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#1
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Opinions on graphic EQ's.-sorry to beat a dead horse
I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either
digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 I am not limiting myself to these in anyway they were just the first ones I looked at since I saw them in some posts. Usage: Live indoor and outdoor venues FOH and/or monitor EQ Potential studio usage BUT I am not a huge believer in needed a ton of eq in the studio. EQing a room is more manual labor than eq ;-) (either an ADAT/HD24 or PC recording (NOTU something or other) I have been reading through post all the way back to 2000 about Graphic eq's but they have been filled with flame wars and speculation. Keep your flames to a minimum and your exerience based opinions to a maximum. (no speculations would be good) |
#2
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"Engnrguy" wrote in message
oups.com I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 Graphic eqs are easier and more intuitive to use for simple problems, but in the final analysis they are often just steps on the way to parametrics. |
#3
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Engnrguy wrote:
I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 The Behringer. It's a nice box. A lot of EQ power for the money, and good regardless of how little it costs. I'm getting more for live sound work. -- ha |
#4
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hank alrich wrote:
Engnrguy wrote: I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 The Behringer. It's a nice box. A lot of EQ power for the money, and good regardless of how little it costs. I'm getting more for live sound work. I have never used the DEQ-830. But the MEQ-230 is just totally useless. I don't understand how anyone could actually release something like that with their name on it. The interaction between bands is so severe and so unpredictable that it's not useful at all for even rough feedback suppression. The fact that it is so terrible, so much worse than not using equalization at all in any PA application, leads me to wonder severely if the same people who bungled it so badly could ever come up with anything working. I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. The Behringer? I dunno. But if you _must_ have a graphic EQ, there are a lot of fairly high grade ones on the surplus market selling for very cheap. The better dbx units are basically worth very little now because so many people have gone to all-in-one digital processing units like the BSS. Given that you can pick them up for a reasonable price, I see no reason to even look at the consumer MI-grade stuff. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
hank alrich wrote: Engnrguy wrote: I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 The Behringer. It's a nice box. A lot of EQ power for the money, and good regardless of how little it costs. I'm getting more for live sound work. I have never used the DEQ-830. But the MEQ-230 is just totally useless. No, it's worse than that. I don't understand how anyone could actually release something like that with their name on it. The interaction between bands is so severe and so unpredictable that it's not useful at all for even rough feedback suppression. A "competitor" of mine for SR work hereabouts has 'em in his rack. When it's a local benefit show and he's going to also be playing, he likes to leave the FOH unit in bypass until he hits the stage, because see, he's the headliner. Then he kicks it in with a full-on smile curve and his cheezoid speakers start trashing the hell out of the top and bottoming out on the lows. People who know nothing of this jump in their seats and look at his speakers wondering what the hell that noise was. I like to open those shows. The fact that it is so terrible, so much worse than not using equalization at all in any PA application, leads me to wonder severely if the same people who bungled it so badly could ever come up with anything working. I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. The Behringer? I dunno. But if you _must_ have a graphic EQ, there are a lot of fairly high grade ones on the surplus market selling for very cheap. The better dbx units are basically worth very little now because so many people have gone to all-in-one digital processing units like the BSS. Given that you can pick them up for a reasonable price, I see no reason to even look at the consumer MI-grade stuff. You might be surprised how well the Beri works and now nicely its ergonomics are handled. In another year or two I'll even know something of their reliability. Most of all, compared to mid-level analog "graphic" EQ's, it sounds far superior. Down the road a little I could even send you one to mess with for a couple of weeks. Then you can post what an idiot I am for liking it. -- ha |
#6
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"hank alrich" wrote in message .. . You might be surprised how well the Beri works and now nicely its ergonomics are handled. In another year or two I'll even know something of their reliability. Most of all, compared to mid-level analog "graphic" EQ's, it sounds far superior. Has anyone tried the Behringer Ultradrive? It includes crossover function, which might not be required, but it also provides EQ on its six output channels ... so it might be just the thing for EQ on two main speakers and four monitors. Tim |
#7
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"Tim Martin" wrote in message
"hank alrich" wrote in message .. . You might be surprised how well the Beri works and now nicely its ergonomics are handled. In another year or two I'll even know something of their reliability. Most of all, compared to mid-level analog "graphic" EQ's, it sounds far superior. Has anyone tried the Behringer Ultradrive? Lots! It includes crossover function, which might not be required, but it also provides EQ on its six output channels ... so it might be just the thing for EQ on two main speakers and four monitors. The DCX 2496 has 3 input channels. I would think that you'd want the option to drive each monitor from its own console aux send for a total of 5 or 6 inputs. Nothing wrong with having a pair DCX's, no? |
#8
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Scott, Thanks! I will certainly look into the DSS units. Hank, I have
heard that about the Behringer units that's why I checked them out first. The main reason I liked the DEQ-830 was simply the sheer number of eq's per unit. I get 8 channels of independent eq in a single rack space. The venues I usually work run 2 stereo mains and 3-4 monitor channels so this saves me rack space. I noticed the Behringer is really two eq channels (stereo L-R) with lots of EQ options, which I do like and would find very useful. (It would be nice to have a parametric, graphic, and RTA in one unit) I wouldn't be opposed to buying a "high grade" or pro new or used DEQ if the price point is right. Any recommendations on a "high grade" or pro DEQ with similar functionality to the Behringer or DEQ830? An integrated RTA would be nice BUT not necessary since I could always borrow a Spectrum analyzer from my day job. (Handy perk of the job. 8-) ) More in less space is always nice. Honestly, I am all about value for the money. I don't want to pay thousands more for a pro unit that is only hundreds of dollars better sounding than a semi-pro unit. My end goal is really, great sound. So far, despite the MEQ-230's that have seen very little use, the acts I work with love the work I have been doing so they don't usually ask about or check out my rig. They usually just complain about the last bad experience they had at a club or another venue. Does that make sense? |
#9
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"Engnrguy" wrote in message
ups.com I noticed the Behringer is really two eq channels (stereo L-R) with lots of EQ options, which I do like and would find very useful. (It would be nice to have a parametric, graphic, and RTA in one unit) Have you noticed from my previous post that the DCX is really a 3-channel unit? I wouldn't be opposed to buying a "high grade" or pro new or used DEQ if the price point is right. Any recommendations on a "high grade" or pro DEQ with similar functionality to the Behringer or DEQ830? See BSS, DBX, Turbosound, Meyer, Community, and many others for higher prices. BSS has a reputation for damaging speakers when shut down uncerimoniously. The magic catch phrase seems to be "loudspeaker management system". Search on this phrase and you'll be amazed how many different ways, and different prices can be charged, for a bunch of DSPs, ADCs, and DACs packaged into a "solution". |
#10
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Thanks Arny, I just took a quick peek at the DCX unit. I will
investigate it further. Thank you for all your inputs. Perhaps, I need to decide what I would like or need the most. Do I want/need a loud speaker management system or just some eq's for my live audio rack. I WILL probably keep at least 1 graphic eq (DEQ or analog) in the rack just to be prepared. Rest assured, It won't be an MEQ-230. (For quite a while I thought it was just my hearing then I realized it WAS the MEQ that was coloring things) |
#11
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Scott Dorsey:
I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. I worked with it last Saturday on a FOH-Job. I inserted it into the mains for feedback supression. I removed it immediately even with the flat curve. It much worser than the behringer and even the behringer tends to distortion and very less headroom. But the behringer did not produce such hearable degradation of sound quality. Inserting the alesis was worser like an old ISA-Soundblaster card comparing to an RME ADI-8 DS. |
#12
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"Engnrguy" wrote in message
oups.com Thanks Arny, I just took a quick peek at the DCX unit. I will investigate it further. Thank you for all your inputs. Perhaps, I need to decide what I would like or need the most. Do I want/need a loud speaker management system or just some eq's for my live audio rack. Given the routing options on some of these products like the DCX, you may not need to make that choice. For about $250 you get the equivalent of a minimum of 3 stand-alone eqs in a fairly small box. However, the equalization options are not the same as what you'd get from a typical stand-alone equalizer, for both better and worse. If you want powerful eq for a low price, then the Behringer DSP1124P is arguably the price/performance king. Under the covers in manual mode it is just 2 each 12-band-per-channel parametric eq. There is a free windows-based FeedBack destoryer editor that allows you to control one or more of these remotely via the MIDI port on your PC, with a more user-friendly graphical interface. There's also an enhanced 24/96 version that has been announced. I WILL probably keep at least 1 graphic eq (DEQ or analog) in the rack just to be prepared. Rest assured, It won't be an MEQ-230. (For quite a while I thought it was just my hearing then I realized it WAS the MEQ that was coloring things) The MEQ 230 makes any number of technical compromises. Unbalanced in/out and non-uniform response when the controls are apparently centered may lead the list, but they don't end it. It's mechanically fragile for a portable SR environment. |
#13
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Thanks again Arny! I apprecite your responses.
This thread, my fault primarily, is leaning alot toward the DEQ's. (Which makes sense as they offer alot flexibilty and added features) Does anyone have any recommendations on Eq's manufacturer's or products in general. JoeMeek, Ashly, DBX, etc., etc. Specific graphic EQ products they would recommed. I think I know what most of you caary, from previous threads, but would you mind opening up your rack, so to speak, and give us a peak inside your eq rig's? Thank You and again I am very thankful for your opinions. |
#14
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I owned the DEQ830. For a couple of days. Like you I thought more
channels/small box = handy. Wrong. It is bad. And very difficult to use IMO. I also owned the Behringer 2496, and felt the setups were a pain on it too. I own and use lots of digital mixers and other digital equipment, but I guess I just don't like standalone digital equalizers. Hunting and scrolling through menus and squinting at LCDs is not my favorite thing. In my experience the best sound for the $, by far, has been Ashly. The MQX-2150 is exceptional if you want a 1RU unit. I think they can be found around $250 or so. The similar Rane and dbx didn't compare, for my needs. I also really like Klark-Teknik parametrics, but haven't used their graphics. Steve |
#15
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Engnrguy wrote:
Perhaps, I need to decide what I would like or need the most. Do I want/need a loud speaker management system or just some eq's for my live audio rack. That's the basic question you need to answer. If you need to have an active crossover anyway, and you need to have some notch filters for feedback removal, BUT you like the user interface on a graphic EQ, the loudspeaker management box is probably the way to go. You do have the matter of having a single point of failure but then again there is less to fail. I WILL probably keep at least 1 graphic eq (DEQ or analog) in the rack just to be prepared. Rest assured, It won't be an MEQ-230. (For quite a while I thought it was just my hearing then I realized it WAS the MEQ that was coloring things) Check out your local used audio place for White, Ashly, and the higher end dbx graphics. I don't like graphics and find them a pain in the neck, but I understand why folks use them, because it's so rapid to pull down a fader on feedback. Then again, if you use a loudspeaker management box, you can usually pull up a menu with a graphic EQ on it to do the same thing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
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I am in the market to toss my (2) Alesis MEQ-230's and get either
digital or analog units to replace them. Any adive would be appreciated. The only two I have researched are the following: Alesis DEQ-830 Behringer DEQ2496 The Behringer. It's a nice box. A lot of EQ power for the money, and good regardless of how little it costs. I'm getting more for live sound work. I have never used the DEQ-830. But the MEQ-230 is just totally useless. I don't understand how anyone could actually release something like that with their name on it. The interaction between bands is so severe and so unpredictable that it's not useful at all for even rough feedback suppression. The fact that it is so terrible, so much worse than not using equalization at all in any PA application, leads me to wonder severely if the same people who bungled it so badly could ever come up with anything working. I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. I respectfully disagree 100%. Comparing analog EQ to digital is apples and oranges, even from the same company. I haven't used the DEQ850 specifically, but I have used the DEQ230D on occasion and the DEQ450 plenty. It's safe to say the 850 uses the same filters and converters as the other two, so I can recommend the 850, even though I share Scott's disgust for the MEQ's. The DEQ's are very neutral, and while more expensive analog EQ's offer a nicer sound, if it's only control you're after, the DEQ's and most digital EQ's on the market will serve you well, and they're certainly good values. But if you _must_ have a graphic EQ, there are a lot of fairly high grade ones on the surplus market selling for very cheap. The better dbx units are basically worth very little now because so many people have gone to all-in-one digital processing units like the BSS. Given that you can pick them up for a reasonable price, I see no reason to even look at the consumer MI-grade stuff. I'm no fan of DBX analog EQ's either. They are much more functional than MI-grade ones, but are just as noisy and put a layer of filth over the tone. Rane and Ashly make the least expensive analog EQ's that I would choose over digital ones. Klark-Teknik makes about the best mass-produced graphic EQ you can buy IMO. |
#17
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I owned the DEQ830. For a couple of days. Like you I thought more
channels/small box = handy. Wrong. It is bad. And very difficult to use IMO. Could you be more specific? Were the sound issues a matter of control or quality? I also owned the Behringer 2496, and felt the setups were a pain on it too. I own and use lots of digital mixers and other digital equipment, but I guess I just don't like standalone digital equalizers. Hunting and scrolling through menus and squinting at LCDs is not my favorite thing. That's why I keep the DEQ450 kicking around. My (limited) experience with EQ GUI's is that it's important to keep a "feedback catcher" EQ ready to quickly fix problems until they can be addressed in the GUI EQ. The DEQ450 is a dual 5-band parametric, each band sweeps 20-20k, and each EQ is stereo, so it can manage stereo mains and two monitor mixes. I leave it on bypass until needed. I suspect it still converts to digital and back anyway, but it's much cleaner than cheap analogs, and I'm faster with parametrics than graphics. In my experience the best sound for the $, by far, has been Ashly. The MQX-2150 is exceptional if you want a 1RU unit. I think they can be found around $250 or so. The similar Rane and dbx didn't compare, for my needs. If you're going graphic, 1RU EQ's don't offer enough sweep, and 15 bands isn't enough for riding feedback effectively IMO. For that you can't really save space and retain adequate control, you're looking at the GQX-3102, a very good dual 31, but it's 4RU and only two channels. If you need more channels and need to save the space the DEQ850 is just about the only option, so it's a matter of how well you can master the interface. I also really like Klark-Teknik parametrics, but haven't used their graphics. The graphics are excellent, but the prices are a little hard to stomach. No question they are worth the money if you're mixing for a room full of techs, but in reality virtually all audience members can't appreciate the difference, and there's typically another sonic bottleneck in the chain that ruins anything gained. I'd rather spend the money on better mics and speakers, and use digital EQ's. Your situation might very well be the exact opposite though. |
#18
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"Thomas Thiele" wrote in message oups.com... Scott Dorsey: I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. I worked with it last Saturday on a FOH-Job. I inserted it into the mains for feedback supression. I removed it immediately even with the flat curve. It much worser than the behringer and even the behringer tends to distortion and very less headroom. But the behringer did not produce such hearable degradation of sound quality. Inserting the alesis was worser like an old ISA-Soundblaster card comparing to an RME ADI-8 DS. I should revise my recommendation for the DEQ850, my experience with the DEQ450 shouldn't apply, since it's only 5 bands, and my experience with the DEQ230D is on a pretty crappy rig where I didn't have opportunity to compare against bypass. I have heard plenty of EQ plug-ins that in quantity sound bad even set flat, including Waves Q10, and I wouldn't expect the Alesis filter algorythms to be any better. I would definitely advise comparing against bypass for digital graphics. I'm more of a parametric user, so maybe I should just shut up g |
#19
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"Thomas Thiele" wrote in message oups.com... Scott Dorsey: I would be very surprised if the DEQ-830 was any good. I worked with it last Saturday on a FOH-Job. I inserted it into the mains for feedback supression. I removed it immediately even with the flat curve. It much worser than the behringer and even the behringer tends to distortion and very less headroom. But the behringer did not produce such hearable degradation of sound quality. Inserting the alesis was worser like an old ISA-Soundblaster card comparing to an RME ADI-8 DS. I should revise my recommendation for the DEQ850, my experience with the DEQ450 shouldn't apply, since it's only 5 bands, and my experience with the DEQ230D is on a pretty crappy rig where I didn't have opportunity to compare against bypass. I have heard plenty of EQ plug-ins that in quantity sound bad even set flat, including Waves Q10, and I wouldn't expect the Alesis filter algorythms to be any better. I would definitely advise comparing against bypass for digital graphics. I'm more of a parametric user, so maybe I should just shut up g |
#20
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Again, Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions. Most of you
have convinced me to take a look at getting a good RTA and a parametric eq setup. I usually tuning method is a graphic eq set by ear. I have received lots of compliments and never had any issues but I should probably get something a little more formal and accurate. Has anyone had any experience with dbx's Drive Rack PA loudspeaker management system? It seem like a good mix of cost, quality company, and functionality. It is fully loaded with x-over, eq, comp/limit, and RTA. Opinions? |
#21
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Zigakly wrote: I owned the DEQ830. For a couple of days. Like you I thought more channels/small box = handy. Wrong. It is bad. And very difficult to use IMO. Could you be more specific? Were the sound issues a matter of control or quality? Both. I felt the EQ filters did not sound musical, and changing levels did not offer the tonal shaping I wanted. The tiny buttons and legending made it difficult to set up, couldn't see what band I was grabbing unless I got right on top of it. That's why I keep the DEQ450 kicking around. My (limited) experience with EQ GUI's is that it's important to keep a "feedback catcher" EQ ready to quickly fix problems until they can be addressed in the GUI EQ. The DEQ450 is a dual 5-band parametric, each band sweeps 20-20k, and each EQ is stereo, so it can manage stereo mains and two monitor mixes. I leave it on bypass until needed. I suspect it still converts to digital and back anyway, but it's much cleaner than cheap analogs, and I'm faster with parametrics than graphics. Yes as I understand it the DEQ450 is A-D-A. I've never used one, but was interested once since it can be used in stereo link mode, a fairly uncommon feature. But my experience with the other digital EQs I mentioned, among others (Roland) put me off trying one. So how does the 450 sound? In my experience the best sound for the $, by far, has been Ashly. The MQX-2150 is exceptional if you want a 1RU unit. I think they can be found around $250 or so. The similar Rane and dbx didn't compare, for my needs. If you're going graphic, 1RU EQ's don't offer enough sweep, and 15 bands isn't enough for riding feedback effectively IMO. For that you can't really save space and retain adequate control, you're looking at the GQX-3102, a very good dual 31, but it's 4RU and only two channels. If you need more channels and need to save the space the DEQ850 is just about the only option, so it's a matter of how well you can master the interface. Accurate feedback control is for parametrics and needs to be done pre-show of course. And I'd never try to use the DEQ830 on feedback, it's simply too awkward to punch up the correct screen, push what you hope is the right band, turn the little knob to hear what happens... I've owned lots of 31-band, 15-band, and parametrics from 2 to 6 bands. The Ashly dual-15 just simply _sounds_ good. It has selectable +/- 6 dB or +/- 15 dB, plenty for my needs. Extreme frequency changes with its broader filters still stay musical, which is far better IMO than just getting discrete effects from many of the 31-bands I've used. I'd rather spend the money on better mics and speakers, and use digital EQ's. Your situation might very well be the exact opposite though. Agreed. That's what I did too, with hypercard mics and very directional wedges (SLS). My frequency control anymore is mostly for tone and the occasional bass resonance, I use Speck, K-T, and Pendulum now for that. Steve |
#22
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Steve Scott wrote:
Accurate feedback control is for parametrics and needs to be done pre-show of course. And I'd never try to use the DEQ830 on feedback, it's simply too awkward to punch up the correct screen, push what you hope is the right band, turn the little knob to hear what happens... The DEQ2496's built-in RTA can be helpful there. Find the spot, apply one of ten parametric bands, etc. -- ha |
#23
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Engnrguy wrote:
Has anyone had any experience with dbx's Drive Rack PA loudspeaker management system? It seem like a good mix of cost, quality company, and functionality. It is fully loaded with x-over, eq, comp/limit, and RTA. Opinions? Look in the alt.audio.pro.live-sound archives for discussion of these before you go there. -- ha |
#24
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Engnrguy wrote:
Again, Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions. Most of you have convinced me to take a look at getting a good RTA and a parametric eq setup. I usually tuning method is a graphic eq set by ear. I have received lots of compliments and never had any issues but I should probably get something a little more formal and accurate. I think an RTA is a very silly thing and really doesn't help you do the job at all. You can only measure at one point in the room at a time with it anyway, and once the room fills up everything changes. There is no way around using your ears. Has anyone had any experience with dbx's Drive Rack PA loudspeaker management system? It seem like a good mix of cost, quality company, and functionality. It is fully loaded with x-over, eq, comp/limit, and RTA. Opinions? Yes, it seems reasonable. The user interface is kind of crude, but it works, and it does nice tight notch filters which is most of what you want equalization for anyway. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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