Hey guys. I'm looking to upgrade my stereo system with a new receiver
(Denon AVR-1603) and centre channel (haven't decided on which one, but
perhaps a Paradigm CC-70). I'm already happy with my two fronts,
which are Paradigm Titans (v3). What I'm mostly uncertain about is
whether I should upgade my rears or not. Right now I have what I dub
"poor man rears", or in other words, they are speakers from an old
1998 hi-fi system. To be exact, they are Panasonic SB-AK45 speakers
with the following specs. They sound "adequate" but I really can't
decide if it'd be worth it for me to spend a couple hundred more to
replace them

Type: 4-way speaker system
Speakers
Super woofer: 17 cm cone type
Woofer: 12 cm cone type
Midrange: 6 cm cone type
Tweeter: Plezo type
Impedance: Total 6 ohms
Input power: Total 160 W (Music), Total 80 W (DIN)
Output sound pressure level: 84 dB/W (1.0 m)
Cross over frequency: 200 Hz, 3.5 kHz
Frequence range: 45 Hz - 22 kHz (-16 dB), 55 Hz - 20 kHz (-10 dB)

I guess my major dilema is that I have a major interest in audio
quality, and can really tell high end from low end. But of course,
I'm on a budget sicne I'm a university student, so anything that I
many not need right now I probably shouldn't spend on. Anyway I'm
hoping some of you might be able to tell me your honest opinion of
these specs as my current rears. Thanks!

I'd call Paradigm. Let them know what you want to do. Start there. Then
listen to a lot o speakers!! Try to match the tonal quality. aradigm may
have a matched center.
Clay

--


There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm looking to upgrade my stereo system with a new receiver
(Denon AVR-1603) and centre channel (haven't decided on which one, but
perhaps a Paradigm CC-70). I'm already happy with my two fronts,
which are Paradigm Titans (v3). What I'm mostly uncertain about is
whether I should upgade my rears or not. Right now I have what I dub
"poor man rears", or in other words, they are speakers from an old
1998 hi-fi system. To be exact, they are Panasonic SB-AK45 speakers
with the following specs. They sound "adequate" but I really can't
decide if it'd be worth it for me to spend a couple hundred more to
replace them

Type: 4-way speaker system
Speakers
Super woofer: 17 cm cone type
Woofer: 12 cm cone type
Midrange: 6 cm cone type
Tweeter: Plezo type
Impedance: Total 6 ohms
Input power: Total 160 W (Music), Total 80 W (DIN)
Output sound pressure level: 84 dB/W (1.0 m)
Cross over frequency: 200 Hz, 3.5 kHz
Frequence range: 45 Hz - 22 kHz (-16 dB), 55 Hz - 20 kHz (-10 dB)

I guess my major dilema is that I have a major interest in audio
quality, and can really tell high end from low end. But of course,
I'm on a budget sicne I'm a university student, so anything that I
many not need right now I probably shouldn't spend on. Anyway I'm
hoping some of you might be able to tell me your honest opinion of
these specs as my current rears. Thanks!

On 21 Sep 2003 16:59:01 -0700, (Jason Wong)
wrote:

I guess my major dilema is that I have a major interest in audio
quality, and can really tell high end from low end.

All you have to do is be exposed to various systems and listen.

But of course,
I'm on a budget sicne I'm a university student, so anything that I
many not need right now I probably shouldn't spend on. Anyway I'm
hoping some of you might be able to tell me your honest opinion of
these specs as my current rears.

The specs are irrelevant. The speakers are probably mediocre (but you
knew that) and should eventually be replaced. However, there's
nothing to prevent you from using and enjoying them as rear channel
speakers as long as you have the levels adjusted properly. In fact,
it is more important to have the center channel match the voicing of
the main speaker than it is to have the rears match. But most A/V
receivers and pre/pros will permit you to use a phantom center which
works well for music but less so for movies. Depending on your
habits, it might be better to invest in new rear channels or center
channel.

Kal

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm looking to upgrade my stereo system with a new receiver
(Denon AVR-1603) and centre channel (haven't decided on which one, but
perhaps a Paradigm CC-70). I'm already happy with my two fronts,
which are Paradigm Titans (v3). What I'm mostly uncertain about is
whether I should upgade my rears or not. Right now I have what I dub
"poor man rears", or in other words, they are speakers from an old
1998 hi-fi system. To be exact, they are Panasonic SB-AK45 speakers
with the following specs. They sound "adequate" but I really can't
decide if it'd be worth it for me to spend a couple hundred more to
replace them

Personally, I've found surround-for-music to be extremely sensitive to the
quality of the surround speakers, particularly the tweeters.
Radio Shack Linaeums, available on eBay, are excellent in this application,
due to the unusually low distortion of the tweeter. The bumpy woofer/mid
response seems to be secondary in importance.

From the description you give, it's highly likely that these speakers have
high enough levels of distortion and other anomalies to have a negative
effect on the clarity of the system. However, as Kal says, a good matching
center is of greater importance for HT. On the other hand, music modes
frequently don't use the center.

in article , Jason Wong at
wrote on 9/21/03 19.59:

Hey guys. I'm looking to upgrade my stereo system with a new receiver
(Denon AVR-1603) and centre channel (haven't decided on which one, but
perhaps a Paradigm CC-70). I'm already happy with my two fronts,
which are Paradigm Titans (v3). What I'm mostly uncertain about is
whether I should upgade my rears or not. Right now I have what I dub
"poor man rears", or in other words, they are speakers from an old
1998 hi-fi system. To be exact, they are Panasonic SB-AK45 speakers
with the following specs. They sound "adequate" but I really can't
decide if it'd be worth it for me to spend a couple hundred more to
replace them

Type: 4-way speaker system
Speakers
Super woofer: 17 cm cone type
Woofer: 12 cm cone type
Midrange: 6 cm cone type
Tweeter: Plezo type
Impedance: Total 6 ohms
Input power: Total 160 W (Music), Total 80 W (DIN)
Output sound pressure level: 84 dB/W (1.0 m)
Cross over frequency: 200 Hz, 3.5 kHz
Frequence range: 45 Hz - 22 kHz (-16 dB), 55 Hz - 20 kHz (-10 dB)

I guess my major dilema is that I have a major interest in audio
quality, and can really tell high end from low end. But of course,
I'm on a budget sicne I'm a university student, so anything that I
many not need right now I probably shouldn't spend on. Anyway I'm
hoping some of you might be able to tell me your honest opinion of
these specs as my current rears. Thanks!


Which Surround spec are you most concerned with hearing? You need GOOD full
bandwidth real channels AND center channels for true Dolby Digital. I think
DTS is bandwidth limited in the rear surrounds and center channel.
Short answer, if you want to hear true Dolby Digital Surround, you need full
frequency Center and Rear Surround speakers. If you only want to hear DTS
properly then don't worry about the upgrade.
Ideally you want an identical speaker for each channel. (Ie. One CC-70 for
each of the 5 channels, and then an LFE speaker)
If you can't do that, make sure all your 5 surrounds can handle real full
range input. (50Hz - 16Khz is usually the effective minimum bandwidth)

J

--
josh.snider
cave.productions
416.524.6927

"Josh Snider" wrote in message
...
in article , Jason Wong at
wrote on 9/21/03 19.59:
[snip]
Which Surround spec are you most concerned with hearing? You need GOOD
full
bandwidth real channels AND center channels for true Dolby Digital. I
think
DTS is bandwidth limited in the rear surrounds and center channel.

That is not correct. There is no bandwidth limitation with DTS. However,
Dolby Digital removes phase and channel separation information.

Short answer, if you want to hear true Dolby Digital Surround, you need
full
frequency Center and Rear Surround speakers. If you only want to hear DTS
properly then don't worry about the upgrade.

Not true again. DTS is superior in all aspects to Dolby Digital.

[snip]

Jason Wong wrote:

I guess my major dilema is that I have a major interest in audio
quality, and can really tell high end from low end. But of course,
I'm on a budget sicne I'm a university student, so anything that I
many not need right now I probably shouldn't spend on. Anyway I'm
hoping some of you might be able to tell me your honest opinion of
these specs as my current rears. Thanks!

Speaker specifications are not useful. Go and listen to them. If you like
the way they sound, use them.

Speakers all are so phenomenally colored that first of all manufacturers
won't let you see any useful numbers, and secondly selecting speakers
becomes a very subjective thing. You basically need to find the speakers
whose coloration you can live with.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Thanks for all your input so far. I'm now wondering if I should save
money and replace my rears later, and just get a centre channel, or
pay a bit more and get a centre + 2 rears package deal. Here are my
choices so far:

Technics SB-CSS150 ($250)
http://products.consumerguide.com/cp...x.cfm/id/20076

Yamaha NS-60 ($199)
http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi...SPK00010NS-P60

or just a Paradigm CC-70 ($189) for now

I'm re-evaluating my budget and I'm not sure if I can't afford new
rears+centre if I'm going to get a new receiver too (which I really
really want! :-)). I actually just repositioned my old Panasonic
rears, mounted them onto some milk crates and moved them next to my
couch. I never realized how much proper positioning counts! So now
my "el cheapo" rears sound not-so-bad, so perhaps I should save money
now and think of upgading them later down the road.

I'd really appreciate any feedback you guys could give. Thanks!

-- Jason

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:49:49 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

Ideally you want an identical speaker for each channel. (Ie. One CC-70 for
each of the 5 channels, and then an LFE speaker)

Sorry. The CC-70 is a dedicated center channel speaker and really not
suitable for use all around.

Kal

in article , Kalman Rubinson at
wrote on 9/22/03 11.04:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:49:49 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

Ideally you want an identical speaker for each channel. (Ie. One CC-70 for
each of the 5 channels, and then an LFE speaker)

Sorry. The CC-70 is a dedicated center channel speaker and really not
suitable for use all around.

Kal

I wasn't recommending the CC-70 for all around use, I was simply giving an
example of having an identical speaker for each channel.


J


--
josh.snider
cave.productions
416.524.6927

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:11:54 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

in article , Kalman Rubinson at
wrote on 9/22/03 11.04:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:49:49 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

Ideally you want an identical speaker for each channel. (Ie. One CC-70 for
each of the 5 channels, and then an LFE speaker)

Sorry. The CC-70 is a dedicated center channel speaker and really not
suitable for use all around.

Kal

I wasn't recommending the CC-70 for all around use, I was simply giving an
example of having an identical speaker for each channel.

Understood but that's not how it reads.

Kal

in article , Kalman Rubinson at
wrote on 9/22/03 22.29:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:11:54 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

in article , Kalman Rubinson at
wrote on 9/22/03 11.04:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:49:49 -0400, Josh Snider
wrote:

Ideally you want an identical speaker for each channel. (Ie. One CC-70 for
each of the 5 channels, and then an LFE speaker)

Sorry. The CC-70 is a dedicated center channel speaker and really not
suitable for use all around.

Kal

I wasn't recommending the CC-70 for all around use, I was simply giving an
example of having an identical speaker for each channel.

Understood but that's not how it reads.

Kal

I realize that now. It had been a long day.

J

--
josh.snider
cave.productions
416.524.6927

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for all your input so far. I'm now wondering if I should save
money and replace my rears later, and just get a centre channel, or
pay a bit more and get a centre + 2 rears package deal. Here are my
choices so far:

Technics SB-CSS150 ($250)
http://products.consumerguide.com/cp...x.cfm/id/20076

Yamaha NS-60 ($199)
http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi...SPK00010NS-P60

or just a Paradigm CC-70 ($189) for now


I would HIGHLY recommend just getting the Paradigm center if that is all you
can afford right now - wait on the rears - they are less important than the
fronts. Replacing the front 3 with mediocre ones because all 3 cost around
what the Paradigm center costs is penny wise and pound foolish. Why replace
and want to upgrade later again? As for the new receiver, don't blow the
budget on that - I recommend the Denon like you are looking at or also look
at Onkyo. From a sound quality perspective - the receiver makes less of a
difference than speakers do. You would potentially be better served going
with a less expensive Pioneer receiver with same kind of features (they are
quite good for the price) and putting more money on the speakers like maybe
upgrading to the CC-170.




Dennis


I'm re-evaluating my budget and I'm not sure if I can't afford new
rears+centre if I'm going to get a new receiver too (which I really
really want! :-)). I actually just repositioned my old Panasonic
rears, mounted them onto some milk crates and moved them next to my
couch. I never realized how much proper positioning counts! So now
my "el cheapo" rears sound not-so-bad, so perhaps I should save money
now and think of upgading them later down the road.

I'd really appreciate any feedback you guys could give. Thanks!

-- Jason

From a sound quality perspective - the receiver makes
less of a difference than speakers do...

I have to agree. Spend as much as you can afford on the speakers. If you
can only afford to upgrade the center channel right now, then just do that.
Even small increments in speaker quality are readily noticeable. Once you
get beyond the level of basic junk, you need a much larger increment in
receiver quality before you'll hear a difference.

I also agree with the (snipped) comment about the center channel being more
important than the rears. This is where the major component of movie speech
will be directed. It is just as important as the front mains. Buy the best
center and mains you can afford. Good rear channel speakers can come later.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================

Sound advice guys and it just so happens that I followed exactly what
you suggested without reading it first! I just went to my dealer to
listen to the Denon 1603 in action, and for "fun" I wanted to hear
some centre channels with it too. Turns out they ran out of CC-70's
anyway so they hooked up the CC-170. It blew away the other smaller
and cheaper centres by a mile, especially when paired with the same
Paradigm Titan mains that I currently own. Anyway I was able to talk
the price down on the CC-170 to $200 CAN, which is only a fraction
more than the CC-70 would have cost anyway. Can't wait to hook up my
new centre and receiver now! Thanks guys!

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
Sound advice guys and it just so happens that I followed exactly what
you suggested without reading it first! I just went to my dealer to
listen to the Denon 1603 in action, and for "fun" I wanted to hear
some centre channels with it too. Turns out they ran out of CC-70's
anyway so they hooked up the CC-170. It blew away the other smaller
and cheaper centres by a mile, especially when paired with the same
Paradigm Titan mains that I currently own. Anyway I was able to talk
the price down on the CC-170 to $200 CAN, which is only a fraction
more than the CC-70 would have cost anyway. Can't wait to hook up my
new centre and receiver now! Thanks guys!


Enjoy - it will be worth it and a better investment!



Dennis