http://www.indiancountry.com/?2692

YMMV. I'm sure you'll point to a source that disagrees. But the "In
Dios" story is apocryphal.

Glenn Z

Glenn Zelniker said:

http://www.indiancountry.com/?2692

Mmmmm! Pass the firewater!

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:06:45 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"Glenn Zelniker" wrote in message
. com...
http://www.indiancountry.com/?2692

YMMV. I'm sure you'll point to a source that disagrees. But the "In
Dios" story is apocryphal.

Glenn Z

One person's opinion. My understanding is that Columbus himself referred
to
them as In Dios. It took the idiot preists and others to do the savagery
your source refers to.

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East Indians.

You really need to take a vaction from RAO. You are digging yourself
deeper and deeper in the intellectual hole the more you post.

An opinion you get to have.

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:26:41 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

Want to blame this on "proofreading"?

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:26:41 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East
Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

Want to blame this on "proofreading"?

Blame what? A poorly constructed sentence? Get a life.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:11:47 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:26:41 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East
Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

Want to blame this on "proofreading"?

Blame what? A poorly constructed sentence?

Wrong again. Poor logic. You said (paraphrased)

Because people had already been to India, you can assume that Columbus
knew he wasn't there.

No you *can't* assume that.

Here's an entry from his journal:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html

Sunday, 21 October. At 10 o'clock, we arrived at a cape of the island,
and anchored, the other vessels in company. After having dispatched a
meal, I went ashore, and found no habitation save a single house, and
that without an occupant; we had no doubt that the people had fled in
terror at our approach, as the house was completely furnished. I
suffered nothing to be touched, and went with my captains and some of
the crew to view the country. This island even exceeds the others in
beauty and fertility. Groves of lofty and flourishing trees are
abundant, as also large lakes, surrounded and overhung by the foliage,
in a most enchanting manner. Everything looked as green as in April in
Andalusia. The melody of the birds was so exquisite that one was never
willing to part from the spot, and the flocks of parrots obscured the
heavens. The diversity in the appearance of the feathered tribe from
those of our country is extremely curious. A thousand different sorts
of trees, with their fruit were to be met with, and of a wonderfully
delicious odor. It was a great affliction to me to be ignorant of
their natures, for I am very certain they are all valuable; specimens
of them and of the plants I have preserved. Going round one of these
lakes, I saw a snake, which we killed, and I have kept the skin for
your Highnesses; upon being discovered he took to the water, whither
we followed him, as it was not deep, and dispatched him with our
lances; he was seven spans in length; I think there are many more such
about here. I discovered also the aloe tree, and am determined to take
on board the ship tomorrow, ten quintals of it, as I am told it is
valuable. While we were in search of some good water, we came upon a
village of the natives about half a league from the place where the
ships lay; the inhabitants on discovering us abandoned their houses,
and took to flight, carrying of their goods to the mountain. I ordered
that nothing which they had left should be taken, not even the value
of a pin. Presently we saw several of the natives advancing towards
our party, and one of them came up to us, to whom we gave some hawk's
bells and glass beads, with which he was delighted. We asked him in
return, for water, and after I had gone on board the ship, the natives
came down to the shore with their calabashes full, and showed great
pleasure in presenting us with it. I ordered more glass beads to be
given them, and they promised to return the next day. It is my wish to
fill all the water casks of the ships at this place, which being
executed, I shall depart immediately, if the weather serve, and sail
round the island, till I succeed in meeting with the king, in order to
see if I can acquire any of the gold, which I hear he possesses.
Afterwards I shall set sail for another very large island which I
believe to be Cipango, according to the indications I receive from the
Indians on board. They call the Island Colba, and say there are many
large ships, and sailors there. This other island they name Bosio, and
inform me that it is very large; the others which lie in our course, I
shall examine on the passage, and according as I find gold or spices
in abundance, I shall determine what to do; at all events I am
determined to proceed on to the continent, and visit the city of
Guisay, where I shall deliver the letters of your Highnesses to the
Great Can, and demand an answer, with which I shall return.
---------------
Notice that he's taking advice from the "Indians" that he has on
board. He's already named them "Indians".

If you read the other entries, you won't find *any* indication that he
didn't think he had made landfall in the Far East, i.e India.

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/columbus.html

They told Columbus that the natives of other islands wore gold bands
around their arms and legs, and they described countless islands all
like theirs. Soon all natives were given the name “Indians” in the
belief that the Spaniards had arrived in the Indies (Asia).
snip
On the third day Columbus took six or seven Indians as guides upon his
departure from San Salvador and reconnoitered three other islands in
the Bahamas. For three months the flotilla sailed about the Caribbean,
visiting islands whose beauty the Europeans found nearly impossible to
describe. By the end of the month of October, Columbus reached the
coast of Cuba. After sailing north and then south along its coast, the
Admiral was convinced that this was nothing less than the Cipango, one
of the lands Marco Polo had praised. Despite the fact that the local
pilots told him it was an island, Columbus convinced himself that Cuba
was a promontory of the great country of Cathay.
snip
Insert editorial comment:

dw: Even after the third voyage, he thought he had found Cathay.

Invariably bad news for the Spaniards, Portuguese navigators had
fulfilled the Medieval dream of finding a direct trade route to the
Far East, thus outflanking the Muslims. For Columbus, Portugal’s
success was a new opportunity for the Great Navigator, and the
monarchs were again receptive to his vision of finding a strait to
mainland Cathay. Rather than retiring with a pension and an estate,
perhaps even a castle, Columbus suggested yet another voyage, his
fourth. The King and Queen must have been happy to agree to another
expedition if for no other reason that to unburden themselves of the
bothersome Columbus.


Get a life.

Try to figure out that you probably shouldn't be communicating in a
public forum, because you really are deficient in a lot of areas.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:11:47 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:26:41 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair
to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had
been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know
he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East
Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

Want to blame this on "proofreading"?

Blame what? A poorly constructed sentence?

Wrong again. Poor logic. You said (paraphrased)

Because people had already been to India, you can assume that Columbus
knew he wasn't there.

No you *can't* assume that.

Here's an entry from his journal:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html

Sunday, 21 October. At 10 o'clock, we arrived at a cape of the island,
and anchored, the other vessels in company. After having dispatched a
meal, I went ashore, and found no habitation save a single house, and
that without an occupant; we had no doubt that the people had fled in
terror at our approach, as the house was completely furnished. I
suffered nothing to be touched, and went with my captains and some of
the crew to view the country. This island even exceeds the others in
beauty and fertility. Groves of lofty and flourishing trees are
abundant, as also large lakes, surrounded and overhung by the foliage,
in a most enchanting manner. Everything looked as green as in April in
Andalusia. The melody of the birds was so exquisite that one was never
willing to part from the spot, and the flocks of parrots obscured the
heavens. The diversity in the appearance of the feathered tribe from
those of our country is extremely curious. A thousand different sorts
of trees, with their fruit were to be met with, and of a wonderfully
delicious odor. It was a great affliction to me to be ignorant of
their natures, for I am very certain they are all valuable; specimens
of them and of the plants I have preserved. Going round one of these
lakes, I saw a snake, which we killed, and I have kept the skin for
your Highnesses; upon being discovered he took to the water, whither
we followed him, as it was not deep, and dispatched him with our
lances; he was seven spans in length; I think there are many more such
about here. I discovered also the aloe tree, and am determined to take
on board the ship tomorrow, ten quintals of it, as I am told it is
valuable. While we were in search of some good water, we came upon a
village of the natives about half a league from the place where the
ships lay; the inhabitants on discovering us abandoned their houses,
and took to flight, carrying of their goods to the mountain. I ordered
that nothing which they had left should be taken, not even the value
of a pin. Presently we saw several of the natives advancing towards
our party, and one of them came up to us, to whom we gave some hawk's
bells and glass beads, with which he was delighted. We asked him in
return, for water, and after I had gone on board the ship, the natives
came down to the shore with their calabashes full, and showed great
pleasure in presenting us with it. I ordered more glass beads to be
given them, and they promised to return the next day. It is my wish to
fill all the water casks of the ships at this place, which being
executed, I shall depart immediately, if the weather serve, and sail
round the island, till I succeed in meeting with the king, in order to
see if I can acquire any of the gold, which I hear he possesses.
Afterwards I shall set sail for another very large island which I
believe to be Cipango, according to the indications I receive from the
Indians on board. They call the Island Colba, and say there are many
large ships, and sailors there. This other island they name Bosio, and
inform me that it is very large; the others which lie in our course, I
shall examine on the passage, and according as I find gold or spices
in abundance, I shall determine what to do; at all events I am
determined to proceed on to the continent, and visit the city of
Guisay, where I shall deliver the letters of your Highnesses to the
Great Can, and demand an answer, with which I shall return.
---------------
Notice that he's taking advice from the "Indians" that he has on
board. He's already named them "Indians".

If you read the other entries, you won't find *any* indication that he
didn't think he had made landfall in the Far East, i.e India.

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/columbus.html

They told Columbus that the natives of other islands wore gold bands
around their arms and legs, and they described countless islands all
like theirs. Soon all natives were given the name "Indians" in the
belief that the Spaniards had arrived in the Indies (Asia).
snip
On the third day Columbus took six or seven Indians as guides upon his
departure from San Salvador and reconnoitered three other islands in
the Bahamas. For three months the flotilla sailed about the Caribbean,
visiting islands whose beauty the Europeans found nearly impossible to
describe. By the end of the month of October, Columbus reached the
coast of Cuba. After sailing north and then south along its coast, the
Admiral was convinced that this was nothing less than the Cipango, one
of the lands Marco Polo had praised. Despite the fact that the local
pilots told him it was an island, Columbus convinced himself that Cuba
was a promontory of the great country of Cathay.
snip
Insert editorial comment:

dw: Even after the third voyage, he thought he had found Cathay.

Invariably bad news for the Spaniards, Portuguese navigators had
fulfilled the Medieval dream of finding a direct trade route to the
Far East, thus outflanking the Muslims. For Columbus, Portugal's
success was a new opportunity for the Great Navigator, and the
monarchs were again receptive to his vision of finding a strait to
mainland Cathay. Rather than retiring with a pension and an estate,
perhaps even a castle, Columbus suggested yet another voyage, his
fourth. The King and Queen must have been happy to agree to another
expedition if for no other reason that to unburden themselves of the
bothersome Columbus.


Get a life.

Try to figure out that you probably shouldn't be communicating in a
public forum, because you really are deficient in a lot of areas.

While I'm not certain, I'll bet there are other versions of his exploits
that might contradict the one you found, otherwise
there wouldn't be the version I heard.

One of the reasons for public forums is to exchange information. They do
not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments
about every typo or misstatement made by someone they have a disagreement
with. It's called CIVIL
discourse.

While I'm sure your life is empty enough that this sort of thing gives you
one of your only pleasures, it nonetheless shows you for petty and infantile
person you are.

Perhaps it has escaped you that when I begin a conversation with someone I
do not make attacks of a personal nature, nor do I go on a spelling check or
typo quest.

If you find my contributions here so bothersome, don't read them.

Once again, get a life, you're turning into a trotsky clone.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:01:27 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

While I'm not certain, I'll bet there are other versions of his exploits
that might contradict the one you found, otherwise
there wouldn't be the version I heard.

I can think of another reason. You might be misremembering. You might
have misunderstood. Considering how much misinformation you
dissiminate here, I wouldn't be surprised by either conclusion.

the FACTS are threr in his own words. Dispute that all you wish, but
it's clear that he had named them Indians before he even returned to
Spain the first time.

One of the reasons for public forums is to exchange information. They do
not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments
about every typo or misstatement made by someone they have a disagreement
with. It's called CIVIL
discourse.

Frankly, Mike, you have been as guilty of this as anyone. What's yer
point?

How is it elitist to point out errors in logic, massive errors in
typing, sentence construction, poor grammar, etx. We all make mistakes
in all of the above on occasion, but when someone almost virtually
makes these errors everything they post, perhaps they should
reconsider their participation, or at least, take some time in
composing a response.

While I'm sure your life is empty enough that this sort of thing gives you
one of your only pleasures, it nonetheless shows you for petty and infantile
person you are.

No, it shows that I'm willing to challenge you when you make stupid
statements like the one above.

Perhaps it has escaped you that when I begin a conversation with someone I
do not make attacks of a personal nature, nor do I go on a spelling check or
typo quest.

Perhaps it's escaped you that I generally respond in kind as well.

You have done nothing but attack Trotsky since he announced his
speakers, for instance. That opens *you* up to the same.

If you find my contributions here so bothersome, don't read them.

You're just like Ferstler. When you try to outrage, you come off as a
limp noodle. The thing is, your errors should be pointed out, because
otherwise, you'd run roughshod over the group.

Once again, get a life, you're turning into a trotsky clone.

You mean like you, with your obsession about Greg?

PS, I note that you have been unable to support your claims that the
drivers that Greg is using will make them "mediocre". Frankly, their
cost is not a good enough justification.

You almost seem like you've given up the ghost and are dispirited.
Maybe you should catch your breath...or take a vacation.

dave weil said:

not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments

How is it elitist to point out errors in logic, massive errors in
typing, sentence construction, poor grammar, etx.

I think duh-Mikey was referring to your vocation when he called you
"elitist".

ba-da-BOOM!

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:19:31 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said:

not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments

How is it elitist to point out errors in logic, massive errors in
typing, sentence construction, poor grammar, etx.

I think duh-Mikey was referring to your vocation when he called you
"elitist".

ba-da-BOOM!

Yes, that must be. *I'm* the elitist all right. Maybe a waiter made
him feel inferior once. Maybe a mean one scared him when his parents
took him out to dinner when he was little more than a baby. Who knows?

George M. Middius a écrit :


ba-da-BOOM!



bad-'a-BOON! is more correct !

--
"Keep the bugs off your glass and the bears off your ass"
Bad Plus

One of the reasons for public forums is to exchange information. They do
not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments
about every typo or misstatement made by someone they have a disagreement
with. It's called CIVIL
discourse.


Do you think the remark you make after this lecture on civility was civil or
helped to further an exchange of ideas?



While I'm sure your life is empty enough that this sort of thing gives you
one of your only pleasures, it nonetheless shows you for petty and infantile
person you are.

Dave Weil wrote:


On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.








Dave, duh-Mikey's stupidity is a matter of public record on RAO. He always
manages to prove himself wrong - LOL! He can't even lie well - despite years
of compulsive trying.




Bruce J. Richman

Dave Weil wrote:


On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:11:47 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 01:26:41 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

People had been to India prior to Columbus, so I think it's fair to
asuume
he knew he wasn't there when he wound up in the West Indies.

Damn, do you seem to be dumb. It doesn't matter that people had been
to India before. OF course, people had been to India before. That's
why he was looking for a new route.

Yes, and everyone knows this, still some people think he didn't know he
hadn't gotten there and that the Natives of the W. Indies were East
Indians.

And you were bragging about how smart you are. Reread what you
originally wrote and get back to me.

Want to blame this on "proofreading"?

Blame what? A poorly constructed sentence?

Wrong again. Poor logic. You said (paraphrased)

Because people had already been to India, you can assume that Columbus
knew he wasn't there.

No you *can't* assume that.

Here's an entry from his journal:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html

Sunday, 21 October. At 10 o'clock, we arrived at a cape of the island,
and anchored, the other vessels in company. After having dispatched a
meal, I went ashore, and found no habitation save a single house, and
that without an occupant; we had no doubt that the people had fled in
terror at our approach, as the house was completely furnished. I
suffered nothing to be touched, and went with my captains and some of
the crew to view the country. This island even exceeds the others in
beauty and fertility. Groves of lofty and flourishing trees are
abundant, as also large lakes, surrounded and overhung by the foliage,
in a most enchanting manner. Everything looked as green as in April in
Andalusia. The melody of the birds was so exquisite that one was never
willing to part from the spot, and the flocks of parrots obscured the
heavens. The diversity in the appearance of the feathered tribe from
those of our country is extremely curious. A thousand different sorts
of trees, with their fruit were to be met with, and of a wonderfully
delicious odor. It was a great affliction to me to be ignorant of
their natures, for I am very certain they are all valuable; specimens
of them and of the plants I have preserved. Going round one of these
lakes, I saw a snake, which we killed, and I have kept the skin for
your Highnesses; upon being discovered he took to the water, whither
we followed him, as it was not deep, and dispatched him with our
lances; he was seven spans in length; I think there are many more such
about here. I discovered also the aloe tree, and am determined to take
on board the ship tomorrow, ten quintals of it, as I am told it is
valuable. While we were in search of some good water, we came upon a
village of the natives about half a league from the place where the
ships lay; the inhabitants on discovering us abandoned their houses,
and took to flight, carrying of their goods to the mountain. I ordered
that nothing which they had left should be taken, not even the value
of a pin. Presently we saw several of the natives advancing towards
our party, and one of them came up to us, to whom we gave some hawk's
bells and glass beads, with which he was delighted. We asked him in
return, for water, and after I had gone on board the ship, the natives
came down to the shore with their calabashes full, and showed great
pleasure in presenting us with it. I ordered more glass beads to be
given them, and they promised to return the next day. It is my wish to
fill all the water casks of the ships at this place, which being
executed, I shall depart immediately, if the weather serve, and sail
round the island, till I succeed in meeting with the king, in order to
see if I can acquire any of the gold, which I hear he possesses.
Afterwards I shall set sail for another very large island which I
believe to be Cipango, according to the indications I receive from the
Indians on board. They call the Island Colba, and say there are many
large ships, and sailors there. This other island they name Bosio, and
inform me that it is very large; the others which lie in our course, I
shall examine on the passage, and according as I find gold or spices
in abundance, I shall determine what to do; at all events I am
determined to proceed on to the continent, and visit the city of
Guisay, where I shall deliver the letters of your Highnesses to the
Great Can, and demand an answer, with which I shall return.
---------------
Notice that he's taking advice from the "Indians" that he has on
board. He's already named them "Indians".

If you read the other entries, you won't find *any* indication that he
didn't think he had made landfall in the Far East, i.e India.

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/columbus.html

They told Columbus that the natives of other islands wore gold bands
around their arms and legs, and they described countless islands all
like theirs. Soon all natives were given the name €œIndians€? in the
belief that the Spaniards had arrived in the Indies (Asia).
snip
On the third day Columbus took six or seven Indians as guides upon his
departure from San Salvador and reconnoitered three other islands in
the Bahamas. For three months the flotilla sailed about the Caribbean,
visiting islands whose beauty the Europeans found nearly impossible to
describe. By the end of the month of October, Columbus reached the
coast of Cuba. After sailing north and then south along its coast, the
Admiral was convinced that this was nothing less than the Cipango, one
of the lands Marco Polo had praised. Despite the fact that the local
pilots told him it was an island, Columbus convinced himself that Cuba
was a promontory of the great country of Cathay.
snip
Insert editorial comment:

dw: Even after the third voyage, he thought he had found Cathay.

Invariably bad news for the Spaniards, Portuguese navigators had
fulfilled the Medieval dream of finding a direct trade route to the
Far East, thus outflanking the Muslims. For Columbus, Portugals
success was a new opportunity for the Great Navigator, and the
monarchs were again receptive to his vision of finding a strait to
mainland Cathay. Rather than retiring with a pension and an estate,
perhaps even a castle, Columbus suggested yet another voyage, his
fourth. The King and Queen must have been happy to agree to another
expedition if for no other reason that to unburden themselves of the
bothersome Columbus.


Get a life.

Try to figure out that you probably shouldn't be communicating in a
public forum, because you really are deficient in a lot of areas.







Very true. Including (1) ability to read, (2) ability to check facts before
putting foot in mouth and head up (well, you know), and (3) ability to tell the
truth. duh-Mikey has never been known to let little things - such as honesty
or knowledge - get in his way. He knows how to avoid both - and that's his
biggest claim to fame.

Bruce J. Richman

Dave Weil wrote:


On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:19:31 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said:

not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide comments

How is it elitist to point out errors in logic, massive errors in
typing, sentence construction, poor grammar, etx.

I think duh-Mikey was referring to your vocation when he called you
"elitist".

ba-da-BOOM!

Yes, that must be. *I'm* the elitist all right. Maybe a waiter made
him feel inferior once. Maybe a mean one scared him when his parents
took him out to dinner when he was little more than a baby. Who knows?








Or it could be that he was traumatized during his days as a busboy at TacoBell.
Customers thought the little doggie made more sense.


..





Bruce J. Richman

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
Dave Weil wrote:


On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:19:31 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



dave weil said:

not exist only for elitist assholes like yourself to make snide
comments

How is it elitist to point out errors in logic, massive errors in
typing, sentence construction, poor grammar, etx.

I think duh-Mikey was referring to your vocation when he called you
"elitist".

ba-da-BOOM!

Yes, that must be. *I'm* the elitist all right. Maybe a waiter made
him feel inferior once. Maybe a mean one scared him when his parents
took him out to dinner when he was little more than a baby. Who knows?








Or it could be that he was traumatized during his days as a busboy at
TacoBell.
Customers thought the little doggie made more sense.


.
Quack, quack.



Bruce J. Richman

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I'm fine, it's just a bore to have to wade through your constant rants, so I
won't be doing it any more.

I guess I'll have to suffer you telling me the conversation is over
for another year or two.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Please show one incident where I lied.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:36:45 -0700, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Please show one incident where I lied.

Truth having to do with "ultimate truth".

You have claimed to have judged Greg's speakers as mediocre and
overpriced. You've done this on the scantest evidence and a dislike of
the individual who built them. In one post, you admit that you need to
listen to speakers before evaluating. and yet, you have made numerous
proclamations about the quality of his speakers.

This sort of thing is disgusting, if you ask me.

You've also claimed that you haven't made certain conclusions based on
certainstatements, when in fact you have in fact made those very
conclusions based on those very conclusions.

Until you can come to the table with facts about Greg's speakers,
facts that *could* lead a reasonable person to a certain conclusion, I
maintain that this is a certain form of "distorting the truth".

I am now in possession of Greg's speakers and I should be able to give
my own personal opinion of the sound and suitability of his speakers
in about a week. No, I won't be able to wave my arms wildly with
microphones and measure the FR like Howard. No, I won't be able to
spit out charts and graphs. But I'll be able to give some measure of
how they sound and perform and you can take it hoever you want.

But I'll at least be able to say that I actually listened to them.

dave weil said:

But I'll at least be able to say that I actually listened to them.

The real reason duh-Mikey hates these speakers is because he's
afraid they'll give him cooties. (Unlike real bugs, imaginary ones
like cooties are inedible.)

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:36:45 -0700, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Please show one incident where I lied.

Truth having to do with "ultimate truth".

You have claimed to have judged Greg's speakers as mediocre and
overpriced. You've done this on the scantest evidence and a dislike of
the individual who built them.

I don't really care who built them, the drivers are 3rd rate and that has
nothing to do with Greg being an ass. As to their being overpriced, that's
an opinion I get to have and it's based on comparisons of other speakers I
know of either finished or DIY.

In one post, you admit that you need to
listen to speakers before evaluating. and yet, you have made numerous
proclamations about the quality of his speakers.

Revisonist history. Produce the exact quote.

This sort of thing is disgusting, if you ask me.

So is your constant fabricating.

You've also claimed that you haven't made certain conclusions based on
certainstatements, when in fact you have in fact made those very
conclusions based on those very conclusions.

Can you be more vague?

Until you can come to the table with facts about Greg's speakers,
facts that *could* lead a reasonable person to a certain conclusion, I
maintain that this is a certain form of "distorting the truth".

Until you learn what T/S parameters are you'll likely never understand why I
judge them the way I do.

I am now in possession of Greg's speakers and I should be able to give
my own personal opinion of the sound and suitability of his speakers
in about a week. No, I won't be able to wave my arms wildly with
microphones and measure the FR like Howard. No, I won't be able to
spit out charts and graphs. But I'll be able to give some measure of
how they sound and perform and you can take it hoever you want.

Lucky you. It would be more informative I think, to compare them to
something in the same price range by a reputable mgr. or even a DIY kit in
the same general price range. Even better if it could be done blind,
without the listener knowing which speakers he or she were listening to.

But I'll at least be able to say that I actually listened to them.

My condolences.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:12:36 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:36:45 -0700, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Please show one incident where I lied.

Truth having to do with "ultimate truth".

You have claimed to have judged Greg's speakers as mediocre and
overpriced. You've done this on the scantest evidence and a dislike of
the individual who built them.

I don't really care who built them, the drivers are 3rd rate

So you say. However, you've offered NO evidence.

and that has nothing to do with Greg being an ass. As to their being overpriced, that's
an opinion I get to have and it's based on comparisons of other speakers I
know of either finished or DIY.

And yet, you haven't heard these speakers, seen any measurement charts
or graphs on the drivers *or* the speaker as a whole, nor have you
heard the speakers in question. Therefore, you're only basing the
judgment of overpriced on the price of the drivers, not the quality of
them.

In one post, you admit that you need to
listen to speakers before evaluating. and yet, you have made numerous
proclamations about the quality of his speakers.

Revisonist history. Produce the exact quote.

Sure. Here's one.

Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are what,
exactly?

Who knows, who cares? They're mediocre at best, no matter how you slice it".

Is "mediocre at best" a judgment on the quality of the speakers or
not?

This sort of thing is disgusting, if you ask me.

So is your constant fabricating.

I just showed that I wasn't 'fabricating". How do you answer THAT?

You've also claimed that you haven't made certain conclusions based on
certainstatements, when in fact you have in fact made those very
conclusions based on those very conclusions.

Can you be more vague?

Sure I could.

You've done just that in this very post. You made a proclamation about
his speakers (I could actually pull out quite a few more you know) and
then you tried to deny such statements.

Until you can come to the table with facts about Greg's speakers,
facts that *could* lead a reasonable person to a certain conclusion, I
maintain that this is a certain form of "distorting the truth".

Until you learn what T/S parameters are you'll likely never understand why I
judge them the way I do.

Could you be any more vague?

I am now in possession of Greg's speakers and I should be able to give
my own personal opinion of the sound and suitability of his speakers
in about a week. No, I won't be able to wave my arms wildly with
microphones and measure the FR like Howard. No, I won't be able to
spit out charts and graphs. But I'll be able to give some measure of
how they sound and perform and you can take it hoever you want.

Lucky you. It would be more informative I think, to compare them to
something in the same price range by a reputable mgr. or even a DIY kit in
the same general price range. Even better if it could be done blind,
without the listener knowing which speakers he or she were listening to.

As we know, blind testing of speakers isn't necessary, right? There's
too many gross differences in speakers to make blind testing
necessary, at least according to the blind testing mavens.

But I'll at least be able to say that I actually listened to them.

My condolences.

Actually, my first impressions of the speaker are such that I don't
feel any burden to have to listen to them. I'm not sure if the same
could be said of *your* speakers, if i apply the same sort of
standards that *you* do.

BTW, so much for the "this conversation is over" bull from you.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:12:36 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:36:45 -0700, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which
is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Please show one incident where I lied.

Truth having to do with "ultimate truth".

You have claimed to have judged Greg's speakers as mediocre and
overpriced. You've done this on the scantest evidence and a dislike of
the individual who built them.

I don't really care who built them, the drivers are 3rd rate

So you say. However, you've offered NO evidence.

and that has nothing to do with Greg being an ass. As to their being
overpriced, that's
an opinion I get to have and it's based on comparisons of other speakers
I
know of either finished or DIY.

And yet, you haven't heard these speakers, seen any measurement charts
or graphs on the drivers *or* the speaker as a whole, nor have you
heard the speakers in question. Therefore, you're only basing the
judgment of overpriced on the price of the drivers, not the quality of
them.

In one post, you admit that you need to
listen to speakers before evaluating. and yet, you have made numerous
proclamations about the quality of his speakers.

Revisonist history. Produce the exact quote.

Sure. Here's one.

Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are
what,
exactly?

Who knows, who cares? They're mediocre at best, no matter how you
slice it".

Is "mediocre at best" a judgment on the quality of the speakers or
not?

It's a judgement on the quality of the drivers.

This sort of thing is disgusting, if you ask me.

So is your constant fabricating.

I just showed that I wasn't 'fabricating". How do you answer THAT?

It's another fabrication of course.

You've also claimed that you haven't made certain conclusions based on
certainstatements, when in fact you have in fact made those very
conclusions based on those very conclusions.

Can you be more vague?

Sure I could.

You've done just that in this very post. You made a proclamation about
his speakers (I could actually pull out quite a few more you know) and
then you tried to deny such statements.

I said his drivers are 3rd rate which they clearly are. You can't make a
silk purse, etc.

Until you can come to the table with facts about Greg's speakers,
facts that *could* lead a reasonable person to a certain conclusion, I
maintain that this is a certain form of "distorting the truth".

Until you take the trouble to learn how someone can look at the specs on a
given driver and know something of it's quality, there's no point in
explaining it furhter to you.

Until you learn what T/S parameters are you'll likely never understand
why I
judge them the way I do.

Could you be any more vague?

I am now in possession of Greg's speakers and I should be able to give
my own personal opinion of the sound and suitability of his speakers
in about a week. No, I won't be able to wave my arms wildly with
microphones and measure the FR like Howard. No, I won't be able to
spit out charts and graphs. But I'll be able to give some measure of
how they sound and perform and you can take it hoever you want.

Lucky you. It would be more informative I think, to compare them to
something in the same price range by a reputable mgr. or even a DIY kit
in
the same general price range. Even better if it could be done blind,
without the listener knowing which speakers he or she were listening to.

As we know, blind testing of speakers isn't necessary, right?

Not generally, but in this case it would be the only fair way to do it since
there is already a very large bias one way or another regarding Greg and his
speakers. I certainly wouldn't want to try and evaluate them in a
comparison that wasn't blind. If there are gross differences they will be
obvious but that's not the point I was making.

There's
too many gross differences in speakers to make blind testing
necessary, at least according to the blind testing mavens.

See above.

But I'll at least be able to say that I actually listened to them.

My condolences.

Actually, my first impressions of the speaker are such that I don't
feel any burden to have to listen to them. I'm not sure if the same
could be said of *your* speakers, if i apply the same sort of
standards that *you* do.

I given my reason for why I think his speakers are going to be inferior to
many others for the money. If you think they are a fair value then that's
an opinion you get to have. The simple fact is that for the money you can
get better performance for the same or even less money.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:24:05 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

Is "mediocre at best" a judgment on the quality of the speakers or
not?

It's a judgement on the quality of the drivers.

adopting Yoda voice

Hopeless, you are.

dave weil said:

adopting Yoda voice

Hopeless, you are.

That's it! That's the voice Krooger was doing on The Recording.

Thanks for making the connection, dave.

"****ing garbage! ****ing garbage on my ****ing lawn, it is!"

George M. Middius a écrit :


dave weil said:


adopting Yoda voice

Hopeless, you are.


That's it! That's the voice Krooger was doing on The Recording.

Thanks for making the connection, dave.

"****ing garbage! ****ing garbage on my ****ing lawn, it is!"


NostraMiddius, why are you so coward ?
Please let us have more predictions, forget Dave and is favourite toy.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:24:05 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

Is "mediocre at best" a judgment on the quality of the speakers or
not?

It's a judgement on the quality of the drivers.

adopting Yoda voice

Hopeless, you are.

Uninformed, you remain.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:19:57 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

I don't have an obseesion with anything other than the truth, which is
why I
despise Greg.

Same here, regarding you, of course.

Cough, gag!