Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%

Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.


Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of other
manufacturers? While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
k.net...

Bob Morein wrote:


From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%

Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.


Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of other
manufacturers? While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!


In the case of companies which actually have engineering departments, the
whole is more than the sum of the parts.
In this case, it is clearly less.
Your "business" is dropping untested Chinese drivers into an MDF box.
There is no added value.


Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles? Were you born without them, or did the movie biz do
this to you? I mean, I've drawn clear analogies between the audio biz
and the movie biz, as above, and you simply can't muster the manhood to
even address them. How did you become this emasculated?

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...
Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
k.net...

Bob Morein wrote:


From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of
speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%

Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.


Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of
other
manufacturers? While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!


In the case of companies which actually have engineering departments,
the
whole is more than the sum of the parts.
In this case, it is clearly less.
Your "business" is dropping untested Chinese drivers into an MDF box.
There is no added value.


Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles?

No, I'm saying your product is no good.

Bob Morein wrote:
From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a quantity
break.

Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

This is consistent with a DIYer price of $300 a pair.

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
k.net...

Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of
speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%

Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.

Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of
other
manufacturers?

Well, here are some speakers to consider:

http://www.abluesky.com/p/p3s2s1.html

A complete set, two satellites and a subwoofer list for $3295. Searching
around, I found a street price of more like $1500.

http://www.kraftmusic.com/catalog/au...nitorspeakers/

This is a sub/sat powered system including a passive volume control. Last
time I priced the tweeters the one-up price per unit was $58 per. My
recollection of the woofer pricing was something like $150 per. Oh, and
there are three power amps.

This is a complete system including subwoofer, all power amps and a separate
passive volume control (so-called passive preamp).

So the rough-estimate Madisound bill of materials would sum up something
like this:

2 tweeters @ 58 $116
3 woofers @ 150 $450
3 amps @ 200 $600

Total Madisound rough estimate parts cost: $1166
Your Mail Order price $1495

Go figure.

While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!

Irrelevant. This is allegedly an audio newsgroup.

In the case of companies which actually have engineering departments,
the
whole is more than the sum of the parts.

Search google for "Blue Sky Monitor Speakers". There are spec sheets,
well-written instruction manuals, listings on a number of web commerce
sites, and independent reviews by people whose claim to fame is other than
merely being an RAO troll like Weil.

In this case, it is clearly less.

Exactly.

Your "business" is dropping untested Chinese drivers into an MDF box.

That's all I see.

There is no added value.

In comparison to a serious business like "Blue Sky"...

Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles?

Singh, testicle size is irrelevant when you're getting shafted this badly!

Yesterday Singh you whined and whimpered about how badly the Christian is
nailing you, and a unbeliever comes along and shows you what happens when
punches aren't pulled and grace is offered.

Fact is Singh, you need to consider the story of the Good Samaritan:

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem
to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and
wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

This is you you on audio, Singh. The ironic part is that you don't know that
you've been stripped of your senses, kicked in the head and left half-witted
by high end snake oil mongers.

Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and
when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

This would be the various high end audio high priests around here who see
your pathetic state, despised by all but Middius, fired from your one true
audio job (selling cell phones but at least the name of the store had
something to do with audio) and left to rot in the bowels of Usenet.

Luke 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked
on him, and passed by on the other side.

This would be the various high end audio editors who won't ever review your
pathetic little speakers.

Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and
when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and
wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care
of him.

Now the Samaritan is me. Like Samaritans in the days of Christ, I'm
well-despised around here. However, I've been trying help you to get your
head back together for years. Had you listened to me you would have never
suffered complete and total humiliation in that speaker cable listening test
some years ago that everybody still talks about. Here I am trying to clue
you in on the basics of loudspeaker design, and you just despise me and try
to hurt me and my family more.

Luke 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and
gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever
thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Guess what Singh, when you have your next misadventure, God willing, I'll be
here again to try to help you pick up the pieces of your miserable life.

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three [3], thinkest thou, was neighbour unto
him that fell among the thieves?

Your problem Singh is that you don't realize how screwed in the head you
really are. You despise the people who are trying to help you. You look them
square in the eye and tell them how wrong they are and how much you despise
them. But, you're the one in the ditch, bleeding.

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto
him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I try. Good thing I have a day job.

The Gud Krooturdian spake thusly:

...you whined and whimpered...
...you've been stripped of your senses, kicked in the head and left
half-witted...
...your pathetic state, despised by all... left to rot in the bowels of
Usenet.
...you would have never suffered complete and total humiliation...
...pick up the pieces of your miserable life.
...you don't realize how screwed in the head you really are.
...you're the one in the ditch, bleeding.

You are truly a deluded whack job, Turdy. Funny stuff.

You remain numbingly stupid.

I remain,

The Shadow

--
"I proud of the other typos I found." A. Dimbulb Krooger

"Leon North" wrote in message

The Gud Krooturdian spake thusly:

...you whined and whimpered...
...you've been stripped of your senses, kicked in the head and left
half-witted...
...your pathetic state, despised by all... left to rot in the bowels
of Usenet.
...you would have never suffered complete and total humiliation...
...pick up the pieces of your miserable life.
...you don't realize how screwed in the head you really are.
...you're the one in the ditch, bleeding.

You are truly a deluded whack job, Turdy.

Look in the mirror when you say that, sockpuppet North.

Funny stuff.

I'm glad you got the joke, sockpuppet North.

You remain numbingly stupid.

You are the joke, sockpuppet North.

Turdy Kroogles builds a resume:

Good thing I have a day job.

Sane persons do not see twenty hours a day on usenet as a "day job".

LN

--
"The discussion is what I meant, not what I said.." A. Dimbulb Krooger

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

Bob Morein wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Bob Morein wrote:


From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,

In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of

speakers,

though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%

Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.


Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of

other

manufacturers? While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!


In the case of companies which actually have engineering departments,

the

whole is more than the sum of the parts.
In this case, it is clearly less.
Your "business" is dropping untested Chinese drivers into an MDF box.
There is no added value.


Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles?


No, I'm saying your product is no good.



I see, so you are trying to give me the same kind of rejection notices
your products get. Sad.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.


Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.



That's on the low side of what's typical in the industry. Thanks for
pointing out how good a value my speakers are, Joe--I owe you one.

The Gud Krooturdian suffers a short circuit:

"Leon North" wrote in message


You are truly a deluded whack job, Turdy.

Look in the mirror when you say that, sockpuppet North.

IKYABWAI

You remain numbingly stupid.

You are the joke, sockpuppet North.

And another IKYABWAI

Wassamatta, Turdy? Run out of game? Having a Kroo Melt? FIgures.

LN

--
"My first post on this topic was had some details wrong." A. Dimbulb
Krooger

Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...


Bob Morein wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Bob Morein wrote:


From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,

In single quantity:


Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each


Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of

speakers,

though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.


Cost of finished product: $1350.00


Percentage cost of drivers in final product: 8.01%


Which is immaterial, since Trotsky's voice will drown them out anyway.


Bob, don't you have the balls to compare them to the same ratio of

other

manufacturers?


Well, here are some speakers to consider:

http://www.abluesky.com/p/p3s2s1.html

A complete set, two satellites and a subwoofer list for $3295. Searching
around, I found a street price of more like $1500.

http://www.kraftmusic.com/catalog/au...nitorspeakers/

This is a sub/sat powered system including a passive volume control. Last
time I priced the tweeters the one-up price per unit was $58 per. My
recollection of the woofer pricing was something like $150 per. Oh, and
there are three power amps.

This is a complete system including subwoofer, all power amps and a
separate
passive volume control (so-called passive preamp).

So the rough-estimate Madisound bill of materials would sum up something
like this:

2 tweeters @ 58 $116
3 woofers @ 150 $450
3 amps @ 200 $600

Total Madisound rough estimate parts cost: $1166
Your Mail Order price $1495

Go figure.


I've never heard of those brands, Arny--did you pull them out of your
prodigious ass?





While you're at it, compare a movie's final cost to the
cost of the screenplay. That's pretty funny!


Irrelevant. This is allegedly an audio newsgroup.


That's not "irrelevant", Arny--it's only natural to draw parallels
between his business and mine. You've got your head up your prodigious
ass on this one.




In the case of companies which actually have engineering departments,

the

whole is more than the sum of the parts.


Search google for "Blue Sky Monitor Speakers". There are spec sheets,
well-written instruction manuals, listings on a number of web commerce
sites, and independent reviews by people whose claim to fame is other than
merely being an RAO troll like Weil.


I'm sure they are very good. There are many good speakers on the
market. None that I've heard that sound very similar to mine, though.
Do you have a point here?




In this case, it is clearly less.


Exactly.



Judging a book by it's cover, Krueger? That's not very Christian at all.





Your "business" is dropping untested Chinese drivers into an MDF box.


That's all I see.


You're hardly the target audience. You are a connoiseur of bad sound,
remember?




There is no added value.


In comparison to a serious business like "Blue Sky"...



Define "serious", Arny. This sounds like another belittling,
unChristian remark again.




Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles?


Singh, testicle size is irrelevant when you're getting shafted this badly!


Arny, all I'm doing is playing with a couple of losers that have the
mentality of school children. Is your memory that short, Kruegs? I'm
the one that beat you to a bloody pulp last time so badly that you could
no longer respond to me. Even now, all I have to do is mention the word
"Christian" and your responses dwindle to nothing. You've got problems,
Krueger--your "debating trade" skills have devolved to nothing.




Yesterday Singh you whined and whimpered about how badly the Christian is
nailing you, and a unbeliever comes along and shows you what happens when
punches aren't pulled and grace is offered.


That's not even close to the truth. In fact, the much abused word
"liar" is the only one applicable.



Fact is Singh, you need to consider the story of the Good Samaritan:

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from
Jerusalem
to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and
wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.


Which one is me, thief? Remember, thieves aren't Christians.




This is you you on audio, Singh. The ironic part is that you don't
know that
you've been stripped of your senses, kicked in the head and left
half-witted
by high end snake oil mongers.


You're not making sense. I thought it was you and Bob Morion that were
leaving me half dead. Thus, in Jesus' eyes, you and Bob are sinners and
blasphemers. You can't even understand your own story, Arny. Your
reading comprehension of the Bible is even worse than it is here on Usenet.




Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and
when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

This would be the various high end audio high priests around here who see
your pathetic state, despised by all but Middius, fired from your one true
audio job (selling cell phones but at least the name of the store had
something to do with audio) and left to rot in the bowels of Usenet.


Again, you don't seem to understand the parable. (That's a shock.) The
priest is a hypocrite, much like you're a hypocrite. But don't take my
word for it, Bob Morion will tell you the same thing.




Luke 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and
looked
on him, and passed by on the other side.

This would be the various high end audio editors who won't ever review
your
pathetic little speakers.


Krueger, you are one sick puppy. I used to think Middius was obsessed
with you and wouldn't move on. Now I see what's really happening: you
are totally nuts and have remained totally nuts, in a vile, vindicative,
and petty sort of way, in need of being beaten down at every turn. The
weird thing is you are using the Bible to illustrate your own hypocrisy
and pettiness, and you're too stupid to realize this. Ask Bob Morion.
Ask Dr. Wick.



Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he
was: and
when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and
wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and
took care
of him.

Now the Samaritan is me.


Okay, that made me laugh out loud. Are you intentionally trying to be
funny here?


Like Samaritans in the days of Christ, I'm
well-despised around here.



So were Satanists, in whose camp you fall.


However, I've been trying help you to get your
head back together for years. Had you listened to me you would have never
suffered complete and total humiliation in that speaker cable
listening test
some years ago that everybody still talks about. Here I am trying to clue
you in on the basics of loudspeaker design, and you just despise me
and try
to hurt me and my family more.


I'm not sure I understand your particular version of Christianity
(Satanism)--is humiliation an acceptable concept? Hypocrisy?



Luke 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and
gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever
thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Guess what Singh, when you have your next misadventure, God willing,
I'll be
here again to try to help you pick up the pieces of your miserable life.


You know, Arny, I'm starting to believe you. If you could give me $2000
to help me with my startup venture, I would look on you as a good
Samaritan, as opposed to a Satanist. You do realize that's what the
parable is saying, right?




Luke 10:36 Which now of these three [3], thinkest thou, was neighbour
unto
him that fell among the thieves?


Could say that again in English?



Your problem Singh is that you don't realize how screwed in the head you
really are. You despise the people who are trying to help you. You
look them
square in the eye and tell them how wrong they are and how much you
despise
them. But, you're the one in the ditch, bleeding.


No, you've made it clear to me. When you've sent me the money that
shows you to be a good Samaritan I will freely admit it.

The other alternative is for you to be a liar and hypocrite, which I
believe is the path you'll choose.



Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus
unto
him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I try. Good thing I have a day job.


Could you make it a cashier's check, please?

Bob Morein wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
link.net...

Bob Morein wrote:

[snip]

In comparison to a serious business like "Blue Sky"...


Let me get this straight: are you trying to tell us you literally don't
have any testicles?

Singh, testicle size is irrelevant when you're getting shafted this
badly!

Yesterday Singh you whined and whimpered about how badly the Christian is
nailing you, and a unbeliever comes along and shows you what happens when
punches aren't pulled and grace is offered.

Fact is Singh, you need to consider the story of the Good Samaritan:


Greg, Arny is right. While it's true my tribe never ate Christian babies,
I'm lusting after a Trotsky burger...
I eat cow almost every day, and I'm tired of it. The succulent Trotsky
flesh
has my mouth slathering.
Don't let me see your flesh crawl. It puckers my lips.


Bob, if you are trying to tell the group that you look on Arny as a good
Samaritan, this is your most laughable statement yet. Fact is, I'm a
veteran of these Usenet skirmishes, and your false declarations of
victory are rather commonplace. I've already beaten you down with
clearly drawn analogies to the movie business, but since you are lacking
testicles you don't seem to want to admit it.

But let's look at the bigger pictu where do people like you come
from? Did you have ****ty parents? What turned you into such an
underacheiver?

I realize you won't answer, since it takes balls to show some self
awareness. Your behavior is the equivalent of a child covering his ears
and shouting "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"

"Leon North" wrote in message

Turdy Kroogles builds a resume:

Good thing I have a day job.

Sane persons do not see twenty hours a day on usenet as a "day job".

So what did Middius say when you said this to him, sockpuppet North?

Turdy feints left:

"Leon North" wrote in message

Turdy Kroogles builds a resume:

Good thing I have a day job.

Sane persons do not see twenty hours a day on usenet as a "day job".

So what did Middius say when you said this to him, sockpuppet North?

?

Is this some sort of strawborg? A red herring? Your point, retard? The
last month at Google Groups shows you posting at least four times as
often as he has and on a twenty hour basis, daily. Do you have any clue
how stupid you are? Didn't think so. BTW, unlike you, he has a real day
job (and he can write far better than you).

You do realize that your "day job" has no retirement or other benefits,
right? How are you going to be a Gud Krooturdian without any pence to
distribute? Remedial third grade English would be a better way to spend
your wasted days.

You lose.

Again.

LN


--
"The discussion is what I meant, not what I said.." A. Dimbulb Krooger

trotsky wrote:
Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.


Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.




That's on the low side of what's typical in the industry. Thanks for
pointing out how good a value my speakers are, Joe--I owe you one.

Well, To be honest, your corssovers and cabinets per pair are probably
costing you $200.

So figure $300 per pair.

My original complaint was that while $300 seems a good deal to you,
the major plyers can get the items in such large quantity that their
price is closer to half that - About $150-$200, so if they take a $175
speaker(their cost) and mark it up, say, five times, they are selling
YOUR SPEAKER for $875.

Purely economics of scale.

Therefore, if you want to compete, you have to adjust your markup
to factor in your competition's cost to build the same thing.
That is, unless you can offer something they cannot, like a special
cabinet design, finish, another driver... SOmething to set you
truly apart.

ie:
$175*5=$875(their cost/markup)
$300*?=$875(your cost/markup)

That's the rub with being a small firm - you have to eat potential
profits to remain competetive with the major firms until you yourself
get up to their size.


P.S.(marketing advocate mode on)
If it was me, I'd ditch the current design you have and go with a
3-way. It may not sound much better, but people will probably pay
for a bookshelf sized 3-way speaker. I see very few these days.

Think of it as that gimmick you have to make yours different.
Maybe up the size of the speaker an inch or two in each dimmension
and add a 3-4 inch midrange. Gimmicks are good. Every speaker
designer needs one or else you end up being Energy - boxes with
drivers in them. Hopefully it makes the sound better, like NoRH's
speakers are, or do something unique like Mirage's omnipolars.

Athena makes a superb 3-way bookshelf(S3, IIRC). It's small and
sounds very nice - much better midrange than most 2-way speakers.
I'd buy a pair if I was making speakers and work until I had a
simmilar sounding pair. Pass on the savings as most people don't
want to spend extra money for it being modular.

Also, I'd do the oddball shaped port or use two ports or... The idea
is, again, offer them a perceived advantage or design difference.
Of course, you want the sound to be the same, just appear diffferent.

A perfect example is Ovation. They make nice acoustic-electric guitars.
Their plastic body models look and feel different and that allows them
to carve out a small niche. In reality, a Martin of Guild with good
pickups will sound better, but some people swear by the Ovations.

They needed a specific identifying feature and they found it.
Personally, I think plastic sucks for guitars, but from a marketing
standpoint, it's a good thing for them.

Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

This is consistent with a DIYer price of $300 a pair.


What about crossovers, wire, terminals, test equipment, tools, manuals,
packaging, a place to assemble the speakers, a place to store them once
assembled, grill cloth, advertising, etc. Some of those things may be minor,
but it's not like they come free either. Not to mention research and
development..... I think some major credibility would be gained by having
these speakers tested by a third party lab for frequency response on and off
axis, sensitivity, THD at various power levels, power handling, impedance
vs. frequency, etc, and see how they compare to commercial speakers in the
same price range, which are sold the same way. Axiom Audio might be a good
one to compare to.

As far as the cost of materials vs. price of products is concerned, I am
sure there are products on the market whose drivers and cabinets account for
less than 25% of the price of the final product. As an example, look at the
BOSE 601. Maybe not my favorite speaker, but they are obviously selling.

My personal opinion, is that at this price, a speaker system should have
state of the art measured performance, and exceptional subjective
performance. When something like the Tannoy Saturn S8 can be acquired
locally for around the same price, or even less, the bar is set extremely
high.

Max Holubitsky said:

My personal opinion, is that at this price, a speaker system should have
state of the art measured performance, and exceptional subjective
performance. When something like the Tannoy Saturn S8 can be acquired
locally for around the same price, or even less, the bar is set extremely
high.

You, like your fellow mass-market drum-beaters, are completely missing
the point of a boutique brand like TrotskySpeakersInc. I'd explain it,
but since it's been explained dozens of times before only to be
greeted by frissons of fearfulness and squawks of outrage, I'll forego
the explanation.

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:39:11 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

trotsky wrote:
Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.


Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.




That's on the low side of what's typical in the industry. Thanks for
pointing out how good a value my speakers are, Joe--I owe you one.

Well, To be honest, your corssovers and cabinets per pair are probably
costing you $200.

So figure $300 per pair.

My original complaint was that while $300 seems a good deal to you,
the major plyers can get the items in such large quantity that their
price is closer to half that - About $150-$200, so if they take a $175
speaker(their cost) and mark it up, say, five times, they are selling
YOUR SPEAKER for $875.

Purely economics of scale.

Therefore, if you want to compete, you have to adjust your markup
to factor in your competition's cost to build the same thing.
That is, unless you can offer something they cannot, like a special
cabinet design, finish, another driver... SOmething to set you
truly apart.

ie:
$175*5=$875(their cost/markup)
$300*?=$875(your cost/markup)

That's the rub with being a small firm - you have to eat potential
profits to remain competetive with the major firms until you yourself
get up to their size.


P.S.(marketing advocate mode on)
If it was me, I'd ditch the current design you have and go with a
3-way. It may not sound much better, but people will probably pay
for a bookshelf sized 3-way speaker. I see very few these days.

Think of it as that gimmick you have to make yours different.
Maybe up the size of the speaker an inch or two in each dimmension
and add a 3-4 inch midrange. Gimmicks are good. Every speaker
designer needs one or else you end up being Energy - boxes with
drivers in them. Hopefully it makes the sound better, like NoRH's
speakers are, or do something unique like Mirage's omnipolars.

Athena makes a superb 3-way bookshelf(S3, IIRC). It's small and
sounds very nice - much better midrange than most 2-way speakers.
I'd buy a pair if I was making speakers and work until I had a
simmilar sounding pair. Pass on the savings as most people don't
want to spend extra money for it being modular.

Also, I'd do the oddball shaped port or use two ports or... The idea
is, again, offer them a perceived advantage or design difference.
Of course, you want the sound to be the same, just appear diffferent.

A perfect example is Ovation. They make nice acoustic-electric guitars.
Their plastic body models look and feel different and that allows them
to carve out a small niche. In reality, a Martin of Guild with good
pickups will sound better, but some people swear by the Ovations.

They needed a specific identifying feature and they found it.
Personally, I think plastic sucks for guitars, but from a marketing
standpoint, it's a good thing for them.

You know very little about marketing *or* guitars, it seems. Ovations
have been out of favor now for years. You see very few of them these
days in comparison with Martin, Gibson, Taylor and Takamine,
especially on stage. Stage guitars have come a long way, especially
with the mic'ing and eq options now available. I can't remember the
last time I saw an Ovation on stage, and I've probably seen about a
hundred different ones just this year. People like Al Stewart, who
have used them in the past, have migrated to Taylor, which seems to be
the trendy live acoustic these days.

This whole post was just about useless - why am I responding to it?
Hell if *I* know...

Oh yeah, PS, look for my photo/s of Glenn Tilbrook to be accompanying
an article in an upcoming Taylor Guitars newsletter.

Consider these speakers:


http://www.abluesky.com/p/p3s2s1.html

Searching around, I found a street price of more like $1500.

http://www.kraftmusic.com/catalog/au...nitorspeakers/

This is a sub/sat powered system including a passive volume control. Last
time I priced the tweeters the one-up price per unit was $58 per. My
recollection of the woofer pricing was something like $150 per. Oh, and
there are three power amps.

This is a complete system including subwoofer, all power amps and a separate
passive volume control (so-called passive preamp).

So the rough-estimate Madisound bill of materials would sum up something
like this:

2 tweeters @ 58 $116
3 woofers @ 150 $450
3 amps @ 200 $600

Total Madisound rough estimate parts cost: $1166
Your Mail Order price $1495

Go figure.

I'm sure Madisound has to make a profit too, but at the same time, this looks
like a pretty cool system. I wonder if Madisound's margains vary according to
the product they are selling.

You, like your fellow mass-market drum-beaters, are completely missing
the point of a boutique brand like TrotskySpeakersInc. I'd explain it,
but since it's been explained dozens of times before only to be
greeted by frissons of fearfulness and squawks of outrage, I'll forego
the explanation.

Mass market drum beaters? What's mass market about spending $1350 on a stereo
pair of speakers? I would be willing to bet that is is only a very small
fraction of the entire population who spends that much money on speakers.
(although maybe more do in an audio newsgroup) Mass market is the mini system,
home theatre in a box, available at Best Buy type market.

If by mass market, you mean an established company which has become successful
enough to support itself after years of product development, and have decent
distribution, then perhaps I do support the mass market. I would certainly not
discriminate against a smaller start up type company, but its products must be
demonstrated to be superior, in some important way, on a level playing field.
If the new product is not clearly superior, I would prefer to fall back on the
support and reputation of an established company.

I fail to understand why simply stating that the credibility of a recently
established company's unheard product, would be increased reading by a
favourable third party test report, turns me into a "mass market drum beater"

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Bob Morein wrote:

From http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html,
In single quantity:

Model
W20RC-38-08 8" driver $26.60 each
YAG-20 ribbon tweeter $27.50 each

Multiply by two, since Greg is promising to deliver a pair of
speakers,
though I'm not sure I believe him.
Cost of drivers: $108.20, probably less than $100 if he's getting a
quantity
break.


Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.





That's on the low side of what's typical in the industry. Thanks for
pointing out how good a value my speakers are, Joe--I owe you one.


Well, To be honest, your corssovers and cabinets per pair are probably
costing you $200.


Impossible. A completely ignorant statement.



So figure $300 per pair.


Another ignorant statement. Mr. Zelniker already gave you the right
answer, and you post this crap? What is wrong with you? Are you merely
out for your daily troll?


snip

In article ,
"Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.

Cost of finished product: $1350.00

This is consistent with a DIYer price of $300 a pair.


What about crossovers, wire, terminals, test equipment, tools, manuals,
packaging, a place to assemble the speakers, a place to store them once
assembled, grill cloth, advertising, etc. Some of those things may be minor,
but it's not like they come free either. Not to mention research and
development.....

Shipping boxes! Not cheap.

Stephen

Max Holubitsky wrote:

Add in cabinets. $200 for the pair since he's not making them himself.

$300 for a pair. 4 times markup.


Cost of finished product: $1350.00

This is consistent with a DIYer price of $300 a pair.



What about crossovers, wire, terminals, test equipment, tools, manuals,
packaging, a place to assemble the speakers, a place to store them once
assembled, grill cloth, advertising, etc. Some of those things may be
minor,
but it's not like they come free either. Not to mention research and
development..... I think some major credibility would be gained by having
these speakers tested by a third party lab for frequency response on
and off
axis, sensitivity, THD at various power levels, power handling, impedance
vs. frequency, etc, and see how they compare to commercial speakers in the
same price range, which are sold the same way. Axiom Audio might be a good
one to compare to.

As far as the cost of materials vs. price of products is concerned, I am
sure there are products on the market whose drivers and cabinets
account for
less than 25% of the price of the final product. As an example, look
at the
BOSE 601. Maybe not my favorite speaker, but they are obviously selling.

My personal opinion, is that at this price, a speaker system should have
state of the art measured performance, and exceptional subjective
performance. When something like the Tannoy Saturn S8 can be acquired
locally for around the same price, or even less, the bar is set extremely
high.



Not as high as you might think. It depends how experienced a listener
you are. It's funny, because all this talk about manufacturing costs
belies what one of the biggest problems is: mass production doesn't
allow for a build quality that I personally find sonically acceptable.

dave weil wrote:

You know very little about marketing *or* guitars, it seems. Ovations
have been out of favor now for years.

I know that. I *DID* say that they are not as good as a decent Martin
or Guild with decent pickups, but they do sell enough to make a decent
profit because of their different way of doing things(ie - the botique
type asthetic difference). I also said that IMO, it was a bad choice to
make them out of plastic(resonates like crap for one), but, remember, I
was in "marketing advocate" mode.

I have no problem at all with Trotsky going the B&O type botique
speaker route. Nothing wrong with that. OTOH, that means he requires
a differece or gimmick that he can exploit to make it look or be
perceived as worth the difference in price.

Well, that would be my advice. Shoot, the Beatles used a gimmick or
different sound in most of their early recordings. Listen carefully.
There is always a odd instrument or catchy rhythm or something in
every single song subtly mixed into the background. Nothing wrong
with it either - it worked then and for Trotsky's speakers, it would
work now.

You see very few of them these
days in comparison with Martin, Gibson, Taylor and Takamine,
especially on stage.

Oh, I know this. And I said as much. My mother-in-law has a beautiful
1960's Guild that whomps on the latest Ovation I heard. My dream
guitar is a full body Martin I recently tried. But, at $800, um...
Yeah - that dream will have to wait a year or two. (grin)

OTOH, Ovations still sell well to the intermediate crowd, just like
Tortsky's speakers might. IF he finds that special feature or
niche that sets him apart. And, no, a ribbon tweeter won't be
enough of a change by itself, especially since most people find
them to be kind of ugly in a bookshelf speaker - where smaller visual
impact is usually preceived as better.

This did strike me as odd, actually. Small as possible cabinet and
design(a good thing in some situations) and a huge glaringly non
subtle ribbon tweeter up top. Kind of defeats the whole smaller
is better thing he seems to be going for.

Stage guitars have come a long way, especially
with the mic'ing and eq options now available. I can't remember the
last time I saw an Ovation on stage, and I've probably seen about a
hundred different ones just this year. People like Al Stewart, who
have used them in the past, have migrated to Taylor, which seems to be
the trendy live acoustic these days.

Yeah I noticed that, too. It seems to change every few years which
model is the "hot" thing.

Oh yeah, PS, look for my photo/s of Glenn Tilbrook to be accompanying
an article in an upcoming Taylor Guitars newsletter.

So what makes them different or special? Just curious. Better
pickups? Different shaped body? Or, are they just the "hot"
commodity now?

trotsky wrote:

Another ignorant statement. Mr. Zelniker already gave you the right
answer,

He gave us a cost for drivers. You yourself said you had to pay for
wire, cabinets(outsourced - no crime there since woodworking that many
cabinets would be insane), crossovers, posts/terminals, and so on.

My figure of $100 per speaker for the rest of the components is probably
not too far off. Not that that's cheap or anything. I've seen
$1000 speakers made out of a simple box of 1/8th inch MDF and glued
together with stuff that looks like Elmers Wood Glue. Yours do look
better made than that.

No problem with the site or design. I just think they are priced
too high to compete against the larger firms' offerings since they
have the ability to get the same or simmilar drivers for half your
cost.

So that leaves the simple fact that you need a gimmick or difference
to set yourself apart. Again, nothing wrong with that - most makers
do that. Maybe a better finish, or custom colors, or built-in surround
mounts or a different port configuration or add another speaker(3 way)
or a non-rectangular box or...

A perfect example is NoRH. Different cabinet. Cheap but adequate
drivers. Nice sound for the price.

***
From a marketing standpoint, I'd look into doing something like
a trapezoidal type box. Like sound dynamics. Basically a
Paradigm type design, but they get a premium because of the
non-rectangular design. This would be easy to accomplish and
put you in a niche with a few dozen competitors.

Well, that would be the easiest fix that I could think of to set
yourself apart. Maybe contour the port a bit as well(for
asthetics mostly) - simple things like that.

dave weil wrote:
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:16:25 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Oh yeah, PS, look for my photo/s of Glenn Tilbrook to be accompanying
an article in an upcoming Taylor Guitars newsletter.

So what makes them different or special? Just curious. Better
pickups? Different shaped body? Or, are they just the "hot"
commodity now?


Very well made and extremely playable. Good stage guitars. Sound
somewhere between a Gibson and Martin (bright but still full "bass" -
they cut through as well as a Martin but still have that "Gibson"
presence as well). Pretty. Hip. Good artists relations. Highly
visible.

All of the above.

Neat. I'll have to take a look at them. What do they generally
go for?

Max Holubitsky a écrit :
You, like your fellow mass-market drum-beaters, are completely missing
the point of a boutique brand like TrotskySpeakersInc. I'd explain it,
but since it's been explained dozens of times before only to be
greeted by frissons of fearfulness and squawks of outrage, I'll forego
the explanation.


Mass market drum beaters? What's mass market about spending $1350 on a stereo
pair of speakers? I would be willing to bet that is is only a very small
fraction of the entire population who spends that much money on speakers.
(although maybe more do in an audio newsgroup) Mass market is the mini system,
home theatre in a box, available at Best Buy type market.

If by mass market, you mean an established company which has become successful
enough to support itself after years of product development, and have decent
distribution, then perhaps I do support the mass market. I would certainly not
discriminate against a smaller start up type company, but its products must be
demonstrated to be superior, in some important way, on a level playing field.
If the new product is not clearly superior, I would prefer to fall back on the
support and reputation of an established company.

I fail to understand why simply stating that the credibility of a recently
established company's unheard product, would be increased reading by a
favourable third party test report, turns me into a "mass market drum beater"


I think he just wants to make a fool of you !
this is his only pleasure in life "Do what I say but not what I do".

He's surely something as sad as a Nero's reincarnation with a major
physical handicap.
What a karma !

Not as high as you might think. It depends how experienced a listener
you are. It's funny, because all this talk about manufacturing costs
belies what one of the biggest problems is: mass production doesn't
allow for a build quality that I personally find sonically acceptable.

Interesting response. I'm curious as to what sonic advantages may be provided by
cottage industry manufacturing. Careful matching of crossover components and
drivers comes to mind, but this may not be it? The choice to use ribbon drivers
is certainly neat.

"Max Holubitsky" wrote in message

Consider these speakers:


http://www.abluesky.com/p/p3s2s1.html


So the rough-estimate Madisound bill of materials would sum up
something like this:

2 tweeters @ 58 $116
3 woofers @ 150 $450
3 amps @ 200 $600

Total Madisound rough estimate parts cost: $1166
Your Mail Order price $1495

Go figure.

I'm sure Madisound has to make a profit too, but at the same time,
this looks like a pretty cool system.

I think so, too. Technically speaking, it is very interesting.

I wonder if Madisound's
margains vary according to the product they are selling.

I'm sure they do, as is normal in commerce.

There are major discounts on drivers when bought in large volumes. There's a
quote from Ken Kantor in the RAO archives, where he says that for $20 each
in large volumes, he could have virtually any 6.5 inch driver known to man.

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:02:01 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

George, there are botique manufacturers who aren't gyp artists.

Bob, it's not only directors who say 'cut'. See a good surgeon and
tell him that your desire is for no other life of your kind to walk
this planet. Would you do that for me?

--
Glowy Piddlette

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:36:18 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:16:25 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Oh yeah, PS, look for my photo/s of Glenn Tilbrook to be accompanying
an article in an upcoming Taylor Guitars newsletter.

So what makes them different or special? Just curious. Better
pickups? Different shaped body? Or, are they just the "hot"
commodity now?


Very well made and extremely playable. Good stage guitars. Sound
somewhere between a Gibson and Martin (bright but still full "bass" -
they cut through as well as a Martin but still have that "Gibson"
presence as well). Pretty. Hip. Good artists relations. Highly
visible.

All of the above.

Neat. I'll have to take a look at them. What do they generally
go for?

They're priced similar to Martin and Gibson, without the really
insanely priced models that the two of them offer (plus, I don't think
that Taylor sells any laminated sub $1000 guitars like the two of them
have started selling in recent years. They start at about a grand and
go up to about $7k or so (they might have some special order higher
dollar guitars).

They are really lively-sounding guitars (lively without sounding
brittle or harsh). Well balanced.