotsky said:

Paradigm cuts all the usual corners that one has to do

if you can't broach my Quentin Tarantino analogy

Letter-perfect! Letter-mother****ing-stainless-steel-perfect!

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Bobo tries his own version of the "debating trade".

I've got his speakers in house.

I won't assume you're prejudiced, but you are just one person.
You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.
Unfortunately, I know nothing about your reputation as a reliable
observer
or reporter.
If you report that the speakers are good, I will not discount your
observation, but neither will I take it as settled that your
observations
are correct, unless they are confirmed multiple times by independent
observers.

Too bad you know so little about the backgrounds of the people you
choose to argue with.

One thing I can guarantee, as would anybody else who knows dave's
history with trots: If the speakers suck, we'll hear about it.

That's good news. It enhances Dave's credibility.

And if
they don't suck, doesn't that mean that your mighty winding about
"ripoffs" and "fraud" and all that is just you transferring your
dislike for Gregipus to his enterprise?

There is no question that by prejudging Greg's speakers, I am playing the
odds, which I believe to be very long against Trotsky. That said, Dave is
only one observer. It is somewhat characteristic of hifi aficionados to be
fond of novelty. If Dave likes the speakers, one cannot know for sure how
much of that is from surprise that they are listenable.

Consider the hypothetical outcome: The speakers are listenable, but are
surpassed by all or the the vast majority of speakers which sell for half
the price of the Jupiters, or more.

I don't believe that such an outcome would validate Trotsky's enterprise.
Nor do I believe that a superior cabinet finish should compensate for sonic
deficiency. The decision of the buyer is binary: buy Trotsky's speakers, or
buy something else. If Trotsky's speakers do not equal or surpass, they
should not be considered for purchase. In that case, my criticism of Trotsky
would stand.

If some multiple number of observers were to report listening experiences of
a nature that suggest that the speakers do surpass, and the majority of the
listeners were credible, then I would have to recant.

How do I judge credibility? There are three characteristics: a good ear, the
ability to encompass tastes other than one's own, and amiability. It is
highly unlikely that anyone familiar with this debate would trust my
judgement, because I am known in this group to be a contentious person. You,
Dave, I, and many other people share this characteristic, which robs us of
credibility. There are other individuals, who by their very lack of
contentiousness, rarely or never appear in this group. If they also possess
excellent listening skills, they are prospectively excellent judges.


As an aside, I'll grant that certain of trotsky's comments in the past
couple weeks have indicated he may be experiencing a fusion of his
persona with the Jupiter business. By that I mean he seems to believe
any criticism of his online behavior is a criticism of his speaker
enterprise. Of course, one can't be sure about such a conclusion given
the tenuousness of his overall grip on reality.

Trotsky is, by the very nature of his personality, a poor critic. He is
highly prejudicial in his own favor, believes that his listening skills
excel, and is not amiable. Many famous personalities in the speaker business
share this characteristic. However, they tend to have developed skills of
judgment that are less centric to their personalities in their previous
employment. For example, a recording engineer may be very prideful of his
listening ability, but from the perspective of what OTHER people will hear
in a recording. Thus, he has developed an objective sense of the anticipated
subjective experiences of others. Trotsky has never had the rigor of this
training, and he does not natively possess the ability.

As for the debating trade, I don't like it. You may consider the above to be
a backpeddle from my rant. I've already indicated the exquisiste pleasure
of humiliating Greg, and naturally, I hope the opportunity will continue to
present itself. But in the end, particularly if Greg manages to get a pair
into Manhattan, and Greg's speakers measure up, I will publicly make note of
the fact. Would I further be forced to rate Greg's speakers a "buy"? I
highly doubt it, but I value intellectual honesty more than winning an
argument.

And even if it this were the case, we'd have a fine French Farce for Google.
That's Entertainment!

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...
Bob Morein wrote:


We can't assume that Greg's speakers are better than some of the cheap
stuff
available -- the new little Kefs, the NHT Super Zeros, or whatever
represents that class today. While it's true that the large volume
makers
count every scrap of wire, they usually have the benefit of Harmon
International's speaker lab, with turntable and MLSSA, and the Canadians
have their counterpart. Other small makers have their own woodshops and
spend months turning out cabinets with minor variations. This, the
tuning
procedure, has been ridiculed by Greg as unnecessary to a person as
"lucky"
as him.



Your audio history is a little weak, Bob Morion. Paradigm used to brag
about the use of DBTs at the National Research Center of Canada, but for
some reason they don't do that anymore.

I haven't mentioned DBTs once in regard to your speakers. It's not an issue
for me.

In fact, all they do is rely on
one guy, Scott Bagby, who really is a good desiger.

Yes, he actually designs speakers.
You do not.
You threw a couple Chinese drivers in a box, and pronounced yourself lucky.

Except Paradigm
cuts all the usual corners that one has to do to mass produce a speaker,
and the result is what it is.

The truth is, common sense goes a long way in making a good sounding
speaker.

Well sure it does, Greg. Except you didn't design the speakers. You just
threw the drivers in a box.
Scott designs speakers. He tries many variations of cabinet, crossover
components, drivers, etc.
He MODIFIES drivers per need of the design.
You picked parts out of a catalog and screwed them together with a power
screwdriver.
But in reality, you're screwing the customer.

I see a lot of gimmicks and bad ideas in speaker manufacture,
but not a lot of common sense.
But how would you know, Greg? You've never designed a speaker.
You did what a hobbyist would do on a rainy afternoon, nothing more.

[snip Quentin Tarantino]

Greg, speakers are not designed by analogy.
They can be tuned by analogy.
You didn't do the work. You claim you were lucky, and you're out to screw
the customer.

I don't think I'm going to allow that to happen.

(slight satiric modification of the below text should be noted)
You remind me of a bit in Bukowski's first novel, "Post Office", where a
coworker is needling him about wanting to write a novel, as if there was
some special process involved. "GO TO A SMALL ROOM AND SCREW TOGETHER
SPEAKERS," he tells
him. Some people were just put on this earth to be lame, I guess. Am I
getting warm, Bob?

From this distance, I cannot see if your air conditioning is working or not.

However, I observe that you screw your speakers together in a small room.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:35:51 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

You didn't do the work. You claim you were lucky, and you're out to screw
the customer.

I don't think I'm going to allow that to happen.

You talked about *my* credibility in another post.
As Lionel points out, you are passionate about the wrongness of my criticism
of Trotsky. Generally, this kind of involvment is cause for someone to
recuse himself from judgeship. I'm not asking you to do that; but I do
consider a kind of conflict that could cloud your judgement a little.


Do you think that *your* credibility is particularly high in this
forum?
No.

Don't you think you've shot your credibility when it comes to
the issue of Trotsky's speakers?
I think that only fence-sitters would be convinced by my argument, or by
Trotsky's. However, as a result of my challenges, and the ensuing
discussion, we came to know how Greg bypassed the design step. This fact,
not my credibility, negatively influences the perception of Greg Singh,
a.k.a. "Trotsky."

Do you *really* think that you've got
the power to prevent Trotsky from "screwing the customer"?

No, because there aren't going to be any customers.
Even IF his speakers represented some kind of remarkable value, he has no
capital with the powers that be in audio distribution and retail.
On the other hand, if he had, or were to become involved with a powerful
marketing organization that forced his speakers into distribution, my
opinion would have little effect.

My posts may have a negative impact in one way. Lurkers read this group;
they are now aware that if there was any design work at all, Trotsky didn't
do it. They are also aware that the design is his first and only one; there
were no iterations in the design process. Should these speakers be accepted
for review by one of the magazines, there is considerable chance that a
reviewer would become aware of this. There is also considerable chance it
would affect the outcome of the review in a negative way. Reviewers and
magazines like to nuture original talents, but Trotsky has not applied
personal talent to his product.

Trotsky is on a dusty trail, littered with the bleached bones of people who
thought it would be a neat idea to make audiophile loudspeakers, and
failed -- even if their products were decent.

And I don't think his product is decent.
If he wants to convince me otherwise, let him deliver a set for a very
limited period of time, to any dealer in Manhattan, or to Soundex of Willow
Grove, Pa. , or Audio Trading Outlet of Jenkintown, Pa.

Otherwise, it will be my duty to warn prospective purchasers away from the
product, based upon what I know of the omissions in the design process, and
the character of the designer.

I would imagine that this is a bit of a conflict for you. If you were to
report that Trotsky's speakers are deficient, you might fear that I would
use the fact against him, and also against you, as in, "I told you so." I
promise you I will not do that. Regardless as to your judgment of these
speakers, you are a single observer, as fallible as the rest of us. Nor will
I concede that Trotsky's speakers are merchantable based solely upon your
observations. Yet with independent confirmations, your opinion counts
powerfully.

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

Bob Morein wrote:


We can't assume that Greg's speakers are better than some of the cheap
stuff
available -- the new little Kefs, the NHT Super Zeros, or whatever
represents that class today. While it's true that the large volume

makers

count every scrap of wire, they usually have the benefit of Harmon
International's speaker lab, with turntable and MLSSA, and the Canadians
have their counterpart. Other small makers have their own woodshops and
spend months turning out cabinets with minor variations. This, the

tuning

procedure, has been ridiculed by Greg as unnecessary to a person as
"lucky"
as him.



Your audio history is a little weak, Bob Morion. Paradigm used to brag
about the use of DBTs at the National Research Center of Canada, but for
some reason they don't do that anymore.


I haven't mentioned DBTs once in regard to your speakers. It's not an
issue
for me.


My mistake, I didn't realize you were this ignorant. Let me explain:
Floyd Toole isn't famous for being employed by Harman (please note
correct spelling) for utilizing critical listeners.



In fact, all they do is rely on

one guy, Scott Bagby, who really is a good desiger.


Yes, he actually designs speakers.
You do not.
You threw a couple Chinese drivers in a box, and pronounced yourself
lucky.


Sure, because I'm honest. Let me make it plain: the Europa is
outstanding, in a field where the competition is somewhat fierce. The
Subterfuge subwoofer is just plain the most tonally accurate subwoofer I
have ever heard, at any price point. The competition in the subwoofer
arena is stiff too, but only because of marketing, not because of sound
quality. I've had the benefit of years at the retail level to study the
market, thus you really don't have enough knowledge to comprehend how
relevant my reasonably priced speakers are. Moreover, you don't even
seem to understand the factory direct trend in the audio biz, as you've
mentioned "getting a pair into Manhattan" several times. If somebody
buys a pair in Manhattan then they'll be a pair there. Good like trying
to get people to let you into their homes!



Except Paradigm

cuts all the usual corners that one has to do to mass produce a speaker,
and the result is what it is.

The truth is, common sense goes a long way in making a good sounding
speaker.


Well sure it does, Greg. Except you didn't design the speakers. You just
threw the drivers in a box.
Scott designs speakers. He tries many variations of cabinet, crossover
components, drivers, etc.
He MODIFIES drivers per need of the design.
You picked parts out of a catalog and screwed them together with a power
screwdriver.
But in reality, you're screwing the customer.



That's an opinion you get to have. The fact is, nothing you've said on
the 'net makes me think that you have the listening skills to appreciate
what good sound is. And how is a 45 day trial "screwing the customer"?
You're criticisms don't seem too well founded, do they. I guess I'm
screwing the customer out of shipping charges so UPS can make some more
money.



I see a lot of gimmicks and bad ideas in speaker manufacture,

but not a lot of common sense.

But how would you know, Greg? You've never designed a speaker.
You did what a hobbyist would do on a rainy afternoon, nothing more.



Oh, so it's impossible to design an exceptional sounding pair of
speakers in a short amount of time? I should've gone to a "small room"
and spent more time designing? The more I hear from you, Bob Morion,
the more I realize you know NOTHING about the creative process.


[snip Quentin Tarantino]

Greg, speakers are not designed by analogy.
They can be tuned by analogy.
You didn't do the work. You claim you were lucky, and you're out to screw
the customer.


What exactly happens when I "screw the customer", Bob? They return the
speakers to me and I give them a refund? Or I don't give them a refund,
and get brought up on charges by the Attorney General? If they pay by
credit card, all they have to do is to dispute the payment. Frankly, I
think this discussion just shows how ignorant you are in this matter.




I don't think I'm going to allow that to happen.



The screenplay business must be really taking off for you.




(slight satiric modification of the below text should be noted)

You remind me of a bit in Bukowski's first novel, "Post Office", where a
coworker is needling him about wanting to write a novel, as if there was
some special process involved. "GO TO A SMALL ROOM AND SCREW TOGETHER

SPEAKERS," he tells

him. Some people were just put on this earth to be lame, I guess. Am I
getting warm, Bob?


From this distance, I cannot see if your air conditioning is working
or not.

However, I observe that you screw your speakers together in a small room.



Oh my God, did you just adulterate Bukowski's intellectual property?
Bob, you have just raised yourself to the status of the biggest
hypocrite in the history of this newsgroup. Kudos!

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:03:04 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of
thegreat
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made.

They are? Are you serious? What is the universe of discourse here? Are
you
including transistor radio speakers driven by 100mw? Dashboard
enunciators?
The ubiquitous Panasonic answering machine?

You forgot the beepers that go off when a computer boots...

;-)

Why, yes I am.

What part of "all speakers made" do you not understand?

It's not a matter of misunderstanding, it's a matter of searching for
relevance.

Of course, far be it from Weil to not descend into a little deception by the
well-known means of making an irrelevant comparison.

If Best Buy shelf systems are included, we still have to be careful.

No we don't. Well, at least *I* don't.

We have an admission from Weil that he does not need to make careful
comparisons.

We don't know whether Greg's speakers have a horrendous response anomaly
which
deprives them of the benefit that should accrue from better drivers.

"We" might not, but "I* do.

There's no proof that David Weil isn't stone deaf, or close to it. There's
no evidence that he can hear any of a number of horrendous response
anomalies. There is evidence that David Weil is a proud collector of
defective and/or obsolete to the point of grotesque loudspeakers.

They are sitting in my living room as we
speak. If you'llgo back and reread what I said, you'llrealize that I'm
saying that there is no "horrendous response anomaly" present in his
speakers.

Prove it. BTW please note that Weil was so upset when he typed this that he
couldn't find the space bar much of the time.

A bad cook can spoil any food.

We know for a fact that Greg has zero appreciation of, and zero expertise in
the application of *all known* loudspeaker development technologies. We know
that he does not know the difference between an ohm and a volt. We know that
he was unable to hold a regular engineering or even a petty sales job. We
know for a fact that Greg has terribly strange ideas about what constitutes
good bass. We know that Greg has made untrue but wildly optimistic claims
about his hearing acuity. We know that Greg pays about 4 times as much for
speaker drivers of a given quality level than your typical speaker
manufacturer, and then marks them up outlandishly.

How much bad news is required before any reasonable person simply makes a
more logical choice and looks elsewhere?

Well, you can fly blind all you want to. I've got his speakers in
house.

So what?

We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage ears for
years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital hearing
defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems with
mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about owning
loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard by
modern standards.

How much bad news is required before any reasonable person simply makes a
more logical choice and looks elsewhere?

"Bob Morein" wrote in message
...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:03:04 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:00:55 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Sorry, Trotsky. No can do.
It's necessary to draw attention to what in my opinion is one of the
great
audio frauds and misrepresentations of our time -- Jupiter Audio.
You, Greg Singh, are a fraud, plain and simple.

Actually, it's not true. He is indeed selling speakers that make
sound. They are better than 95% of all speakers made.

They are? Are you serious? What is the universe of discourse here? Are
you
including transistor radio speakers driven by 100mw? Dashboard
enunciators?
The ubiquitous Panasonic answering machine?

Why, yes I am.

Weil admits that he was using "Debating Trade" hyperbole.

How sad.

What part of "all speakers made" do you not understand?

If Best Buy shelf systems are included, we still have to be careful.

No we don't. Well, at least *I* don't.

Of course not. You don't have to be careful. I'm impressed.

Agreed. Anybody who has followed the Usenet career of Weil knows that he is
a flaming hypocrite. He sets high standards for others, misrepresents them
and their acts so that he can claim that they have failed to meet high
standards, and then follows roads low and lower for his own work.

We don't know whether Greg's speakers have a horrendous response
anomaly which
deprives them of the benefit that should accrue from better drivers.

Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies. I'd expect
either thin or boomy bass or both, along with a hole in the midrange and a
level mismatch between the upper and lower range drivers. Then there are the
problems that came with the low-cost, low-performance drivers that he
choose. That topic has already been covered in the recent past so there is
no need to belabor it.

"We" might not, but "I* do. They are sitting in my living room as we
speak. If you'llgo back and reread what I said, you'llrealize that I'm
saying that there is no "horrendous response anomaly" present in his
speakers.

I won't assume you're prejudiced, but you are just one person.

Frankly, we don't squat about Weil's hearing ability. We do have some clues
based on his inability to exploit my PCABX web site.

You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.

Including the possibility that Weil is lying about having the speakers in
his possession.

Unfortunately, I know nothing about your reputation as a reliable observer
or reporter.

If you study the google archives, there is lots of relevant information
about Weil's hearing acuity and tastes, but it's all bad.

If you report that the speakers are good, I will not discount your
observation, but neither will I take it as settled that your observations
are correct, unless they are confirmed multiple times by independent
observers.

Let's take a for-instance. There are two RAO participants who have access to
excellent speaker evaluation facilities. One, Tom Nousiane is a professional
audio system evaluator is routinely paid well by sound system manufacturers,
to evaluate their audio products. Is there a snowball's chance in hell that
Singh tried to engage Nousaine's services? Nope!

A bad cook can spoil any food.
Beware of Radio Shack Linaeums, as well. The Linaeum was one helluva
good
tweeter. Greg's woofers are probably better than Radio Shack's, but
he's
flying blind. Misalignment of a bass reflex system is devastating to
the
sound, regardless of who/what drivers are used.

Well, you can fly blind all you want to. I've got his speakers in
house.

Weil also no doubt has cockroaches in his house. The cockroaches, unlike the
speakers can be reasonably assumed to be fully operational at standard
levels of operation.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:31:08 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

My posts may have a negative impact in one way.

Yes, they show how obsessed you are with a particular person.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:31:08 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

I would imagine that this is a bit of a conflict for you. If you were to
report that Trotsky's speakers are deficient, you might fear that I would
use the fact against him, and also against you, as in, "I told you so." I
promise you I will not do that. Regardless as to your judgment of these
speakers, you are a single observer, as fallible as the rest of us. Nor will
I concede that Trotsky's speakers are merchantable based solely upon your
observations. Yet with independent confirmations, your opinion counts
powerfully.

I have no conflict at all. I will simply report them as I experience
them. Then, people can do what I've always suggested that they do when
reading *any* critical commentary - first, consider the source,
second, try to factor in the known biases and knowledge of the
commentator, third, dovetail that with their own biases and
experiences, and fourth, take it all with a grain of salt.

I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage ears for
years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital hearing
defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems with
mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about owning
loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard by
modern standards.

Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?

Oh yeah, the Army had a simple remedy for what you talk about -
mandatory ear plugs.

As to the final point, I *do* own some loudspeakers that are currently
not being used because they need repair. They are not being used,
obviously.

Arnold, your attacking me shows more about you than it does me. I
think you're mad because I didn't go after you while you were on your
vacation.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies. I'd expect
either thin or boomy bass or both, along with a hole in the midrange and a
level mismatch between the upper and lower range drivers. Then there are the
problems that came with the low-cost, low-performance drivers that he
choose. That topic has already been covered in the recent past so there is
no need to belabor it.

Unfortunately, you'd be wrong.

The speakers are *not* perfect of course, and I'll be getting into
that when I make my final comments. In fact, there's one thing I will
note that will give you fodder for comedy (but it's not anything
particularly audio-related per se).

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


Frankly, we don't squat about Weil's hearing ability

Thankfully, I might note.

trotsky said:

Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.

I have an idea about implementing your trash-the-Christianity plan.
Start calling yourself "Reverend Singh". That may fool Krooger.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.

Including the possibility that Weil is lying about having the speakers in
his possession.

Sure, I could be lying about it. I could also be setting Greg up
because, as you know, he and I took each other apart pretty regularly.
Maybe I'm holding a grudge, which makes his sending me the speakers at
the very least, an act of couraqge, especially since he knows that I
don't have the kind of gear that he would like to see associated with
his speakers.

However, neither of these scenarios is true. I could prive the first
by posting a dated picture of them, but you'd just claim that I
"Photoshopped" them. So, why should I bother?

Yes, I have them here and have listened to them as time has allowed. I
haven't *really* gotten into the meat of the listening, as I spent the
hour or so that I had available to me yesterday positioning them (and
I'm not quite satisfied yet).

The funny thing is, that there are some areas that I think you are
going to agree with me about...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

One, Tom Nousiane is a professional
audio system evaluator is routinely paid well by sound system manufacturers,
to evaluate their audio products.

So, basically, when he comments about subwoofers here on RAO, we have
to take into account that he's a biased (and compensated) observer.

dave weil said:

No, I simply said that when I said 95% of all speakers, I wasn't
excluding *any* speakers.

Where would you rank trotsky's speakers against comparable ones?

dave weil wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage
ears for
years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital
hearing
defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems with
mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about
owning
loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard by
modern standards.


Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?



That's more of Arny's lack of Christian morals. Arny should just found
the Church of Being a ******* and have done with it. It could be that
he already tried, though, and kept on getting arrested for indecent
exposure by refusing to mend the well placed slit in his robe.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
news


trotsky said:

Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.

I have an idea about implementing your trash-the-Christianity plan.
Start calling yourself "Reverend Singh". That may fool Krooger.

It's a bit more than that.
He thinks his speakers are the Second Coming.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:31:08 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

I would imagine that this is a bit of a conflict for you. If you were to
report that Trotsky's speakers are deficient, you might fear that I would
use the fact against him, and also against you, as in, "I told you so." I
promise you I will not do that. Regardless as to your judgment of these
speakers, you are a single observer, as fallible as the rest of us. Nor
will
I concede that Trotsky's speakers are merchantable based solely upon your
observations. Yet with independent confirmations, your opinion counts
powerfully.

I have no conflict at all. I will simply report them as I experience
them. Then, people can do what I've always suggested that they do when
reading *any* critical commentary - first, consider the source,
second, try to factor in the known biases and knowledge of the
commentator, third, dovetail that with their own biases and
experiences, and fourth, take it all with a grain of salt.

I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

Fair enough.
I wonder if Trotsky would consider subsequently sending them to a
destination in Manhattan.
How many people would be interested in hearing them there?

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...
Bob Morein wrote:

[sni]


What exactly happens when I "screw the customer", Bob? They return the
speakers to me and I give them a refund? Or I don't give them a refund,
and get brought up on charges by the Attorney General? If they pay by
credit card, all they have to do is to dispute the payment. Frankly, I
think this discussion just shows how ignorant you are in this matter.

I think you're gambling with money you don't have.

trotsky wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:



Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.




That's blatantly false. The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard

Replace heard with tested and get back to us.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:08:58 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

Fair enough.
I wonder if Trotsky would consider subsequently sending them to a
destination in Manhattan.
How many people would be interested in hearing them there?

I doubt he would do it just to let you to take biased potshots at his
product, as I don't think that you've shown yourself to be able to
analyse his speaker with anything other than malice.

Obie-Wan Test-MeBorg said:

Replace heard with tested and get back to us.

Assimilation alert!

Power up your stereos, guys. The 'borgs are on the march.

"dave weil" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:08:58 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

Fair enough.
I wonder if Trotsky would consider subsequently sending them to a
destination in Manhattan.
How many people would be interested in hearing them there?

I doubt he would do it just to let you to take biased potshots at his
product, as I don't think that you've shown yourself to be able to
analyse his speaker with anything other than malice.

There would be zero downside potential for him.
If I trash the speakers, then it would be attributed toward my personal
dislike of Trotsky, and be disregarded.
If I don't trash them, it's a plus for him.
He can't lose.

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

Bob Morein wrote:


[sni]


What exactly happens when I "screw the customer", Bob? They return the
speakers to me and I give them a refund? Or I don't give them a refund,
and get brought up on charges by the Attorney General? If they pay by
credit card, all they have to do is to dispute the payment. Frankly, I
think this discussion just shows how ignorant you are in this matter.


I think you're gambling with money you don't have.



That makes no sense, but then neither does [sni].